Would that I were as careless and as shameless as a beast. Alas, the Unmoved Mover , for some reason or another, unbeknownst to me still, fashioned me a luckless man.

Good Castro, blame it on Camel Milk, says Nur; I find myself agreeing with him without much thought; Camel Milk has never been kind to taste buds of mine. Somalis ought to declare a moratorium on the drinking of such milk. Has she, Somalia, no great-uddered kine roaming her plains.

Dare I say that my ears are privy to Nur's secret supplication, the Sage is praying thus: Eebbow Nin gob baan ahoo guni rifeysaaye. Would it were that the case. Though it betokens a sense of immodesty, I fancy myself the interlocutor who can deliver of himself a few letters that will bring to an end this natural storm of violent protestations. Nur opined that the circumsicion of females would effect lower rates of abortion and promiscuity; however, I. He did not provide a shred of argument for this claim (statistical elements, biological implications, scientific correlations). II. When pressed for any semblance of substantiation for his stance, good Nur went on a respite to the city of Toronto, abandoning the virtual city(the thread) which he created, forever. I must needs say that I was horrified by his first intellectual sin (I) not so much because it is "controversial" or "sentimental", rather because it was pregnant and bloated with fallacies (مغالطات) and sophisteries (سÙسطة) unbecoming of a schoolboy, much less, SOL's religous schoolman. The crowning horror, however, was to be found in the second intellectual sin (II). The schoolman provided neither explanation of his view, nor a conspicuous recantation thereof. It is a philosophical principle held by some that an effect oft has, or must needs have, as much reality as the cause. The above-mentioned sins of the schoolman were the causes that led to the schoolgirls:- III. levelling charges of Hypocrisy, Misogyny, and other mala fide will IV. relentlessly pursuing him wheresover he flew Now, the schoolgirls attack (III) on the personality of the schoolman was porportioned to the carelessness and meaninglessness with which the schoolman presented his thesis. In like manner, it requires not a great fund of acumen to foretell that the schoolman was going to be mercilessly pursued thence(II-->IV). By the schoolman's own admission, there were numberless factors which affected, or more appropriately, impeded his judgement(tales of the torment of abortion, travel) when he posted his sentimental piece. Equally sentimental were the charges of hyporisy and misogyny. Be that as it may, an effect is always "representative" of its cause. The schoolgirls, no less, visited thier emotions on the schoolman by means of disparagement; that is to say, in the same coin he was paid back (emotion with emotion). The discussion, if emotions are thwarted, will be more benign than malign; and, in this vein, all sentiments ought to be blotted from remembrance, lest old wounds bleed afresh. The schoolman should be the first to treat this matter objectively. Reason bids me that I query the schoolman whether he denies the verdict that his article was sentimental; should the answer be in the affirmative, I shall ask him once more: have you so much as slender evidence (scientific) for your stance? If not, wherefore do you embark on a mad career? P.S. If the schoolgirls insist on labelleling Nur a misogynyst (his article was sentimental and want of logic, not misogynistic), and, hence, persist in thier emotion, or rather if the emotion persists in them, I shall ask them a two-winged question: a) what mean you by "misogynist" and b) What are the misogynistic elements in Nur's varied writings. I spake, or rather have writ on this subject more than allows leisure; hence, be assured, it is my last. Cimuu Thalaaman With Salaams, PK

With characteristic abandon, I prematurely smoted my thighs and cried: SOL audition ho!; why, it is an ingenious suggestion. Gifted we shall be with the enviable privlege of discoursing the finer points of sacred learning and the warm controversy of profane delectation; all the while, Nomads would acquire a sense of familiarity in terms of personal expression and locution superadded thereto. Of course, this flight of fancy disappeared into thin or thick air betimes. Any form of sustained disqusition is nowise possible. I suppose the cheif charm of this program will be the playing of gay songs and cheerful tales; a vantage, natheless, it is to some members. This should appease and satisfy the younglings and weanlings (and to some extent the underlings) of the SOL fora, but not those of us who are horrid with gray. A highly polished oratory is more suitable for consumption to the latter group, a group who is driven to the vanities of elegant speech and literature. Should that be well-nigh impossible, then the recitation of classical poems, I imagine, would be just as entertaining. In any case, if this materializes, then I will slake my need to be heard, by persons of a learned mein, whilst I recite the verses of the pantheons of Arabia. After committing to memory some quixotic coquetry, among other themes, from Abu Al-Faraj's famous arabic manual of literature, The Book of Songs, Kitaab Al-Aqaani, it is time to see whether some members of this site have, as I suspect, a deep acquaintence with arab poetic convention to appreciate the exotic flavour of that kind of precocity. For those of us with an arabic educational background (thiqaafah arabiyyah), the subtelties, and, indeed, curiosties of english pronunciation have proven to be a difficult task, a task bordering on the impossible. Thusly, it boots me not to put mouth-to microphone when I have the option of putting pen-to-paper; thusly, I shall take my seat in the audience chamber. P.S. If memory serves me aright, it was two autumns ago when I had token of the speech of some Nomads. I was utilizing the now-wretched Paltalk medium when I came upon a room christened "SOL Planet" or some such name. Therein I hearkened to the thickly accented eloquence of NGONGE , the charmingly broken english of Jamaa11 , and the appropriately corrupted, or so I percieved, british accent of Shujui, or perhaps it was another lad; there are too many factors clouding my memory now. At any rate, when I took the microphone thereafter, I was proud-nosed and high of head till one nomad, whose nom de plume I shan't divulge, related to me in private a revelation couched in a most creative invective pertaining to the unintelligibility of my words. My lips would have become frigid with diffidence thereupon had I not convinced myself that it was natural for some persons to harbour dark designs of private vengenance. A disgruntled tutee of one of my SOL philosophco-islamic tutorials is she, I reasoned. P.P.S. As regards the voice of females, I think it highly doubtful that males, upon harkening to the voice of a female, would be roused to untimely passion. Unless one is blind like Bashar bin Burd (the abbasite poet) or despararetly depraved, one ought not correlate the product of one's fancy with audition. I esteem the SOL female segment to be possessed of good spirit and sense, thusly the fear of Nomad she-asses, moaning and groaning, and thereby becoming the fuel for the mental engine, or the fodder for the trough of some poor wretch is unlikely. With Salaams, PK

