Jiidawy, saxiib I'm glad the Saudi's are finally taking responsibility and changing the accomodations at Hajj which they predict should take 20yrs, but I feel it is long overdue. They've had more than ample ressources and financing to have made changes in the past. I notice some nomads here are replying with nothing more than the indoctrination they received at a young age, but please people stop the ignorance and use your brains instead of just repeating what you have been told. Yes, "People die at a time that is pre-ordained by Allah", we all know that and no need to repeat if that is all you have to say. Now if you have different ideas from what I have already said, I'm more than welcome to here it, but stating the obvious in this situation is somewhat moronic. Madonna Girl, I am no expert at co-ordinating large gatherings, nor am an architect that would plan out the expansion of the holy sites, however there are some obvious problems that we can all notice. The number of pilgrims continues to increase yr to yr and despite the fact the Saudis say they will limit the number, they aren't doing much at all on the ground. I'm not sure first hand exactly what measures they have taken, but from what I've noticed they're is no security measure to distinguish a clandestine hajji and non-clandestine one. I would suggest cards and electronic check points for selected sites like the Pillar where the space is very limited. This could also apply for other sites like entrance to the masjid. These security measures would also help prevent potential terrorism, I received an e-mail that was being spread by some Zionists that had the qa'ba exploding in flames with pilgrims still circling it. Our holly sites are definitely vulnerable. They're is also a clear lack of man power to co-ordinate these pilgrims, hiring more people and making a rotating schedule for groups of Hajj pilgrims to visit sites at different times if this is not already in place wouldn't hurt.

YASMINE, you are among the few people in this forum not poisoned by politics and who still have enough "claire-voyance" to reason logically on matters that most people do not have the courage to. That being said, I must warn you that the most of the people who will respond to your logical and realist questioning are completelly submerged in their own closed minded ideals. In other words they can't seem to see beyond the tip of their nose. If you try to be objective and realistic about situations, they will submerge you and draw you into their petty political views. Case in point, just look at the response given to you by the above Nomad. Baashi, Garyaaqaan , Samurai, myself etc.. Have been this route before in other threads and believe me I share your view points on understanding one another, but you see most people here cannot rise above their limited views even on the most basic of topics. Nevertheless, I have to applaud your efforts as you put your arguments forward very clearly and with alot of forethought which I think many of us lack. I just hope for your sake you get responses that are equally forethoughtful. Bravo once again

lixle, saxiib I am curious as to what your avitar shows. Can you tell me.

I will not waste time arguing about the Saudi Government because in my opinion anyone who cannot see the shortcomings of that regime is fooling themselves, instead I will focus once more on this great "flaw" of ours(the muslim uumah). That is to accept adversity whitout desire to avert it in the future because it is "The will of Allah". I will leave you with a quote from Dr.Mahatir in his speech at the I.O.C "....We must accept this fate that befalls us. We need not do anything. We can do nothing against the Will of Allah. But is it true that it is the Will of Allah and that we can and should do nothing? Allah has said in Surah Ar-Ra'd verse 11 that He will not change the fate of a community until the community has tried to change its fate itself. "

I understand it was their time to dye and nobody can refut that fact, and you can even say there is no better of dying then while performing the holy pilgrimage. But it is irritating when people say "their was nothing we could do about it". That is the type of mentality the muslim uumah has come to accept, and it is our greatest flaw. This isn't the first time this happened, nor will it be the last time it will happen if something is not done quickly. here is a short chronology that can be found on the original article. The problem is, this type of incident happens too often! 1997: Fire kills 343 pilgrims and injures 1,500 at camp in Mina 1994: Stampede near Jamarat bridge kills at least 270 pilgrims 1990: Stampede in crowded tunnel leading to holy sites kills 1,426 pilgrims 1987: About 400 killed - mainly Iranian Shia pilgrims - in clashes with Saudi forces

