xiin saxiib call it what you will, but nothing but an endless power struggle has happened since then. Therefore as to 'who' destroyed somalia- that is a not a question, no one did. collective kleptomania did. Now if you read what i have wriiten, you augth to see i have been equally scourneful to both sides. However, and possibly foolishly, i tend to be in favour of the gar gaduud, rather than what i see as the morally bankrupt hydra that calls it self a government. That doesnt mean i trust the cimaamad gaduud brigade, but for me at least, they achieved legendary status when they organised something as trivial as mogadishu resident cleaning up the city (making up for their earlier destruction). And so in my heart at least, i'd like to believe that their reactionary form of islam and rule will be tammed by the populations will, when things settle. ps. maybe you should market that tribalist sniffer of yours, lodrh knows it could be a hit. Imagine the possibilities G. Being one of those hated secularists i agree with you (sorry if that tars you). But these lot arnt the saviours, they are the curse. Their power struggles have been by words for how many ways to split the hypothetical loot - so 17 years is enough of a chance for any group to loot and sort it out. These people arnt nationalists, and what you say is not achieved by some form of clan power egality, but an idiological one, knowledge of which they are utterly corrupt.

G. in which case are you saying that you are choosing the parasites you know over the band new second hand ones? - if so why?

xiinfaniin Appease if you must but me thinks you could do it without resorting to barrage of insults saaxiib, as anyone that knows me will tell you, what i said there is light. They are certainly not nation builders, so if you can think of a better terms for them given their actions umm since 1989 please tell me and i will use it. Taliban some may say that your name alone is an insult against moral decency. but we wont go there. G. yes these 'throw at will' verbs are in effect stick on badges, anyone can throw them and anyone can wear them, they are meaningless for conveying anything wothwhile. But the point still remains, something was and still is required to get the leaches off.

G. umm i think you know what my opinions on power hungry despots, kleptomaniacs and mass murderers are....

Waryaa Sheiq maskax lah -- are you goading for war safe behind the cheap 60hz glow of your pc monitor. War edeb yeelo oo diinta aad intaas dadka dhuunta u galineysid soo baro.

norf, in Mr Garrett Jones, oppinion, we at least how the CIA's men form their opinions .. lordh help us.

Norf, couldnt agree with you more on the man ...

One of four men on trial over the death of Bradford Pc Sharon Beshenivsky has been convicted of her murder. Pc Beshenivsky, 38, was shot dead after a bungled armed robbery last November. Jamma admitted firing the fatal shot but said it was an accident Yusuf Abdillh Jamma, 20, of Whitmore Road, Small Heath, Birmingham, had admitted robbery and two firearms offences but denied murder. Another defendant, Raza Ul-Haq Aslam, 25, was cleared of murder and manslaughter. The jury is still considering verdicts on two other men. Jamma was convicted following an 11-week trial at Newcastle Crown Court. He was found guilty of possessing a MAC-10 machine gun and a 9mm pistol with intent to endanger life, and two counts of possessing the firearms. He admitted robbery part-way through the trial. Aslam, of St Pancras Way, Kentish Town, north London, was cleared of all charges except for robbery, and the jury will continue its deliberations on that charge. Pc Sharon Beshenivsky Sharon Beshenivsky had been police officer for nine months Brothers Faisal Razzaq, 25, and Hassan Razzaq, 26, from Sebert Road, Forest Gate, east London, were found guilty of robbery and possessing the firearms, but the jury is still deliberating on the two charges of possession of the firearms with intent to endanger life and murder. Mr Justice Smith told the jury they could return a majority verdict of 10-1 on the other charges. A fifth man, Muzzaker Imtiaz Shah, previously admitted murder. Shah had also admitted robbery and firearms offences. He was cleared of the attempted murder of Pc Beshenivsky's colleague Pc Teresa Milburn earlier in the trial. Pc Beshenivsky was shot and killed as she arrived at the Universal Express travel agents in Bradford city centre on 18 November 2005, the day of her youngest daughter's fourth birthday. Pc Milburn was seriously injured when she was gunned down in the street as the robbers escaped with little more than £5,000. Jamma told the jury he fired the fatal shot from the 9mm pistol, but did not intend to kill Pc Beshenivsky. Muzzaker Shah Muzzaker Shah pleaded guilty to murder early in the trial He repeatedly denied the prosecution's suggestions that his version of events was a lie "to try to help Muzzaker Shah" get off the attempted murder of Pc Milburn. Aslam told the court he had no part in the robbery or murder and was simply "in the wrong place at the wrong time." He said he believed he was entitled to a £100,000 reward for helping police catch Pc Beshenivsky's killers because he rang Crimestoppers and passed on information. Faisal Razzaq admitted he was round the corner from the travel agents when the shootings took place but said he was at a takeaway and denied acting as a look-out. Hassan Razzaq was the only defendant who chose not to give evidence at the trial. Two other suspects, Jamma's brother Mustaf and a man called Piran Ditta Khan, remain on the run from police.