Yaa laka min Qird! Priceless

أهلا بÙطر قد أتاك هلاله Ùالآن Ùاغد إلى المدام وبكر Ùكأنما هو زورق من Ùضة قد أثقلته حمولة من عنبر Ciid Saciid, Nomads. Kol xawl wa antum dayyibuun. Cimuu Sabaaxan With Salaams, PK

O Sanctas Simplicitas! Wadaadka cumaamaadii iyo go'ii ayaa ka wada dhacaye. Alahayoow ceebtayada inoo astur. To intrepret this as a provcative thread and not as a piece of sublime nonsense requires a generosity of spirit, which, I must own, is in abundance this month; in this number, I shall not take umbrage at the suggestion of "institutionalizing" the disfigurement of the female reproductive organ (excuse my Victorian prudishness) as the thread is devised save to ignite a fire-storm of responses. Controversy is a capsule which is as attractive to the healthy person as it is to the handicapped one, and to the intelligent as it is to the ignoramus. The notion that we must, at times, sacrifice our moral constitution, and, indeed, our biological composition in order to effect a "greater good" is not an argument that we can shoddily dismiss or emotively decry sans analysis and consideration. The natural reaction of wincing despair and sneering superiority must be succeeded by a more sober "detached deconstruction". The allowance of small evils, all factors remaining the same, might lead to the procurement of greater goods; id est, in medicine, a limb may be lopped off to preserve the body; in husbandry, selectively disadvantaged livestock may be eradicated to ensure a stable gene pool; in industry, factory workers may be discharged to produce sustainable economy ; in governance, territory may be given up to secure a kingdom. Unless the circumstances coerce one into performing such a sacrifice, one ought not to embark on it as the ramifications would be counter-productive and potentially disastrous. It would be a failure of not exercising intellignece and sound judgement if one lopped off one's arm because one's pollex was bleeding; in like manner, the relinquishment of a state sans doubtless provision of kingdom is counter-intuitive. Now you see, to go under the knife the female would have to satisfy these two conditons i)The female will secure chastity. ii) By being so "reconfigured" (essentially disfigured), she will not suffer ailments. However, it is no secret that some circumsized females are promiscous- this floors the first condition. Further, most females suffer a plethora of ailments in their life as a result of this circumcison- this disconfirms the second condition. Other germane queries, which many of the Nomads have posed are:- 1. What is the cause of promoiscuity? (in both males and females). Is it largely biological, or is it predominatly pyschological? Is one gender more inclined towards illicit copulation than the other? 2. Are there any corpora of statistics that shows that female circumcsions lead to less promiscuity, and, hence, less abortions and out of wedlock children. Of course, the science of statistics is very important, which leads us to enquire about the parameters of such a sample. 3. What is the ideal age to reconfigure one's daughter? Surely, not when she is an adolescent or a teen, because if you can circumsize her while she is a teen, then you also have the ability of "beating her silly" or "locking her up", so why must you play with her body? How does a parent determine the presence of promiscuity? Is the mother simply supposed to rely on her maternal instinct; the father, his paternal perception, or perhaps the parents need a smoking gun before summoning the local meat man? Of course, by attempting to provide any concrete answers to those questions, E-Nuri et al will, inadvertently, reduce themselves to absurdity. The whole argument is predicated on two unsubstantiated assumptions and premises, viz., there is a correlation between abortions and circumcsion, and the female is the cardinal culprit in these matters. What is required is more than a casual appeal to some obscure Gynocologist. I remember having thumbed through a philosophical tract, a sennight ago, regarding the structure and system of Ibn Sina's philosophy and medicine. It seems that NGONGE echoed the Avicennan axiom when he referred to the need to understand the nature of a phenomenon before attempting to cure it (causes, symptoms, diagnosis, prognosis, type- mental,physical); in this case, it entails realizing that it is not so much a biological matter as it is a pyschological one. In his oft-celebrated masterpiece in medicine "The Canon of Medicine" (القانون ÙÙŠ الطب), Ibn Sina, muslim philosopher and physician, devotes many treastises to pyschological ailments (e.g. Reactive depression, Emotional stress, Insanity, Obsessive affection). He wrote that it a mistake to attempt to treat mental complications and physical ailments in a similiar manner due to their intrinsic disparateness. It is just as much a mistake to amputate the healthy limb (as a measure of diagnosis) of an insane person as it is not to amputate the irreparably infected limb of a sane person. Promiscuity is a product of nurturing and not a product of nature. In this sense, it is an "internal" phenomenon, so treating it as an "external" one would not only be unproductive, rather it might bring about other complications. To sanction and encourage FGM in a Somali society which is already in tatters will indubitably cause a full-scale meltdown thereof. Sometimes- too rarely, but sometimes- we have to be guided by sound research as opposed to speculations and guesswork. With Salaams PK

If only he said, O God, loose a knot from my tongue, dadku waa fahmi lahaayeene...Carab weyniyo caqiido khalafsan yuu la yimide

ÙˆÙÙŠ انÙسكم اÙلا تبصرون. ÙˆÙÙŠ السماء رزقكم وما توعدون According to exegesis of the exgetes Jaarulaahi Zamakhsahri, Farkhru Diin Ar-Raazi, and Ad-Dabri, and Ibn Kathir the above verse regarding "ourselves" refers to both the intrinsic and extrinsinc qualities that we posses. Indeed, the starry heavens above and the moral law within are testaments of the first order. I have come across a Masters dissertation( written in arabic) on certain ethical elements of western philosophy. Apparently, the philosopher in question was not terribly unfamiliar with the quranic scripture. You be the jugde.

