The Road to the Muslim Holocaust by Ghali Hassan February 7, 2006 GlobalResearch.ca "We are being challenged by Islam these years - globally as well as locally. It is a challenge we have to take seriously. We have let this issue float about for too long because we are tolerant and lazy. We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance. And when we are tolerant, we must know whether it is because of convenience or convictionâ€. Queen Margrethe II of Denmark, 15 April 2005. Tolerance is a falsehood often pronounced with difficulty in Western societies. Small countries such as Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, and Norway are leading the pack in the war on Muslims at home, and may be on the road to encouraging a new Holocaust against humanity. While these countries are part of the US-led coalition, which is responsible for the mass murder of Iraqis, they have also introduced discriminate and draconian immigration laws which are specifically directed against Muslims fleeing war and economic hardship. The pretexts are always the phantom of the “War on Terrorâ€. Historically, Muslims have been at the receiving end of Western-Christian violence for centuries. Following the 9/11 attack on the USA, Western Europe joined the US in its anti-Muslim crusade: “We are all Americans now†united against Muslims. In this context, 9/11 is used to legitimise a new form of Western-Christian fascism. Media pundits such as Christopher Hitchens and Daniele Pipes, who support the anti-Muslim ideology are springing up like mushrooms all over the Western world. Using the cliché of “free speechâ€, they are fuelling a vicious and violent war against Muslims around the world. The recent blasphemous images of Prophet Mohammed are nothing more than a campaign which promotes racism and violence. Islam is a peaceful religion, and Muslims are not “terroristsâ€. The insult to Prophet Mohammed, who is revered by over a billion people around the world, has nothing to do with “free speechâ€. Had the Danish cartoonist shown instead George Bush and Tony Blair slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children, he would have had lost his job by now and would be condemned by the same people who are barking about “free speechâ€. Would any newspaper in Europe dare to discuss Europe’s strict censorship laws of discussing the Holocaust? Barely a month ago, in early January 2006, Flemming Rose, the “cultural†editor of the Danish Jyllands-Posten (J-P), the newspaper that published the blasphemous cartoons, told Dan Bilefsky of the International Herald Tribune, that, “he would not publish a cartoon of Ariel Sharon strangling a Palestinian baby, since that could be construed as ‘racist’â€. In the past, J-P has also refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ submitted in April 2003 by Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler, because they were “offensive, not funnyâ€. Zieler was also advised by the editor, Jens Kaiser: “I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use themâ€. (The Guardian, 06/02/2006). It is “free speech†only if Westerners agree, otherwise, it is “offensive†or “anti-Semitismâ€. The Danish Far Right Party (Dansk Folkeparti) is the country’s third biggest party and underpins a hard-line centre-right coalition government claimed that Muslims are secretly planning to takeover Denmark. Although Muslims make about 2 per cent of the Danish population, one in four Danes have been brainwashed by their opportunist monarchs, politicians and the media to seriously believe that there will one day be “more Muslims†in Denmark than non-Muslims. The 2005 report of the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights (IHF) on ‘Intolerance and Discrimination against Muslims in the EU’ found that attacks on Muslims have markedly increased recently. Muslims in Sweden, Denmark and Austria are encountering difficult barriers. In Sweden, Muslims are advised to change their names to “Swedish- sounding ones†to increase their chance of employment. According to the report, 64 per cent of Muslims interviewed in Britain said that they were “unfairly targeted by counter-terrorism policiesâ€. In Denmark and Austria, the report reveals, Muslim women wearing headscarves are less likely to find work or pursue education. In Sweden, rightwing parties warn of a “Muslim invasionâ€. Other Europeans such as Belgium, Holland, France, Italy and Spain are also contaminated with far right groups and anti-Muslims parties. In Belgium, the country which has one of the “most vicious and inhuman of all colonial historiesâ€, the far right Party (The Vlaams Blok or Belang) dominate local politics, with an agenda to repatriate all people of colour to their countries of origin. One of its prominent leaders, Filip Dewinter, told the BBC recently; “When I see Muslim culture I think that our culture is superior. Our values, our way of life are superior and we have to say so. I don't think the way of life of Muslims is compatible with our way of lifeâ€. Muslim is our enemy, is the new European anti-Semitism motto. In the “liberal-minded†Netherlands, famous for its brutal and violent colonial history, racism is becoming part of Dutch values. Muslims have become targets of religiously motivated attacks. After the killing of an anti-Muslim fanatic and unknown Dutch film maker, Theo van Gogh, allegedly by a Dutch Muslim of African origin, after making the obscene film about Islam, the Netherlands erupted in anti-Muslim racism. The death of a Muslims-hater is used to justify much uglier crimes. Islamic schools and Mosques were bombed and set on fire. Muslim women were attacked throughout Holland. The rightwing Dutch government is embarking on anti-Muslim legislation to crack down on immigration and close-down “suspected†Mosques, and give police power to arrest people of Muslim faith. Although Muslims make up about one million (6%) of the Dutch population, former EU Commissioner Frits Bolkestein, said recently; “The most common first name registered at birth these days in Amsterdam is Mohammed. This, they say, is the Europe-to-beâ€. In France, the situation is not much different. The French can be proud of their well-known anti-Muslims and anti-Arabs hatred. President Jacques Chirac has adopted Jean Marie Le Pen extremist and anti-Muslims policy, which has increased violence against Muslims and denying Muslim women the right to education and employment. According to the IHF report, the French Front National (an offshoot of fascism), stated publicly that France's Muslims “share an allegiance to a wider community of believers that threatens national sovereigntyâ€. Even Muslims, who were born in France, have no standing in the ideals of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité, and the plague is spreading to neighbouring countries. The new German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, compared Islam with the “rise of fascismâ€. The East German politician who was selected to solve Germany’s unemployment and other social ills seems to find the war on Muslims a much easier issue. Thousands of Muslims have been arrested and screened by German police only because of “their profiles have matched basic criteria, including an affiliation with Islamâ€, reveals the IHF report. The German state of Baden-Wurttemberg has enacted what is called the “Muslim testâ€, in which Muslim applicants for citizenship are asked about their views on September 11, gay relationships and whether their teenage daughters are allowed to attend swimming classes. Can you imagine all Germans (in Baden-Wurttemberg) have exactly the same opinion on all three? “I am afraid we have not learned from our history. My main fear is that what we did to Jews we may now do to Muslims. The next holocaust would be against Muslimsâ€, Dr. Wolfram Richter, professor of economics at the University of Dortmund told Ziauddin Sardar of New Statesman magazine in Britain. It has always been easier to use crimes in order to commit even greater crimes. Finally, in Australia, the draconian “anti-terror†laws are designed specifically to victimise Muslims. Indeed, young Muslim men have been thrown in Guantanamo-like prisons not because they committed crimes, but because they are Muslims. Some companies have closed their employment’s doors to Muslim Australians and migrants from Muslim backgrounds. In addition, the army of commentators in the Australian media – one of the most controlled in the world – are accusing the police of “softly†treating Australians of the Middle Eastern backgrounds. This deliberate falsehood is designed not only to discredit the Police, but also to increase injustice and violence against Muslims. The IHF report’s director, Aaron Rhodes warned that; “these developments threaten to undermine positive efforts at integration and further increase the vulnerability of Muslims to human rights violations and marginalisationâ€. Hence the IHF report recommends that all EU governments “enhance efforts to prosecute and punish discriminatory and violent actsâ€. However, the warning may fall on deaf ears. As Sardar writes; “Even among individuals with more relaxed attitudes to interracial relationships, racism is unashamed and upfrontâ€. The governments may be pouring fuel on fire. To clarify one thing that seemed to be missed by most Westerners, Muslims are not ignorant of Western cultures, or Christianity, which is never part of Western civilisation any way. Jesus wasn’t born in Denmark or Norway. The fact, that many Muslims are studying in Western and American universities and many Muslims adopted segments of Western popular culture is proof of Muslims acceptability. This misunderstanding of Muslim societies, which suffered greatly under Western imperialism, is embedded in the West's ignorance and imagined superiority, which continue today. As vassals of U.S. imperialism, these small European nations such as Denmark, Norway and the Netherlands are using their deceptive position of “neutral countries†to commit gross crimes around the world. From Palestine to Iraq and Afghanistan, their armies are complicit in U.S. war crimes against defenceless peoples. In addition, they are participants in U.S. “War on Terror†and in U.S. “rendition†policy – the policy of kidnapping and covertly delivering an individual or individuals for interrogation and torture in undisclosed location or country. For example, Norway is credited with the Oslo “Peace Processâ€, the “fig-leaf for the ongoing colonization of the West Bank and Gaza Stripâ€, and the destruction of Palestine. Indeed, the Oslo â€Peace Process†allowed Israel to confiscate over 50 per cent of the West Bank and constructed dozens of Jewish-only colonies for Talmudic extremist fanatics. The Netherlands, is leading the way in “building democracy†and terrorising the people of Afghanistan. Denmark with 530 soldiers is part of the so-called “coalition of the willingâ€, the group of vassals that participated in the illegal and criminal invasion of Iraq. Indeed, Danish soldiers are complicit in the sadistic torture and abuse of Iraqi prisoners and detainees. This brings us to how the Jewish Holocaust – as an example of Christian Europe brutality – was initiated. Of course, anti-Semitism (anti-Jews and anti-Arabs hatred) was widespread in Christian Europe centuries prior to Nazi Germany. However, modern anti-Semitism was initiated in 1879 by William Marr, the German who founded the “League for Anti-Semitismâ€. Marr's racist views (Europe’s biological racism) were that Jews constituted a distinct racial group which was both physically and morally inferior, and therefore must be exterminated. With the rise of European racism against minorities in the 19th century, European Jews were targeted, as Muslims are targeted today. Differences between Jews and other European citizens manufactured and used as pretext to justify crimes against Jews. Jews were accused of “taking over†the world and so on. Adolf Hitler’s election on 30 January 1930, was based on his ideology of “one people [‘master race’ or Ãœbermenschen], one empire, and one leaderâ€. Hitler’s election paved the way for one of the greatest criminal acts in human history. Marr’s European biological racism continued during the rule of Nazism and became the vehicle for genocide. Jews, Gypsies, Czechs, Poles, the mentally and physically handicapped, homosexuals and others not belonging to the “master race†were targeted for extermination. Jews were specifically targeted. Bombings of synagogues, blasphemous cartoons depicting Jews, and anti-Jews posters were wide-spread all over Europe. During the occupation of Europe by the Wehrmacht (German forces), in France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway etc. the locals were rounding up Jews, Gypsies and other folk much faster than the Nazis could handle them. And if this wasn’t enough, the so-called “neutral†countries such as Switzerland were sending fleeing refugees back to the Nazis – as they do now with Muslims in daylight – and looking after the Third Reich money in their own bank. Do Western Europeans want to repeat history’s biggest crime against humanity? It is the duty of every civilized citizen to point a finger at any form of racism and violence against minorities. Our duty is to reject opportunist monarchs, politicians, the media, celebrities and anyone trying to manipulate the public and breed racism and violence. Global Research Contrinbuting Editor Ghali Hassan lives in Perth, Western Australia.

