Well Thoth, This is a great example and I’m gonna talk about the rebuilding of Europe that the American historians would like us to believe. First of all some facts; The United-States spent Billions of dollars in rebuilding Europe through the Marshall Plan. Due to the adopted Truman Doctrine, the goal of the US was to stop the spread of communism to the rest of Europe past the Iron curtain. Now Americans would argue that the US government took pity in the desolate situation of the devastated European countries and decided to issue billions of dollars out of pure humanity. However facts of the treaty and the current political situation would indicate otherwise. Americans tend to forget or mention that in the Marshall plan, there was a clause. Most of the money could ONLY be spent on US produced goods (i.e.machinery and grain). So you understand most of the so called aid-money came right back to the US economy, sustaining it and taking it to new heights. Also it had the goal of creating a dependency among European countries for US goods. The US was aware that trade with the European countries and Japan was vital to their own economy and it made sense for them to rebuild these axis nations you talk about. Also we cannot undermind their fear of communism and the return of a Japanese empire and so a military presence in those regions was vital. This in short is what I believe were the true motivation of the US in this manner. If you would like more detail, I could provide them.

Thoth Spoken like a true brainwashed American, I have no desire or time to respond to all the points you have tried to argue in this response, however I will say this: America has always acted and will always act selfishly and not for the benefit of world peace or the betterment of human lives in other nations. You have tried to argue that the US helped the destroyed nations of WW2 out of desire to create a peaceful world, however there are many facts that would prove otherwise. Now you can bring up any historical fact about US history or Israeli for that matter and I will be more than happy to show you your nations greed and capitalistic ways in all of those conflicts.

Well Said Majdi, Some people just don't understand that peace, stability and justice in their respective regions, comes before the mear MENTIONING of Unity. Baashi saids the timing is of secondary concern, but I say its not even a concern as things stand right now. We have people asking for peace and coming empty handed as they fail to provide that very peace and unity whitin their populations and regions. In other words, its like building a Building. Instead of starting from the ground up, Most pro-Unity people are arguing that we should start from the top down. Surely any logical person would understand the irationality in this argument.

Interesting question you bring Miskin, and also a very complex question. What is the best path for Somali people? If there was an easy answer there wouldn’t be so many problems today. Islam however is the cure to all issues and can overcome any obstacles. However we must beware those who would like to use it as a means of manipulation to advance a political objective (i.e. Nationhood e.g.Somalia). That being said, the question of Islam bringing together those who believe in this common faith is much broader then we would like it to be. Some Somalis argue for unity in the name of Islam, but what really is Islamic Unity? I would say it would have to encompass all the peoples that believe in this faith and not just the Somalis. Before the arrival of the prophet (pbuh) the arabs where nothing more then a feuding tribal nation very much like Somalis today, but Islam cured that problem. More importantly though, It went beyond arab unity but an Islamic unity formed of many different races. Good example would be of Bilaal the Abyssinian slave who was freed by the will of ALLAH through the arrival of Islam. Therefore Islam cured more than just tribal issues but all injustices plaguing any race. Case point of all of this being that if we are to come together as muslims, it should not be just the Somali nation coming together but a broader Islamic nation, with borders extending from Morroco to Malaysia and from Bosnia to Tanzania. It could be argued that Somalis coming together as an Islamic nation, would be a form of tribalism or “ethnicisme” if you will. Why differentiate Somali muslims from Pakistanis, Bosnians, Arabs etc…? Do we not all believe in the same God? Are we not equal in his eyes? Wouldn’t the true definition of an Islamic nation encompass all these believers? The odd thing about philosophical discussions is that the more we answer questions, the more questions derive from that same answer. In other words, the more answers you get the more questions you have. To answer your question, NO tribalisme is not the answer and I also don’t agree with your tribaliste characterization of Somaliland. However I believe STATEHOOD and those who can achieve statehood are heading in the right direction. That is the Short term answer to the Somali problems. Let us worry about Somali unity when the time is appropriate and even further in the future Islamic Unity in its due time inshallah. As for Democracy and its compatibility with Islam, that is a discussion for another day……

Haruun sxb was goin down in T.dot for the 18th?

