Raxiima, first of all you are right on my mockery of the hijab, it was uncalled for. But please also realise that there is no established stantardisation of the hijab, each culture that has taken islam how made its own relections on whats acceptable and to be honest with you i dont see a problem with that. what i dont agree with its the Abu Dawood narrates that ... no part of her body should be seen but this-and he pointed to his face and hands This is third-party news, accepted or not, it relates information 3 hops down the communication chain. Now come the questions? if you can take what Abu Dawood says as the firm unbaised, not embedded in specific cultural or social norms, then fine. but you cant expect this to imply longer/bigger the better for every one. now we are straying fron the point. I agree bashiirs atricle is not the best written, it address the subject with an attempt at humour, i agree with you that this might not be the best way to aproach it. however you forget that the man is addresing wahhabism, not islam. Its like saying i am 'protestant and disagree with catholics'. if you disagree that wahhabism is a movement and not the one and true interpertation of islam, then yes the article is offensive, otherwise its a man expressing his opinions. my view, people come to understanding when they are able to think about a subject. without questing the motive of a reason, you cant understand it. This form of discourse is sadly lacking and the justifications offered for its absense are as always used to perpetuate ignorance and control people.

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne: I am talking about they, and they know what I am talking about. Now, my question is are you one of them, the ultra-secularists at large in SOL? how do u become one can i ask? is there a procedure, do we need to apply? do they provide training? and what kind of qualifications or consesions do they offer?

and you'd think she's got it all out by now! :rolleyes:

^ do u think it might be a part of your duty to be able to feed, clothe, educate and occasionally remember their names also?

lets address them one at a time, Originally posted by Khayr: 1. -T.F. and Munir P. critique muslims, so does Bashir G. Isnt that the point of a discourse? Originally posted by Khayr: 2. -T.F. and Munir P. are considered as a 'Progressive muslims' and from what I have read of Bashir G.'s writing, he can be considered as a 'Progressive muslim' and what does that imply? Originally posted by Khayr: 3. -Some folks consider T.F. to be an 'apostate', likewise some people consider Bashir G. to be an 'apostate'. why? Originally posted by Khayr: 4. But is one worse the other? define worse? Originally posted by Khayr: 5. Is it right to call them 'Apostates'? because you disagree with them? Originally posted by Khayr: But what if they are justing read an ayat from the quran and really not speaking 'JUST THEIR OPINION This difficult to take this out of context. The point you refer to discusses opinions about: ' imams calling for death and destruction of kafirs AND fellow muslims .... 'f they persist, kick them out'. So the point is very serious. This is not a disagreement on whether an imaam should be able to grant a mariage licence, but a death sentence. For me at least, thats outside the scope of human juristiction. Originally posted by Khayr: CALL A SPADE A SPADE outside the scope of the basic tenants i find it difficult to see how you justify this. look at the muslim umma, and within that there is variance in interpertation. this does not refer to core beliefs, but customs and practices, a pakistani muslims values and norms are not ness. the same as a saudi's, a ugandan's, a canadians or a somali's. now if your interpertation is correct and possibly disagrees with any of these what you saying is 'they are all wrong'. now this is not an accident. it is a basic factor in islam which has helped it spread, because it is more easily accomodating to local value i.e. islam had travelled far more consideraly with trade than invasion. Islam does not instinctively have a heirarchy, there are no chief imans, like the pope and so on, there highly respected people, but they do not have the power to systematically create a uniform orthodox like the pope. In islam everyone is equally close, which means they have no superioty other than their wisdom and knowledge to make change. Now this means we have evaluate the value of wisdom and learning, which again is culturally bound. so in this context how do you define your 'right' from their 'wrong' Originally posted by tHe oNe aNd OnLy : shir'a into western society is like trying to mix water and oil, it is simply imposible wholesale intergration probably not, but that doesnt stop you from practicing your faith or follwing a shir'a as apart in your own life. The individualist thing allows you to do that.

aah god bless them all

dude, i dont really think it compares, bashiir was voicing an opinion on what he saw as a paradigm shift in the cultural values of somali's with regard to the place and value of our culture. This is about a specific action to change the legislative structure of a soverieng state. If ppl feel that canada does not suite their moral values, they should try to get them introduced through the political and legislative processes that are available. If their ideas are seen to be of value to the population i'm sure they will be accepted. if not they will be rejected. If they cant live with the rejection they should pack their bags and head for a place which implemen ts them.... As far jihad goes.... i think blood letting as source of ajar has got to such peoples heads. Judgement is not ours to make.. i'm not too sure about were being progressive come in .

ngogne, thanks for the dance, it did distract me for about 35 sec. which is a full 20 sec longer than my normal attention span.. but still i NEED to know what the shell that phrase means .. surely you can help .... please..

