Ibti and Malika, thank you very much indeed. Malika, I'm half way through reading that long piece, thank you for your contributions and I hear you loud and clear but how do we get everyone on board before we start tackling the issue on banning Burqa? North seems to think that posting an article written by a female from the kingdom, who in her own words said:- While I am living abroad I wear a different style and colour hijab that is conducive to the environment I live in. I choose not to wear the common black abaya in Britain for my own personal reasons that are nobody’s business but my own. But if I ever decide to put on the abaya and niqab the way I do in Saudi Arabia, that also is my own business. is somehow relevant to this discussion of banning. North, do you read the articles you reference? I have a feeling you only read the title grabber and maybe the 1st paragraph and you thought you hit the jackpot, didn't you? Ask yourself, why she puts on the abaya in the kingdom but not in the west? Perhaps, the choice isn't left up to her. You really out did yourself on this one ya North. And what exactly were you trying to achieve by posting this article? That I was right all along and you were dead wrong? tsk tsk tsk

^this is a new low, even for you@Caano. (runaway reporting of all things?) Ibti, Na'ima B. Robert is an individual who equates Islam to a "greasy restaurant" and you want her to be taken serious? She is on a crusade to save the poor, hopeless niqabi's and be their champion, while also selling few hundred books and sister subscription. Can you honestly say she is principled? Does this person even believe waxa ey qoreyso? Please dig up her bio and you will know that I am not making any of this up. Matter of fact, one google search should do the trick. Other than that, I would much rather take you as the champion for women causes, especially niqabis instead of that robert woman any day of the week.

Tuujiye: meeqa dhalaa soo cabtey Alla maxaa ka waashay ninkani ka jawaab su'aasha amxaaryahow kix kix kix Kashafa: dadka iyo wadankaan xoreeneenaa Tuujiye: yaad ka xoreeneeysaan Kashafa: itoobiyaanka sidaan aa ciyaal maamahaan dhab ka eh.

Geelka, thank you very much indeed for your input. I have to be honest here and say that yOu have not added much to the discussion aside from stating the obvious, which is going against the motion to ban burqa.(which is welcome ofcourse) The article 2 version you quoted is a translated section from an unreliable source, which I will leave you to it to search further. I bet you had no clue how many past constitutions the republic had, matter of fact, as soon as you saw my post, you had to dig for any and all information to refute a borrowed source, after all, I didn't write article 2 but borrowed it for informational purpose. Secondly, I did not address you on the other thread the same way I did not address north, in that you were too focused on the topic starter and less focused on the subject and I did not want to take anything away from the discussion, therefore, I went out of my way to start a very healthy debate that even you can part take on, for this reason, I welcome all opinions, even yours, as long as you stay on topic ofcourse. As for the legislators and their crusade to ban any object or symbol that so much as reaks religion is not news, after all, the state's job is to protect its citizens from fundamental religion. Furthermore, the state has no interest in dictating the private matters of its "citizens", matter of fact, they are ensuring the the liberty of the citizen while also protecting the secular position of the state and not undermining the principals of the 5th republic. (this ban is nothing more than assuring public safety, i.e driving, appearing in court, employment discrimination, such as the police force, appearing infront of a judge that may be disruptive to proceedins and distract the judge and even the jury) And as always, North did not share any new news expect recycle old news. Getting back to you Geelka, If you know your history very well, which I doubt you do, you will understand that the French have made various constitution related changes, thats not news, but the discussion is and has always been are you for the ban or are you not, you said you are against the motion of banning Burqa and you stopped it there without going any further. Instead, what you should have done and what you can still do is make a good case against the motion of banning Burqa but make it persuasive for the audience to perhaps go against carrying the motion at the end of this session. As for you continuing to side-step the subject does not do justice for the Burqa ban, after all, neither you or I are expert on French constitution, nor do we have the original document, is there a reason why you dont want to engage in the debate? Please, do not try to side step the topic again, if you do, I will take it as a sign of weakness. As for ME backing up the claim that Burqa is forced on women, you don't have to look far but read the testimonials gathered by women groups attesting to the abuse associated with wearing the garment. But beside that, you and brother North will have to provide evidence supporting your counter claim that the burqa is voluntary and maybe even obligatory and that it is not in fact forced or 'pressured' for women to wear the garment by family members or society. PS:Sulfa, you are either for the motion or against it and when you call the government's call to ban Burqa as internal issue that opponents will either have to live or part with, that is calling for the motion of ban, not going against the motion, sorry but even retracting previous statement will not change the facts. LEI CAPISCE? Pss: Penny for your thoughts: How can any of you oppose a garment that is still being contested for its validity among different muslim factions? If this isn't about Us Vs Them, then I must be out of my mind.