Also remind him that you believe Sayyid Qutb (the Egyptian) to be an innovator. Remember rule no. 13 from your manual? It forbade the Also remind him that you believe Sayyid Qutb (the Egyptian) to be an innovator. Remember rule no. 13 from your manual? It forbade the challenging of rulers as long as they were [referring to themselves as] Muslims. Viking, We are not discussing Seyyid Qutb (raximahullaah) here, rather it is Iranian shi'ism! If your intention was to sidetrack this subject, then pls ignore my point and concider it not posted...almost could predict your reaction...

Brothers and sisters, A/c. I'm only pointing out to the rich tradition of our cultural heritage and the social net in place to couple people, as to preserve the continuity of family units. The widows, the divorcees, the aged, the outnumbering, the forgotten, etc. it was simply the rich culture with its deep wells of wisdom and social fabric which protected the dignity of individuals and made sure everyone had the right/chance to live in family harmony. Had we not abandoned it in favour of less civilised practices, it would most probably have had prevented the above examples (which I believe you shouldn't have posted these private details here, in stead of making your point differently). 1) Heeran = Gabdhaha u kaco dhul kale haday deegaankooda rag ka waayaan, dhaqankuna wuxuu caadadiisu ahaa in reerka/degaanka ay soo martiyaan gabdhahaa u guuriyaan; ceeb bay ahaan jirtay in gabdhahaa loo guurinwaayo kadibna degaan ama reer kale u sii gudbaan. 2) Xigsiisan = Gabdhaha qoyskooda dhexdiisa wiilal ay qaraabo dhow yihiin loogu guuriyo (sababa frabadan ayaa keeni karo arrimahaa, oo ay ka mid yihiin in gabadh ama wiil guur la'aan ahaan) 3) Godobtir = Gabdhaha guur la'aanta ah ama guurdoonka ah oo loobixiyo asbaabo farabadan oo noqonkaro magdhow, xiriir wanaajin, iwm. 4) Dumaal = Dumaasha waa lawada yaqaanaa baan u malayn! W/c

Rendezvous, Without saying much, may I present to you: 1) Heeran 2) Xigsiisan 3) Godobtir 4) Dumaal W/c

Brothers and sisters, a/c. Why not start with and comment on the much needed reformation of the artificial borders that still remain meaningless but o so deadly in many aspects, be it geographically, psychologically or religiously transforming into mental markings, which has imprisoned us for many parts of the past centuries? Obviously, we're mistaken if we see these practical obstacles dividing and weakening the Muslim unity, coherence and strength, of which otherwise, Islam would have been in a "living" dynamic state (far and beyond any unworthy call/challenge to reform). Don't you all think so? Am I anti-territorial-nationhood-divisions among Muslim peoples? Obviously! Where do these silly countries with their silly little flags come from? Our interests are primarily one and united by devine authority; Fake territories have many fake intersts; Our interests cannot be aligned with many fake countries: Don't you all think so? Whatever it is that you believe, this issue should have a higher priority that the subject matter chosen for this particular thread... W/s. P.S. Anyone remebers Ernest Renan's statement that "Anation is a group of people united by a mistaken view about the past and a hatred of their neighbours"?

Brothers and sisters, a/c. Maybe this situation needs little defusing before it consumes/wastes more time and energy: First, we have the Book of Allah (swt) and the actions/sayings of His Prophet (peace be upon him, his family and all of his companions), to judge between ourselves as the criterion of right and wrong! Vice the numerous Qur’anic verses; “..and whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed..†(5:44,45,47) Secondly, in such judgements we distinguish between belief and individuals. We can judge the belief, but not the individuals unless they confess openly the same beliefs which have been judged as constituting Kufr, after the truth has been showed and explained! Thirdly, only scholars of true knowledge in the Book of Allah (swt) and the actions/sayings of His Prophet (peace be upon him, his family and all of his companions) are allowed to perform such judgements, and we all ought to know why, the reasoning behind it and accept the judgement (IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE ACCOMPANIED WITH PROOFS FROM THE REVELATION). Fourthly, the scholars have judged long time ago on the questions relating to the beliefs of the Rafidah/12 Imamate shia group (dominant in present day Iran) as being outside the fold of Islam as revealed by Allah (swt) through His final Messenger (peace be upon him). However, it’s wrong to refer to the whole population of Iran as non-Muslims, on which the original judgement can/could not be based; there are in Iran Muslims, children, excusably ignorant persons and handicaps, though non-dominant minority, it would be unjust not to specify (i.e. clergy, political rule/elite, etc.) and put everyone into one basket. If you wish to discuss about the political economy of Iranian situation (just like we do here with US, EU and Africa), fine, but religion should be a separate discussion. We have here people defending issues they know little or nothing about (politically motivated feel-good factor?), but surely that can’t be healthy for our spiritual realities. “The only saying of the faithful believers, when they are called to Allah (His Words, the Qur’an) and His Messenger (peace be upon him), to judge between them, is that they say: ‘We hear and we obey.’ And such are the prosperous ones.†(24:51) w/s

Personally I still prefer this topic to be discussed more by people working in the education field. Dear sister WoL, You’re right about the need for people with both knowledge and experience in the field of education to take the responsibility of spearheading the discussions on this particular subject. However, the responsibility ultimately rests on the shoulders of the society as whole, since the interrelationship, interdependence and interaction between socio-economic and culturo-religious foundations are always raised from the rich/poor soils of educational systems within that society. To see education as simply an isolated issue which should be left to educators and other actors alike in that field, without utilising it as the principal foundation of shaping lives and futures wherein families, media and literature, political systems, mosques, schools and universities, charitable organisations, etc. (basically each individual whose performances is education-based) has a distinctive role to play. What is your opinion? w/c P.S. A. D. Ajijola’s “Restructuring of Islamic Education†is a good read as well, even though his case studies relates to his experiences in Nigeria (being former Procureur General), there are other chapters dedicated to other experiences in the Muslim World.