Najmo I couldn't agree more with you about your views on Africans and Somalis. Some of us definitely believe in this so-called "identity crisis" created by some of the ignorance in our own culture. Truth of the matter is Somali's are Africans and despite our diversified ethnic history, we have more commonalities with the african ppl's (arab or otherwise) then any others on this planet. This inability among some of us to call ourselves African, as been created by some of the ignorance in somali culture. Some of it also probably has to do with the western cultur making Africa look like a pitiful continent and africans a pitiful peoples. So naturally some somalis would like to distance themselves from these associations. Many times I've been approached by other black africans about this partern they seem to observe amongst somalis, all I can tell them in return is that obviously not all Somalis deny their african identity and I for one stand proud.

Loool....specially at the nigerians being infesting cocroaches....lol You make a very good point also about the ghaneans being proud of their political history. They sure like to brag about their weak minded UN secreatary general Kofi Anan.

Libaax-sankataabtee makes a very good point. Hadraawi is one man, intellectual or otherwise he doesn't speak for the entire population. An educated guess would assume most of the people do not share this point of view on display. Sami-girl inadeer do not allow the pro-unity argument to frustrate you. I've read some of your previous post and you write very intelligibly. As for Xasan Nasrallah ****************EDITED************* [ April 30, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]

Same arguments over and over again!!?? Seems like most of the pro-unity members of this thread are always bringing up the same arguments time and again. Using their false prejudices about Somaliland as a means to prove its illegitimacy. Baashi saids: “case: According to International rules ethnic/tribe can not secede...just heck of it or because they can.” Like its been said many times before, Somaliland is a multi-ethnic or tribal nation therefore your argument is baseless. You also mentioned : “running from Somalia and its problems is not a solution but a denial. One should be couragous enough to face problems rationally and deal with it.” Your damn right!! we are running from YOUR problems, its not really our problems so why should we be held back? And what denial are you talking about? We have solved our problems it is the rest who need to worry about their problems and who are in denial about their reality. What is rational about asking a people who have achieved peace and stability to wait on others who cannot do the same? Is it really irrational for us to pursue our own interest? I’ll say this once again. You people just don’t understand the fact that self-determination is more important to us then anything, and it is also in our best interest. It’s not because we can’t forget the past, but because we refuse to make the same mistakes. The biggest of them being that we gave up our Self-Determination and put it the hands of others with almost none or very little decision making power. Those days are done and will NEVER COME BACK (inshallah). It would be over our dead bodies. If the people of Borame want Unity, so be it. What does it have to do with Somaliland? Is what is good for a part, good for the whole? Obviously not. For the sake of decent argument I’m going to bring a Plausible scenario for Unification. (but don’t mistake me, this scenario is highly unlikely due to realities of today and Should not be misinterpreted as a possible plan for today’s reality) Say the rest of Somalia comes to respect the right to self-determination of Somaliland (highly unlikely, but will happen one way or the other), then Somalia has relative peace and its own government for about a decade like Somaliland. We could then possibly discuss how to better improve relations between our two governments and peoples (This is a big “if”). Until then it is UNREALISTIC and IRATIONAL for you people to talk about Somaliland reunifying with a country that is still at war with itself

ppl ppl, Don't y'all know sleep deprevasion causes brain cells to freeze????......lol...naw I'm playin. Good luck to y'all though, I'm glad to see so many nomads gettin ahead. MALAIKA, sup for May 18 anyway? cause thats what I wanna know. Neva done anything for may 18 before but I'm hoping this year be different.