Lordhy they have a blue cimaamad traitor in their midst!! some one should warn the good sheiqs

look i dont understand the argument here. Its like Typhoid competing with Malaria as to which will wipe out the population in the long run. A despot is a despot and will not give up power, you have to take it from them. On the otherhand the glorious army of the cimaam gaduud (and their new ninja squad -- and yes any one pulling out such proganda squads is asking to have their hypocrisy mocked), will save your soul or kill you in the process. So gentlemen, what will be your poison, typhoid or malaria.

Ninyahow, marathon baad tiri. that is 21 to 26 miles aka ~ 34 km to 42km. not a third of that. I demand at least a second lap to get your african genes working properly

khayr, i see the point your getting at, but rather than "scientific findings negating religious standardizations", what is your perspective on time and situation. By that i mean, we take for grated that *practical* rules are put forward in good intent so they may be well practical and useful/used. So if you live in the 6th century. i think you would be hard pressed to tell people wait for 1400 yrs and you can use DNA testing, but until then use, this. Therefore, hypothetically if these rules were put forward today, do you think they will make use of benefits offered by the technology and society of today? btw, i think murder, is a crime, but *sometimes* the perpetrator cannot be held responsible for their actions - children and the mentally ill are exaples taht quickly come to mind. I think its important that we acknowledge this, because, intentional punishment without mercy is just cruelty and that is also a crime.

sophist, Qui potest capere capiat! [edit] btw . waryaa, how dare you!

lol @ me, i swear my school art teacher told me never to do art... and it seems clear why how about now that i've stolen some else's ascii art... ........-===-. .......|..........| .......|..........| .......()_____() .......||_____|| ........W.....W ........|------| ........|------| ........|------| ........|------| ........|------| ........|------|

well it certainly seems to know which viewpoint it like by the look of things

peepz, i've bought a step ladder along with me ..........__ ......... / ........ |--| ........ |--| ........ |--| ........ |--| ........ |--| ........ |--| ........ |--| its now safe to come down from your high stools without breaking your necks

too flowery, with unessasarily long words

Yes, i've been following this story ofr the past few weeks. For those that would like to contribute, but without direct contacts to UIC fund raisers, save the children is also raising donations for flood relief - thanks

Djib, First, no offence, but please dont start a post with "Do you agree that god exist?" Its derogatory to your intelligence and that of your audience and a worn out prelude to 'kafir your not one of us argument', that is neither here nor there and no one should be ishtupid enough to fall for. second. Divinity is not the issue, and yes the universe and its creation are certainly difficult concepts to contemplate. The point is practice, and what value one places over the different forms of practice, i.e. the interpretations scholars make, since as you elegantly put it; with our boundless ignorance, only allah can understand the full purpose and meaning. third sorry, i dont fully understand the last 3 paragraphs, please explain, with less flowery language - thanks