Summertime is around the corner, and many Nomads will be fulfilling their dream to complete their outer shell with a new spouse to be stable ( li Taskunuu) , as such we at e-Nuri social scientists need your input to publish our next paper on; Brother Nur, Aw Yuusuf Barre, in his famous lines of prose titled; “Guur aan ka la’aado†could not have put it better in a fashion, rich of nomadic heritage, culture and tradition, yet, with a sense of humorous and timeless interpretable appeal. I and probably few other nomads who’ve not yet dared to come out in support of their deep-rooted admiration and subconscious pride in our nomadic traditional culture, I take the liberty to put forward and express their silent notion, -albeit somewhat hidden, indirect and through poetical safety- nevertheless as follows: Gurey iyo Daroorow arini, waygu gabilaye Wax i galayba waan uun galgalan, Gu iyo Jiilaale Galbi dhabadka waxa iigu wacan, hal igu gaarnaaye Garanna wayde meeshaan qalbiga, uga gufaacoone Guddigayga caawaba maqloo, galiya laabtiina Oo wada guntada xaajadaa, odaygu soo guurshay Gaashgaashka waa lagu lumaa, gole ka fuulka ahe Ha gudoonsan waa kii caqligu, gaan kugu ahaaye Gurri billa ninkii doonayee, nacaya goonbaarta Ee guur ujeedoow i maqal, waan ku garansiine Guduud looma raacoo haween, gabalba waa cayne Bidhaan gabi kalaalaada waa lagu gulaalmaaye Isu gaadhay gabadhaad tiraa, meel un baa go’ane Gaboodleyda gaashidu kutaal, labada goonyoodba Ee maradu geyngeyman tahay, guur aan ka la’aado Ganbadh lagu fadhiistiyo midaan, gaadha fidineynin Ganuunka iyo xeedhyaha middaan, goor Allaba dhiibin Gadh-cadaayadii reer tolkey taan, u gogol haynin Een geedka laga naadinayn, guur aan ka la’aado Gaar gaarka awrtiyo nirgaha, geela laga reebay Gurijoogta xoolaha midaan, goosanka u diidin Een garanin soo dheelan ee, guriga uun joogta Gudbantaan halkayguba galayn, guur aan ka la’aado Allow garawo giirka iyo afka iyo, ganafka uun taageysa Oo qoolka uun kula galdi’i magac waxay gaadho Gandihii miduu wada nacee gacalka fiigaysay Gool boodadii laga samree, goysay ubadkeeda Intay dhiig isoo galin lahayd guur aan ka la’aado Geediga hayaanka ah midaan, gaadhin waligeedba Ee gabanta loo sido sidii goodir, noo curatay Waa geeri naagtaan ritiga kuu gadh qabanayne Reerkoo gawaan dagay dadkoo gibbiladii waabtay Anoo galangalciyo oon latuban furayna gaadiidka Geedaha hadii lala dhexgalo, gudimo oodeedda Galoon badhaxa uma dhaaniin karo, geedantada jaane Guul iyo cidlay igu waddaa, goox aan yuurure’ee Gosha laga cabsoon iyo xidhkay gooshu ka adeegi Gaade iyo intay bahal isiin guur aan ka la’aado Midda gaaban ee garabka iyo, guudku wada joogo Ee socodka uma gaatisee, gididiflaynaysa Ee gura ma laacdee ritiga juu, ku ganacgoysa Janbal gibin ah een golos ahayn, guur aan ka la’aado Carmal jeer hortay guursatay oo, geeda soo shidatay 0o iga gu’ wayn oo taqaan, gaadmo iyo dhuudmo Waxay gogosha ii saxartirtoo, illaxidh goysaaba Dhowr habayn markii lala golyoo, gaax lakala maalo Gadaal bay lasoo bixi dabaro, hor ugu gaarnaaye Intay galab i aynabi lahayd, guur aan ka la’aado Midaan cowska soo guran aqoon, garab ku boodhlayda Galgalin jiifta bacadka uun galgalan, gu’ iyo jiilaalba Oo golaha qoyska iyo ninkaba, leexadu is goysay Ee giiryar baa cunay i odhan, guur aan ka la’aado Galbashada dharaartii midaan, gaadhka iga haynin Een garanin goortii wakhtiga, aanan gafayn reerka Een guurahaygii milshiyin, aar gudaan ahaye Anoo luga gorgoray taagnidii, gogosha oo laaban Intaan ciil la gow odhan lahaa, gaada iga haysa Amaan goor xun daydayan lahaa, guur aan ka la’aado Maradaan u gaday ayligaan gugakan, soo iibshay Garbasaar hadaan ugu dariyo, boqoro giirgiiran Wal maxidhato ganaca uun banayn, guur aan ka la’aado Galoolka iyo cowskay badhkood, guna ka gooyaane Garba duubantaan laga dayeyn, gala in ay laabto Waxay hooyadeed garab dagtoo, la i gargaaraaba Mar hadaan ka guurana haday, biidna garan waydo Gabbaad kob aan lahayn kuma gam’ee, guur aan ka la’aado Dumaal gaban leh gaayaa tufley, waa mas geed galaye Hadaan wiilka guulguulo, way igu guhaadoone Waa gool dhashii haysatee, guur aan ka la’aado Gabdhahoo ciyaar tuman ragoo, yara dul goocaaca Golostay ujeedeen haday, guluca soo saarto Waxay guuntu boodoo ciyaar, daba gablaysaaba Goobtii midii lagula hadhay, geedka dhiniciisa Garaclayda geelada irmaan, guur aan ka la’aado Gool wayn midii loo qalay iyo, gogol lasoo dhoobay Gab haday tiraahdoo martidu, igu dul gowriirto Weelkeedu tuu gorof yaheen, laguba gaaraynin Nm guraar minkii loodhigeey, gobbi la yaabtaaye Jntaan ciil la gow odhan lahaa, guur aan ka la’aado Talaabada midaan gaw kasiin, goor ay soconayso Oon gola baxayn oon xarago, gacanta saydhaynin Een dumarka gaasirin gadigii, guur aan ka la’aado Allow gaaridii Ioo xisho iyo, gabadha loo aayo Raaliyo garaad badan mid aan, iga guhaadaynin Adaan gacanta kuu hoos dhigtee, ha i gafsiin caawa. The fact that another famous poet (Cabdulqaadir Xirsi YamYam) replied to the above gabay, with an equally timeless piece of artistic achievement; titled “Geed aan ka idhaahdo†is another matter which could discussed, but not my point! Therefore Brother Nur, we are of the opinion that these points (which you understand them very well) should be taken into account for the next e-Nuri publications w/s

Assalaamu calaykum brothers and sisters, Before we can discuss this very important issue which is central to the prosperity of every society, it might be appropriate to make a survey of existing literature and evaluate their validity concerning our objectives, and to prevent us from reinventing the wheel all over again. Many great thinkers have written extensively on this subject, especially in the past few decades, and I believe that we should/could benefit from their works. I would like to bring the readers’ attentions to an event that took place in April 1977, where on the instigation of King Abdulaziz Universities in Makkah and Jeddah, 313 Muslim scholars assembled to discuss this very same problem. It was the first World Conference on Muslim Education (200 years too late), and many papers were presented by many great Muslim thinkers from all over the world “to deliberate this issue and suggest solutions.†Since then, King Abdulaziz University has printed in book-forms with the subtitle; “Islamic Education Series†which included: -Crisis in Muslim Education -Muslim Education in Modern World -Education and Society in the Muslim World -Curriculum and Teacher Education -Aims and Objectives of Islamic Education -Social and Natural Sciences: the Islamic Perspective -Philosophy, Literature and Fine Arts I hope the nomads who’ve already familiarised themselves with these subject literatures will be able to help us carry this discussion into a serious and practical level... w/c and jzk all...