First of all, Gargyaqaan you claim I am one who argues for the sake of argument, and yet you’re the one I see constantly commenting on the secession of Somaliland in the hopes of attracting argument. Secondly you asked yourself if I read your postings, which I did and understood clearly, but unfortunately I cannot say the same for your understanding of mine. The problem is you come with weak arguments, and you state and re-state the obvious. I will try once again to be clear, although I don’t enjoy repeating myself I will break it down for you as needed. Obviously there is a Somali nation (nation=a people that share a common culture, heritage and language). My point was that before independence in 1960, there was no political entity known as a Somali Nation-State (Political unit of a Nation) and hence those who argue that Somaliland is breaking the “Somali Unity” have no basis for their argument. Historically the Somali nation and its 5 regions was never united so how can you accuse a people of breaking a unity that was never there to begin with? Therefore you can say we were a bunch of wandering nomads with no sense of statehood. As for the short life of the nation-state of Somalia, it was a failure and any reasonable person would admit it. You can use all the lamus terms such as “it was hijacked by a dictator” to justify the failure of the state, but the fact remains it was no less a failure. By the way, I never said that Somalia didn’t exist, I don’t know where your getting that from and you can go back and quote me if you like. If all I have said above doesn’t prove this point to you then your really not comprehending what I’m talking about. The fact that Somaliland is a former british protectorate is hardly the reason for the nation’s legitimacy. That is only you narrow outlook on things. As for your suggestion that Somaliland could be plagued by the same problems that occurred with the old nation(i.e.tribalisme), you are definitely right about that. But the very existence of this state is a testimony to the willingness of all of its diverse clans to co-exist in peace. These matters are far from being solved and there is still much work to be done as our democracy is still in its infant stages. Yet I can proudly say our parliamentary representation could even put the US government to shame. You say “Differentiate between Bare and the Somali people” and I will tell you that obviously my quarrel is not with the Somali people as I am one of them, but those who oppose the right to self-determination of my Nation-State. I think this problem is at the heart of the issue. What the rest of Somalis have to understand is that Somalilanders will never listen or even consider arguments of unity so long as their right to self-determination is not recognized and respected by the rest. I believe the real reasons people oppose Somaliland are not as noble as the classic somali Unity argument. I will leave it up to the pro-unity supporters to give other reasons as I really have come to be cynical of this ladder argument. Garyaqaan you say we are nothing without you, and that is not true. Somaliland can succeed without the rest, has succeeded without the rest and will continue to do so. Truth of the matter is we don’t need you and you don’t need us. From my point of view this has nothing to do with tribalism has I am not tribalist, however I am extremely nationalist. I’ll leave it to you to understand the difference between the two. To the Somalilanders, As May 18 approaches, I sincerely feel that we should remember all the lives lost during the Somali civil war. We as landers should also remember those who sacrified their lives for us to enjoy the peace and freedom we have today. On a lighter note: What are you plans for may 18? What’s happening in Canada for it? I’d appreciate if y’all could share that with me. Salaam