Cambarro, [politics aside] The cilmi, is interesting, because you are are saying that you have been exposed to new knowledge which has led to change your mind in someway. My principal point is that everyone is exposed to new knowledge. For example, personally i reject the principle that i cant give my friends a hug or shake the hand of someone that i meet. The pious (by my and those around me's definition) people i've spoken to across a number of cultures also reject this. So are we all wrong? [hearts and minds] About the heart, your saying it doesnt matter, its all in my heart its what i feel. In that case, its independent of the world around me. and furthemore, since people hold different things closer to their heart, then there are as many islams as hearts. Is that really so? This is a relativistic view point, therefore by that argument, there is no need for any imports, in fact there is no need for anything. You already know what is right or wrong [evolution] Two points, (1) in your view point what are the basic tenants/principles, ie the set in stone cant negotiate type? (2) it islam evolves, then is it ok to reject the proposition of going back to a basic principle. Since change or evolution signifies that there cant be any notions of basic, just what is right at that point. - thanks for the reply

---------------------------------- [Cambarro] To be honest, I am not talking about the waddaads per se. I am talking about those people who claim that Somalia isnt in need of an imported Islam. That what our forefathers have practised is sufficient. You dont have to look further from these boards to notice that the terms 'gardheer, surwaalgaab' are used in a derogatory manner. Havent they read the seerah of the Nabi (as) and his companions (ra)? This is not being a better importer than others but the quality of the Islam that imported based on the Quran and Sunnah. ---------------------------------- Cambarro, I'll take your premise that we need to re-invent, so again: 1. which version? 2. how we choose between the alternatives? By saying imported Islam, where or in whom are you assuming this untainted version of an original still exists. And are you contradicting your argument in the notion of an import. By arguing for import now, you are also arguing for shades of gray, not black and white. If we can import and change now, then we legitimately do it tomorrow and we legitimately did it yesterday. So what makes this import any different to the way islam has always grown, been interpreted, used and practiced. .. and yes the name calling isn't right. But i dont think this was done outside of the party partisan behaviour of the marvelously over opinionated 'SOL politic' crew. ... ooh yes, i also threw a few jabs in my day over a number gender related issues. So sorry if this offended you.

---------------------- [North] But what are the tenets of faith? Is it only in our daily prayers that we would call 'faith' and all agree on? What about having patience, having good manners, not stirring trouble, are they not tenets of faith? ------------------ I think its difficult to argue for a faith with regard to manners, courtesies. Virtually all faiths that i know off stress the need for honest conduct between people, and stress that their followers adhere to these. The other thing is that you undermine the value of the ethereal by pointing at these, since they do not distinguish your faith from any other. And yes people are different, so their values are different, and a common framework helps. But does this mean that the framework assimilates to a common value or universally accepts all values. Personally, I don't know which, homogeneity gives a sense of security and continuation but its prone to bigotry, and we also have to choose whose value to normalise. On the other hand you have a constant state of change, and the relativism that gives theologians a constant migraine. [jb] To be honest with you, I'm a fan of the waddaads, i think what they are trying to do, if in good faith, is courageous. I do not fully subscribe to their full view point of what a functional society is or how it may be achieved, but their heavenly incentive at least in theory be immune to the short term cash/power payoff. What intrigues me though is, what happens if they eventually consolidate power. Given the motivation of reincarnating the pure, what happens to their defined impure.

North, That's just it. the search, and it goes well beyond government/administrative format. the perfect religion exists in many forms from Turkey to China, each adhering to a common faith and each infusing it with its local dilect. Now do these perfect forms all agree? Well they all agree to the basic tenants of worship. Pretty much everything else is up for debate. So how we choose between them, why must we choose between them and on what basis.

Thank you nuur iyo cambarro. So we can accept that: 1. the way islam is practiced today has evolved over the years. 2. that some have concluded that the current state is no longer satisfactory and it needs to be changed. So my questions then are: 1. Why should the current change be seen as any different to all that have come before it? If we assume that those people that come before us practiced in good faith, and adapted to their need and knowledge, then why is practice any less worthwhile. Conversely what makes the current revival worthwhile. 2. If the aim to go back, how do you distinguish religion from the cultures that you find references in?

dude, somali was only formally transcribed (latin alphabet) in 1972. So if its written in the somali we read now, it couldnt of been written before '72. If it looks older older than that, it could of been written in the Osmanya alphabet, developed in 1920's by Sheik Yaasiin Cismaan Yuusuf Keenadiid (the dude SOL'S very own Zafir has as avatar). But Osmanya doesnt look much like the latin alphabet. Anyhow, if you find it, let us know. Thanks