Assalamu Alaykum, maybe this will help you in the meantime a little, but if you have more questions...I'm sure brother Nur will help you if he finds the time Allah willing. What is Islam? Islam is composed of three main areas: Utterance (to testify that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is His slave and messenger), faith, and deeds. Faith is to believe in Allah, the Angels, the Heavenly Scriptures, Prophets, the last Day, and in the ability of Allah to will the existence of good or bad. Deeds are: Salat (Prayers,) Zakat (a certain fixed proportion of the wealth - liable to Zakat - of a Muslim to be paid yearly for the benefit of the poor,) Siyam (Fasting,) and Hajj (Pilgrimage.) Faith in Allah 1. We believe that Allah is one God, our Lord and the Lord of everything, and the Creator of everything. 2. All other than Him are created, and are servants who share nothing with Allah. Even Angels and Prophets are merely created servants submitting to Allah. 3. Among them are Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be upon them); both have no trace of deity (godhood). 4. Allah is the Living Self-Subsisting, Eternal, the First without a beginning and the Last without an end. 5. He hears everything and sees everything. 6. He is Most Gracious, Most Merciful, All-Dominating and He has the Most Beautiful Names and the Noblest Attributes. 7. He has created us out of nothing, and made us in the best form and He has given us all graces and bounties. 8. Hence we are not permitted to worship or submit to any other than Him, whether a favorite Angel or a chosen Prophet. 9. Whoever directs his prayers, bows or prostrates (in worship), or offers sacrifice to any other than Allah, he is an infidel and not a Muslim even if he declares that he is a Muslim. Allah says: "Say: Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my living and my dying are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. No partner has He. And of this I have been commanded and I am the first of those who submit to His Will." (Holy Qur'an; 6:162-163) 10. Islam is the religion of Monotheism: it denies the Dualism of Magians and the Trinity of Christians. Islam teaches that Allah is One and only One. No one shares with Him, His Dominion or His Command. He has the Most Beautiful Names and the Noblest Attributes. Allah says: "Say! He is Allah, the One. He is The Most Unique, The Eternal, The Absolute. He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none like unto Him." (Holy Qur'an; 112) Faith in Angels 1. Allah has created Angels to worship Him, to carry out His commands and to be His messengers to His Prophets. 2. One of the angels is Gabriel who used to bring down Revelation to our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). 3. Another Angel is Michael who is in charge of rain falling. 4. A third one is the "Angel of Death" who is in charge of taking the souls of people whose death is due. 5. Angels are but servants honored by Allah. 6. Hence we honor them and speak of them respectfully. 7. But we worship none of them, nor do we take them as Allah's sons or daughters (as infidels claim). 8. We worship only Allah who created them in this wonderful kind of creation. Allah (Glory be to Him) says: "And they say: The Most Gracious has begotten a son, Glory be to Him! They are but honored servants. They do not speak before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His command. He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those whom He accepted, and they stand in awe for the fear of Him. If any of them should say, 'I am a God besides Him', such one We should reward with Hell. Thus do We reward those who do wrong." (Holy Qur'an; 21:26-29) Faith in Holy Scriptures 1. Allah has sent down to a number of Messengers, Books in order to proclaim them to mankind. These Books contain the Words of Allah. 2. Among them are the Sheets of Ibrahim (Abraham,) Taurat revealed to Musa (Moses,) Az-Zabour (Psalms) revealed to Dawud (David,) The Injil (Gospel) revealed to Isa (Jesus,) and the Qur'an sent down to Muhammad (Peace be upon them all). 3. Jews and Christians distorted some parts of their Books (Taurat and Injil). 4. Being the last Book assuredly guarded from corruption, the Qur'an confirms the truth in the previous Books and guards it. 5. Whatever, in those Books, differs from the Qur'an is corrupted or abrogated. Allah (Glory be to Him) says: "And We have sent down to you the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it..." (Holy Qur'an; 5:48) 6. Allah revealed the Qur'an in Arabic and has firmly promised to protect it. His last Message is free from all corruption; He, Most High, says about the Qur'an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message, and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)" ( Holy Qur'an; 15:9) Faith in Prophets 1. We believe that Allah chose from among mankind some Prophets to deliver His Guidance. From among those Prophets He selected Some Messengers. 2. He sent to the Messengers Laws and commanded them to proclaim these laws and to clarify them to their people. 3. Some of the great Messengers of Allah were Nooh (Noah,) Ibrahim (Abraham,) Musa (Moses), Isa (Jesus,) and Muhammad (peace be upon them all). 4. Embracing Islam does not mean to disbelieve in Moosa, Isa, or any other Prophet. 5. Islam teaches you how to believe correctly in all Prophets. Allah (Glory be to Him) says in the Qur'an: "And We have sent down to you the Book (this Qur'an) in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it (clarifying the truth they distorted)..." (Holy Qur'an; 5:48) 6. Allah mentioned the names of a number of Prophets, He, Most High, says: "Say you (Muslims): We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us and to Ibrahim, lsma'il, Isaac, Ya'qoob (Jacob) and the Tribes, and that which was given to Moosa (Moses), and Isa (Jesus), and that which was given to all Prophets from their Lord. We make no difference between one and another of them, and we submit to Allah (in Islam)." (Holy Qur'an; 2:136) 7. The first Prophet was Adam, father of mankind (PBUH). 8. Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) is the seal (the last) of the Prophets. No Prophet is to come after him up to the end of this world. 9. Hence the fact that Islam is the only true religion to remain up to the Last Day. 10. He is Muhammad son of Abdullah son of Abdul-Muttalib. He is an Arab from (the famous tribe) of The Quraysh, a descendant of Ibrahim (Abraham) and Isma'il (Ishmael) (peace be upon them all). 11. He was born in Makkah (Mecca) in 571 AD (Known as the Year of the Elephant). 12. Allah sent Revelation to him when he was 40 years old. 13. He stayed in Makkah 13 years calling people to (believe in) Allah. Only a limited number of people believed in him. 14. After that he emigrated to Al-Madinah and invited its people to believe in Allah, they accepted. 15. He established the Islamic state, and in the year 8 AH (After Hijrah) He died at the age of 63 after the whole of the Qur'an was revealed, and all Arabs embraced Islam. Faith in the Last Day 1. We believe that there will be another life after this life. 2. When the determined term of this life comes to an end, Allah will command an Angel to sound the Trumpet and all mankind and all other creatures will die. 3. Then he (Angel) will sound it again, when, behold, all dead since Adam will stand out of their graves. 4. Then, Allah will gather all people to account them for what they did. 5. Those who believed (in Allah), accepted the Messengers (as truthful) and did good deeds (commanded by Allah), Allah will put them in Paradise. In Paradise, they will enjoy eternal Bliss. 6. But those who rejected the Messengers and disobeyed Allah's commands will be put in Hell. In Hell Fire, they will be in continuous eternal punishment. Allah (Glory be to Him) says: "As for him who had transgressed all bounds, and preferred the life of this world his abode will be Hell-Fire. And for him who feared of standing in front of his Lord's (Tribunal), and restrained (his) soul from lower desires, his abode will be Paradise." (Holy Qur'an, 79:37-41) Faith in Fate and Divine Decree 1. We believe in the timeless knowledge of Allah and in His power to plan and execute His plans and nothing could happen in His Kingdom against His will. 2. His knowledge and power are in action and command at all times over His creation. 3. He is Wise and Merciful and whatever He does must have a meaningful purpose. 4. If this is established in our minds and hearts, we should accept with good faith all that He does, although we may fail to understand it fully, or think it is bad. [From: Your Way to Islam by Dr. Muhammad Suleiman al-Ashqer] A Quick Introduction to Islam Islam and Muslims: The word "Islam" is an Arabic word which means "submission to the will of God". This word comes from the same root as the Arabic word "salam", which means "peace". As such, the religion of Islam teaches that in order to achieve true peace of mind and surety of heart, one must submit to God and live according to His divinely revealed law. The most important truth that God revealed to mankind is that there is nothing divine or worthy of being worshipped except for Almighty God, thus all human beings should submit to Him. The word "Muslim" means one who submits to the will of God, regardless of their race, nationality or ethnic background. Being a Muslim entails willful submission and active obedience to God, and living in accordance with His message. Some people mistakenly believe that Islam is just a religion for Arabs, but nothing could be further from the truth. Not only are there converts to Islam in every corner of the world, especially in England and America, but by taking a look at the Muslim World from Bosnia to Nigeria, and from Indonesia to Morocco, one can clearly see that Muslims come from many various races, ethnic groups and nationalities. It is also interesting to note that in actuality, more than 80% of all Muslims are not Arabs - there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in the whole Arab World! So even though it is true that most Arabs are Muslims, the large majority of Muslims are not Arabs. However, anyone who submits completely to God and worships Him alone is a Muslim. Continuity of the Message: Islam is not a new religion because "submission to the will of God", i.e. Islam, has always been the only acceptable religion in the sight of God. For this reason, Islam is the true "natural religion", and it is the same eternal message revealed through the ages to all of God's Prophets and Messengers. Muslims believe that all of God's Prophets, which include Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, brought the same message of Pure Monotheism. For this reason, the Prophet Muhammad was not the founder of a new religion, as many people mistakenly think, but he was the Final Prophet of Islam (in the general sense i.e, submission to God / Monotheism). By revealing His final message to Muhammad, which is an eternal and universal message for all of mankind, God finally fulfilled the covenant that He made with Abraham, who was one of the earliest and greatest Prophets. The way of Islam is the same as the way of the Prophet Abraham, because both the Bible and the Qur'an portray Abraham as a towering example of someone who submitted himself completely to God and worshipped Him without intermediaries. Once this is realized, it should be clear that Islam has the most continuous and universal message of any religion, because all Prophets and Messengers were "Muslims", i.e. those who submitted to God's will, and they preached "Islam", i.e. submission to the will of Almighty God. The Oneness of God: The foundation of the Islamic faith is belief in the Oneness of Almighty God - the God of Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus. Islam teaches that a pure belief in One God is intuitive in human beings and thus fulfills the natural inclination of the soul. As such, Islam's concept of God is straightforward, unambiguous and easy to understand. Islam teaches that the hearts, minds and souls of human beings are fitting receptacles for clear divine revelation, and that God's revelations to man are not clouded by self-contradictory mysteries or irrational ideas. As such, Islam teaches that even though God cannot be fully comprehended and grasped by our finite human minds, He also does not expect us to accept absurd or demonstrably false beliefs about Him. According to the teachings of Islam, Almighty God is absolutely One and His Oneness should never be compromised by associating partners with Him - neither in worship nor in belief. Due to this, Muslims are required to maintain a direct relationship with God, and therefore all intermediaries are absolutely forbidden. From the Islamic standpoint, believing in the Oneness of God means to realize that all prayer and worship should be exclusively for God, and that He alone deserves such titles as "Lord" and "Savior". Some religions, even though they believe in "One God", do not make all of their worship and prayers for Him alone. Also, they give the title of "Lord" to beings that are not All-Knowing, All-Powerful and Un-Changing - even according to their own scriptures. Suffice it to say that according to Islam, it is not enough that people believe that "God is One", but they must actualize this belief by proper conduct. In short, in the Islamic concept of God, which is completely based on Divine Revelation, there is no ambiguity in divinity - God is God and man is man. Since God is the only Creator and continual Sustainer of the Universe, He is transcendent above His creation - the Creator and the creature never mix. Islam teaches that God has a unique nature and that He is free from gender, human weaknesses and beyond anything which human beings can imagine. The Qur'an teaches that the signs and proofs of God's wisdom, power and existence are evident in the world around us. As such, God calls on man to ponder over the creation in order to build a better understanding of his Creator. Muslims believe that God is Loving, Compassionate and Merciful, and that He is concerned with the daily affairs of human beings. In this, Islam strikes a unique balance between false religious and philosophical extremes. Some religions and philosophies portray God as just an impersonal "Higher Power" who is uninterested, or unaware, of the life of each individual human. Other religions tend to give God human qualities and teach that He is present in His creation, by being incarnate in someone, something - or even everything! In Islam, however, Almighty God has clarified the truth by letting mankind know that He is "Compassionate", "Merciful", "Loving" and the "Answerer of Prayers". But He as also emphasized strongly that "there is nothing like unto Him", and that He is high above time, space and His creation. Finally, it should be mentioned that the God that Muslims worship is the same God that Jews and Christians worship - because there is only one God. It is unfortunate that some people mistakenly believe that Muslims worship a different God than Jews and Christians, and that "Allah" is just the "god of the Arabs". This myth, which has been propagated by the enemies of Islam, is completely false since the word "Allah" is simply the Arabic name for Almighty God. It is the same word for God which is used by Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians. However, it should be clarified that even though Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christian, their concept of Him differs somewhat from the beliefs of other religions - mainly because it is based completely on Divine Revelation from God. For example, Muslims reject the Christian belief that God is a Trinity, not only becaue the Qur'an rejects it, but also because if this was God's true nature, He would have clearly revealed it to Abraham, Noah, Jesus and all of the other Prophets. The Qur'an: The Arabic word "Al-Qur'an" literally means "the recitation". When used in regards to Islam, the word Qur'an means God's final message to mankind that was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad. The Qu'ran, sometimes spelled Koran, is the literal word of God - as it clearly says time and time again. Unlike other sacred scriptures, the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved in both its words and meaning in a living language. The Qu'ran is a living miracle in the Arabic language; and is known to be inimitable in its style, form and spiritual impact. God's final revelation to mankind was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad over a period of 23 years. The Qur'an, in contrast to many other religious books, was always thought to be the Word of God by those who believed in it, i.e. it wasn't something decreed by a religious council many years after being written. Also, the Qu'ran was recited publicly in front of both the Muslim and non-Muslim communities during the life of the Prophet Muhammad. The entire Qur'an was also completely written down in the lifetime of the Prophet, and numerous Companions of the Prophet memorized the entire Qur'an word-for-word as it was revealed. So unlike other scriptures, the Qur'an was always in the hands of the common believers, it was always thought to be God's word and, due to wide-spread memorization, it was perfectly preserved. In regards to the teachings of the Qur'an - it is a universal scripture, and it is addressed to all of mankind, and not to a particular tribe or "chosen people". The message that it brings is nothing new, but the same message of all of the Prophets - submit to Almighty God and worship Him alone. As such, God's revelation in the Qur'an focuses on teaching human beings the importance of believing in the Unity of God and framing their lives around the guidance which He has sent. Additionally, the Qur'an contains the stories of the previous Prophets, such as Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus; as well as many commands and prohibitions from God. In modern times in which so many people are caught up in doubt, spiritual despair and "political correctness", the Qur'anic teachings offer solutions to the emptiness of our lives and the turmoil that is gripping the world today. In short, the Qur'an is the book of guidance par excellence. The Prophet Muhammad: Unlike the other prophets, Muhammad (PBUH), the final Prophet is a real, documented and historical figure. He lived in the full light of history, and the most minute details of his life are known. Not only do Muslims have the complete text of God's words that were revealed to Muhammad, but they have also preserved his saying and teachings in what is called "hadith" literature. This having been said, it should be understood that Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad was only a man chosen by God, and that he is not divine in any way. In order to avoid the misguided wish to deify him, the Prophet Muhammad taught Muslims to refer to him as "God's Messenger and His Slave". The mission of the last and final Prophet of God was to simply teach that "there is nothing divine or worthy of being worshipped except for Almighty God", as well as being a living example of God's revelation. In simple terms, God sent the revelation to Muhammad, who in turn taught it , preached it, lived it and put it into practice. In this way, Muhammad was more that just a "prophet" in the sense of many of the Biblical Prophets, since he was also a statesman and ruler. He was a man who lived a humble life in the service of God, and established an all-encompassing religion and way of life by showing what it means to be an ideal friend, husband, teacher, ruler, warrior and judge. For this reason, Muslims follow him not for his own sake, but in obedience to God, because Muhammad not only showed us how to deal with our fellow human beings, but more importantly, he showed us how to relate to and worship God, worship Him in the only way pleasing to Him. Like other Prophets, Muhammad faced a great deal of opposition and persecution during his mission. However, he was always patient and just, and he treated his enemies well. The results of his mission were very successful, and even though his mission started in one of the most backward and the remotest places on earth, within a hundred years of the death of Muhammad, Islam had spread from Spain to China. The Prophet Muhammad was the greatest of all of God's Prophets, not because he had new doctrines or greater miracles, but because the results of his mission have brought more human beings into the pure and proper belief in the One True God than any other Prophet. The Islamic Way of Life: In the Holy Qur'an, God teaches human beings that they were created in order to worship Him, and that the basis of all true worship is God-consciousness. Since the teachings of Islamic encompass all aspects of life and ethics, God-consciousness is encouraged in all human affairs. Islam makes it clear that all human acts are acts of worship if they are done for God alone and in accordance to His Divine Law. As such, worship in Islam is not limited to religious rituals. The teachings of Islam act as a mercy and a healing for the human soul, and such qualities as humility, sincerity, patience and charity are strongly encouraged. Additionally, Islam condemns pride and self-righteousness, since Almighty God is the only judge of human righteousness. The Islamic view of the nature of man is also realistic and well-balanced. Human beings are not believed to be inherently sinful, but are seen as equally capable of both good and evil. Islam also teaches that faith and action go hand-in-hand. God has given people free-will, and the measure of one's faith is one's deeds and actions. However, human beings have also been created weak and regularly fall into sin. This is the nature of the human being as created by God in His Wisdom, and it is not inherently "corrupt" or in need of repair. This is because the avenue of repentance is always open to all human beings, and Almighty God loves the repentant sinner more than one who does not sin at all. The true balance of an Islamic life is established by having a healthy fear of God as well as a sincere belief in His infinite Mercy. A life without fear of God leads to sin and disobedience, while believing that we have sinned so much that God will not possibly forgive us only leads to despair. In light of this, Islam teaches that: only the misguided despair of the Mercy of their Lord. Additionally, the Holy Qur'an, which was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, contains a great deal of teachings about the hereafter and the Day of Judgment. Due to this, Muslims believe that all human beings will ultimately be judged by God for their beliefs and actions in their earthly lives. In judging human beings, Almighty God will be both Merciful and Just, and people will only be judged for what they were capable of. Islam teaches that life is a test, and that all human beings will be accountable before God. A sincere belief in the life hereafter is key to leading a well-balanced life and moral. Otherwise, life is viewed as an end in itself, which causes human beings to become more selfish, materialistic and immoral. Islam for a Better Life: Islam teaches that true happiness can only be obtained by living a life full of God-consciousness and being satisfied with what God has given us. Additionally, true "freedom" is freedom from being controlled by our base human desires and being ruled by man-made ideologies. This stands in stark contrast to the view of many people in the modern world, who consider "freedom" to be the ability to satisfy all of their desires without inhibition. The clear and comprehensive guidance of Islam gives human-beings a well-defined purpose and direction in life. In addition to being members of the human-brotherhood of Islam, its well-balanced and practical teachings are a source of spiritual comfort, guidance and morality. A direct and clear relationship with Almighty God, as well as the sense of purpose and belonging that one feels as a Muslim, frees a person from the many worries of everyday life. In short, the Islamic way of life is pure and wholesome. It builds self-discipline and self-control through regular prayer and fasting, and frees human-beings from superstition and all sorts of racial, ethnic and national prejudices. By accepting to live a God-conscious life, and realizing that the only thing that distinguishes people in the sight of God is their consciousness of Him, a person's true human dignity is realized. source: Islamweb.net