It is necessary that you constantly evaulate the the state of your inner-kingdom so as to sustain its structure. Does corruption abound in your kingdom? Is every branch of your state (soldiers, viziers, monarach) performing its given function? Are there any dissidents that need to pay the "wages of disloyalty"? A king who has a tongue so gentle that he does not scold his subjects, a hand so tender that he does not smite those who dispense vain counsel, or a volition so weak that he cannot effect his wishes is not a king proper, even if, in a moment of inspired idiocy, he fancies himself as a soveriegn. Used by the ancients and the gnostics alike, this metaphor encapsulates the ideal designation of the faculties of the rational animal (الحيوان الناطق). Happiness can only be acheived when the order of your inner-kingdom reflects, however remotely, the order of His Kingdom (التخلق باخلاق الله). Order will not be present if the ruler becomes the ruled. Base desires and carnal cravings ought to be subordinated to the soveriengty of reason, which, in its natural state, will rouse you to divine contemplation. After successful subordination, the impurities and uncleanliness of your slate will be burnished, allowing you to perform your function, to quaff from the divine font (Holy Quran and Sunnah) and uncover the hidden meanings therein. Yu'til xikmata man yashaa'u wa man yu'tal xikmata faqad uutiya khayran kathiiraa wa maa yathakkaru illaa ulul albaab It should not come as a surprise that fasting had been enjoined on previous peoples and nations as it facilitated proper esoteric and exoteric governance. Yaa ayyuhallathiina aamanuu kutiba calaykum assiyaamu kamaa kutiba calallathiina min qablikum lacallakum tattaquun Whoever attempts to taste the ecstasy of worship sans placing the passions and desires (القوة الشهوية) under the rule of reason (القوة العاقلة) is like the man who tried to fetch water in a sieve. Holding the wayward "members of your kingdom" (corrupt officials, dissident soldiers) to account is the warp and woof of Ramadan. Ramadaan Mubaarak, Cimuu Masaa'an With Salaams PK

^^ Herein are poems of a like theme

It seems that I have missed this "discussion" by a few days. No matter. This thread is effective insofar as it serves its purpose( evoking emotion, educating etc). Appealing to the emotions of an audience is not only effective but even at times necessary. This is a point that is not lost upon seasoned preachers. It simply works! Now, when addressing a more discerning audience, a preacher must not appeal to emotions at all. This would constitute an intellectual offense. In fact, the preacher would have to become a polemic and present arguments for his position. For those of you who were disappointed with this thread, should you comes across a thread such as this in the future, then you have the option of ignoring it as you are not its intended audience. One cannot ask a preacher to desist from appealing to the emotions of the less inquisitve segment of his/her audience, because such a demand would be absurd. With Salaams PK

Man of Freedom:- I gather you derive a thrill from ruffling the feathers of your opponents. Yes, paltalk must have conditioned you thus. Walee qofaan xanaaneynta xoolaha baran Paltalk uma adkeesan karo. It is a medium whose members are uniformly insane. Welcome back, ninyahow. With Salaams Philosopher-King

These days of late, I have become facinated with islamic poetry and especially muslim poets. In like manner, must I say, good Diamante, that I am fascinated with your fascination. Arabic poetry in general and Islamic poetry in particular are a cavier to the general. It whets the appepite of only those strange persons with a refined literary taste. The Poems of Rumi, the idee fixe of many a gnostic, are, if apprehended aright, both a potable and edible feast of reason. His poems have educed in the dryly righteous, as often is the case, charges of heresy and apostasy. Owing to a handicap in intrepreation, such persons vituperated this traveller most unjustly. The Arab Sage, Al-Mutanabbi, expressed it best when he said, Wa Kam min Caa'ibin qawlan saxiixan, Wa aafatuhu min al-fahmi as-saqiimi Reading mystical poetry without a primer in islamic precepts, as one spirtual guider once told me, is akin to leaping in the dark. Have you ever leapt in the dark before? One must have a firm grasp of the language of metaphors. It's reputedly composed by the Muslim poet Hassan ibn Thabit Are you sure that Ibn Thaabit is the author thereof? According to my book of memory, it was Khubayb himself who pronounced those gripping words. Though I came across these verses many moons ago, I still find myself humming these words in private, and, ocassionally, in public, till this day. ولست ابالي حين اقتل مسلما*** على أيّ٠شقّ٠كان ÙÙŠ الله مصرعي وذلك ÙÙŠ ذات الإله وإن يشأ *** يبارك على أوصال شلو٠ممزَّع As regards Raabi'ah Al-Adwiyyah, she is a testament to the argument that females can reach elevated stations of purification if they satisfy the conditions of wayfaring. If you are interested in poems with islamic themes, than I will direct your attention to the poets of the Abasite period and the preceding "islamic period". Here are some legendary poets of those eras:- ان لله عباد Ùطنا *** طلقوا الدنيا وخاÙوا الÙتنا نظروا Ùيها Ùلما علموا *** انها ليست لحي وطنا جعلوها لجة واتخذوا*** صالح الأعمال Ùيها سÙنا Imam Ash-Shafi' إذَا المرء٠لمْ يلبسْ ثياباً من التّÙÙ‚ÙŽÙ‰*** تقلَّبَ عÙرياناً وإنْ كانَ كاسÙيَا أخي! كنْ على يأس٠من النّاس٠كلّهمْ*** جميعاً وكÙنْ ما عشتَ لله٠راجيَا إلى الموت٠إلا أن يكونَ لمنْ ثَوى** منَ الخَلق٠طÙرّاً، حيثما كانَ لاقÙيَا حسمْتَ المÙÙ†ÙŽÙ‰ يا موت٠حسماً Ù…ÙبرّÙحاً** وعلَّمْتَ يا مَوْت٠البÙكاءَ البواكÙيا وَمَزّقْتَنَا، يا مَوْتÙØŒ ÙƒÙلَّ Ù…ÙمَزَّقÙØŒ** وعرَّÙتَنَا يا موت٠منكَ الدَّواهÙيَا ألا يا طويلَ السهو٠أصبحتَ ساهياً** وَأصْبَحتَ Ù…Ùغترّاً، وَأصْبحتَ لاهÙيَا Ø£ÙÙŠ ÙƒÙلّ٠يوم٠نحن نلقى جنازة **Ù‹ ÙˆÙÙŠ كلّ٠يوم٠منكَ نسمع٠مناديا ÙˆÙÙŠ كلّ٠يوم٠مÙنكَ نرثÙÙŠ لمعْوÙÙ„Ù** ÙˆÙÙŠ ÙƒÙلّ٠يوم٠نحن٠نÙسعد٠بالÙيَا ألا أيّها البَاني لغَير٠بَلاغَة ÙØŒ** ألا لخَراب٠الدّهْر٠أصْبَحْتَ بانÙيَا ألا لزَوال٠العÙمْر٠أصْبَحْتَ بَانÙياً؛** وَأصْبَحتَ Ù…Ùختالاً، Ùَخوراً، Ù…ÙباهÙيا كأنّكَ قد وَلّيتَ عن ÙƒÙلّ ما تَرَى ØŒ** وخلَّÙْتَ مَنْ خلَّÙْتَه٠عنكَ سالÙيَا Abul Ataahiyah الا كل شيء ما خلا الله باطل وكل نعيم لا محالة زائل وكل ابن انثى لو تطاول عمره الا الغاية القصوى Ùللقبر ءايل وكل اناس سو٠تدخل بينهم دويهية تصÙر منها الانامل وكل امريء يوما سيعر٠سعيه اذا حصلت عند الاله الحصائل Labeed Bin Rabee'ah الا ايها المقصود ÙÙŠ كل حاجة شكوت اليك الضر Ùارحم شكايتي الا يا رجائي انت تكش٠كربتي Ùهب لي ذنوبي كلها واقض حاجتي اتيت باعمال قباح رديئة وما ÙÙŠ الورى عبد جنى كجنايتي اتحرقني بالنار؟ يا غاية المنى Ùاين رجائي ثم؟ اين مخاÙتي؟ رايت خيال الظل اعظم عبرة لمن كان ÙÙŠ علم الحقائق راقي شخوصا واصواتا يخال٠بعضها لبعض واشكالا بغير ÙˆÙاق تجيء وتمضي بابة بعد بابة وتÙنى جميعا والمحرك باقي Ibn Farid That is all for now. Camii Sabaaxan, good Diamante. With Salaams, PK P.S. You can find all islamic poets on this site . I would recommend that you start with Ash-Shafi' and Abul Ataahiyah.

