Originally posted by Pi: Islamic Caliphate is the territory of the "male elite". Thats just one position.... but as you can follow from the line of argument Nur was making, he excluded women from all political participation (using this hadeeth) and confined them to house and the intellectually-stimulating position of a 'husband's advisor'. .

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: Those hadiths, and many more, were rejected not on the basis of an unreliable character of a sahaabi, but for other relevant reasons walaal. If my memory serves me right, that’s the exact reason a lot of hadeeth were rejected Xiin - on the questionable character of transmitters. Infact, people with questionable characters or self-interest in their transmissions were dismissed - whether they have come across the prophet or not. Not the mention, Bukhari cross examined almost all of the hadeeth and only accepted a hadeeth that was narrated from more than one person as people were fabricating hadeeth left right and centre to suit them. Again, refer to the definition of a companion and you'll see how its impractical to say that every companion was a saint. Maybe Nur can shed light on this subject as he seems to know the science of hadeeth better. I'm in no way attacking the character of Abu Bakra (I actually merely regurgitated what I read on the subject for someone to shed some light - Alas, no1 did) and maybe instead of focusing on the character of the transmitter, we can move this debate forward and discuss the hadeeth’s applicability. Thanks.

Originally posted by Jimcaale: No, what it boils down to is that if a woman can lead a prayer since Muslim leaders have the responsibility of leading prayers especially in congregational prayers like Juma and Eid. I think we need to clarify what we are debating here... because I see a clear distinction, for example, between presidency and the position of Amir al-Muminin in an Islamic state. As you're all probably aware, being able to lead a congregation in prayer is not in the job description of the president of Somalia, Egypt, Tunisia, etc etc etc... most of the Muslim countries. Infact, I often notice them standing behind an Imam on the rare occasions they are seeing praying! So I see no connection between leading prayers and being a president or a prime ministers or for that matter, being involved in policy making, which is a line of work that I would never accept should be reserved for men (sorry.. but no1 is barring me from driving or telling me how to dress...certainly not a bunch guys who it doesn’t impact)

What you say Xiin.. is just that. Who is considered a companion? A Companion is anyone , man or woman, who met the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)—whether for a short or long period—and who died while still Muslim. Many of the Companions were relatives, wives, servants, or close friends of the Prophet. The details of the Prophet’s life—including his words, deeds, and reactions to events—have been handed down to us through the Companions. These accounts form the collection of Hadiths from which we derive the Sunnah, which is the second basis of Islamic law after the Qur’an. Source Keeping that in mind, the companions narrated about 600 thousand hadeeths of which more than 590 thousand were discarded. Are you telling me questioning a hadeeth by a companion isn't 'fair' game? I'll let you ponder that good Xiin. This isn’t about belittling the companions of the prophet, but getting to the bottom of a hadeeth that is used and abused and has become an insurmountable obstacle in the path of muslimah's becoming equal participants in the societies they live in and to the overall stagnation in Muslim countries. And may I add 'a stand-alone' hadeeth at that. The collators of hadeeth used scientific, stringent and reasoned basis for selecting hadeeth. If someone uses the same logical basis to re-examine a hadeeth, I see no problems with it. Its so sad that those ways are lost in today's Muslims and they are content in being passive consumers living off utopian ideas and on the glory of the past because the present is just too miserable.

Gentlemen, you havent really provided any refutation with regards to my query on the hadeeth (Biggin up the rep of Abu Bakrah doesnt count as one @Khayr). Besides the baseless and quite frankly half-witted character assasination of Mernissi, do we have anything else on the table? Its quite clear, that there is grounds for doubt, and I dont see anyone proving the contrary (it would be nice if you guys could interject some logic, commonsense and pragmatism while you're at it).

Did ya all know the SMS feature on the home page is working? Or have you bookmarked the forum and never checked the home page after the 1st day, like me? Wel..it is, so send your free sms away! This is my number if you want to send me any = 44-7-I-love-amelia. p.s. Remember to put your name at the end of the message as a 'from' number is not included. I just sent a couple of texts and the people I sent them to thought they received a text from SOL!