^North reminded me of Meaghan McCain on HBO last week, in which she was schooled by Paul Begala of all people. There were going back and forth with your father did this or your father supported that and all of a sudden Begala was tempted to school her so he reminded her of the time Reagan blamed Carter for the previous administration's mess and she came back with " I wasn't born then" and ofcourse he said, I know about the French revolution but I wasnt born then either, lol.....wallaahi she went pink on live television, disgusting and now North is pulling how old are u question u, in other words, you dont read@ng. Besides, Netanyahu is out of his mind with his outrageous proposal for peace with Palestine.

North, thank you very much indeed. You are approaching the issue of banning the burqa as you said from legal stand point, which means that you need to be reminded that the French government is protected by their own constitution to keep state and religion separate, hence why they went forward with the bill that banned religious symbols in state operated and state supported schools. In article 2 of the French constitution, it states that "the State should ensure the equality of all its citizens before the law and respect all beliefs". In other words, the law has not been broken by the previous ban and the law should not be broken once this ban is made to law. For this reason, the same faith will be dealt the Burqa from being worn in government buildings and government property, parks, roads, etc and it will not become a violation of its own constitution.(after all they will do their homework and get legal advise to see to it that they dont violate individual freedom, through the expression of religion with the ban) However, if the French do not do anything to combat this growing burqa phenomena from its territory, the majority of its citizens would perhaps view the state to be undermining their secular values and thats dangerous when the beliefs of few should be valued more than the view and values of the majority. North, this ban, once its made to law will ensure that individual liberty and religious freedom are protected for as long as its done in the privacy of one's home. After all is done and said, do you still believe this to be in violation of France's constitution ya north? Nassir, THank you very much indeed. Are you not refuting the claim some have made, (north for one) that the garment is viewed by some as being obligatory? Is there any right or wrong answer to the garment in question of whether or not it is a religious duty for a woman to wear the Burqa? Perhaps you could explain to us how this social pressure has come to be viewed by some as a form of voluntarism. Pressure is pressure, wouldn't you agree ?

Shakina, thank you very much indeed. You said that the "number of niqabs in France have grown in the last few years as a direct result of the hijab ban", do you have any proof to back your claim? Also, you appear to be speaking for the motion instead of against it, because you voiced your concern over the growing number of muslim communities without representation, no legislative body that has their interest at heart. Could this admission on your part hold true for the rest of the crowd because of the wide resistance to assimilation? Would you say this is a fair assessment on your part? In other words, is this self inflicted and not really a west Vs the Muslim as some would have us believing, including you?

^Khayr and co tainted this thread. North, bootada meesha aad ku hayso iska daa, ee meesha kale iskeen.

Ladies and Gentlemen, in the midst of the mayhem brought on by usual suspects on the other thread, I had a thought occur to me that led me to believe that we can actually carry about a Doha like debate and this led me to open up this thread, spoilers may not enter. I warn you, I am no Tim Sebastian but I will do everything in my power to see to it that a successful motion is carried out at the end of the session. Rules of the debate: This is an open forum but at the same time we have rules that we must abide by. The instructions are simple, give an opening statement, followed by an outline of your argument and if your name is not on the list of those who already declared their intent for the motion or against the motion, please do state with your opening statement if you are for the motion of banning Burqa or you are against the motion. Once you present your argument I will follow up with a series of questions and each one of you will have ample time to respond. Once we have exhausted all avenues of the motion, we will move on to carry the motion, where by the members of the forum will be welcome to cast a vote on one of our polling features on the site. The following people are for the motion of Banning Burqa:- Myself, Johnny B Marx Sulfa on the banning: if it is related to banning/stopping wearing the niqab in the Public French schools & universities or working places like departments and ministeries, I would keep quite and not argue about it and will call it "Internal Issue", and as a result, the muslim who can't tolerate this banning can leave the country or remove it, coz Niqab is not compulsory in Islam afterall. Ngonge: agrees w/ Zulfa Stoic: Where I'm from they do funny business with Burqa Qalbi Madax Adeyg: understand banning burqa's, niqaabs, basically anything that conceals one's face especially at schools and government institutions for security reasons Against the motion are:- Resistance" no, hence why he has no say on how Muslim dress, only Allah decrees on how one of his flocks dresses or not. Ms DD: It is encouraging to me and I do pray for them whenever I see a sister wearing niqab..for most of us dont have to bottle Strawberry & Cream: the veil represents a visual assault to western virtues, plain and simple Torres aka North: the Burqa, REGARDLESS whether or not you like it or agree with it, is a voluntary (some say obligatory) act of religious observance. Imtithal: How can someone be forced to dress in a way they dnt want to? specially in France? ...of course the answer is they chose to.... you ppl just dnt want to admit. My opening statement: In article one of the French constitution, it clearly states that "France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic". Therefore, there should be no reason why any of you should be surprised of the latest news coming out of the republic regarding of the possible ban of the Burqa, Taliban's most priced possession. With that said, I can't help but address the garment for its worth. What is the purpose of the veil? Who dictates what a women should wear, certainly not the mullah next door but then who? Your brother, husband, your imaam? Who exactly? Furthermore, men for centuries have told woman what to do and what to say, is it so bad that the French are now doing their part to see that their secular state remains in its current state, secular, separate from religious dogma. Is it really so bad? This brings me to the subject of the motion about the Burqa ban in public places. Do you support the ban or are you against the motion. The floor is all yours.

