Xiin, your perspective in the southern Issue as relating to Kismaayo has always and consistently been from a vantage point of a mythical supra-"H" vantage point. Nothing has irked you and nothing will irk you more than being shown the irrelevance of contending with you about political realities from clan perspective in that city and region so forgive me for reiterating you are periphery and your stalked position in the debate has been based on nothing more than strength of rhetoric. May be that gives you some room for maneuver in SOL and perhaps that is all the legitimacy you are after in which case I will ask you to continue on. Zack- Kenyans aren't central to my picture; they are to yours. That explains why you hold them with much importance. I simply support any materialized support against Shabaab, I have never thought and do not hold much political importance to Kenya. In fact, soon you will see.

Zack- Awoowe xaal qaado sheekada wey naga quruntaye.

Zack- No, I am surprised at your singular claim to "Jubooyinka" when the Looboge themselves could give you a run for your money, when your presence in Kismaayo has never been existent in civil war or pre, when the "Gedo" boys are not longer confined to "Gedo" but past the wells of Sakow and are in Bu'aale and grazing in Lower Jubba in Beerxaani, Orgiyoow, Diif, are very much the prominent singular clan presence in Kismaayo, etc. Also knowing the two non-M/Subeer groups from the "ONLF" in Jubooyinka are more politically aligned with the Gedo boys as far back as the SPM-SNF wars in the early 90's and throughout the JVA period than they have ever been with M/Subeer. Adeer the reality must be delineated to you. You are not in the position to what can or cannot be in Jubbaland nor attempt to come anything close to monopolizing right of identity and responsibility for it. As for the question, I support anyone that will help in the fight against Al Shabaab just as all of actors from Dollow to Kamboni have said. No one said Azania and interference are tied of the hip and in fact deliberations have shown how fluid it is to in dispense of it.

I have never been shy of countering silly pretensions, Che, particularly when it comes from Xiin and his translucent disavow of what he entails "clan agenda". Also, silly emotionalism has yielded naught dear boy. The nation will be brought back pragmatically on the back of realpolitik rather than some emotional yearning for an army of white-clad freedom fighters evincing a nature of clannish purity. It is how Somaliland has self-organized, the circumstance of Puntland's autonomy, and the future security of Jubbaland. All the success stories, as of the current, emanating from the ashes of the Somali Republic have tackled clan rather than ignoring it and as such it will be used to discuss this matter as well. A real Jubbaland is in the works, supported by the TFG, Ethiopia, as well as Kenya. We will see what the future yields. Zack- Fadhi-ku-dirir baad maqashayo adeer adigu gambar soo qaadoo bal meel isaga fadhiiso. Your cafe-inspired talk is inappropriate. And really, I must protest, you know naught what you talk about beyond some emotional support of Ghandi's objectives.

xiinfaniin;758931 wrote: The Xiins may be periphery in your mind, but they are not complaining. If there are any clannish grumbles and negative sentiment against Azania project it is coming from your block, who as we know are reduced to either alshabaab subjects or Ethiopian mercenaries in own region, which is a real periphery to the city in question. Facts are facts, Gabal. I hope you are not that confused to ignore the consensus of the clan you dislike simply Xiin is creating opposition threads against Kenyan invasion. The clan you are referring as periphery are on board with Azania from Garowe to Kismayo , The PM endorsed it, Faroole desires it, and the Shoe-n-Sheep community are seemingly united Complaining? What do you consider complaining? How do you expect to be taken seriously when your criteria for complaining is simply not taking seriously something even the relevant power in question has already yielded on? Azania does not exist, it was farfetched idea to begin with and it is a non-starter now with the Kenyans inside of the Republic. This explains why a man like Dhuumaal is positioning Dhooblay and Qooqaani's administrations while the "Azania" named administrations simply do not materialize. There is always a hidden catch and particularly Somalia's civil war maneuverings. You know that, you try to play it well. I don't think anyone has "complained" about Azania, I simply think no one has taken it seriously. The Gedo group are bent on consolidating full control over Gedo, lead the TFG troops in the Lower Jubba who are more numerous there than Madoobe's 150 boys, and are the clear majority force in the city of Kismaayo as the removal of Yusuf-administration showed as well as the removal of Ras Kamboni/Xisbul Islam. In a state that would be bordered as Jubbaland, the primary investments lie with this community and as such forgive me for sidelining your relevance as strength of rhetoric than nearing anything ese.