^^be my guest and post it anywhere you like...

Oooh, the UN; the professional painters... Channel 4 News has seen minutes from that meeting, which took place in the White House on 31 January 2003. The two leaders discussed the possibility of securing further UN support, but President Bush made it clear that he had already decided to go to war. The details are contained in a new version of the book 'Lawless World' written by a leading British human rights lawyer, Philippe Sands QC. President Bush said that: "The US would put its full weight behind efforts to get another resolution and would 'twist arms' and 'even threaten'. But he had to say that if ultimately we failed, military action would follow anyway.'' Prime Minister Blair responded that he was: "solidly with the President and ready to do whatever it took to disarm Saddam." But Mr Blair said that: "a second Security Council resolution would provide an insurance policy against the unexpected, and international cover, including with the Arabs." Mr Sands' book says that the meeting focused on the need to identify evidence that Saddam had committed a material breach of his obligations under the existing UN Resolution 1441. There was concern that insufficient evidence had been unearthed by the UN inspection team, led by Dr Hans Blix. Other options were considered. President Bush said: "The US was thinking of flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours. If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach." He went on: "It was also possible that a defector could be brought out who would give a public presentation about Saddams WMD, and there was also a small possibility that Saddam would be assassinated." Speaking to Channel 4 News, Mr Sands said: "I think no one would be surprised at the idea that the use of spy-planes to review what is going on would be considered. What is surprising is the idea that they would be used painted in the colours of the United Nations in order to provoke an attack which could then be used to justify material breach. Now that plainly looks as if it is deception, and it raises some fundamental questions of legality, both in terms of domestic law and international law." Also present at the meeting were President Bush's National Security Adviser, Condoleeza Rice and her deputy Dan Fried, and the Presidents Chief of Staff, Andrew Card. The Prime Minister took with him his then security adviser Sir David Manning, his Foreign Policy aide Matthew Rycroft, and and his chief of staff, Jonathan Powell. Those present, as documented in Mr Sands' book, also discussed what might happen in Iraq after liberation. President Bush said that he: "thought it unlikely that there would be internecine warfare between the different religious and ethnic groups." link

