Originally posted by Nur: For you to write off any other explanation for our decadence other than our own self inflicted wound is simplistic at best, Yes it is simplistic, but ultimately you are can only change your actions, to other, your opinion are just another choice. Therefore if we're being practical, for this reason if nothing else i dont see the point in the blames you lay. We know that muslims are victimised, we know that they are oppressed, but muslims are implicitly complicit for fostering cultures that perpetuate the victim mentality. Now tell me how many lectures you've been to that you about the hardship and pain of muslims suffer in the world and ask for your contribution to support the struggle. And how many tell you how muslims can integrate their societies in the world and better the quality of life for the ordinary people, the ask for your support to foster businnesses to provide livelyhoods for muslim? Originally posted by Nur: On a personal level, what should each and every Muslim do to reverse this evil cycle? Your response will show the depth of your understanding of the problems at hand. Dude, to be honest phrasing your question in a manner of an exam whose worth you judge i find kinda insulting - however i'll go along with ya and try to cover my back, so prepare your pigeon hole. Personal: treat everybody how you would like to be treated Religiously: treat everybody how you would like to be treated Econonicaly: treat everybody how you would like to be treated Political: support and foster institution that aim to treat everybody how you'd like to be treated what will this do for muslims? give ordinary muslims the opportunity to better their quality of life and have a collective voice with respect and legitemacy rather than the mixture pitty and indifference we currently recieve in a world that is more than happy to turn over the weak. Now back to your orginal proposition of the 'Conspiracy To Undermine Islam' yes there is one, religion is exclusive, it has a basic of us not them, the aim of every religion is to show you that its set of believes are it not the others. What your aiming to ask is 'why are muslims all too often the victims of humiliation, abuse and riducle?'

Originally posted by Kashanre: This is the victory. A precedent has been set and freedom of the press shalt not be a mask for anti-Islamic propaganda. For the frowning internal critics, you can be silent all you want. Let those other's speak out and defend their faith in any which way. Kashanre, i dont know how to say this, but what we have gained right now is a hollow victory. I remember was listening to radio on last thursday with british news paper editors saying ' the images are neither funny or clever and we dont see the point of unnessarily insulting a part of our population for them'. All that violance has achieved now is given the nessecity, we're not against demonstrations or boycotts. We're against the violance, and posters that say 'the fantastic four' referring to the london bombers. If the aim of the cartoonist was to portray muslims as violent savages, they failed, but the hooligans succeeded.

nuur saaxiib, without waxing lyrical about my 'fro and yes my smile is a killa, lets discuss the point. > luxury Yes i do have the luxury of sibbing my fav. caano geel, in fact as i write this, it is black cardamom expresso with a bit of hot water and one spoon of sugar, and i am grateful to the mercy of allah for giving me the opportunity. > throwing blame right and left 1. there is problem with the muslim world --> yes 2. its the fault of blah --> no, IT IS OURS > having a different opinion a Nomad is not neccessarily a stoopid, Yes your right, but depends on the point. I dont like your point because it absolved us - yes me and you of the blame. Ultimately, the argument you present is that of salvation, come with us and we will save you and i dont buy it, if for nothing else institutions in this world care more for their greed than their faith. You want to see a stable and successfull muslim umma, do a bit of intraspection and try to address the real problems that face the ordinary people. So since we're not kids and lets start talking about building sand banks before we start decorating.

^ u baahne ninyahow maad iska aamustid. Afka markaad furtid dameer naacdiisa uun baa kaa soo baxda

^ B I completely agree with your senitement of the comparison. But i dont think that a Religious hatred bill is the answer. What your talkig about is respect, and sensitivity to peoples believes. Religion for us is as much a part of identity as race and ethnicity, however this is not the case for most of europe and especially in the uk. Gagging people simply does not stop them and if we've learn anything it's that it gives them false excuses. I think what your saying can only be achieved through education and awareness and this i fear requires opennes to dialog that is free to pose questions. People in the end will respect your believes if they can empathise, and they empathise, if they can understand them, not if you gag them.

Nice pics kooley, thanks . Yeniceri, dont worry man, your ancestors were swedish suits not these disgracefull skinny savages

^ yes guys thats exactly it. I stupidly tried to explain it away with the chronic and self imposed lack of good governance, responsability, education, the poverty, fraud, corruption, accountability, respect for human rights. I mean how dump, i should of realised it was the isrealis pulling the strings and all we needed was the caliphate revolution. Let the heads roll.