Rather sad, the Saudis have known for years now that the Hajj is often overcrowded and leads to these deadly stampedes. Yet the best answer they usually give is "it's God's will" which is a half truth in the sense that God pre-ordaines every event but it doesn't mean the accident was unavoidable in the practical sense. They have ample money and they should have renovated or better organized the pilgramage long ago. Now they claim the renovations will take 20 yrs!! bunch of incapable bedouins. May Allah have mercy on the souls of the dead pilgrims http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3450333.stm Saudis review Hajj danger points There was a panic after some people collapsed near the stoning area Saudi Arabia is setting up a high-level group to redevelop Islam's holiest sites following a stampede that killed 244 people, according to reports. Disaster struck at the ritual "stoning of Satan" at Jamarat Bridge in Mina, near Mecca - site of similar incidents. Some two million Muslims took part in this year's Hajj rituals, which reached their climax on Saturday. Fifty-four Indonesians, 36 Pakistanis and 13 Egyptians were among those who died, according to an official list. HAVE YOUR SAY My mom, brother, and brother-in-law are performing Hajj this year. I am extremely worried Arif Chowdhury, College Station, Texas, USA Send us your comments Fifty three were of unknown nationality; 11 were from India; 11 from Turkey; and 10 from Bangladesh. Another 10 came from African countries. The Hajj - a key obligation for Muslim faithful - was continuing on Monday as pilgrims left the plane of Mina, site of the Jamarat columns, and headed for Mecca. There they will perform a final circumambulation of the Kaaba, the black cubic structure in the centre of Mecca's Grand Mosque. Preventive measures There were more reports of jostling at the sites on Monday, with police giving warnings by megaphone and ambulances seen among the crowds. But there have been no reports of further deaths or major incidents. HAJJ DISASTERS 1997: Fire kills 343 pilgrims and injures 1,500 at camp in Mina 1994: Stampede near Jamarat bridge kills at least 270 pilgrims 1990: Stampede in crowded tunnel leading to holy sites kills 1,426 pilgrims 1987: About 400 killed - mainly Iranian Shia pilgrims - in clashes with Saudi forces Click here to see where the stampede took place The ritual at Jamarat Bridge - in which stones are hurled at pillars representing the devil - is usually the most dangerous part of the Hajj. Physically exhausted after three days of rites, thousands of pilgrims converge around the pillars to cast their stones before beginning the religious feast of Eid al-Adha, when animals are sacrificed. Last year 14 pilgrims were crushed to death during it, and 35 died in a 2001 stampede. The Saudi authorities said they had tried to avoid stampedes this year by urging people to perform the ritual at different times. They also tried to control numbers by setting quotas for pilgrims from each country and requiring their citizens to register. But this year some pilgrims were "not organised" and their personal belongings caused obstructions, said Hajj Minister Iyad Madani. "There was more than 400 metres of people pushing in the same direction (which) resulted in the collapse of those next to the stoning area... and those behind. That led to panic," he added. Reuters news agency quoted SPA as saying King Fahd ordered the formation of the Committee for the Development of Mecca and Medina following the latest disaster. The committee - which will have its own budget and be funded and supported by all the kingdom's ministries - will draft a new layout for Mina and other holy sites. The Saudi Press Agency said the re-development project at Mecca and Medina would take 20 years. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EID MUBARAK to all. I was looking for this thread in the General section and was surprised not to find it. Eid for us ppl living in the west often becomes "just another day". I hope we can continue to remind each other how important this holiday is to all of us. Blessed Eid to all of you.

very good question Ayoub, the answer is not simple since there is alot to be improved, a general answer would be to establish important economic structures that would allow for our economy to flourish beyond the investment of the returning residents. The first place to start in my opinion would be to increase trade and deal with the inflation. I hope to come back to this subject another time to elaborate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk_politics/03/hutton_inquiry/key_players/html/default.stm Rather pathetic, where is the government accountability for the WMD matter? I expected more from british democracy. "I am satisfied that there was not a dishonourable or underhand or duplicitous strategy on the part of the prime minister and officials to leak Dr Kelly's name covertly" Lord Hutton on the prime minister

