Jidaawy You have explained very thoroughly the situation in Mogadishu (1993) in the hopes that Thoth would overcome his own prejudice. Unfortunately he has decided to over simplify the argument into a “killed or be killed” scenario. Nevertheless I applaud your efforts. Thoth I sincerely hope you can take some new perspectives from these postings exchanged between You, Jidaawy, shujui and I. That is the whole point of these forums, so we can exchange each other points of view. We can all benefit from one another in one shape or form, and certainly your experience as a Marine might bring a somewhat unique perspective to this argument. However your views were nothing I hadn’t heard from American government and media and therefore were not “new”. On the other hand you can say that the information we are sharing with you are unique in their own perspective because you will certainly not hear them on CNN, although they are no so unique in the rest of the world but more widespread. I might respect you as an individual, but respecting your views is another thing. I hope that you and your fellow Americans learn to question the over-simplified propaganda that is often feed to you by your own government concerning matters of foreign affairs.

Samakab when you say Jaale iigaal, are you talking about Ciigaal former president of Somaliland? and if so, what atrocities comparable to siyaad Barre did he commit?

First of all it was never my intention to compare dictators, I was only reacting to a comparison made by Samakab. When I talked about the town of Halabja, I didn’t get my info from any sources and estimated less than quoted by Bari-Nomad and was probably mistaken. My real intentions however were not to compare the suffering of two muslim peoples. A dictator is a dictator, and whether he goes by the name of Siyaad Barre or Saddam Hussein, there is no need to compare atrocities. However with that being said I have to explain why I gave the Iraqis the benefit of the doubt until about a week ago. It was well known throughout the world that Saddam Hussein was commiting many atrocities across Iraq, but to what extent? We certaintly couldn’t not know exactly. The western governments, particularly the US and Britain where manipulating information about weapons and atrocities in order to best serve their invasion plans. So therefore whatever information came out of their mouths could not be trusted. This week though, a more trust worthy organisation (International Red Cross) has begun to document the graves and we can expect some real figures in the near future. But coming to the subject, I don’t wanna get into a numbers game and comparing one dictator to another. Hussein and Barre were both brutal dictators who oppressed minorities within there respective countries. Now, Bari Nomad You can assume whatever you like about my “political aspirations”, but truth remains that you know almost nothing about them. But I’ll tell you what I have observed from some of your previous post. You’re the one who tends to downplay other peoples suffering to justify your own points of view (i.e.unification). In all the arguments I have made for my own views on politics, not ONCE did I resort to the suffering of my people as a basis to justify my political stance.

Horn Afrique, I asked Toth to give me an example in history where americans have aided another nation out of their pure desire to spread "peace, freedom and Prosperity". He choose to mention the "axes countries of WW2" and thats where the Marshall Plan comes in.

loool.....Ameenah I'm here the cat too. Sup with this???!!!!!

hmmmm...I just hope Riyaale gets off his lazy a** and does something useful for the country.

Samakab, You are free to express whatever view point you have, whether or not people here agree with them. Secondly though, I don't jump to conclusions about people based on their nickname and avitar. On the contrary, I react only to their post. However, given your avitar, I find it ironic you say this: From your words I presume you have no love for him, well guess what neither do I. As for you mentioning of Saddam Hussein and Idi Amin Dada. I have to say that Hussein for one comes no where close to the amount of atrocities commited by Barre. I am talking only numbers here. Hussein's biggest atrocity was the gasing of a kurdish village on the border of Iran which was probably less then 2000 people. As for Idi Amin brutal as he was, I don't know exactly how many of his own he killed, but what I know is that he commited criminal acts against alot of foreigners specialy Indians with the pretext that he was gonna put "Africa back in the hands of Africans", and those where historically his most reprehensible acts. As for you original question, I don't see one leader who can emerge and be accepted across all somali territories. Actually the original dilemma would be that there is no Somalia at the moment. Now if you wanna take Somaliland out of the equations and rename the rest Somalia, then maybe within a decade in would be time to choose a leader for the new country. But if people keep persisting on keeping Somaliland in the equation, then I have a feeling this will definitely last more than a decade. I feel if there is any hope of peace we have got to learn to respect each others right to self-determination. The lack of respect showed by the so-called TNG in the past towards Somaliland is an example of the lack of respect and understanding in somali politics. So Samakab sxb if you have an idea on how to solve the complex political problems of the somali people, I for one am open to all new ideas. But in your plan makes sure you included the "how" of it, if you know what I mean. Often people think they have a simple solution to this complex problem, and they have no appreciation for the complexity of the problems at hand.

