if they're on a cave they must be old .... i mean, only ancient people would want to write on caves; the rest of us have paper and pc's.

I think we have 3 choices with regards to living in the west, 1) we can leave and go back home 2) we can stay and integrate 3) we can stay and assimilate. Everyone make your choice. For me right now it seems I have to integrate myself before I am assimilated. Leaving is just out of the question.

Mutakallim, "Some scholars invoke the age-old juridical formula that "Necessity supercedes proscription" (الضرورة تبيح المحظورات). What if it is necessary that one vote so as to attain representation. If one does not have "representation", then one's rights will be swallowed", this is the point I was trying to make when I said "The laws are going to be made anyway, why should we let only others make them when these laws are going to apply to us also? It would be fine to ignore these structures if their decisions had no consequences on our lives, but sadly they do. We should do what we can to insure that they do not effect us in any negative way." Mutakallim, thank you for clearifying the meaning of those words.

Conscious Manipulation, on your point that the writers of the report choose words very carefully so as not to offend the sentiments of muslims (by using integration in place of assimilation, traditional in place of islamic) is well made. I disagree with you on your point that if Muslims should invest more in social mobility and participate in the political process and find allies among the members of the majority societies that this by doing this they are signifying that 'islam has failed them'. You say that to do these things (invest more in social mobility and participate in the political process and find allies among the members of the majority societies) is to "look to the constitutions of their respective counties, UN resolutions, Human rights charters ect for solutions"..."and not to Allah". But the fact is that we have to live under the laws that are being made by those respective counties, the UN, Human rights charters, and others; so why should we not take part in the processes and institutions that make these laws to try and insure these laws are made with our interests in mind? The laws are going to be made anyway, why should we let only others make them when these laws are going to apply to us also? It would be fine to ignore these structures if their decisions had no consequences on our lives, but sadly they do. We should do what we can to insure that they do not effect us in any negative way. Like you said, "Muslims should constantly be engaged in dialog with society promoting Islamic values and ideas as alternatives to secular non-solutions to human problems." Part of that interaction should be to gain the influence that comes with social mobility, participation in the political process, and pursue interests enlightened by the interests of other groups in society and our values. Conscious Manipulation, I see where you’re coming from, and although I have not read the report, I assume that its purpose and tone is anti-islamic. Never the less, the issue of how we are going to live as a minority in the west is one we need to discuss and understand if we are to protect our interests and promote our values for the betterment of humanity.

his name Zain Bhikha... he's from south africa, my little cuz'ns love his music.

about how W is not double U but double V, it's true! and you know what, people from the indian subcontinent actually don't say W as double U, they say double V. So what is Vut and where is ver and so on.

assimilation has a negative connotation in my mind (think Borg Collective )... But i like integration. I think for those of us that are thinking of making these western counties our homes we need to thinking about what our place is in the society and Move towards becoming full members of the social franchise and contract. the items the group listed are good and positive, maybe except number 3, it hard for people to not focus on event back home. But that’s ok if people still have connections to their country of origin; I don’t see how that could have any negative effects. but “muslims†is probably too broad a group though. Like the Somali experience and how Somali’s might integrate into western society is probably very different from how Malaysians might integrate, yet both groups are muslims. Item number 7, “Muslims should invest more in social mobility and participate in the political process and find allies among the members of the majority societiesâ€, might be the most important. Muslims as a whole, or segments of the muslim community (different nations and races), should identify segments of the majority society that they can be associated with. Like in the USA black muslims from Africa can very easy ally themselves with the African-American community. Muslims can also find allies within business groups, labor groups, and professional associations. I think muslims are giving a lot of thought to this issue of what our place should be in western society and this is very positive. I’ve even heard that some Islamic experts are forging a new field of fiqh about living as a minority in nonmuslim society.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1035.htm

For those of us in the USA, gas prices are really starting to become a problem.... it's now more then $2/gallon and everyday the price for lite crude is getting highter. Is the world running out of oil and we're just seeing the signs?

Sue... so if your not turning a blind eye, what's that mean? your trying to get in on the actions?

Hi Sue, cool topic. the terms 'freedom' and 'democracy' have a different meaning when used in the context of western political thought; and in that context they are mostly instruments of propaganda with little or no relationship to the dictionary definition of the terms. Another term I’ve been hearing often recently is “civilized worldâ€. Here are examples of “civilized world†in use: "After more than a decade of diplomacy, we gave Saddam Hussein another chance, a final chance, to meet his responsibilities to the civilized world --- President Bush "[iran is not] part of the civilized world." --Mr. Rumsfeld So we have the “democratic worldâ€, the “free worldâ€, and now we have the “civilized worldâ€. If you were to look at how these terms are used in western politics, you would think that to be part of the "free and civilized world" you have to be white.

that is great. there are many east asian mustlims, i have met many in my area.

it's true... they are not 'woman friendly' (at least the ones i've been to) but that's totally understandable. Women really have no business in a mosque. men have to pray there (we have no choice, God’s law says so).

Bill Cosby has the right to so harshly criticize the African American community because he puts his money where his mouth is! As blacks we need to value education more. And the spread of negative-hip-hop culture has damaged respect for education and hard, honest work.

what people go through to look "good" for others

... I went to see it the other night.... the damn theater was closes! :mad:

...accents

where the two boxes the same shade? They didn't look the same shade to me

The Daily Show has outdone its self once again... http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6377.htm Am sure all of you have heard the Bush administration get accused of lying to the public... Check out this link to hear the lies right from the horses’ mouth.

Conscious Manipulation, thank you for the concise and thought out response

LOL... everyone, donate your welfare checks

who cares about this guy.... tell us more about the lesbians and the rest of the weirdos

Ok, I just got the file from Legend of Zu...omg it's so funny...

this is just weird... but it looks like you guys really want your own country, and who am I to say it's wrong.... i kind of want my own country too... i think i'll buy some land in Somali somewhere and declare my independence... once Somaliland becomes recognized by anyone except the people that made it up, I think I'll try to get citizenship or whatever benefit they have... Party hardy :^)

ok... is this independance from the Brits or the independance from the Somali Republic?