Salaams Nur, Since you’ve taken it upon yourself to research on the matter and present your ‘informed’ analysis, I hope you’ll be willing to clear a few things for me. Let me first address the hadeeth by Abu Bakrah (not to be confused with Abu Bakar Al-Siddique RA) stating that those nations who entrust their affairs (A clarification of this word in its Arabic context would be nice) to a woman are doomed to failure (And if I may add the contradiction in reality, specially in the case of Somalia, led by our 'God-blessed' Somali men). Have you really done a thorough research and come to a conclusive conclusion? Or like most people, skimmed, read what you wanted to read and taken the path of least resistance? Having done my own bit and read the historical context of this hadeeth, as Stoic said, it was reported by Abu Bakrah - an ex-slave who embraced Islam and whose freedom was bargained for by the prophet scw and as a result had his status catapulted and gained economic progress. Like most people of his status at the time, his lineage is unclear and history blur. He reported this hadeeth at a rather opportune moment when he didn’t join one or the other in the ‘battle of the camel’ between Aisha and Ali, as his reason for not joining Aisha, who enjoyed the support of the populace of Basra, where he resided. Some contemporary writers, historians and scholars doubt the authenticity of this hadeeth due to his murky past, both in his personal history and the fact that he was convicted of and flogged for false testimony in a zina case by Umar Ibn al-khattab. According to Malik, one of the criteria for taking a hadeeth from a transmitter depends on them being known not to lie in other affairs. So, why is this hadeeth in Bukhari then? The closest collection to authentic hadeeth? And why is this single hadeeth taken as unequivocal proof when there is nothing in the Quran for the same? Moving on, I’m confused as to what this hadeeth exactly vindicates. Is this the position of Amir al-Muminin in an established Islamic State? The Presidency of a Muslim Country by majority? Does it extend to other roles in politics? Men and women are a wholsome unit in a society, and no single gender can achieve success witthout the other, Allah SWT says, " Walaa tansawu al fadla beynakum" meaning, do not forget (to pay attention to) the FADL ( responsibility of men for women) and ( womens contribution to family welbeing) between you ( men and wolmen). That fadl, when forgotten, we have a break up of the family unit, and the community in general. Men are Qawaamuun ( Head of households, Guardians, caretakers, Trustees, defenders, protectors) of women, as an excercise of that (authority) which Allah has vested upon them (instead of women), and for their (role) as (responsible) for funding requiremnts (of household expenditure) I can’t say your interpretation of these verses and using them as justification for the above hadith plus your pigeon-holing of a woman’s role in society leaves a lot to be desired. Will b back upon your reply to the hadeeth issue!

^ Thanks for quickly wiping that smile off my face, I didnt expect any different. Nomad Xiin is a chauvinist and some1 like Khayr who constantly tries to overcome his insecurities about women by dipping into sacred text to prove women are inferior could never ever ever ever (cant emphasise it enough) do a better job than a woman as the head of a country...thats a fact no amount of self serving interpretations will change. Salaams.

Nur, that post made me smile.. its been a while since I smiled after reading one of your posts. Viking, I totally agree with you about taking single hadiths in isolation. One such that grates on my nerves is the 'muslims will break into 73 sects' one... its the #1 excuse for muslims to be passive, separate, turn a blind eye to each other's suffering and denigrate one another. What about the concept of muslim ummah? Is there even meant to be such a thing? Will there ever b? One state, one khalifah? On one hand we see people calling for the ummah to unite.. on the other, we see them willingly dividing. Muslims are confused... do you think they know what they want?

Grim stats. I wish women would look at these stats and change their attitudes. I always feel like women are themselves their greatest enemy. Alot of them dont feel like they can contribute much to society and never act on it.

Originally posted by Xoogsade: Were you taken aback by how Amelia dismissed me as an utter rubbish? I wasnt dismissing you and most certainly not as rubbish. I apologise if you felt so. Friends?

Can you want to dream about something and then get it? When my older brother passed away 8yrs ago in an accident, it was too abrupt for me to take. I remember praying that I meet him in a dream and have a last 'coversation' with him. A week later and I had the most amazing and almost real-like dream where we had a long conversation and it just felt like I was in his company for a very long time after the dream. It sort of served as a closure for me.