^eey aa cunay not ayeee

lol@abti johnny Fabre, paradise is that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

North, the philosophy behind secularism is rationale and logic and neither one is associated with the Burqa. PS: answer my questions or stop wasting space

JB, Abti, you are right in that Burqa has a negative connotation and it never did nor will it ever be remembered for anything more the harsh domestic acts committed against afghan women by the taliban regime.

North, why aad oops u dhehee? You dont have an opinion, you never did. IF you had an opinion, you would answer the following questions ya north. What is your take on the Burqa issue? Should muslims conform to secular values? and what is your take on Burqa?

^ the choice is always left up to the individual. (go home)

C & H, hora, can I ask you a question? Do you suffer from A.D. D? It took you not once but two attempts to admit that you were mistaken, even then you accused me of hating on you when all it was I was trying to do was help.

^Ofcourse the burqa is harmful to others. (read the part where she is on the driver seat)

^the old argument of 'us' VS 'them', just as I predicted. Stop blaming the west for all your problems, instead tell me how you feel when you cross paths with a fellow muslimah covered from head to toe, supporting the latest Burqa on hot humid day? Does it anger you that she is suffocating inside that black veil? Or do you not care? As for me its incomprehensible. I can't tell you enough how angry I get when I see a muslimah on the driver seat with her veil or a muslimah carrying a grocery bag and carrying the 'drape' as well as managing two of her children, all the while crossing the street. It is dangerous and wrong and it is unnecessary and the few that make this a west vs muslims are delusional. But all that aside, do muslims who migrate to France know the secular values thats deeply rooted in France's history? Do they respect those secular values? If so, they should respect the state's wishes of removing religion symbols from public sphere. After all, Hijab was banned not long ago from public institutions and Burqa will be dealt the same faith and its only appropriate that the title be called Burqa and Hijab Ban. As for the rest of you, ask yourselves, why should Burqa's ban matter to you as an individual, especially in France?

Zulfa, the only difference is the Burqa is a total lockdown style, where as the Niqab looks like a woman's Ski Mask Besides, the debate is just starting, nothing is written on stone and today President Sarkozy expressed his support. But because the French have started debate, it does not mean that we can't have our own conversation. Come to think of it, this is a sad day for muslims all over the world when the French are having a debate that concerns people of muslim faith (excluding geeljire), especially women who should have been front and centre of this discussion, instead Sarkozy is speaking on behalf of our women. Speaking of Geelka, the geele brothers seem to be out in full force caawa, how about that? Familiar territory boys eh? A mask debate of all things. Does the Burqa remind you of the day you boys will strap a belt all over your bodies in route to paradise. Aside from that geelka, I know where you are heading. You want to make this topic 'us' Vs "them" issue and it isn't. I asked you a simple question, kindly answer my question or move out of the way. Do you agree with the French's proposal for banning the Burqa or do you disagreE? If the ladder, support your argument. As for Nuune, here is a Modern day Niqab worn by Lil Kim:- Care to read this lady's facial expression since u are such an expert? or the real Burqa also known as afghan women attire, found here:- and here is another example of Niqab:-

I agree with the French in calling for the ban of Burqa in public. The French President Sarkozy in his address said: "The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement _ I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic." He couldn't be more right. Do you agree with this call for the ban of Burqa? My only worry is that they will not include the niqab and it will just be the Burqa. Source

^ I agree, she doesn't have to explain herself but she chooses to explain herself, therefore I want her to explain to me how a humanity discipline can receive an undergraduate degree in the sciences when in fact, the humanity discipline almost always get arts degree, especially literature, unless she has double major and one of them being sciences but I don't think thats the case. Possible explanations: A) You attended a state university that does not follow tradition B) You attained your degree from online university C) You just love to argue about nothing D) All of the above

Hence, the less we hear from your lips about Al-Shabaab trying to recreate some kind of "Somali Nationalist State" (on their own myopic and crooked way, no less), and, therefore saying on their behalf that their action is in one piece with that sort of a long term objective of that kind, the more others may be incline to detain themselves at your behest; so that they could ascertained what really you are saying that is worthwhile of their time, indeed. Brrrrrrrrrrrr, Brrrrrrrrr, Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I will have you know that I hold a B.S degree in literature Kaama yeelin eedo. Waayo, literature is considered under the humanities category. BTW, ma classic literature and philosphy degree aa qabtaa mase english language and literature or medieval literature etc? For a teacher, you have quite a temper.