xiinfaniin;758390 wrote: Please ignore our old friend Gabal's confused messages; he is the most mischievous for he welcomes Kenya's invasion while opposing Azania and then have the audacity to accuse others with clannish agenda A leopard doesn't change its spots awoowe and your pretensions on the topic of clannish agenda is one in which I do not find much importance. I have never really cared for it. In the game of investment in a state that would be bordered as Jubbaland, you are periphery and your self-assured quislings are mute in my opinion. It explains the difference in my disclosures and your pretensions.

xiinfaniin;758607 wrote: You sound confused just like the author whose write up you posted. You need 101 on local politics. Why don't you consult with Gabal, the other confused fellow in these boards. I would take you at face value if I didn't think you were grasping for straws.

Neither am I a supporter of Azania and certainly Kenya itself has taken a more pragmatic approach to the infeasibility of such an entity that had been formed outside of the country, had been hijacked by involved parties to attempt to sideline some of the most credible stakeholders, and which has gotten frowns from both Villa Somalia and Addis Ababa. Kenya is certainly a young nation, with a virgin-like approach to geo-political gravitas, and so is certainly, as deliberations have shown, not an ideology-driven state or dogmatic in any respect of regional political machinations. They are very pragmatic as interaction has shown and will simply adapt to unfolding information and realities. They just need to be shown different realities do exist than can be analyzed by Somalis in the Kenyan government. Still, their general movements in the area are well appreciated by those impacted.

Adeer, talo hadaad doonaysid Ghandi iyo waxaas iska daa. Azania-yada la sheegsheegayo kol horay gabbal dhacday.

What Kenya is doing is not any more different than what Ethiopia has done and is doing to your Puntland and Somaliland. In fact, even the boots on the ground as we remember clearly the Puntand elites' celebration of Ethiopian battalions in Gaalkacyo facing down the ICU. Pressing realities on the ground supersede your forced cries of pseudo-nationalism half a world away. Priorities must be delineated, there is a hierarchy to follow: local, national, international. Why worry about grander schemes when civil strife has forced to you regress locally? Oftentimes neighbors and other foreign powers have interfered to quell civil war and in many circumstances provided an impetus of profound space for growth. For those of us from the area in question, it is worth the try.

It is a folly to assume Xiin is altogether aware of his contradictions. The sanity in his ethos lies in rarely acknowledging it; rather denying it which serves as a defense mechanism when he is called to introspection.

Baardheere is the lone Shabaab occupied town in the Gedo region. As such, one would understand the credibility of such a meeting as an honest representation of the indigenous population is under threat.

I think you would be correct in that assessment Ayoub.

nuune;754435 wrote: Gabbal waa soo dhacyey, this post is clearly in agreement with AT&T 's in search of Resting Place: The Azania Aliens. I think there are two defining characteristics of this discourse as it relates to the Kenyan presence in southern Somalia; 1) the support provided against the Shabaab in a military capacity and 2.) the nature of the political interference outside of the Shabaab effort. While I am careful to frame my position around the former, I sympathize immensely with AT&T and wished to add my opposition to those individuals who exerted effort into belittling his honest, candid, and thorough expression of legitimate aspirations.