^ the point is not about the insult and hurt caused by the depictions. But how we conduct ourselves to raise our concerns. Exactly what effect will be expected from carrying a 'Europe:The Real Holocaust is coming Soon' placard, or burning down a building?

Burning flags and effigies - the poor [Muslim?] man's protest. Wonder what it will achieve?

^So what are you saying we aught to do?

Zahra welcome, both to the sol community and its mayhem, as in everything you will find variety and both to your liking and disliking. More importantly somalis like to argue about anything and every thing regardless of whether they know anything about it or not, agree or disagree - it's just in our nature. So please dont take too much offense when senseless crap pours out of some people and give back as good as u get it .. welcome

^^ what the hell is going on is the only question in my mind. i ride to work thru there everyday and at nite the number of somalis hanging by in the drug dealers corner and those dealing is getting more and more while none of them look older than 18-20

Ibtisam, it appears to b true, i spoke to my father who told me that it was being discussed at the local community centre today. The lack of any info seems to be prooving the met chiefs accusations of media racism wrt to coverage of crimes against and minority communities.

I read this in the metro today, and couldnt believe it, looking for more detailed stuff. But it has been comfirmed that 25 somali boys were in inolved in the stabbing of another somali kid in a bus at camden, london over the weekend. The reports say most were captured and some escaped by kicking in the windows of the bus. It's just tragic....

B agreed on both counts

^ idil as xiin said Kii waxaa kuula yimaada; yur dheh marka, yur

aaah you gotto love indian eccentricity

^ lol no i know what you mean girls i hate getting complements, i mean, man some girls are on hormone overdrive, its like their brain is swimming in feremones, their constantly coming up to me and are like ' aboowe this, wallal that, saaxiib blah'. Its like just so irretating, you just want them to roll their tongues back up into their mouths.

vous le vous So do u wanna tell me this so-labelled "MUSLIM GAY PEER" is still a muslim...?When you answer that, I will be happy to go on.. I'm afraid i cant give a definitive answer to that, i believe nor can you. We may say what we think is right or wrong, but ultimately only allah will know B. the provision or the lack of orthodoxy for its own sake i dont think is ever a good stance. That said, its a sad norm that the most difficult debate/questions mostly comes from the frindges of a society. Its these people that are most disenchanted - the middle ground is normally content. Therefore we have two options: 1. reject them and say aaah well they are too radical any way and have lost their way. 2. engade them and ask why they have their opinions and he try to understand what it tells about our society. This way at least you take the lead in the debate. and yes we do have the right to dismiss but we should be so quick to do it. For example, there may be literal contradictions in the quran but to say with any conviction that the quran contains absolute contradictions, would require i understand a logical basis to examine it and know all the its intentions. therefore with such text, there can only be contradictions in my interpretation.

now lets put the gay and his 'third way' thing to one side, and if we are willing to think for a moment i think its simple to realise that religion and faith are two very different things, you can have a religion with out having much faith and faith in something with out religion. Islam has a great intellectual heritage. It was the enterprise of early muslim empires that kindled the foundations of the modern science and politics, their debates and searches for new knolwedge led to the examination of lost knowledge (greek philosophy and so on) and its extension. The foundations of the hadiths is not theological but intelectual, i.e. people asking how does and an action correspond with text and how much support does my interpertation get from my peers. Now having said that, i believe the point the man is making is that we are ignoring this heritage of debate. And i anticipate a flaming for this, but amogst Islams strengths has been its ability to foster debate and encourage understanding from the basis that people are different, they have different cultures which also influence their lives. So implicitly it accepts difference, look at the variety of culture and norms in the islamic world, what they have in common is small compared to what they differ in, but they are still able to come to basic understanding, and crutially these evolve and change with time and new knowledge. The point in this is that religion is too complex a concept for anyone to claim full comprehension. If you want to test this, examine your life and see how it fits with a literal word-for-word translation of the quran. Then ask your self how you reconcile the differences. I think judgment is the most interesting in this, i remeber reading an article (which i cant find now), about why every adulterer is not stoned to death and every theif does not have their arm cut of. The point the author was making was that life is complex and religion even more so, and serves as a guide with which you cant escape the need for individual deliberation and common sense - further this is partly the point, you have to constantly ask yourself how does what i know and believe help me judge the situation, otherwise you have to disengade your brain. And this is the basic point. Modern muslims are too often willing to ignore of hard questions leaving it to others to make the decison for them or relay on an incomplete understanding of literal text. And if you say you completely relay on the literal quran, your saying that you know and understand its every subtlety and nuance, and this such an objective i beleive is impossible for any one us, since we always to fall back on faith when knowledge is not enough. Ahura, how can you hear anything worthwile, if you dont listen to anyone that 'speaks out'. callypso, Kashanre, Liban,tHe oNe aNd OnLy, by be-litteling his argument you effectively dis-engading your self from the debate, how does what you believe have any significance or do you expect to have an environment which respects and responds to you needs if your not at least willing to express them. Rendez-vous on this point least is willing to express - though i fear he may not be the one throw a stone when the adulterer is brought in.