Judging by the recent replies in this thread, I must own that it calls for a pregnant pause. Perhaps the moderators should place a "breather" on this thread, and lock it momentarily until the heat subsides. With Salaams PK

^^^ This shall be my final visit to this thread Walee caduur dhawdhawdu uma dhacsana.. Kaagan yaree daboolayaasha calanaka u lulaya ama dood daliil leh la imow ama meesha isaga bax, wakhtiga haynaga luminine! Meesha kaftan iyo xubbi dumar lagaga hadli maayee ee si fiican u dood, ninyahow. Unless old age has robbed me of myself, I think that our rainbow-flag waving Nomad had made his comments in confusion. I had many a sticking points of thought when our rainbow-flag waving Nomad suggested that I peruse the research of Simon Levay. After reading this offensive trick, and, what a ruse it is, I find it all too easy to disparage him further, thereby adding to that hail of insults that rained on him. When one offends moral sensibilities by penning “glittering generalities†wanting of argument, such disparagements are to be anticipated. However, I shan’t dip my pen in gall, as there is, still, a chance that he may present the scientific merits of this research; the strongest part of which pertains to the presence of certain biological data (hormones, etc) in the body. Reproducibility is a cardinal tenet of empirical science, and if an experiment is not “reproducible†it fails the scientific litmus test. How else would the process of verification be employed in matters of quantitative literature? Notwithstanding the lack of equivalent reproducibility of the experiment thus far, there are inherent experimental (related to both the collection and interpretation of the data) shortcomings of this experiment. This is twofold problem, which is related to the consideration of experimental parameters and the interpretation of experimental variables. Now you see, good Castro, you say that you have found this research to be most pregnant. This is fair and well. Would that you shew us the cogency you have so perceived. To say that it is convincing, requires that you not chalk it up to incomplete and missing data. Your presentation will solve, I am sure, the apple of our discord, by showing which side has the “fairerâ€, and, indeed, reasonable argument. Do take my winged words as a bona fide invitation to discuss the scientific, and if need be, the philosophical nature of this “phenomenonâ€. Do indulge us further, as you, invariably, go on a fool’s errand! Your fund of humor, though great, will not sway persons in matters of such significance. You are good at obscurity, and fence the matter off all round. Clearly, you have some strange thing to tell? Lastly, suffer me to say, good Castro, that I do not suffer fools gladly. Good Crtica and I both await the production of the sceintific report, and your intrepretation of its strength. I need not advise you about having the courage of your convictions, as you have already taken the hot-iron in hand, and, it seems, are now attempting to pass through a fire unburned. P.S. NGONGE:- It would ill become of me to say that your frustration is without cause. Nontheless, good NGONGE, harness that frustration sxb. It should be a constant rule in your life never to avoid the conversation of a man who desires it; for if bad, he might benefit from your erudition; if good, you might benefit from his.

My intial response to this thread was a disdainfully veiled allusion to an allegedly homoerotic poem by an arabic poet, Abu Nawas. It was a natural reaction to errant nonsense. However, after closer inspection, I find that my initial annoyance has blossomed into alarm. It seems, that some have, for better or for worse, espoused, a peculiar strain of "beast philosophy", viz., that homosexuality, and, by extension, other aberrations are natural sexual orientations. Now, if one has heartfelt intuitions or emotional inclinations that homosexuality is "natural" (what does it mean to say that a sexual preference is natural?) then in such circumstances, learned persons must find better partners of discussion. Biologists have yet to conclusively determine the cause of homosexuality, so the jury is still out. Pyschologists, on the other hand, have opinions about the nature of this phenemoneon. Anyone who has read the newly acclaimed philosophical essay "On Bullshit", by the princetion philosopher and professor, can ill afford to take many pyschologists seriously. It were to be desired then if our rainbow-flag waving Nomad would furnish us with more than nauseatingly nebulous reasons for his stance. I would fain read the research of recognized biological, medical, or pyschological journals. What conclusive information have you come across that I am guilty of not reading. Finally, the insinuation of the "Problem of Evil" would be interesting had it not been dissolved many moons ago. God creates homosexuals (i.e. it is natural), then he condemns them for the way he created them. There are stronger versions of the argument, though I doubt many are equipped with the "sense of abstraction" to apprehend it. No matter. Assuming that God created them that way and subsequently condemned them, why believe in the justice of such a God (assuming of course you believe in Divine Justice, or that God is Just)? Is this not a case of Injustice?