To all who oppose the independence, 1-Garqayaan’s historical facts You say we were never unified as a country before independence. Shouldn’t that tell you something? In the history of the entire Somali people, we were only unified once and for 28 yrs of dictatorship. The country was a failure all around. The people who are nostalgic about the good old Bare days, is those who benefited from their close ethnic association with the dictator. You say Somaliland has a colonial connotation, but last I checked so did the word “Somalia” itself (Italian roots). You say the English used Somaliland as a trade root, but so what? You bring up meaningless historical facts. The European metropoles controlled and ruled the globe. They exploited other nations to benefit themselves, and they also determined the geopolitical landscape of many modern countries today. Including Iraq, Kuweit, USA, Canada, China and Hong kong….etc…there was almost no Country that can claim they escaped the effects of colonisation by the former European powers. You make the argument that NO one is disputing the fact the people of Waqoyii galbed were oppressed and massacred by the Bare regime, yet I notice a lot of southerners who claim it never even took place, but this point is sort of irrelevant. I say that because I, for one am tired of my fellow Somalilanders complaining to outsiders about our past miseries and expecting compassion in return. You bring up the point of if Somaliland where to gain independence, then should every faction who was wronged claim their own territory? Once again your allowing your prejudice on Somaliland come into play as if it were a minor peace of land belonging to One clan. So I’m gonna state the obvious and let you know Somaliland constitutes about 1/3 of the former Somalia and is a multi-clan nation. So in conclusion to you: If Somalis were never united in their history with the exception of a mear 28 yr period that lead to civil war, tell me what historical argument can you present for Unification? 2-Bari Nomad’s pointless arguments “ Britain is still holding on to N.Ireland/Gibralter/Falklan Islands/etc. Russia and Chechnya, China and Taiwan(still not recognized after 50 years!), India/PK and Kashmir, SriLanka and Tamil Tigers. I could go on and on forever” And this relates to the Somali situation how? The conflict of northern Ireland is one of religion (catholic vs. Protestant), China and Taiwan is political ideology (Communism vs. Capitalism), India and Pakistan is also religious in the disputed region of Kashmir (Hinduism vs. Islam) and as for Sri lanka, the government finally coincided to recognizing the Tamel Tigers. Anyway, none of this can relate to the complex conflict of the Somali people. You also said Eritrea was ALLOWED to gain independence and that is false. They had many wars with Ethiopia. 3-To all the Somalilanders Lets worry about the internal affairs of our Nation people. Let us settle the problems being faced by Somaliland, political or otherwise. Some of the people in this forum bring up a good point about Sool and parts of Sanaag. We should figure a way to bridge the differences those populations have with the rest in order for them to feel part of the nation. More importantly we should worry about infrastructures issues, such as building a diversified economy, improving public services (i.e. health care) and building a strong national defence. My bretren, do not worry so much about recognition. When it is apparent that we are an economically viable nation, we have secured borders (free from threats of neighboring countries etc…) and basically the building blocks for a nation-state. Then the UN will have no choice but to give us our independence. Most importantly though, do not look for approval for our sovereignty from the rest of Somalis, it is a pointless argument clouded by hate, old stereotypes and jealousy. Nationhood starts from the hearts of its people, hence when people say “are you from Somalia?” You should respond “no I’m from Somaliland”. Little things like this that you keep in your hearts and minds will make a difference. When we start acting like a nation, then we shall be treated like one. May Allah bless our Country and bring peace to all Somalis.

I for one would have liked to see Siilanyo president, however not at the cost of our peace and stability in somaliland. If there was alleged corruption in Udub pulling out those last minute votes it should be looked into. However if we find that Udub has won this election fairly, then we should put our differences aside and rally around our new government. Its not like Kulmiye is going anywhere, they have prooven in this election they are real contenders for power. They just accept their role as the official opposition.

Libaax, Sxb Why can't you accept that Udub has won?, is it because you were supporting Kulmiye? or maybe its the grudge you hold about Ciigaal. Whatever it is, we need to go forward from here and accept Udub as the winner. It is not a sad day for Somaliland because regardless of the outcome, we have held free election and that alone is a great achievement.

This topic has been debated long enough, I'll add this much though: 1-How can you compare Siad's army against SNM? It's like comparing the palestinian mujahids and the israeli army. One is fighting with such heavy weaponry as A1-M1 tanks, F-16 and Apachies and the other a few AK's and Plenty of GOD given rocks 2-Horn d'Afrique: you claim that SNM would be right wing?...lol..boy you need some lessons on politics. Right Wing is usually reserved for conservatives, people who wanna keep things the way they are or were. So if anybody would be right wing is the ppl promoting somali weyne. 3-Xasan: you claim this topic is personnal to you, well my family is from Gabiley and I take this matter very seriously trust me. 4-Lastly to all my fellow LANDERS. We need to stop expecting pitty from these ppl, we've licked our wounds and got back up long ago. We have our independant nation and it is here to stay forever. So lets focus on our affairs and the needs of our own ppl and lets let these other somalis be. We don't need their recognition, pity or anything else.......

.....and they still ask why Somaliland gained independence

Rageh Omar has too much class too work for either a Zionist station like CNN or a consevative christian station such as Fox News. Don't put this man's reputation to shame.