I kid, I kid but not about collaborating with just Ethiopia but all of our neighbours. If you have paid close attention to the renewed fighting in recent days and various insurgent stronghold in some parts of the country and read the latest news coming out of Somalia, you know that the government no longer can be relied upon to deliver the security and stability they promised the Somali people on their own. I say this with the utmost respect for his honorable Sharif Sheikh Ahmed and his loyal and diligent servants, the body that makes up the Transitional Federal Government. In no way or shape or form will I ever withdraw my support for this government or any government that will be formed in the future. However, we can not deny that this government's efforts to combating extremists saw very little improvement. In-fact, we can no longer fool ourselves into thinking that this government can execute its mandate forefully without losing more ground to the insurgents. The insurgency style of warfare is far too advanced and cunning for the newly trained officers that make up the somali security force and army. Therefore, reinforcement is in dire need. The government needs to be far more vocal than it has been in the last few months or with the news of today when it comes to military aid. They need to engage their neighbour and convince them that their participation in this conflict is in their interest as well as Somalia's interest and the region as a whole. For this reason, I believe that the Transitional Federal Government should do more than get consensus from the parliament or speak through the media, they need to be fiercely engaged in talks with the neighbouring countries. This means that their private talks with Kenya officials needs to be elevated and Kenya needs to be on board in order for the urgent call for military aid to be be answered and troops to be deployed by the neighouring countries with the support of the united nations and the security council. Furthermore, I believe that with the help of the Kenyan government and our eagerly waiting axmaaro brothers, we can get the governments of Burundi and Uganda to commit more troops as well as gather much needed support from Rwanda, Djibouti and Tanzania before the La princessa sinks. The challenge will be Kenya but let us wait and see how the movers and shakers of the TFG side works to secure Kenya's participation. As for the rest of us, the time has come for us to make some serious decisions regarding our people and our country. We can no longer afford to waste time and energy into fuelling this on going war by choosing sides.(financing the insurgency war or giving moral support which helps support the opposition message across the globe to anyone with an ear shout is dangerous) We need to decide whether our own need to self destruct out-weights the welfare of the 3 million displaced refugees, who could run out of food and water at any moment Somaliyeey, what is important to you? Will you lend a hand to the 3 million displaced families or continue to send $50 a month to adeero and abti so that they can instruct our young men into carrying suicide attacks against our own people? Somaliyeey, what would it be? I know what is important to me and it is not Sharif or Dahir Aweys (whose death cannot be confirmed or denied) and it isn't turki, nor is it the countless other officials who instruct the Shabaab group to carry attacks on somali civilians. As for me, my priority is with the real victims of this conflict, the real losers of the war, the ones who continue to lose their loved ones at a rapid rate. My support is with the victims who no longer call mogadishu and area home, the 8yr old orphaned girl who is raising her two younger siblings because Shabaab mortar killed her parents. This child and all the others like her should matter to you all not warlords masquerading as wadaados. Your misguided sense of loyalty should be directed at the innocent civilians who need every dollar you can give in order for them to be fed, clothed and sheltered. Can these people count on you? As far as the renewed fighting is concerned, no amount of suicide attack will stop the world from allowing Somalia into falling in the hands of extremist, not today, not tomorrow and not ever. We all know the ending of this narrative but at what cost?

^ It was expected but it has nothing to do with his past criticism of Ahmadinejad. I'm sure if another man was the incumbent with the same result, he would denounce him as well.( this is not personal for the grand ayatollah) BTW, wax xun Ahmadinejad maku oran, except to be responsible and to not alienate the country from the outside world. Remember, this may not come as a surprise to you but to some, this is news, stop being a spoiler. This Ayatollah was always about the people and he always abided by the principles that led the country into the revolution, he has never forgotten, where as the closet freak leaders that make up the body of the experts that select the leader are out doing the nasty with little iranian boys and they dare call his teddy a liberal who has lost his ways and then dismiss him for the succession and then jail him, while continuing to rape young boys.