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/01/28/arar_inquiry040128 OH CANADA! Ottawa promises inquiry will get to the bottom of Arar case Last Updated Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:14:20 OTTAWA - A full public inquiry has been called into why a Canadian citizen was deported by U.S. officials to Syria, where he was imprisoned for a year. INDEPTH: Maher Arar Anne McLellan Public Safety Minister Anne McLellan announced on Wednesday that Justice Dennis O'Connor would head the inquiry into the Maher Arar case. The announcement was welcomed by Arar and his wife Monia Mazigh. "We are delighted with the announcement," Mazigh told a news conference. McLellan said O'Connor would have all the powers allowed under the Public Inquiries Act, including the ability to call witnesses and compel testimony. Dennis O'Connor (CP photo) O'Connor recently led the inquiry into the tainted water tragedy in Walkerton, Ont. "I am very pleased that he has agreed to accept this task," said McLellan. Prime Minister Paul Martin has offered to have opposition party leaders who have seats in Parliament sworn into the Privy Council, so they can see even the classified sections of the inquiry, McLellan said. "It's important to remember why we're here. It's about a man called Maher Arar. It's about his deportation and detention and it is about… the actions of Canadian officials, if any, in relation to those events," said McLellan. Maher Arar and his wife Monia Mazigh (CP photo) Arar said he was eager to see the terms of reference for the inquiry, and wants to contribute to defining them. Arar's lawyer Lorne Waldman said Arar would eventually be asking for compensation, but Arar said that wasn't his main goal. "The most important thing is to exonerate myself and to be certain it won't happen to others," he said. McLellan said O'Connor would also "be asked to make recommendations on an independent, arm's-length review mechanism for the RCMP's activities with respect to national security." Arar has been asking for a public inquiry since he returned to Montreal in October. He says he was tortured while he was held in a Syrian jail. The inquiry is expected to find out what role Canadian security agencies played in his deportation and detention. Conservative justice critic Vic Toews said the government had been pressured into calling the inquiry, but noted "It's also the right thing to do." Toews told CBC Newsworld he was concerned the scope of the inquiry wouldn't be broad enough. "Is it going to look at the relationship between the government and the RCMP?" he said. "We need to have the RCMP at arm's length to the government." Arar was arrested in September 2002 while switching planes in New York when he was returning to Canada from a vacation in Tunisia. After holding him for nearly two weeks, U.S. officials deported him to Syria where he was born, despite the fact he was travelling on a Canadian passport. U.S. authorities said they had reason to suspect Arar was linked to al-Qaeda. There have been allegations that they were acting, in part, on information that came from Canada. Former prime minister Jean Chrétien refused to call a public inquiry, but the Security Intelligence Review Committee announced in December it would investigate the Canadian Security Intelligence Service's role in the case. The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP is looking into the Mounties' role. The prime minister has said the United States has to respect Canadian passports. Earlier this month, Arar launched a lawsuit against the U.S. government, alleging the Americans sent him to Syria knowing he would be tortured there.

LBX, very interesting topic saxib, I wish I had more time to elaborate on some of the ideas I'm about to touch on. Political truth is indeed a tough matter to grasp since politics in itself is a sort of subjective science. In my opinion, we often indulge in politics whitout having a clear understanding or reasoning of what values in our personnal beliefs are more important than others. Therefore the root of the problem is that we don't reflect philosophically on universal questions that extend beyond politics and that could apply to our everyday lives. Those of us who might have done that every now and than, often don't live by the conclusions they stumble on by those reflections. As soon as superficial things such as regional origin, or maybe even the flag that waves in my avitar come to peoples attention, they tend to start drawing narrowminded conclusions even before the exchange of ideas can begin. Hopefully in my next post I'll have time to elaborate more on exactly what universal concepts I eluded to, but for now I would like to ask the participants one of those questions. Unity/solidarity vs.progress Does one of these two concepts takes precedence over the other? why or why not? It is obvious the two concepts can co-exist, but ceterus paribus (holding all other factors constant) if one had to be choosen over the other, which would it be? and why so?

These are already well known facts, to most Somalilanders at least. Some immature children will run around trying to compare incomes of their regions to Somaliland but I suggest Mr.Oodweyne, that you allow them to indulge in their childish fantacies. We do not take pleasure in the suffering of some of our somali brethren and we don't need to compare ourselves to them. We know how far we have come, and the biggest challenge now (other than secure borders) is to not get comfortable with our current situation. There is still alot to be improved and we have to focus on that.

Opinionated, I'm not sure if you were ever aware or you might have forgoten, but there definitely was racial slavery in the time of the prophet. For example if you would recall the story of Biilaal the black abyssinian slave who was freed from his idol worshiping meccan master after suffering the punishment of the "rock" for lack of better terminology. This former slave went on to lead his muslim brothers in prayer and slay his former owner in battle. I don't remember all the details of his existence, but I suggest you look into it. My main point is that arab pagans of the time did slave dark people, as a matter a fact they slaved black people long before the europeans ever did.