An article that attempts to put few things into perspective: February 2, 2006 Cartoons and Hypocrisy Danes Finally Apologize to Muslims (But for the Wrong Reasons) By RACHARD ITANI In many European countries, there are laws that will land in jail any person who has the chutzpah to deny not only the historicity of the Jewish holocaust, but also the method by which Jews were put to death by the Nazis. In some of these countries, this prohibition goes as far as prosecuting those who would claim or attempt to prove that less than 6 million jews were slaughtered by the Nazis. In none of these countries are there similar laws that threaten people with loss of freedom and wealth for denying that large percentages of gypsies, gays, mentally retarded, and other miscellaneous "debris of humanity" were also eliminated by the Jew-slaughtering Nazis. Quickly now: what defines a hypocrite? Answer: a person who follows the letter of the law, but not its spirit. The laws against anti-semitism are just that: laws against anti-semitism enacted by hypocritical Europeans with blood on their hands from the genocides in their recent and distant past, and much guilt to atone for in their hearts and minds. The spirit of the law, which would extend this protection to Muslims as well, if not indeed other religious groups, is nowhere to be found in the Western legal code. You can curse the Prophet of the Muslims at will and with total impunity. However, approach the holocaust at your own risks and perils if you do not include in your discussion the standard, ritualistic incantations about the six million Jewish victims of the European Nazis. There is a word for this in the English language: hypocrisy. I used to have a lot of respect for the Dutch, the Danes, and the Norwegians, and still do. However, I cannot claim that this respect is not more nuanced today. The coloring started when the Dutch, who are invariably and automatically described as being amongst the most "tolerant" people in the West, if not the world, proved that their tolerance was little more than skin deep. Their reaction to the murder of Theo Van Gogh was anything but driven by tolerance. They behaved as a mob in reaction to the criminal, despicable action of an extremist and murderer, by painting the whole Dutch muslim community with the same broad brush that Vincent Van Gogh would have eschewed. They burnt Muslim schools and mosques. They directed opprobrium at Muslims in their midst, calling on them "to go home" though many had been born in the Netherlands. No subtlety in the Dutch reaction. Just collective anti-semitism which they directed not at the Jews, but at the Jews' cousins, the Muslims. Then the Danes, who must have felt left out, decided to go the Dutch one better: a Danish paper published cartoons that are no less offensive to Muslims than anti-semitism is to Jews. The cartoons were described by Danish politicians and the press as not provocation, but a principled case of free speech, although many Danish and Scandinavian newspaper editors are on record stating that they published the cartoons as an act of defiance against "radical Islam." This is akin to these ignorant morons recommending that the U.S. ought to nuke Tehran because that would teach Iranian President Ahmadinejad a lesson. What free speech are we talking about here? The law says thou shalt not utilize or publish anti-semitic language or imagery. Consequently, Danish (and other European) papers will refrain from doing so, lest they fall foul of the law and offend Jewish sensitivities. The law does not say: thou shalt not offend muslims or use imagery that may be deeply offensive to them. So Danish papers will not refrain from doing so, in fact they will go out of their way to offend Muslims both in Denmark and around the world, in the name of "free speech." And the Norwegians? Well, they just decided to follow the Danes down perdition lane, all in the name of holy hypocrisy, so a Norwegian paper also published the offending cartoons. The statement about "confronting radical Islam" was in fact made by the Norwegian editor of a newspaper that is described as a "Norwegian Christian Paper." And now that other European papers and Magazines have also followed suit, if there was any doubt that this affair is one of anti-Muslim bias, it was swept away by the statements of the Editor in Chief of Die Welt, the German magazine, who declared that the right to publish the cartoons was "at the very core of our culture" and that Europeans cannot "stop using our journalistic right of freedom of expression within legal boundaries." It's the "legal boundaries" qualifier that gives the game away: there are no legal boundaries in Europe protecting Muslims from the same ignominies that the law protects Jews from. And what further argument does Die Welt put forward to justify its "legal" action? " It pointed out that "Syrian TV had depicted Jewish rabbis as cannibals." You can imagine how helpful a similar argument would hold up in a court of law: "But your honor, I only killed one guy and raped two women: the other guy killed four and raped 10!" That a German editor-in-chief of a major German paper should use the "legal" argument to justify offending the religious sensitivities of Muslims, when that same "legal" framework would see him thrown in jail faster than he could spell the word legal if he offended the sensitivities of Jews, may be a testament at least of his own deep-seated contempt for Muslims. That so many European papers have now reprinted the offensive cartoons is an indication that the contempt for Muslims does not stop with the editor-in-chief of Die Welt. This whole affair is nothing but an over-reaction to a simple cartoon, you say? Not if you remember a certain other cartoon that appeared in the British newspaper, The Independent, on 27 January 2003. It depicted Prime Minister Sharon of Israel eating the head of a Palestinian child while saying: "What's wrong? You've never seen a politician kissing babies before?" Jews in Britain and around the world erupted with indignation, arguably because the depiction reminded them of millennial charges levied against them by Christians who accused them of using the blood of babies in ritualistic killings. You see, Sharon can actually kill, maim and spill the real, actual blood of Palestinian babies: that is not offensive to Zionist Jews and their apologists in the West. But let Sharon be depicted in a cartoon metaphorically as the ogre that he has proved to be in his real life, symbolically eating a Palestinian child, and the world will erupt in offended indignation. A cartoon that is offensive to Muslims, on the other hand, is depicted as nothing but an expression of "free speech." There is a word for this in any language: hypocrisy. Before the Danish cartoon incident started to evolve into a growing international crisis, the Danish Prime Minister and the publisher of the Danish newspaper that first published the offending cartoons both declared that they would never apologize on grounds of free speech and because publishing the cartoons had not broken any Danish laws. (Yes, the "no law broken" argument again.) Yesterday, however, they both ended up apologizing in the face of a growing tsunami of protests on the part of Arab and Muslim governments, some of whom withdrew their Ambassadors from Copenhagen. The Danish prime minister did not apologize because his moral compas suddenly found True North again. The real reason, of course, is that he understood, though a tad too late, the potential economic consequences of a widespread boycott of Danish goods on the part of one billion people. There is a word for this in the Danish language: realpolitik. Muslims and other reasoning people around the world understand well that European laws against anti-Semitic speech, writing, and behavior, were enacted for two reasons. The stated reason was to protect the Jews from the continued onslaught of anti-Semitic attacks, both verbal and physical, which culminated historically in the repeated pogroms that Christian Europeans launched against Jews repeatedly through the centuries. (Historically, it was the Arabs who protected the Jews and took them in whenever they fled Christian barbarity, especially in the Middle Ages.) The real reason, of course, is to protect the Europeans from the pangs of their own conscience, which has very good reason to feel guilty indeed, given what Europeans did to Jews in the last millennium, especially in the 19th and 20th centuries, not to mention what they did to the indiginous people of the Carribean and the Americas since the 1600s, and to the people of Asia, Africa and Oceania as well. I have long thought that it's European Christians, more so than Jews, who ought to observe Yom Kippur, or adopt a similar atonement observance of their own. While the spirit of the law is that Europeans shalt not offend any ethnic or religious groups including Muslims, this seems to be lost only on the Europeans themselves, or at least the Danes, the Germans and their ilk amongst them, who only care about, or fear, the letter of the law. Why should we therefore be shocked when Muslims depict Europeans as nothing but a bunch of hypocrites? Why shouldn't Governments of Muslim countries recall their Ambassadors to Denmark in protest, as some did? The only disappointment is that no Western or non-Muslim government, the meek complaints to a French newspaper by the French Foreign Office excepted, had the moral and ethical courage to publicly, unequivocally and forcefully condemn an act that is as deeply offensive to Muslims as the desecration of a Torah scroll, or of a Jewish cemetery, is offensive to all civilized people in the world, be they Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Animist, or Atheist. There are two ways for Europeans to redeem themselves: the immediate temptation would be to call on their national parliaments to extend the protections of the laws against anti-Semitism and Holocaust denying to Islam and Muslims, as well as any other religious group . That would be the wrong recommendation however. The right recommendation would be to repeal the laws that govern holocaust denying and other laws that favor one group over another, so that the issue truly becomes one of free speech. And if Europeans are the civilized people they claim to be, then their politicians and newspaper publishers ought to find it easy to immediately apologize when they have unwittingly offended the taboos of any human community, be it religious or otherwise. Muslims and Arabs have suffered enough hypocrisy on the hands of European Christians, just as Jews suffered in the past on the hands of these same Europeans, and as Palestinian Muslims and Christians alike are suffering today on the hands of Americans, Europeans and, of course, Zionist Jews, both Sephardim and Ashkenazi. If Europe thinks of itself as a civilized society, then it ought to do its utmost to redress the wrongs that too many people around the world have suffered as a result of European misbehavior and often outright criminal actions, most especially since the 1400s. Muslims deserve nothing more nor less than for Christians in the U.S. and Europe, and Zionist Jews in Israel, to simply abide by the golden rule: treat others as you would have others treat you. So far, Christians and Zionist Jews have proven that they only abide by the alternative definition of this rule: "They who have the gold, make the rule." The gold in this case is a combination of economic and military might. Of this, Europeans, Zionist Jews and their American overlords have aplenty in reserve. Were it that they also had an equal reserve of un-hypocritical, civilized morality and ethical behavior to underpin their feelings of sanctimonious superiority. And the other measure that Europeans can adopt to redeem themselves? The European people can start by throwing out of office, and initiating criminal proceedings against, any politician responsible for sending a single soldier to invade, occupy, and initiate pogroms against the people of Iraq: these politicians have been guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, which makes them unfit for the honors that continued office holding bestows upon them. Europeans can also give the boot to any politician who has approved or turned a blind eye to a single rendition flight that sent any person to the torture chambers of the Americans or their surrogate torturers in some Arab or Muslim countries. These are the same countries whose religious sensitivities we should all respect as strongly as we respect Jewish sensitivities when it comes to the Jewish holocaust, not because the law says so, but because it's the right thing to do. These are also the same countries whose human rights trespasses Europeans ought to condemn as equally and vehemently as they should condemn the continued human rights abuses and state terrorism perpetrated by the Israeli government in Palestine/Israel, and by some European governments in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in other out-of-sight/out-of-mind places like Haiti, Africa, and elsewhere. In other words, Europeans can start by applying the simple rule of one weight and one measure to both friends and foes, equally to themselves and to the rest of the world, because policy and politics, both domestic and foreign, ought to be based upon and subject to principled moral considerations, not expediency of the economic, financial or religious kind. Is that such an unreasonable moral proposition to consider? Rachard Itani can be reached at: racharitani@yahoo.com LINK