Dude though the UN hijacking is regretable, if m,y memory serves me correctly the TXG signed the $50 'i dont quite understand where its gonna get it from' million deal was a direct result of UN ship being hijacked, not the pther way round. Further the reason there is no one there 'protecting' may have something to do with there being no money to pay for it with. that aside, isnt a navy the acting on the self interest of a givernment and isnt this quite often ummm murky my friend? -- i think possibly the one way to think of them is as entrepreneurial navy

So there are numerous recent stories of somali pirates hijacking and looting ships off the somali coast, the lastest i read earlier is the release of four Taiwanese fishing boats.. Now the likelyhood is that these boats are illegally fishing off the coast and environmentalists report the whole sale destruction of coral through barbaric the methods modern fishing techniques. So given the state of afairs, there is a valid argument i beleive to support these pirates since fear of them is probably the only thing keeping fishing trawlers from completely destroying the coastal waters and life they support. In fat they are the closest thing we have to a navy. That does not mean they acting alturistically to protect the waters, but at least in seaking their own interests they are proving a severly lacking and needed service. So is it time to say 'support your local pirates' to keep the remaining fish on our coast. what do you guys and gals think?

My complete condolences to his family and friends also, allah ha u naxriisto, yes, when and what happend?

Not being a gabar, i hope u dont mind that i barge in. aaah too many choices. shehehheheh, good choice on tracey, i prefer 'fast car' tho'. ahura, dido sucks and all she does is moan. katerina, you big apple tart, Socod_badne dont go there, he's gonna turn u an alchoholic, born friday nina is just nina and i'm still in love with her 'see line woman' also always has me jumping around howling and shrieking like a buffoon. choices, choices, choices, i hate them, and the problems is all those songs that you love and dont understand a word the singer is saying, and then there are the instrumentals. so the thing for me is that the song kinda helps develop my mood rather than a a song for a mood, so any one of Fela Kuti's reightous rants hit the spot for me. khayr for you i think max romeo's chase the devil might be suitable theme tune ---- Lucifer son of the mourning, I'm gonna chase you out of earth! I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase satan out of earth I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase the devil out of earth I'm gonna send him to outa space, to find another race I'm gonna send him to outa space, to find another race Satan is an evilous man, But him can't chocks it on I-man So when I check him my lassing hand And if him slip, I gaan with him hand I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase satan out of earth I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase the devil out of earth I'm gonna send him to outa space, to find another race I'm gonna send him to outa space, to find another race Him haffi drop him fork and run Him can't stand up to Jah Jah son Him haffi lef' ya with him gun Dig off with him bomb I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase satan out of earth I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase the devil out of earth I'm gonna send him to outa space, to find another race I'm gonna send him to outa space, to find another race Satan is a evilous man, But him can't chocks it on I-man So when I check him my lassing hand And if him slip, I gaan with him hand I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase satan out of earth I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase the devil out of earth I'm gonna send him to outa space, to find another race I'm gonna send him to outa space, to find another race Move ya with your gun Mi sey fe lef' ya with your bomb... --- any how a song that herks me to tears every time is lady day's (billie holiday) version of strange fruit: Southern trees bear strange fruit, Blood on the leaves and blood at the root, Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze, Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees. Pastoral scene of the gallant south, The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth, Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh, Then the sudden smell of burning flesh. Here is fruit for the crows to pluck, For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck, For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop, Here is a strange and bitter crop. ------ and lets not forget Prince in the days when he had a name doing 'When Doves Cry' ... aooooohh too too too many songs to choose from -- tapping his feet to paul simons 'diamonds on the soles of her shoes' as he types this.

idil, ren and stimpy was and remains disturbed. which what is so great about it