Maa daama eey gabannadu ka daaleen hantaataca, dhowr eray aan ka idhaahdo mawduucan. Anigoo tookha yaraynaya Ultimately, all variation in living organisms is due to chance. What may be considered "unintelligent design" is the work of selection; this is (as everyone knows) related to both environmental and physiological constraints, which are, themselves constrained by "bigger things" such as physics!. The motor behind it all is, nonetheless, "chance" -- and this is where science steps out of its domain and takes a philosophical stance as to nature of origination. Chance requires regularity. And the standing question is thus :"Where did this regularity come from?" The "substance" or "stuff" of our universe (I am avoiding words like "matter" or "particles") is arranged so that what we call "hydrogen" can combine with what we call "oxygen" in a proportion of 2:1 to create what we call "water". Why? "Because it is so" , is the answer of science. But could it be otherwise? Science does not know, and probably cannot ever know- in principle. Nevertheless, there is here a clear rule, i.e., an example of the absence of chance. The same sort of rules are found at all levels (one "proton" and one "electron" combine to form one "hydrogen atom"). Chance, to sound redundant, requires a universe to work. In fact, chance - as we know it- requires this universe to work. This universe cannot be a part of itself, so, whatever is the reason behind how the universe is, "chance" is not it. The concept of randmoness does not make sense in a sample of one(i.e. the Universe). Since this is a metaphysical argument, and not a scientific one, not all the King's scientific essays and reports can make a dent in it. They could only (if they are scientific) address how this universe is, not how it came to be. Now, if one supposes (as some sceintists) that this regularity or "order" came about by random variations along a given range of possible values, then who defined the range? A range, by itself, is order. And this is what I mean by "chance requires regularity". Random variations presuppose a given range, i.e., they presuppose order. If every constant (i.e. Gravatational constant) and every proportion (water or salt) could range from - infinity to + infinity, there would be nothing. There would not be a field for chance to work with. This much is mathematical. Chance is not an acceptable explanation, so one is left to choose Design or "irreducibility" (it is so, because it is so). However, irreducibility insofar as it is an alternative is a non-explanation. With Salaams PK P.S. These arguments are one level higher than scientific ones, hence, the reference to "metaphysics" or "meta-science". Metaphysics gives science the background to work. Note that, if we measured the gravitational constant one million times in one million different places and found the value to be uniform, science would still be unable to claim that it is constant throughout space and time. This is a metaphysical claim (one which science embraces, for obvious reasons). It is not science which tells me that they are constant, it is metaphysics (science never showed that the constants are constant throughout space and time -- we just assume that, because assuming otherwise would stifle research.

I was a priviledged proletariat. Ah, pride was my vocation; philosophy, my employee. Though in all frankness, matters are different now than then. P.S. Two useless posts in one day, Maa calaynaa!

* affected formality * Al-Xamdulliaahi Rabbil Caalamiin, Wa bihi nastaciinu umuuru Dunyaa Wa Diin. Haseenah:- The recitor who is reciting surah al-qalam on the front page is Abdul Basit. I think the website has upto four different recitors on the first page, so everytime you refresh your browser you will see a different recitor. Subxaanaka Allaahumma Wa-Bi-xamdika Ash'hadu Allaa ilaaha illah Anta, Astaqfiruka Wa-Atuubu Ilayka Walaki Assalaam * End of affected formality *

As long as the sexual deviants behind the counter attend to this following request of mine, I shall quaff the coffee, as colloquial parlance would have it, " like there's no tomorrow ": - اسقني شايا وقل لي هو الشاي ولا تسقني سرا اذا امكن الجهر It is only fair that my faculty of audition share in on the pleasure that the senses of gustation, vision, olfaction, and tactition perceive. My request has lead (to my detriment, to be sure) to conspiratorial winks between those wretched employees. With Salaams PK

Salaamun Lakum Nomads, I have read this thread thrice today as the title induced an unhealthy excitement in me, laakiin cid allale cid aan ujawaabo ayaan garan waayay. Spurred on by a desire to pretend to profundity, some have propounded, confusedly, adventerous assertions (from the speculative theories of modern physics to the metaphysics of reality). It seems that some Nomads are blameably indifferent as to discussing the actual arguments of both the Theory of evolution and the Argument from Design. The theory of Evolution is, to labour the obvious, the single most discussed topic in all of natural philosophy or science. In this number, I must say that it is inappropriate to discuss this topic by penning glittering generalties. Empty statments such as " I think the theory of evolution is false, because there is evidence against it", or "I believe evolution to be a tenable scientific theory" are just that-empty. Argue dammit! I was ever of the opinion that the debate forum was free of the ghastly molestation which plagued other quarters of this site. Alas, I have found a disconfirming instance of my hypothesis. It were to be wished then that someone furnish us with the cardinal argument of Charles Darwin. What is it that Natural selection explains that other theories of evolution failed to explain? Where do the terms mutation and chance fit in this soi-disant theory of science. What is it that the theory of evolution seeks to establish? How does Darwin dissolve some of the objections to his theory? So discussing, we can perhaps move to the teleology argument. Aquinas, a christian theologian and philosopher, penned a famous passage of the Argument of Design, but the Greeks, were the orginal authors of teleology. The ID argument is a metaphysical argument, and not a scientific one, but what does this mean? Is this where the philosophy of science comes in? War iga jaahil bixaya, Dadoow! Camuu Sabaaxan With Salaams PK P.S. I thought it was necessary that someone play the role of the interloctor, as something whispers me, the discussion lacks focus. The discussion has yet to start.