Originally posted by dawaco: Unless there is some kind of argument and disagreement going on, we nomads seem to drift around purpose less....It seems as if we have nothing to say, unless we are attacking or counter attacking. If we can't be objective and agreeable SOMETIMES in this forum, how can we achieve that in our country? Very wise words dawaco, it's unfortunate more somalis don't share you line of thought. This forum is sort of representative of the broader somali populous as well as the complete lack of understanding and detachment shown by most members towards each other, specially when it comes to politics. Objective reasoning is clearly not part of the somali mentality, in most cases I blame this on a complete lack of what I call realistic forethought.

Interesting, I didn't see the Isracaa lobby group before. I think these lobby groups in general are good when they focused on the betterment of somali lives back home. For example there is an article on the ISRACAA website that talks about the charcoal trade and its environmental consequences. When efforts are focus on positive endeavours, only good can come of it, however when they decide to focus on political issues such as Somaliland's independance they waste ressources that could be used elsewhere. the ISRACAA group doesn't seem nearly as obsessed as some other groups I have previously encountered, they seem to call for open dialogue on the issue and they put forth their own arguments on unity in a logical and straightforward manner and to my eyes that is respectable. Let's focus again on the utility of these groups and in particular SOPRI advocacy in the US for recognition. I feel these types of groups are needed simply to counter other groups the likes of the former TNG that go around spreading lies and propaganda claiming they represent the interest of all somalis when they barely control 2 city blocks in Mogadisho.

What about your relations with Somaliland which is your immediate neighbor? President Geele of Djibouti: It (Somaliland) is going the same way as the south – there are now fundamentalists who want to destabilize the situation. Unless the south is stable, Somaliland cannot be stable, contrary to what they think… And of course we support a united Somalia. We cannot allow ourselves to advocate secession. We should definitely keep Djibouti at arms lenght, they are no different from our foes in their governments stance towards Somaliland. Riiyaale should explain the goals behind his visits to Djibouti.

Originally posted by Bari_Nomad: Somaliland: The 'nation' of Dreamers. Keep it up. Tell me why your 30,000 strong 'army'(or is it 100,000 now? ) has not reached LA yet? LOL. Talk about dragging their feet and taking their time. Are they lost? Maybe they should ask for directions. Or we here on SOL can pool our money together and send them a nice color map Altho I doubt they could count, much less read Maybe its me but I think they've gotten too use to lazying around hargeisa sipping coffee. This is quite amuzing, I say this because of the hypocracy displayed by some members on this website the likes of the above. One minute they're preaching peace, and the next they seem eager to support their side in engaging in military conflict perhaps due to the elusion that their side has gained an upper hand in the conflict i.e. Yusuf's milita still remaining in lascanood. I know it fills your lungs with pride to know that your militia is hiding behind a town filled with impartial dwellers including women and children, but step back and ask yourself what would be the honarable thing to do in case of conflict? Wouldn't it be best to come out of the town and fight in the open as to minimize the harm to the civilian population that your warlord claims as his own?