Originally posted by Rahima: This goes the same for those who are mocking the hijab right here in this thread... Raxiima, abaayo, surely you dont me! and i thought we were friends ... Originally posted by Rahima: Mr. Goth sees the developments and re-awakening of Islam yet chooses to fight it. There is a big difference between the likes of this man and misfortunate forefathers who did not have access to the proper Islam. Sis, i have to disagree with you on this. we're suffering more misfortune today than our forefathers did.. and what they did suffer, they did it in their land and next to their people. The misfortune here is the way religion is discussed, it is yet another divider.. litterally sectioning the righteous from the dammed .. and often you have to decide which side you fall in on. maybe its the time of year i don't know, but as far as i understood, a better understanding of religion was supposed to enlighten you and give tolerance, wisdom and patience to think, and think about the world around you. here it acts like armour, > i throw my hadith at you > but you defelect it with a sura > ahh but my fatwa is comming in from behind with the quadruple upper cut ... why, i don't know.... i could intellectualise and say blah blah migration, blah, insecurity, blah, i could be a revivalist and something about rediscovering a lost wisdom .. were and when it was lost i dint .. nor do i know the roots of any insecurity. but it would be nice if each interesting discussion was not reduced to the righteous and the dammed or whose armour is hiding more cunning hadiths;

Originally posted by Sophist: I was actually in the gym .... The gym! lord fordid! anyhow has anyone found out what "uncover the precipice under everyday prattle and forces entry into oppression's closed rooms" ... means yet, i really am curious

dont sound so glum dude, there is always the next time.... for all we know we might see u're skinny **** up there some time anyhow, some woman turns out to be Harold Pinter who is described as: " ... his plays uncovers the precipice under everyday prattle and forces entry into oppression's closed rooms" ... if some one could be kind enough to translate what that means to me i'll appreciate it.. ... any how congrats to harry and next time, sophist my man were expecting results

either way i dont much care, i mean look at it this way, some one is speaking for a nation, not a qabiil. What ever his intensions and i'm sure there are many if he has managed to get to this position, its a start. we can at least start to discuss what is good or bad for a nation now.... Libaax, they train them at the Insurgency Centre

very intersting interview, thanks olol look at the man tho' would you trust him, he looks so sinister, -- i figured it, its the left eye, its like a cartoon bad guy ..

Originally posted by iPod Athena: Our cause? hehe. Iga fagow yarow! come on, you'll make a great press secratary, imagine the power u'll have over all media!

Originally posted by Sophist: Caano, how are you old boy? I have been "busy"; just been overwhelmed by the modern slavery----- working in capatalistic world. How about you, what have you been up to? i've been well, still trying to optimise modern slavery for a capitalist world, anyhow good to see your keeping your end up Elysian, Bin Ladin in our hearts, sounds interesting, i'll keep an eye out for it thanks

Originally posted by iPod Athena: (even for unscrupulous beings ) are u calling me unscrupulous? at least join our cause before labelling it

Originally posted by Socod_badne: No to tents, yes to dirac. Whose with me? the ASM - vice presidency is yours dude, my warmest congratulations the honarable Socod_badne of Ottawa ... we need more members people.. high-level organisational posts are going like hot cakes

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne: ... Alle-ubaahne, further to the post above, you must differentiate between spiritual and academic learning. Did you know that it was the Abbasid and Umayyad empires that saved the works of the Greek philosophers by translating them - in search of more knowledge and a deeper understanding of the world. They refined chemistry, maths, physics, literature, in short the basis of modern science directly derives from their methods, and the philosophies of modern world result from their diligence, hardwork and curiosity to understand and discover the works of th past. Didi u also know that they were Muslims, inspired by Islam to understand the natural world around and apply their ideas. Over 1000 yrs ago, these people found a comfortable understanding between between the scholarly and spiritual. The modern ultra-conservative view that suggests otherwise has its basis in 19th century Victorian culture of the UK, that felt threatened by the pace of change and felt a puritan and simpler way of life could be found by ... well being ultra-conservative about religion. This doesn't aim to take credit way from where its due, its fantastic that universities in Somalia are producing wonderfully versed students, but they are derelicting their duties if they cannot produce academic scholars as well. haruun Thanks for that, could you provide the source please.

Originally posted by Sky: I'm very shocked of the path a portion .... Dude what you posted earlier was ignorant, idiotic and plain offensive, just end it there, ain't no need to draw more attention to it

Originally posted by Abrar: Do you think he will win? lets hope so the competition is tuff, but i dont think he is an outsider, lets hope he does win

thanks rahima

ok, to end this debate i'll say it ... i like my girls skinny not and repeat not in tents, end of story the Anti-Saudization movement (ASM) to keep our girls skinny starts here, comrades, we need people and non-draconian principles with scarfs if they choose to do so.

Marco, on behalf of all us we are sad to read that you were a victim of such atrocious attacks, and hope that you will see beyond the nationality of the attackers.

^Old man long time no see, how goes? interesting, though i find Nuridiin's books a little hard to get into

OlOL, ok i read it, i didnt understand it, who's doing who? .. pls explain, (minus big words like inteligencia) thanks