Naw man.... 6ers are here to stay. Ya heard.....

So from your post, I presume "Mr.Barre" was a "worthy" leader? Ironic you mention those names, as I see it, Barre was responsible for more atrocities then all of them combined.

I don't like L.A, but they probably gonna win again. NUMBER 1 reason being Chris Webber's injury. Hope the 6ers make it out the East though.

quite the prejudice mind set you seem to have OG, you put the Nick and Avitar of a nomad before their posts.

Ruba, in your post you’ve just expressed exactly what I was asking myself about the original post. Beyond stating some knowledge, thought control forgot to mention his own view on this hypothetical question……and by the way is it a hypothetical question? Or are their specific ENDS and MEANS that are being referred? p.s. I like that quote from your english teach ruba

I think “beauty”(physical beauty) and “brains”(intelligence) are just two parts of a whole we call persona or personality. Some other parts might be sense of humour, morality, dignity etc….But more importantly, Personality is or should be what matters the most. This chemistry we often like to refer to, is neither exclusively due to “brains” or “beauty”, but rather it is created by an entire persona. For example: two “brainy” people might not find each other attractive and two “beautiful” people might not be attracted to one another. Case point being that personal chemistry between people is most important above all else.

Toth, I see you have done some reading on the Marshall Plan, and yet you still fail to comprehend its objective. First of all I said the main point of the Plan was to keep communism at bay. In order to achieve this goal, the US had to bring about its economic influence upon most critically the Western European Countries. Now imagine they could spread that same influence to the Iron Curtain? You can certainly see that this would lead to instantaneous collapse of Communism and would probably isolate Russia unless they decided to follow suit, and give in to Capitalism. Truman had no intentions of given real aid to Russia or the Iron curtain for that matter. He knew Stalin was going to refuse the offer. Now it is typically American to claim any success stories for themselves even though they had very little if anything at all to do with it. I refer to your assuming that because of this so-called US aid in WW2, the European countries on your link owe their success to the US. Those nations have existed and thrived long before the US was even born, and they continued in their tradition after WW2. Even the Economics treaties of the E-U introduced by France had a lot more to do with those countries success then the false and arrogant American ideals your bring about. Nowadays every time I turn on American T.V and they are discussing whether to invade another country or not (i.e.Afghanistan, Iraq), the pro-attack speakers always refer to “America rebuilding Germany and Japan” as laughable as this argument might be, they still take credit for the worlds 2nd and 3rd largest economies. If medals were being offered for this field, America would demand gold, silver and bronze…lol. Now you say I use propaganda when I’m simply stating facts, and yet you fail to see the real propaganda coming out of Americans mouths everyday.

Wow Instinct Poet, That is very well said. If every somali could reason like you, there wouldn't be so much hate. Much respect to you brotha, because you analysed the current political situation among the Somali peoples and came to your own conclusion.

Nice article Shujui, I am still waiting for THOTH's reply, I think he might be doing some profound reading on The Truman Doctrine and The Marshall Plan..lol. Anyway I wouldn't mind seing his reaction to my reply of his own selected topic, as predictable as it might be.

Ex-Dane I agree with you 100. If Ali really believed that history is his witness like he saids, he would know that every nation and every ethnicity in this world is comprised of other ethnicities. Sure there are some groups of people that have experienced more ethnic diversity in their history, but there are many such peoples in this world and Somalis are far from being the only ones. I also find it sad you compare us to Jews, maybe you would like to elaborate more on that part Ali.