Originally posted by HornAfrique: Lander "Somaliland", "Puntland", what ever land are but branches of the great SOMALI TREE. Don't ever sell yourself short by denying your heritage, your history, and your past. Punt was called the aromatic land, the land of myrrh and frankincense, our so-called uunsi. Just that fact alone tells where it's real location was at. I am aware that some modern day somali regions most likely where part of what was known to the Ancient Egyptians as the land of PUNT, however history would indicate that there was no such thing as a Somali in those ancient days. It is too far back to try to relate it to the somali race which could be said to have converged with several different ethnicities over the centuries. It could be compared to calling some small province in Iraq MESOPOTAMIA, which would be rather foolish. That being said, it can lead one to presume that name of Puntland was probably choosen out of historical ignorance, it doesn't demark any borders that previously existed and if it does or ever did, I assume Yusuf plans on annexing Ethiopia and Eritrea too. Nevertheless this is the choosen name of a region and we can get back to discussing its political goals. Bari, for the book your recommend "Rebuilding Somalia: Issues and Possibilities for Puntland." I'll try to look into it and I hope it is impartial and sheds light on the events that took place when Yusuf took power. Hopefully the book will elaborate on the intentions of the early regional governments too, rather than just siting events like their website does. Windtalker, P.S. I really don't see the need to bring up Somaliland issues and compare/contrast when the question simply asks the origins and goals of Puntland State! True the topic asks the goals of the Puntland province or State which ever you like, however we all know that history is intertwined and we cannot ignore the influence of one event on another. Sort of like conditional probabilities, meaning the probability of an event happening given that another has already taken place P(Y|X). To illustrate, would modern day Somaliland exist if Siad Barre hadn't come to power and oppressed the people of our region? my guess is most likely NOT. Would Puntland region exist if Somaliland hadn't declared independance? the best guess is most likely NOT. Could these "guesses" have a biased? The answer is YES, however slight they might be, it still depends on the individuals degree of objectivity and since we are all human we are bond to make mistakes. Can we eliminate these bias however slight they might be, the answer is NO than we wouldn't be guessing on probabilities anymore, it would be a certainty.

Originally posted by Huuganka Ideolojiyada: Lakiin this troupe that comes out dancing for yusuf doesnt remotley know what their on about, exept of course trying to keep peoples heads down by hurling accusations of qabiil! An observation I share saxiib, that is why I started this topic. Bari, As for that democratically elected government you allude to, First of all I seriously doubt it was a free regional election that involved everyday people. Must of been in the form of Elders voting on who will lead the region sort of like Somaliland in the early days, which in itself is not a bad start at all. But If I remember correctly Abdulahi Yusuf murdered the very people he was suppose to share power with, or am I wrong? if so than maybe you would like to elaborate on these events that put him in power. As my impression of Puntland in those early days, I have to say it was very favourable even though I wasn't knowledgeable on exactly what their intentions were politically, I gave them the benefit of the doubt since they were trying to salvage themselves from the chaos that plagued the rest of the country. I cannot find documentation on the event that I alluded to in my previous post about the meeting of some Puntland delegates and Somaliland delegates in the early days that took place in Hargeisa, but I know that caused a rupture between the two administrations. Maybe someone else remembers this event and could enlighten us. As for why I think Puntland sounds very secessionist, it stems from the simple historical fact that there is or was no Puntland in Somali history, some historians would argue that the land of PUNT was compromised of modern Eritrea, Ethiopia and parts of Sudan. Regardless of these debatable historical chapters, the fact remains the name of the region came out of thin air as I previously explained. The website you reffered gives alot of historical information on Waqoyii Bari during the war and the years immediatelly after the war when they installed the parliamentary reforms, however almost no information on 1998-to the present or more importantly Yusuf seizure of Power. What I'm also interested in is what were the intentions of that early government that came before Yusuf.

This was my reply to an article posted concerning the progress made in Puntland. It seems that in alot of the articles that come up from ALL PUNTLAND or some other puntland websites, there is this allusion to statehood. So it begs the question exactly what are the current political goals of this region, but more importantly what were the original motives that created this region which never existed in somali history prior to 1998. I look forward to hearing what knowledge the Puntlanders have to share. Good news indeed for the people of North East Puntland region. Not that this reality didn't exist prior to the acknowlegement of this foreigner, but I guess somalis will only be satisfied with their situation when they get approval from outsiders. Obviously there are some definite issues to be work on within Puntland internal politics, specially when it comes to democratic reforms which are practically non-existent at the moment. Until those reforms take place, Puntland will have to settle for the title of most succesfull and stable warlord fiefdom, but nevertheless it remains a fiefdom. The reasoning behind this statement is that a region under the absolute control of One man can only go as far as that man will allow, or as far as his charismatic leadership will provide for the needs of the population which consists mostly of economic and political stability. Which brings me to a question that has never been completely answered to me. Why was PUNTLAND created in the first place? In the early days (1998) I was under the impression it was to emulate Somaliland and create another independant and stable region from the former somali republic. Which made some sense to me, until a couple of years later after a disagrement in some talks in Hargeisa, I heard the Puntlanders political stance is that of a united Somalia in which Puntland remained a province. So if the intention from the get go was for the regions in the area of Puntland to remain under Somalia, than why rename the area? and why the name of PUNT an ancient civilization that incompassed half of East Africa? why not Waqooyi Bari Province or something of that sort? why use the more secessionist sounding word of Puntland? so many questions....I have to leave it at that for now. Hopefully the knowledgeable Puntlanders could answer these questions to start with.