^ u speak of things I'd like to know more of. Do u have any books/sites to suggest, please? We have been enjoined, good Sheherazade, to sing the Quran; singing is nothing more than creating musical sounds with your voice(try, for instance, singing your nick with different pitches and intonations. If you have the proper cords, you can produce a good spectrum of musical tones). Reciting the Quran with Tajweed is not similiar to reading it with Tarteel. Though the Tarteel recitations employ "the rules of tajweed", such recitations do not optimally beautify the recitation. Mujawwad recitations (real ones) accord an insanely precise duration, pitch, and rhythm to each word within a given Maqam. With practice, even laymen can recognize whether the octave is going up or down. It is important to note that classic arabic only uses five of the seven musical notes of the western octave (Do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti ). Though it has been donkey's years since I have read the science of music, I believe the letters "E", "F", two musical notes in the alphabetical notation, are absent from arabic music. The Second Teacher and islamic philosopher,المعلم الثاني , Al-Farabi, has written a massive masterpiece on the science of arabic music; in fact, his book Kitaab Al-Musiqa , The Book of Music , does not only treat of the various tones and Maqaamaat in arabic, but it also gives a psycho-philosophical analysis of "sound" and "sentiment". Why does the Nahawand Maqaam, for example, induce sentiments of tenderness and compassion? I have only read a few chapters of the book myself as it is dauntingly and protractedly technical. Now you see, quranic recitors, or artists, generally improvise when it comes to singing the quran as they have not a musical sheet. Some attribute the success of Mustafa Ismaeel, Menshawi et al in Tajweed recitation to thier acquaintence with music(even Abul Bassit had a background in music). Listen to Abul Bassit recitation of Sura Al-Qamar and Rahman, and you will literally be able to pinpoint when the melody is ascending the muscial ladder or when it is descending. Finally, I would recommend that you pay attention to the "Zakhrafa" (the creative maneovuring) that some recitors place on certain words. For instance, there are many ways that one can enunciate, or rather sing, the word "Allah". Try this experiment yourself, and place the emphasis on the first letter, then the "ll", then the last "a" all the while changing the pitch and duration of your intonation. The perfect Maqaam is that which best combines the qualitative (the emotion, tone) and quantitative (the musical/mathematical rhythm)in unison. I must own that I have a hearty contempt for persons who recite like As-Sudais. Notwithstanding his inferior length in breath and monotony, the speed at which he recites is too rapid for reflection and ecstasy . To be fair, in asmuch as his recitation is Tarteel, the art of tajweed cannot be applied to him. Twenty of the 150 "atwaar" have been the subject of much unwarranted criticism in some uninformed quarters. Khaleel Al-Husaree is the only notable recitor who expressed a reservation about the combination of certain maqaamaat. With Salaams PK P.S. The following site has many video and audio recordings (most Mujawwad) of recitors like Abdul Bassit, Menshawi, Ahmed Nu3ayna3, Mustafa Ismaeel etc. Quranic Recitations in Tajweed P.P.S. If you are interested, and I have a sneaking suspicion that you are not, in the grammer of arabic music, viz., the maqaamaat, then I would recommend that you read السلم الموسيقى by Ibrahim Waraq, or "The Music of Arabs" by Habib Touman.

The above-penned post states seven sufficient reasons for reciting the Quran. Equally important, although less conspicous, is the importance of listening to quranic recitations. I think lisenting to the Quran can be, at times, more fruitful than reciting it yourself, so much so, that it can effect a change in one's being. In this vein, I shall breifly paint an overview of the best and most melodious quranic recitation. For those of you who are ecstatically passionate about Quranic recitations- especially, the Mujawwad (slower recitation) as opposed to the Murattal (faster recitation)- you shall esteem that certain recitors have been endowed with a talent. It is simply impossible to imitate them unless you have a like apptidude. The seven chief Atwaar or Maqaamaat- اطوار او مقامات- (Nahawand, Sega, saba, hijaz, bayyat, and rast) can be recombined and mixed to create around 150 new Atwaar. Though the seven main "ladders of melody" are euphonious when recited properly, the Atwaar that are created by the creative mixing of the seven Maqaamaat are simply remarkable. Of course, some recitors have had more success with some specific maqamaat, and it is only natural that one enjoys listening to these parts more. Muhammad Siddeeq Al Minshawi (Mercy upon him. He is, by far, the most spiritual recitor, who represents a new school of recitation [following in his father's footsteps]. He recites creatively in sega, cheharga, hijaz, nahawand, saba, bayyat, and rast, and has a very deep, rich and emotional voice [his voice is a gift]. In his earlier recitaitons his voice was very sharp. Every one of his recitations contains something new, and although I have heard, and studied and analyzed some of them hundreds of times, I can still listen to them as fresh recitations. Of course, he recites in the six maqamaat (mentioned here) in every recitation, and projects the meaning of the verses. All the recitors in his family follow his school) 'Abd Al-bassit (Mercy upon him. He is an exceptionally gifted recitor. He has a very long breath, very strong cords, and avery clear (and high) voice. The most popular recitor in the world, and the first recitor to commercialize his recordings. I think he has the most imitators as a recitor. Although relatively simple, his style requires amazing gifts, such as strength in voice, length in breath, with cords that can easily hit the highest notes and keep them for good 35 seconds at a time. Normally, he recites creatively in hijaz, saba, rast, and 'ajam, (rarely sega). Some video recorded recitations of his are very "provocative". Here are a few musts: al fatiheh, maryam, youssuf, al hashr, al qyiameh, an-naba', at-takweer, at-tariq, al-ghaghyieh, al fajr, al balad, ash-shams, ad-duha, ash-sharh, and at-teen) Mahmoud Khaleel Al husaree (Mercy upon him. A scholar of recitation and a recitor. He exemplefies the perfect execution in the grammar of recitation. Further, his perfect pronunciation is the result of a lot of practice and, as a result, he is unmatched in tarteel. His tajweed is perhaps the calmest among the big recitors. Mustafa Isma'eel (Mercy upon him. He is, in my opinion, the most capable and creative recitor in terms of melody, because he recites creatively, even invents with genius, in rast, hijaz, nahawand, saba, 'ajam, chaharga, bayyiat and sega. His voice needs at least a good 8 minutes of warm up. He can hit exceptionally high notes. Though his voice is not very smooth, and his breath is not very long, but his unexpected turns and manoeuvres in melody, and his very strong cords more than make up for it. Finally, he has many "provocative" recitations. For example, I love and just cannot handle that crazy surge that pervades my spirit, body, and emotions when I hear the Nahawand by Mustafa Ismael. I think I have let myself go... this is enough fow now With Salaams PK P.S. It would be unfair to compare Egyptian reciters to reciters of the gulf states. The latter group is infinitely inferior in terms of recitation.