I have read with some interest the different perspectives given concerning the presence of Kenya in the southern regions of Somalia and I must say a differentiation in discourse is needed. It seems some partisans are visibly pro-Kenyan troop presence as well as perceived political interference while others seem to be strongly adamant in opposing the entire presence of Kenya in southern Somalia based on whatever preconceived notions that may be guiding them. Not all is what meets the eye. Brought into the discourse is a multifaceted layering of Somali politick having origins in or guidance from the circumstance of Somalia's civil war. Undifferentiated is the nature of the discourse itself into putting emphasis on the Kenyan troop presence as a positive reinforcement of the general design to combat the military prowess of the Shabaab. I am of the opinion that it is entirely hypocritical for Somalis to oppose Kenya in this respect. Of course it must be disclosed that I am targeting those who have already given allegiance to the entity espoused as the Transitional Government of Somalia. It is an inescapable fact that the entire success of the Somali government in the Benadir region is a result of foreign troops. Some could be excused for a deceptive defense of this realty by highlighting AMISOM is here through an international mandate. Even so, AMISOM has more than once requested support, and physical at that, through the capacity of IGAD's regional mechanism which TFG loyalists will be loathe to admit has had the signature of the TFG's present administration. It is only because of the nature of Ethiopia's historical errors and meddling in Somalia and the suspicions it arises from Somalis that IGAD was prevented from materializing the requested support considered a responsibility of the regional bloc. Still, the entire success of the central region's Ahlu Sunnah stand against the Shabaab which has prevented the faction from physically taking their cause to the northeast and beyond is attributable to Ethiopia's marked influence and interference. TFG loyalists who are sensitive to criticism of these realities will admit then the extent to which their reservations about the Kenyan presence in Somalia is misplaced. In fact, a number of the individuals who seem to be adamantly opposed to Kenya's military effort against Shabaab, with misplaced notions of moral superiority no less, are themselves loyalists and supporters of entities and factions whose security is guaranteed by Ethiopia in this respect. I encourage us to be honest with ourselves and cease the translucent pseudo-nationalism witnessed with this specific development. It is unbecoming and drips from the blade of hypocrisy.

There is no such thing as Azania and Kenya would do well to support the neutralizing of the Shabaab militarily without meddling in the mainstream political affairs of the land. Groups more powerful, battle tested, and advanced in the art of regional interferences have tried and failed before and are just as ready to give another try. It is almost painful to watch how fast Kenya's much publicized and victorious entrance through the Somalia border is turning into a political nightmare for Nairobi State House. Zack, if you believe Kenyan boots will carry Azania on its back and keep it installed in Kismaayo, wake up to reality. Jubbaland State will be built inside of the borders of Somalia and through negotiations, compromise, and agreement between the peoples and entities existing in the land. It will be a fair and just and equitable administration for the people by the people and manufactured in the land. Waxaad walaaqaysid is already a failure.

One of the most successful initiatives which embody the principles of effective public diplomacy is the creation of the European Youth Centre in Strasbourg after the second World War. Following the devastating world wars, the western European powers theorized confederation and possibility of economic, social, and political unity would forever make the Europeans very much dependent on each other and would become a bulwark against any other armed conflict in Western Europe. Such socio-politico institutions were the vehicles used to lead to the European Commission, the European Council, the European Parliament, and this modern day unifying European Union. Ironically enough the author expects such institutions that led the diverse Europeans to unify would have the opposite effect on the homogenous Somali ethnic group. Still, he should be applauded for engaging constructive interaction rather than unsuccessful isolation and unilateralism.

xiinfaniin;748311 wrote: Actually he did not hide inuusan u arag Shariifyada leaders I would be interested to see you expand on this.

You mean it legitimizes the claims I had made? I don't deny it Xiin. But then again, I think the day the Gedo community expelled the combined militias of Koojaar and Afgaduud following the removal of the ICU was the day the population statistics of the city of Kismaayo became apparent to all who cared to look. Really though, I think the fact this is highlighted now in this topic has less to do with my excitement than yours' and Zack's unconcealed irritation.

How did I know some would not get beyond that point of consistent majority label? It may not come as a surprise to you but Gabbal did not write those cables and neither do the American embassies in Addis Ababa and Nairobi have any reason to show bias about Kismaayo's tribal balance. If you are unhappy about it, take it up with American intelligence gathering.