Good news indeed for the people of North East Puntland region. Not that this reality didn't exist prior to the acknowlegement of this foreigner, but I guess somalis will only be satisfied with their situation when they get approval from outsiders. Obviously there are some definite issues to be work on within Puntland internal politics, specially when it comes to democratic reforms which are practically non-existent at the moment. Until those reforms take place, Puntland will have to settle for the title of most succesfull and stable warlord fiefdom, but nevertheless it remains a fiefdom. The reasoning behind this statement is that a region under the absolute control of One man can only go as far as that man will allow, or as far as his charismatic leadership will provide for the needs of the population which consists mostly of economic and political stability. Which brings me to a question that has never been completely answered to me. Why was PUNTLAND created in the first place? In the early days (1998) I was under the impression it was to emulate Somaliland and create another independant and stable region from the former somali republic. Which made some sense to me, until a couple of years later after a disagrement in some talks in Hargeisa, I heard the Puntlanders political stance is that of a united Somalia in which Puntland remained a province. So if the intention from the get go was for the provinces in the area of Puntland to remain under Somalia, than why rename the area? and why the name of PUNT an ancient civilization that incompassed half of East Africa? why not Waqooyi Bari Province or something of that sort? why use the more secessionist sounding word of Puntland? so many questions....I have to leave it at that for now. Hopefully the knowledgeable Puntlanders could answer these questions to start with.

lol... I have to admit this picture is funny, whats most funny about it is that the character doesn't even look somali. I think he looks more like the skinny sudanese version of Saddam Hussein. Lighten up ppl, I know this is the politics forum but I think jokes transcend political lines. I seen a picture of Mandeeq one time with Riiyaale's picture as its head, I thought that was hilarious.

It's been awhile since I read anything related to Football, but I'm glad to here Zidane won footballer of the yr it shows you don't have to score a tone of goals to win this award. I still think Henry should have won and maybe even Nedved. But clearly Henry was the most dominant footbaler of 2003 and may I add the biggest threat for opponents to worry about. Every time he touches the ball it seems he draws alot of attention from the defenses like no other footbaler in the world today. Ahhh well as long as it stays the french family it's all good. Vive le football français!! ouais!!!

nice looking indeed... I actually like the look of this hotel more than ambassador at first glance to be honest. It has a more private feel to it, like a suburban neighborhood. I should note though that I've never been to ambassador.

Modesty and Hornafrique, Believe me I am well aware of the american support for these puppet governments, the americans are definetely the enemies of Islamic civilization. But overlooking our own decadence is the mistaken often made by neo Islamic revolutionaries. The Ibn Saud dynasty was in power before the discovery of oil and the arrival of westerners, they did not need american support to gain power or to sustain it in their early days and besides the oil not much else has changed today. They are still the same narrowminded wahabi imperial power they where decades ago with or whitout americans. Our deterioration as the islamic umah started long ago probably somewhere near the end of the 7th century. It has been mostly downhill since the time when Baghdad was the capital of modern science, litterature and arts. When intellectuals would meet in springing gardens cooled by jasmine scented breezes, where the dinstinction between caliph and phylosopher didn't exist since they could both describe the same person. Anyway, before I get anymore carried away the point is that,we are our own worst enemies. We have to start looking inwards and start making changes to one day realise the utopian dream of the great civilizations we once were. In our current state we can never hope to deal with our true enemies (the american and zionist), since when do the weak impose their will on the strong? If we are to make some real changes we have to start with the elimination of the cowards that are in partnership with the enemy, they are the ones who are facilitating our decadence. Just look at our brethren in Baghdad today, these people who descend from a rich cultur are reduced to luting and killing each other. Their faith might a been different if only Qatar, Kuwait, Jordan and Saudi regimes had the courage to say "no" to the americans. Where do we start you say? How about Hosni Mubarak, King Fahd, Musharaf and Prince Abdul all assassinated that would be a good start. I'm out, before I start indulging in homicidal fantacies