^^It was an uplifting read, showing some of the the shameless ironies in today's world. The following article of Robert Fisk offers same sentiments, but who cares? The problem with democracy by: Robert Fisk on: 28th Jan, 06 Oh no, not more democracy again! Didn't we award this to those Algerians in 1990? And didn't they reward us with that nice gift of an Islamist government - and then they so benevolently cancelled the second round of elections? Thank goodness for that! True, the Afghans elected a round of representatives, albeit that they included some warlords and murderers. But then the Iraqis last year elected the Dawa party to power in Baghdad, which was responsible - let us not speak this in Washington - for most of the kidnappings of Westerners in Beirut in the 1980s, the car bombing of the (late) Emir and the US and French embassies in Kuwait. And now, horror of horrors, the Palestinians have elected the wrong party to power. They were supposed to have given their support to the friendly, pro-Western, corrupt, absolutely pro-American Fatah, which had promised to "control" them, rather than to Hamas, which said they would represent them. And, bingo, they have chosen the wrong party again. Result: 76 out of 132 seats. That just about does it. God damn that democracy. What are we to do with people who don't vote the way they should? Way back in the 1930s, the British would lock up the Egyptians who turned against the government of King Farouk. Thus they began to set the structure of anti-democratic governance that was to follow. The French imprisoned the Lebanese government which demanded the same. Then the French left Lebanon. But we have always expected the Arab governments to do what they were told. So today, we are expecting the Syrians to behave, the Iranians to kowtow to our nuclear desires (though they have done nothing illegal), and the North Koreans to surrender their weapons (though they actually do have them, and therefore cannot be attacked). Now let the burdens of power lie heavy on the shoulders of the party. Now let the responsibilities of people lie upon them. We British would never talk to the IRA, or to Eoka, or to the Mao Mao. But in due course, Gerry Adams, Archbishop Makarios and Jomo Kenyatta came to take tea with the Queen. The Americans would never speak to their enemies in North Vietnam. But they did. In Paris. No, al-Qa'ida will not do that. But the Iraqi leaders of the insurgency in Mesopotamia will. They talked to the British in 1920, and they will talk to the Americans in 2006. Back in 1983, Hamas talked to the Israelis. They spoke directly to them about the spread of mosques and religious teaching. The Israeli army boasted about this on the front page of the Jerusalem Post. At that time, it looked like the PLO was not going to abide by the Oslo resolutions. There seemed nothing wrong, therefore, with continuing talks with Hamas. So how come talks with Hamas now seem so impossible? Not long after the Hamas leadership had been hurled into southern Lebanon, a leading member of its organisation heard me say that I was en route to Israel. "You'd better call Shimon Peres," he told me. "Here's his home number." The phone number was correct. Here was proof that members of the hierarchy of the most extremist movements among the Palestinians were talking to senior Israeli politicians. The Israelis know well the Hamas leadership. And the Hamas leadership know well the Israelis. There is no point in journalists like us suggesting otherwise. Our enemies invariably turn out to be our greatest friends, and our friends turn out, sadly, to be our enemies. A terrible equation - except that we must understand our fathers' history. My father, who was a soldier in the First World War, bequeathed to me a map in which the British and French ruled the Middle East. The Americans have tried, vainly, to rule that map since the Second World War. They have all failed. And it remains our curse to rule it since. How terrible it is to speak with those who have killed our sons. How unspeakable it is to converse with those who have our brothers' blood on their hands. No doubt that is how Americans who believed in independence felt about the Englishmen who fired upon them. It will be for the Iraqis to deal with al-Qa'ida. This is their burden. Not ours. Yet throughout history, we have ended up talking to our enemies. We talked to the representatives of the Emperor of Japan. In the end, we had to accept the surrender of the German Reich from the successor to Adolf Hitler. And today, we trade happily with the Japanese, the Germans and the Italians. The Middle East was never a successor to Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy, despite the rubbish talked by Messrs Bush and Blair. How long will it be before we can throw away the burden of this most titanic of wars and see our future, not as our past, but as a reality? Surely, in an age when our governments no longer contain men or women who have experienced war, we must now lead a people with the understanding of what war means. Not Hollywood. Not documentary films. Democracy means real freedom, not just for the people we choose to have voted into power. And that is the problem in the Middle East. source: The Independent

Assalaamu calaykum akh Nur, In badan ayaa waxaan aragnaa Muslimiin farabadan oo u' heysta tabardarrida Ummaddeena haysata in asbaabaha keenay uu oogu wacan yahay awood-maal ama -millateri la'an darteed, aadna isugu mashquuliyaan siday gaalada heerkooda adduun oo kale u' gaari lahaayeen, khasbeysana markaa, in: 1) Waddada gaalada lagu dayada oo la raaco 2) Xaqqa (kaligii)iskii uusan isu taagi karin awood ah Alle sokodii la'aantii. Waxaa aad inoogu faa'iideyn lahaa, haddaad inoo soo koobi kartid (qaybta labaad) macnaha ka dambeeyo calaamadah laga fahmi karo madax-bannaanida xaqqa uu ka madax-banaanyahay tiirarka (maalka/awooda) dunida, iyo siduu u' astaaneeyo ama ooga xoreeyo addoomaha xaqqaas ku sugnaaday. (Suuradda Qur'aanka ee Ash-shucaraa' ayaan ka dareemaa badanaa) Jazaak-Allaahu khayran.

Assalaamu calaykum, Gabaygan waxaan waxaan u' soo koobiyeeyey rag aan yara tuhmayo sida wadaad "Xiin" iyo odayaasha la goob-joogga ahba! (Abdullahi Macalim Dhoodaan) JACBURKII DHOODAAN War horta ninyahaw anigu waan jeclaadaye Gabadhbaan jeclahay oo i jecel, mana jeclaadeene Haddii ay i jeclaatana ma rabo inaan jeclaadaaye Ninkii ay jeclaatana la waa inuu jeclaadaaye Kii aan jeclayn waa iyadu inay jeclaataaye Jacaylkagya iyo keedu waa laba jeclaadoone Gabadh jinaha dhuudhuuban waa inaan jeclaadaaye Tu naasuhu janjeedhaan waa inaan jeclaadaaye Middii jeer la moodoo dhan waa inaan jeclaadaaye Garoobtii i soo jiidha waa inaan jeclaadaaye Islaan baradho jiidaysa waa inaan jeclaadaaye Duqdii jaadka gadaneysay waa inaan jeclaadaaye Habar jeenyo buurbuuran waa inaan jeclaadaaye Wadaaddaanse jeclaadee dharraar macawsta i siisay Gurigeeda waagaan tegee ay shaaha ii karisay Haasawaheedii kolkuu sooba madhan waayey Feedhka iyo tantoomada sideer uguma boobeene Kolkay qaad i siinweydey ayuu mawdku ka adeegay. Ninkii dumar jeclaadaase wuu yara ammaantaaye Adna waxaaban kuu soo fekeray hadallo dhaadheere Midabka iyo quruxdaadan ayaan yarahe faalleyne Gabadhyahay casaantaadu waa dhuxullo meygaage Afkaagana madowgiisu waa nuuraddoo kale e Sidaa aawadeed baan jacayl kuugu soo kacaye Guurna waaban kaa doonaya sidaa dharraatiiye Timahaygu siday yihiin eed cirrada moodo Duqdnimiyo gabow igama aha oo wayska dhalankaye Adiguna carruurbaad tihiyo sida dhallaankiiye Isku qayrna waa nahay anuun baa laba Gu! kaa weeyne Sanadkii Daraawiishtii baan dhoocillo ahayne Dhallinyaro inaan nahay dadkuba waa ogsoonyahaye Inan iyo barbaar baan nahaye waan lagaranayne Raggaa kale juuq ha u odhan aniga mooyaane Kii kula hadlana waa inaan feedh ka badiyaaye Haddii layga kaa dhaco waxbaan sahayan doonaaye Dameer dhagaxa waa inaan gurtoo qaylo kiciyaaye Naagtana ka iga qaada waa inaan ka dhuuntaaye Ninuu ciil lafaha buuxiyoo dibinta ruugaaya Oo luqanta hoogaamiyo gegi xarriiqaaya Haddii kii xumaantaa ku falay weliba maad maagtid Sidii laba digaag sow ilkaa layska cuni maayo.