From this thread, or rather font, you shall drink from the words of the great Sufi poet, Suldaan Al-'Ashiqin, Ibn Al-Farid. ولقــد خـلوت مـع الحـبيب وبيننـا ســر أرق مــن النسـيم إذا سـرى وأبــاح طــرÙÙŠ نظــرة أملتهــا Ùغــدوت معروÙــا وكـنت منكـرا Ùدهشــت بيــن جمالــه وجلالـه وغــدا لسـان الحـال منـي مجـهرا Ùـأدر لحـاظك Ùـي محاسـن وجهـه تلقـى جـميع الحسـن Ùيـه مصـورا لـو أن كـل الحسـن يكمـل صـورة ورآه كـــان مهلـــلا ومكـــبرا **************************************** زدنــي بÙـرط الحـب Ùيـك تحـيرا وارحـم حشـى بلظـى هـواك تسعرا وإذا ســــألتك أن أراك حقيقـــة Ùاسـمح ولا تجـعل جـوابي لـن ترى يـا قلـب أنـت وعـدتني Ùـي حـبهم صـبرا Ùحـاذر أن تضيـق وتضجـرا إن الغــرام هـو الحيـاة Ùمـت بـه صبــا Ùحــقك أن تمـوت وتعـذرا ***************************************** زدنــي بÙـرط الحـب Ùيـك تحـيرا وارحـم حشـى بلظـى هـواك تسعرا وإذا ســــألتك أن أراك حقيقـــة Ùاسـمح ولا تجـعل جـوابي لـن ترى يـا قلـب أنـت وعـدتني Ùـي حـبهم صـبرا Ùحـاذر أن تضيـق وتضجـرا إن الغــرام هـو الحيـاة Ùمـت بـه صبــا Ùحــقك أن تمـوت وتعـذرا ****************************************** Ù‡ÙÙˆÙŽ الحÙبّ Ùاسلمْ بالحشا ما الهَوَى سَهْل٠Ùَما اختارَه٠مÙضْنًى بهÙØŒ وله٠عَقْل٠وعÙشْ خالياً Ùالحبّ٠راحتÙه٠عناً وأوّلÙه٠سÙقْمٌ، وآخÙرÙه٠قَتْل٠ولكنْ لديَّ الموت٠Ùيه صبابة Ù‹ حَياة ÙŒ لمَن أهوَى ØŒ عليّ بها الÙَضْل٠نصحتÙÙƒÙŽ علماً بالهوى والَّذي أرَى Ù…ÙخالÙتي Ùاخترْ لنÙسكَ ما يحلو Ùإنْ Ø´Ùئتَ أنْ تحيا سَعيداً، ÙÙŽÙ…Ùتْ به٠شَهيداً، وإلاّ Ùالغرام٠لَه٠أهْل٠Ùَمَنْ لم ÙŠÙŽÙ…Ùتْ ÙÙŠ Ø­Ùبّه٠لم يَعÙشْ بهÙØŒ ودونَ اجتÙناءَالنّحل٠ما جنت٠النّحل٠تمسّكْ بأذيال٠الهوى واخلعْ الحيا وخلّ٠سبيلَ النَّاسكينَ وإنْ جلّÙوا وقلْ لقتيل٠الحبّ٠وÙَّيتَ حقَّه٠وللمدَّعي هيهاتَ مالكحل٠الكحل٠تعرّضَ قومٌ للغرامÙØŒ وأعرضوا ØŒ بجانبهمْ عنْ صحّتي Ùيه٠واعتلّÙوا رَضÙوا بالأماني، وَابتÙلوا بحÙظوظÙÙ‡ÙÙ… ØŒ وخاضوا بحارَالحبّ، دعوَى ØŒ Ùما ابتلّوا ÙÙŽÙ‡Ùمْ ÙÙŠ السّرى لم يَبْرَحوا من مكانهم وما ظَعنوا ÙÙŠ السّيرÙعنه، وقد كَلّوا عن مَذهَبي، لمّا استَحَبّوا العمى على الـ ـهÙدى حَسَداً من عÙند٠أنÙÙسÙهم ضَلّوا أحبَّة ÙŽ قلبي والمحبَّة ٠شاÙعي لدَيكÙمْ، إذا Ø´ÙئتÙمْ بها اتّصَل الحبل٠عسَى عَطÙÙŽØ© ÙŒ منكÙمْ عَليّ بنَظرَة ÙØŒ Ùقدْ تعبتْ بيني وبينكم٠الرّÙسل٠أحبَّايَ أنتمْ أحسنَ الدَّهر٠أمْ أسا Ùكونوا كما شئتمْ أنا ذلكَ الخلّ٠إذا كانَ حَظّي الهَجرَمنكم، ولم يكن بÙعادٌ، Ùذاكَ الهجر٠عندي هوَ الوَصْل وما الصّدّ إلاّ الوÙدّ، ما لم يكنْ Ù‚Ùلًى ØŒ وأصعب٠شئ٠غيرَ إعراضكمْ سهل٠وتعذيبكمْ عذبٌ لديَّ وجوركمْ عليَّ بما يقضي الهوى لكم٠عدل٠وصبري صبرٌ عنكمْ وعليكمْ أرى أبداً عندي مرارته٠تحلو أخذتمْ Ùؤادي وهوَ بعضي Ùما الَّذي يَضَرّكÙم٠لو كانَ عÙندَكَم٠الكÙلّ نأيتمْ Ùغيرَ الدَّمع٠لمْ أرَ واÙياً سوى زÙرة ٠منْ حرّ٠نار٠الجوى تغلو Ùسهديَ حيٌّ ÙÙŠ جÙوني مخلَّدٌ ونومي بها ميتٌ ودمعي له٠غسل٠هوى Ù‹ طلَّ ما بينَ الطّÙلول٠دمي Ùمنْ جÙÙوني جرى بالسّÙح٠من سَÙØ­ÙÙ‡ وَبل٠تبالَهَ قومي، إذ رأوني Ù…Ùتَيّماً، وقالوا يمنْ هذا الÙتى مسَّه٠الخبل٠وماذا عسى عنّÙÙŠ يقال٠سوى غدا بنعم٠له٠شغلٌ نعمْ لي لها شغل٠وقالَ Ù†Ùساء٠الحَيّ:عَنّا بذكر٠مَنْ جÙانا وبعدَ العزّ٠لذَّ له٠الذلّ٠إذا أنعَمَتْ Ù†Ùعْمٌ عليّ بنَظرة ÙØŒ Ùلا أسعدتْ سعدي ولا أجملتْ جمل٠وقد صَدÙئَتْ عَيني بÙرؤية ٠غَيرÙها، ولَثم٠جÙÙوني تÙربَها للصَّدا يجلو وقدْ علموا أنّÙÙŠ قتيل٠لحاظها Ùإنَّ لها ÙÙŠ كلّ٠جارحة ٠نصل٠حَديثي قَديمٌ ÙÙŠ هواها، وما Ù„ÙŽÙ‡ÙØŒ كماعلمتْ بعدٌ وليسَ لها قبل٠وما ليَ Ù…Ùثلٌ ÙÙŠ غَرامي بها، كمَا Ùإن حَدّثوا عَنها، ÙÙƒÙلّي مَسامعٌ، حرامٌ Ø´Ùاسقمي لديها رضيت٠ما به٠قسمتْ لي ÙÙŠ الهوى ودمي حلّ٠Ùحالي وإنْ ساءَتْÙقد حَسÙنَتْ به٠وما حطّ قدري ÙÙŠ هواها به أعْلو وعنوان٠ما Ùيها لقيت٠ومابه٠شقيت٠وÙÙŠ قولي اختصرت٠ولمْ أغل٠خÙيت٠ضنى Ù‹ حتَّى لقدْ ضلَّ عائدي وكيÙÙŽ تَرى العÙوّاد٠مَن لا له ظÙلّ وما عثرَتْ عَينٌ على أثَري، ولم تدعْ لي رسماً ÙÙŠ الهوى الأعين٠النّÙجل٠ولي همَّة ÙŒ تعلو إذا ما ذكرتها وروحٌ بذÙكراها، إذا رَخÙصَتْ، تغلÙÙˆ جَرَى Ø­ÙبّÙها مَجَرى دمي ÙÙŠ Ù…ÙŽÙاصلي، Ùأصبَحَ لي، عن كلّ Ø´ÙغلÙØŒ بها شغل٠ÙناÙÙس ببَذل٠النَّÙس٠Ùيها أخا الهوَى ØŒ Ùإن قبلتها منكَ ياحبَّذا البذل٠ÙÙ…ÙŽÙ† لم يجÙدْ، ÙÙŠ Ø­Ùبّ٠نÙعْمÙØŒ بنÙسÙه، ولو جادَ بالدّنيا، إليه٠انتهَى البÙخل٠ولولا مراعاة ٠الصّÙيانة ٠غيرة Ù‹ ولو كثروا أهل الصَّبابة ٠أو قلّÙوا لقÙلت٠لÙعÙشّاق٠الملاحة Ù:أقبÙلوا إليها، على رأيي، وعن غيرÙها ولّوا وإنْ ذكرتْ يوماً ÙخرّÙوا لذكرها سجوداً وإنْ لاحتْ إلى وجهها صلّÙوا ÙˆÙÙŠ حبّها بÙعت٠السّعادة ÙŽ بالشّقا ضلالاً وعقلي عنْ هدايَ به٠عقل٠وقÙلت٠لرÙشْدي والتّنَسكÙØŒ والتّقَى : تخَلَّوا، وما بَيني وبَينَ الهوَى خَلّوا ÙˆÙرغت٠قلبي عنْ وجودي مخلصاً لَعَلّيَ ÙÙŠ Ø´Ùغلي بها، مَعَها أخلو ومÙÙ† أجلÙها أسعى Ù„Ùمَنْ بَينَنا سَعى ØŒ وأغدو ولا أعدو لمنْ دأبه٠العذل٠Ùأرتاح٠للواشينَ بيني وبينها لتَعْلَمَ ماألقَى ØŒ وما عندَها جَهل٠وأصبو إلى العذّال، Ø­Ùبّاً لذكرÙها ØŒ كأنّهÙÙ…ÙØŒ مابينَنا ÙÙŠ الهوى رÙسل٠وكÙلّيَ، إن حَدّثتÙÙ‡Ùمْ، ألسÙÙ†ÙŒ تَتلو تَخالَÙَت٠الأقوال٠Ùينا، تبايÙناً، برَجْم٠ظÙنون٠بَينَنا، ما لها أصل٠Ùشَنّعَ قومٌ بالوÙصالÙØŒ ولم تَصÙÙ„ØŒ وأرجÙÙŽ بالسّÙلوان٠قومٌ ولمْ أسل٠Ùما صدَّقَ التَّشنيع٠عنها لشقوتي وقد كذبَتْ عني الأراجيÙ٠والنّقْل٠وكيÙÙŽ أرجّي وَصْلَ مَنْ لو تَصَوّرَتْ حماها المنى وهماً لضاقتْ بها السّÙبل٠وإن وَعدَتْ لم يَلحَق٠الÙÙعل٠قَوْلها Ø› وإنْ أوعدتْ Ùالقول٠يسبقه٠الÙعل٠عÙديني بÙوَصلÙØŒ وامطÙلي بÙنَجازÙÙ‡ÙØŒ Ùعندي إذا صحَّ الهوى حسنَ المطل٠وَحÙرْمة ٠عَهْد٠بينَنا، عنه لم أحÙلْ، وعَقـد٠بأيد٠بينَنا، ما له حَل٠لأنتÙØŒ على غَيظ٠النّوى ورÙضَى الهَوَى ØŒ لديَّ وقلبي ساعة Ù‹ منك٠ما يخلو ترى مقلتي يوماً ترى منْ أحبّÙهمْ ويَعتÙبÙني دَهْري، ويَجتمÙع٠الشَّمل٠وما برحوا معنى Ù‹ أراهمْ معي Ùإنْ نأوا صورة Ù‹ ÙÙŠ الذّÙهن٠قامَ لهمْ شكل٠Ùهمْ نصبَ عيني ظاهراً حيثما سروا وهمْ ÙÙŠ Ùؤادي باطناً أينما حلّÙوا لهمْ أبداًَ منّÙÙŠ حنوٌّ وإنْ جÙوا ولي أبداً ميلٌ إلَيهÙمْ، وإنْ مَلّوا Source Source