^ What vanity! Lord help us poor women in love! :rolleyes: Pi, I try and choose my debates. This one is in the bag.. has been from the start. Nothing to rebutt in Xiin's superficial worries and Xoogsade's personal rants.

Pi, good old Xiin has sixth sense and is aware of things that go 'deeper than this cyber ground'. :rolleyes: Xoogsade, it seems you have a problem sticking to the topic at hand and addressing the said subject in threads. May I suggest not putting my name in the title next time you want to rant?

What is this?.. bitter Faraaxs club? *Makes a dash for the exit*

1% of the titled land in the world is owned by women. A baby girl born in the UK is likely to live to 81 - but if she is born in Swaziland, she is likely to die at 39 . 70% of the 1.2 billion people living in poverty are women and children. 21% of the world's managers are female. 62% of unpaid family workers are female. 9% of judges, 10% of company directors and 10% of top police officers in the UK are women. Women comprise 55% of the world's population aged over 60 years old and 65% of those aged over 80. £970,000 is the difference between lifetime earnings of men and women in the UK finance sector. 85 million girls worldwide are unable to attend school, compared with 45 million boys. In Chad, just 4% of girls go to school. 700,000,000 women are without adequate food, water, sanitation, health care or education (compared with 400,000,000 men). Women in full-time jobs earn an average 17% less than British men. Women in part-time jobs earn an average 42% less than British men. 67% of all illiterate adults are women. 1,440 women die each day during childbirth (a rate of one death every minute). 1 in 7 women in Ethiopia die in pregnancy or childbirth (it is one in 19,000 in Britain). In the US, 35% of lawyers are women but just 5% are partners in law firms. In the EU, women comprise 3% of chief execs of major companies. 12 is the number of world leaders who are women (out of 191 members of the United Nations). Men directed 9 out of every 10 films made in 2004. And some of these stats are reflective of 'progressive' societies that have come a long way. What it is to be a woman Source It isnt all gloom tho.. there is a glimmer of hope (for western women or those in the west at least)...

^ Ma anaad is haysataa mise SB mise Ayan Hirsi mise wax kalaa ku haya? (never thought I would have my name in that sentence :eek: ). I cant b bothered to sort our your messy points X. You're all over the place and I, still, dont know what you're objecting to. You write like a typical Somali ... plenty of generalizations, exaggerations, misdirected frustration and an inherent aversion to self-reflection! SB, ninkan waalan is all yours.

Q. Are you married? A. I have not answered a personal question on these forums for 5 years. Is that so? Sharing your background, hobbies, inspirations, beliefs, occupation, etc is not personal eh? Hilarious! You're just unwilling to share your marital status iska dheh... and I'm sure for good reasons...there is no ceeb in that, good-wadaad although he believes that there is nothing as precious on earth like the Somali Woman , If Allah blesses him in paradise, his Xuur Al Ayn will be a Somali. One of my unfinished articles combining paradise and Somali Women is titled " Preserving The Amazon Valley And The Somali Hijabi Woman" two great undiscovered rich resources. No doubt. Precious and best in numbers

^You are calling me semi-gifted and restless? . Maybe I should go and jump off that proverbial bridge Xoogsade was pointing Socod badne to... waxba iima hadhine

^ Thats interesting and just what Khayr needs

^ *Wave* Laakiin why are you picking on SB? He has made perfectly legitimate and applaud-worthy points in this thread. Is there anything you specifically didn’t agree with?

Originally posted by Jimcaale: Somali girls attempting suicide for faaraxs? Yup. Hard to blv. Tolerating Faaraxs = Understandable Liking Faaraxs = plausible Loving Faaraxs = slightly worrisome Dying for Faaraxs = absolutely insane

A little too much bollywood influence, perhaps?

The irony is though you are blowing your stack about the mere mention of ‘intact’ and still want to defend a more graphic stuff! How plausible is that, my dear? Very plausabile. I'm not the subject. Simple.

Originally posted by Jimcaale: Washamsi maa la qaadooyaa idinka Ducaqabe, this is one of the countless times, I dont understand your supposed somali at all. I've absolutely no clue what the above sentence means... af soomaali la garanayo maxaa kuu diidey?