Nuune, I have not once supported "Azania." In fact, on the occasion of Ghandi's "election" as president of "Azania", I wrote this in this board; Gabbal;707938 wrote: I have known of the project before you had heard of it and privy to more of the details than Kismaayonews can glean off from official stationary. It is noble and seems to follow the skeleton of the general state, but it is not going anywhere adeer. Ghandi is an anthropologist; he is not a politician and nor really a leader. The construct form of Jubbaland is agreed upon by many in the region but many actors (including international backers) have competing attempts to monopolize the name and Ghandi, rather than being different and bringing a different context, seems to have joined the game of monopolization on behalf of a section of Kenya's foreign ministry. It is fine and dandy when you partake in the game from international hotels, but it is a different ballgame when you want to implement where it really matters. He has fallen out with the TFG, he has fallen out with AMISOM, Ethiopia is highly suspicious of it, the Dollow armed movement considers it just another faction in competition, and all this while Shabaab is firmly in control of the land. You have made the name in paper, how will you carry it to Kismaayo? http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/showthread.php/54595-Prof.-Gandi-First-Elected-President-of-Azania-State-of-Somalia?p=707938&viewfull=1#post707938 Abtigiis, Xiin is not really a pragmatist. That perception exists because he opines carefully. However, he always takes positions in a fairly predictable manner that revolve around personal interests concerning him and which might be rooted in reasons many will need to examine closely before noticing underlying motivations. As for what you consider pragmatism; I will show you real pragmatism here. I think Shabaab's current hold on the city is a force stabilizer. The city is not in any clan's hands and no clan feels an immediate and blinding need to first engage militarily before anything else. They have removed that from the equation which has given every clan a timeout to cool heads and look at the situation closely. What should be the solution for the intractable problem in the Jubba Valley? How will these clans in the valley unite in a federal state (a design all the clans agree on) that is fair, just, and equitable between all? Will compromise be accepted with regards to the city of Kismaayo? Should this be achieved through war or peacefully? Is war in the interest of any since it is never ending and leads to perpetual instability? These are all issues that must be discussed and reached a consensus on before you re-open the gates of Kismaayo to the wrath of clannish competition.

Azania is a recent entity declared and headquartered in neighboring Kenya that seeks to unite the southern-most Somalia regions of Gedo, Middle Jubba, and Lower Jubba into a federal state part of the future federal system of Somalia. Reportedly it is supported by Kenya and vehemently opposed by Ethiopia and the US (according to leaked US diplomatic cables). The entity was formulated and is led by Professor Mohamed Abdi Ghandi, who once served as the Minister of Defense in the current TFG built through the Djibouti Process. He was part of the ARS-Djibouti group and was reportedly very close to President Sheikh Sharif which is how he came to find himself a member of the TFG. Originally he is a professor of anthropology at Sorbonne University in Paris. Ideally, you would expect a man who was part of the alliance for the re-liberation of Somalia, and an educated professor no less, to be sincere in his dealings with regards to the attempts to find solutions to the intractable Somalia political quagmire. This seems not to be the case. The man who attempts to unite these regions having history in bitter and contested civil war tribal battles, particularly for the city of Kismaayo which is the principal city in the state, seems to be evincing a tribal warlord mentality with divisionary tactics as revealed by leaked US diplomatic cables. For a man who has on the outset given himself the reputation of being an honest educated man intent on uniting Somalis in that state and is campaigning specifically within the Gedo community to be seen as a man they could trust and works for the interest of all the people in the state, according to diplomatic cables he is anything but that; "Gandi" said the offensive must take place before mid-October in order to take advantage of current weather conditions that complicate al-Shabaab's efforts to re-supply through the port of Kismayo. The force in Lower Juba will consist of [Dhoobley] clan militia but will not include [Gedo clan] militia from the Gedo region. Gandi said [Gedo clan] involvement in the effort to take Kismayo would be "horrible" and stated firmly "the [Gedo clan] can not go to Kismayo." http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/08/09NAIROBI1732.html The Juba Offensive described by "Gandi," despite obvious differences in emphasis and motivation, appears to have in common with Madobe's initiative an understanding that any push into Kismayo should be predominantly [Dhoobley clan]-led. http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/08/09NAIROBI1732.html The good professor states these divisionary and very partisan tribal opinions (he is from the Dhoobley clan) concerning one of the most contested cities in civil war Somalia, which is at the heart of the 20 year tribal wars in the Jubba Valley, and which leaked US diplomatic cables reveal has a population with the "Gedo clan" as a majority; (Comment: While President Yusuf is from the [Puntland] sub-clan, the [clan] presence in Kismaayo is largely from the [Gedo] sub-clan. End Comment.) http://wikileaks.org/cable/2008/02/08ADDISABABA286.html ¶5. (SBU) Kismayo has been the locus of a long-standing conflict between the region's [Greater D] sub-clans. The city has changed hands several times in the recent past and some have estimated that it has been controlled by 30 different regimes (mostly clan-based) since ¶1991. The [Dhoobley clan], last week's winners, have a power base outside Kismayo, and are unlikely to be welcome for the long term by Kismayo's citizenry, the majority of whom are [Gedo clan]. Our contacts question how long this Kismayo coalition of convenience between local clans, ICU remnants, and al-Shabaab can hold together, given the city's past, its clan makeup, and likelihood of disagreements over sharing power and port revenues. http://wikileaks.org/cable/2008/08/08NAIROBI2032.html Now if the professor took the position that his clan militias should be the only militia allowed to be in Dhoobley or Afmadoow, it is understandable. However, to take a position resembling one of the many Jubba Valley warlords with regards to the diverse and cosmopolitan city of Kismaayo (a place which according to the leaked diplomatic cables has a population in the majority consisting of the clan the professor explained would be "horrible" (for his clan interests) to be allowed to be part of Kismaayo's liberation from Al Shabaab) is a reflection of the kind of man he is, the greater objectives behind his "Azania" entity, ultimately why those objectives will not materialize, and why he risks destabilizing and dividing the population of Jubbaland even more.

Ahlu Sunada Gedo oo sheegay inay dileen dagaalyahano Shabaab ah Buurdhuubo : (Sh. M. Network) Maamulka Ahlu Sunna Waljamaaca ee gobolka Gedo ayaa waxa uu sheegay in dagaalka ka dhacay deegaano ka tirsan gobolkaasi ay ku dileen dagaalyahano ka tirsan Al Shabaab. Afhayeenka Maamulka Ahlu Sunna ee gobolka Gedo Sheekh Max’ed Xuseen Al qaaddi oo wareysi siiyay Idaacadd Shabelle ayaa waxa uu guula ka sheegtay dagaal shalay gilinkii dambe ay Shabaab kula galeen qeybo ka mid ah gobolka Gedo. Al qaaddi ayaa tibaaxay in weerar ay ku qeedeen fariisimo deegaanka Buurdhuubo ee gobolkaasi ay ku leeyihiin Xarakada Al Shabaab ay ku dileen 5-dagaalyahano oo ka tirsan Shabaab in ka badana ay ku dhaawaceen ayna la wareegeen deegaankii ay weerarka ku qaadeen. Afhayeenka Maamulka Ahlu Sunna Waljamaaca ayaa waxa uu sheeca ka qaaday inay wadaan qorshooyin ay ku weerarayaan deegaanada kale ee gobolka Gedo ay kaga sugan yihiin Xarakada Al Shabaab si ay uga saaraan guud ahaan deegaanada gobolkaasi. Majiro wax war ah oo kasoo baxay Saraakiisha Xarakada Al Shabaab oo ku aadan dagaalka Maamulka Ahlu Sunna ee gobolka Gedo ay sheegeen inay kaga dileen dagaalyahano kuwa kalana ay kaga dhaawaceen. http://shabelle.net/article.php?id=9398

It seems as if the offensive against Al Shabaab which halted in Garbahareey district has restarted with fresh win against Al Shabaab. Buurdhuubo, one of the two last districts in the region held by Al Shabaab and considered the first defense against Shabaab positions in Baardheere, has been taken. Dagaal ka dhacay Buurdhuubo iyo gacan ku haynteeda oo lala wareegay Sheekh Maxamed Xuseen Isxaaq Al-Qaaddi, oo ah Afhayeenka Alusuna waljameeca ee gobolada Koonfureed ee dalka Soomaaliya, oo warbaahinta la hadlayay ayaa sheegay in ay si buuxda ula wareegeen Buurdhuubo isla markaana ay fariisimo xoogan kala wareegeen Al-shabab, oo ay mudooyinkii u danbeeyay isku hayeen gacan ku haynta gobolka Gedo oo intiisa badan Al-shabab lagala wareegay. http://gedoonline.com/?p=24808

It continues to intrigue how minuscule Xiin's calculation has changed. Since the beginning his domestic political gradient with respect to the Shabaab question has consistently stayed thus: Strongly Support Shabaab: Kismaayo, Lower Jubba, Gedo Emotionally Neutral: Mogadishu, Bay and Bakool, Galgaduud and Hiiraan Strongly Oppose Shabaab: Puntland, Galmudug (Puntland's southern defense)