I missed this interesting post by Libaax, I have to say the biggest fish that isn't directly on that list is TED TURNER, creator/owner of CNN,TBS,TNT and the Atlanta Braves among other business. Also the jewish influence and control extends beyond the media business, it also includes Universities and financial institutions among many others. thanks for the detailed article LIBAAX

Good point Ruba, I hope many of us share your chain of thought

Well Baashi, I’ve read your previous reply and I it was obvious to me that you either like to ignore my ideas or more likely, you simply do not understand what I’m talking about. When you failed to comprehend the idea of “Building blocks” that I was presenting to you, you decided to come up with your own interpretation of what I said. Putting words in my mouth and using old prejudices are the methods you’re using to make your own arguments. But what is the point of trying to respond to your arguments that are suppose to be a response to my own, except they really are a response to your own interpretation. Do you see where I’m going with this? I am all for logical debates, but first there must be some understanding of each other’s points of view. That is why I never bothered to respond. Now you say “Lander is unsuccessfully trying to make his case”. Granted that you are the judge of your OWN presumed debate with me. Would you agree with me that you would first have to understand my so called “case” before you jump to your own conclusions?

Both interesting articles, The article on Somaliland speaks volumes about the character of our people. I hope we can continue in the path of improving and strengthening our nation. We need no recognition from pitiful governments such as Egypt and Saudi-Arabia who are slaves to will of the Americans. In my eyes we are self-determinant and the only approval we need is that of our masses. The biggest fear I have in the future is of the US and their greed for oil. This “hyper-puissance” as the French would say can grant us all the needed international recognition with the lifting of their small finger. You can bet their puppet governments (i.e. Egypt , Saudi Arabia) would fall in line afterwards, just like the rest of the weakling African states. So when people make the argument that we are not recognized by these ladder nations, I start to….lol…and lol…some more. Saudi Arabia a nation built on Bedouin culture and ruled by one of the biggest disgraces to the history of Islamic nations (King Fahd). Egypt, with a president who’s been nicknamed “La Vache Qui rit” or “The smiling Cow” by his own people for his submission to the Americans and his treachery to the cause of muslim people world wide (Hosni Mubarak). Are these the people we expect to stand by our side?……ha ha ha..gimme a break. As far as I’m concerned they are close to irrelevancy when it comes to gaining international recognition. But back to my point about the US. I’m afraid that they might make some very tempting offers to us with minimal effort on their side, in exchange for the exploitation of our nations resources. We do not want to become another Saudi Arabia and this poses great concern. HornAfrique I honestly have to say I admire your willingness to try and bring about Somali Unity through the introduction of a perceived common threat. This is would be a noble cause if you were not politically motivated in contradicting Gediid’s pro-secessionist views. With that being said, need I remind you the people of Somaliland have the most engaged history of conflict with Ethiopia. Our ancestors fought many times with the Amhari Christian Empire including the battles that lead to the occupation and near destruction of that empire lead by Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al Ghazi in the 1500’s. Do not think for a second we are unaware of the intentions of Ethiopia, however we should still maintain our strategic economic alliance with them. They need a port because they’ve been land locked by Eritrea and we need trade because our so called muslim brothers have put trade embargoes on us (Saudi Arabia). If you were sincere in your hopes of challenging the Ethiopian threats, you should find a realistic way of bringing about commonalities amongst all Somali peoples. By opposing the independence and sovereignty of Somaliland, you and most other Somalis make it hard for us to find common ground in order to pin our interest and present a united front where the Habashis are concerned. Until the rest of Somalis find some charismatic leadership amongst themselves, Somaliland will continue to pursue its own interest.

Ameenah, Vey well put. I couldn't agree more with you sis. Specially your mentioning of democracy being compatible with Islamic law.

Sami good point about Rome not being built overnight. If we analyse history, there are many nation that took decades to find independence for example: Bosnia, Eritrea, East Timor, Croatia, Ukraine and even Poland (took centuries to gain recognized independence) etc….Poland is a great example because the polish people were always living in about the same region, but for centuries they were dominated by their more powerful European neighbours. Baashi no need to get emotional, instead you should try to keep track of your arguments. You say you agree with the building block approach that I suggested, but just what do you consider to be the building block? Is it Peace, justice and stability as I suggested? Or is it Unity first? If you say Unity, then its needless for me to repeat that it is an illogical argument as I explained in the previous post. But if you say peace, justice and stability then we agree that the other Somali regions have not yet achieved this status and therefore no need to consider or mention Unity yet as it is further up the scale.

Aight Thanks Haruun, I'm a check the site fo sho.

Lool...Nice to see Somalis are multi-lingual, However Somalis like most others, claim they speak more languages they really can. Now can somebody tell me why that is? Alot of ppl claim languages they cannot speak fluently and write properly. Is modesty a thing of the past?