Brother Nur, may Allah reward you for all your effords! Very fresh and interesting systematic approach of problem solving, away from the usual dead-end helter-skelter! But could we get through the phases as recommended if there are a couple of viruses that are very delicately and at times undetectable to expert engineers which are disguised within the popular malaise still preventing the adopted or chosen system application program to run smoothly? Phase five: System Design this phase will employ all talents available to translate the requiremens into a working system. Your resumes are needed so that we can use your skills where they are neede best. "To each is a goal to which God turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, God will bring you Together. For God Hath power over all things." (2:148) Or is this program the only overriding system for ALL system crashes, that we needn’t worry on the execution of this particular system installment? I've become, like many (some not yet aware of), a victim of satanic pessimism in this regard more than once or twice...but the stuggle will insha'Allaah continue!

Dear all, May I suggest to you not to flatter yourselves by pretending that the (mental) prison-cell divisions of Greater Somalia to be the result of a disagreement of Somali elders themselves who choose to be divided. The Somalis never had any say on the outcome of either pre-independence or the immediate post-colonial changing stages in the case of former, and the status quo in the latter case. To state otherwise is simply false! In fact, the Somali folk during that time were more united than they've ever been since The opinion of better informed historians, even though I don't agree with it entirely, is as followed: In January 1948 the Four Power Commission dealing with the ex-Italian colonies, made up of the United Kingdom, the United States, the Soviet Union and France, arrived in MaÎdiê9å and discussed the situation with the various interested parties, including the SYL, the HDMS as well as the Italian societies. The four powers, however, failed to agree among themselves, handing the final decision of what to do to the General Assembly of the United Nations, who, in November 1949, placed what had been Italian Somalia prior to the invasion of Ethiopia under United Nations trusteeship for ten years, to be administered during that time by Italy, following which the country would gain independence. It was in 1948 also that most of the Ogad*een (Og§d¿n [q.v.]) area (leaving aside the northern and north-eastern region known as the Haud and the Reserved Area) was handed back to Ethiopia, despite strong resistance on the part of the majority of the Somali inhabitants and the reluctance of the British, who had supported a plan proposed by the British Foreign Minister, Ernest Bevin, for the creation of a Trusteeship of the Union of Somali territories. It was later in 1954 that the Haud and the Reserved Area came under Ethiopian rule, and it was this move in particular which sparked a greater political consciousness in the British Protectorate and also led to the organisation of another political party, the National United Front (NUF). Source

Brother Nur, As a Simple Ordinary Soul, I can only pray for the Saviour Of Somalia with a Sigh Of Sadness. I hope when you Start Outlining Selected topics that you’ll come up with Sound Objective Strategies we can possibly adopt. For example, how to deal with the Stimulus Of Self-preservational instincts which the [tribal] Sensationalists, [NGO] Organisations and the [assumption of meaning] SVW always seem to appeal and rely on. Are there any Sentiment Ousting Solutions that can Save Our Somalia? Now, I leave the interpretation of Special Vehicle Warlord ( SVW) for you until the full article rols out of the e-Nuri printing mills. Since it's only one ingredient from a larger recipe, I rather wait for the full article than pre-taste some of it before the master chef is finished with cooking! P.S. Apparantly, S.O.S also stands for Somali Shilling :confused:

3. NGO ( Non Governmental organizations) The Vampire Economy and the making of a SVW ( Special Vehicle Warlord) Now a new breed of warlords (Some who can even read e-Nuri articles) are emerging, lets examine the effect of NGOs to the creation, maintenance and advancing of anarchy in Somalia. Assalamu calaykum brother Nur, good to see you back... I can emagine The Vampire Economy, but what's the Special Vehicle Warlord? :confused: I'll be looking with special interest to your evaluation/examination of the advocates/creators and the effects of ANARCHISM in particular, and the future of the libertarian movement, after having adopted Somalia as their philosophical testing ground. I haven't had the time to explore these issues myself, but am I wrong not to take these negative externalities too serious? Best wishes, Struggling Obedient Servant

The punishment of Allah? Assalaamu calaykum, I don't think so if we apply the logic of causation in its totality, because Allah's punishments always have reasons, be it through our own actions...wherein we can deduct the relative spectrum of different meanings to different individuals (e.g. tests, punishments, etc.)... The workings of the SUNAN of Allah’s JUSTICE are not my expertise, but no one here will hopefully object to the fact that a sick society must eventually produce some really sick outcomes and vice versa. Therefore, in stead of blaming the few hellish warlords, shouldn't we now start blaming the society that created, promoted and continues sustain of which they're a product of? If we do so, thus, the conclusion must be that: It's not per se a sovereign punishment, even though it is relatively independent to some, it is ultimately the symptoms of our sicknesses!!! ...recognition will give birth to hope for a better future, just as correct diagnosis gives a better chance to find the best cure... May Allah guide us all!

**Funny how I can be more worried about what other people think of me ... than what Allah thinks of me** Do you know why? Is it because we love ourselves more than we love Allah (swt)? Need we be worried about what others think of Allah (swt) as well? Preyeth he/she best, who loveth Allah (swt) best? ...just thoughts...

But when I considered this, and thought about it, effectively what any of us should be doing, whether it is kindness to a partner, to a friend, family member whoever, we do these things, to please Allaah. To me the wise person is the one who recognizes this, and whenever they act they do not do it for themselves, or to show of - so it could be said of them - rather they do it because this life is in essence a worship of Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala and part of worshipping Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala is to keep good relations, and to help one another in whatever way we are able. The above statement needs much more attention from us, if we're true to what we confess by word of mouth (Islam)!

Assalaamu calaykum, Jazakallaah for the beautiful verses sister Warrior of Light; unfortunately cannot wish for a happy new calendar year from my part! In addition to your post above, your signature below Dilbert’s quote reminded me of the following verses from the beginning of Al-Cimran (3:2-9) which is as follows: 2: God! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. 3: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). 4: Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution. 5: From God, verily nothing is hidden on earth or in the heavens. 6: He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Might, the Wise. 7: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. 8: "Our Lord!" (they say), "Let not our hearts deviate now after Thou hast guided us, but grant us mercy from Thine own Presence; for Thou art the Grantor of bounties without measure. 9: "Our Lord! Thou art He that will gather mankind Together against a day about which there is no doubt; for God never fails in His promise."

The "fitrah" surfaces, however, in times of calamity and distress. How many avowed atheists find themselves raising their hands to the skies in supplication when in affliction! And how do the staunch unbelievers cry out for deliverance when they are faced with death! To illustrate the above quote; remember this? When the tyrant Pharaoh (probably Nemesis II) was chasing Muusa (cs) and Bani Isra’iil in the middle of the separated sea, and saw that death was inevitable, even he, the worst enemy of Allah (swt) in his time who -let alone denying Allah's existence- claimed divinity for himself has stated the following as Allah informed us in the Qur’aan: “I believe that there is no God but He in Whom the Bani Isra’iil believe and I am of the Muslimuun†(10:90). This, much to the annoyance of the head of the angels, Jibriil (cs), who would later confess to our beloved Prophet (cs): “O Muhammad! If you could have seen me when I took the mud from the sea and shoved it into his mouth, fearing that the mercy of Allah (swt) might save him.†(As narrated by Ibn Cabbaas (rc) and reported in the sunan Tirmidi). I can understand that the nature of the calamity and the horrendous death faced that particular Pharaoh was unprecedented, but, nevertheless, all deniers face the same horror and shame in their even seemingly peaceful beds when death is near. However, to get stuffed with the salty mud from the bottom of the sea through your throat by the biggest creature ever created in the heavens and earth (known to us), is for us at this stage quite an unimaginable sight! This means they know all along, and it is a waste of time to debate the subject with them, in a matter becoming of non-distinguishable between us and those who may jump (mostly other way around) on the same wagon defending their biblical doctrines of creatio ex nihilo or whatever, which will prevent us from performing our more important duties. Don't get me wrong, because I'm not opposing in its totality though! Struggling Obedient Servant