I don't like this Togane dude- not at all!

Well, Qacbaro, your Somalisized-english reminds me the guy who said to his wife, "I open you, because you cut my leg". Education, or rather knowledge is not limited by a degree, so if we are speaking about university degrees, then i couldn't care any less (although it would be nice if he could hold a professional job). But i do make it a requirement that he must be intellectually challenging. I wouldn't want anyone who couldn't hold a stimulating conversation on various issues. Furthermore, Islamic knowledge is a must. This to me is far more important than all the secular knowledge possible.

Rahima, you must be reer Gaalkacyood right? reer Gaalkacyood are the smartest Somalis, b/c we drink water of Ceelka Bardacad. This water makes people smart, so they say! Folk tale really :rolleyes: . If this was case waryaa, so many warlords would not hail from this region. Let's be honest, we have brought most of the continous destruction to the country. As for me, i was born and raised (only if for a short while) in sweet old Xamar , and it is there that i love and inshallah wish to return to once we in Somalia achieve peace, but yes i've been told that i am reer gaalkacyood. I'm confused actually :confused:

Salafi_online A whole load of fatwas for you to read, enjoy 1. First this statement is inaccurate for there is no unity with the innovators, I would not have mention this, but you used the wordâ€Never†thus I think its important I clarify that. There is no Unity with the innovators. Plus not every innovation leads to disbelieve,so to limit disunity with the kufar is absolutely not how the salaf understood this deen! this also includes the people of desire,(Ahlul Hawa) We hold fast on the rope of Allah upon the proper Aqeeda and manhaj; that of the Salaf! WRONG. Like I said, there is never complete disunity from a Muslim (even one that commits an act of bidca which does not take him/her out of the fold of Islam). Daleels are: Question : Is it permissible to give charity and financial help to one who follows some innovations?. Answer : Praise be to Allaah. …. People vary with regard to faith and Islam. Some of them fear Allaah and have faith more than others. Thus each person varies in the degree to which he is entitled to the rights of friendship, depending on the degree of his religious commitment, although they all come under the general heading of the friendship that is required in Islam. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Fataawa, 28/209: Allaah sent the Messengers and revealed the Books so that the religion (worship) would all be for Allaah, so that love would be for His close friends and hate for His enemies; so that His close friends would be honoured and His enemies humiliated; so that the reward would be for His close friends and the punishment would be for His enemies. If good and evil, obedience and disobedience, Sunnah and bid’ah, coexist in a person, then he is deserving of friendship and reward to the extent that he is good, and he deserves enmity and punishment to the extent that he is bad. So the reasons for honouring and humiliating may coexist in a person; both may coexist in him – such as a poor thief whose hand is cut off for stealing, but he is given enough from the bayt al-maal (treasury) to meet his needs. This is the basic principle upon which Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah are agreed… The answer to this question is based on this general principle. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: There is some bid’ah for which a person may be excused, there is some which reaches the degree of fisq (evildoing) and there is some that reaches the degree of kufr. With regard to those who follow bid’ah that constitutes kufr, it is not permissible to help them at all, even if they call themselves Muslims, because their calling themselves Muslims whilst they persist in that bid’ah that constitutes kufr, even after evidence has been established against them, means that they are akin to the hypocrites who said, “we bear witness that you are the Messenger of Allaah,†but Allaah said (interpretation of the meaning): “Allaah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, and Allaah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed†[al-Munaafiqoon 63:1] With regard to innovation that constitutes fisq (evildoing), or for which a person may have a justifiable excuse, the fact that they follow bid’ah does not mean that we are not allowed to help them. They should be helped against their kaafir enemies because they are undoubtedly better than those kuffaar. Al-Baab al-Maftooh, 1/66 2. and as for your statement that no country rules by the shariyah,Im Shocked you would made such statements. Why? It’s right on the ball! There is no country that at this moment which rules by he shareeca as it should be ruled by. The huduud example you gave brother (i.e. that even though the hand-cutting of a thief may not be enforced) could still fall under the shareeca, for there are circumstances which could over look that (there could be poverty for example and the person was not provided for, hence the blame is on the leadership), however as is evident in the following fatwa, issues such as riba cannot for they are clear cut and are a matter of choice. Question : I have read many fatwas which forbid dealing with banks that engage in riba, but I have a question: If these banks are haraam and dealing with them is haraam, how can they have been allowed to develop in the Islamic states?. Answer : Praise be to Allaah. What is haraam is that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger, and what is halaal is that which has been permitted by Allaah and His Messenger. Riba is haraam according to the Qur’aan, the Sunnah and the consensus of the ummah. Every institution or bank which is based on riba is subject to the declaration of war from Allaah and His Messenger, whether it is in a Muslim state or a kaafir state. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Be afraid of Allaah and give up what remains (due to you) from Ribaa (from now onward) if you are (really) believers. And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allaah and His Messenger†[al-Baqarah 2:278-279] The fact that governments approve of the riba-based banks should not be taken as proof that these banks are permitted. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has told us that there will come a time when the people will permit that which Allaah has forbidden, such as adultery, alcohol and musical instruments. That does not mean that these haraam things will become permissible thereby. The scholars have issued many warnings against these banks, and issued many fatwas stating that it is haraam to work in them without paying any attention to the fact that they are allowed by the state. They have often advised the governments of Muslim countries to ban these riba-based banks. It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (15/51): “Riba is haraam according to the Qur’aan, the Sunnah and scholarly consensus… working in banks that deal with riba is haraam… The fact that the government may approve of them or allow them to open banks or remains silent about that does not mean that it is permissible for the Muslim to deal with them. It is not permissible to work in these banks because the government does not possess legislative authority; rather legislative authority belongs to Allaah alone in His holy Book, or the Revelation that He sent to His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).†And it also says (15/55): “Working in banks that deal with riba is haraam, whether that is in a Muslim state or in a kaafir state, because it involves cooperating in sin and transgression, which Allaah has forbidden as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Help you one another in Al Birr and At Taqwa (virtue, righteousness and piety); but do not help one another in sin and transgression†[al-Maa'idah 5:2] Shaykh Ibn Baaz said, after quoting some of the evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah that riba is haraam: “This is some of the evidence from the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which explains that riba is haraam and the danger that it poses to the individual and to the ummah. Whoever deals in it enters into a state of war against Allaah and His Messenger. My advice to every Muslim is to be content with that which Allaah and His Messenger have permitted and to refrain from that which Allaah and His Messenger have forbidden. What Allaah has permitted is sufficient so that we have no need of that which Allaah has forbidden. We should not be deceived by the large number of riba-based banks and the spread of their dealings in every place. Many people no longer care about Islamic rulings, rather they care about making money by any means. That is only because of their weakness of faith and lack of fear of Allaah, and because of their love for this world. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound.†Majallat al-Bukhooth al-Islamiyyah, 6/310 And Allaah knows best. Also, What are the actions which, if a Muslim does them, he will be an apostate from Islam?. Answer : Praise be to Allaah. Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Note that Allaah has commanded all people to enter Islam and to adhere to it and to beware of whatever is contrary to it. He sent His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to call mankind to that. He tells us that those who follow him will be guided and that those who turn away from him have gone astray. In many verses He warns against the means that lead to apostasy and all forms of shirk and kufr. The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have said, when discussing apostasy, that a Muslim may apostatize from his religion by doing many acts that nullify Islam, which makes it permissible to shed his blood and seize his wealth, and which will put him beyond the pale of Islam. Among the most serious and most common of these things are ten which were mentioned by Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab and other scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them all). We will mention them in brief here, so that you and others can beware of them, in the hope that you will be safe and sound. We will also explain a little about them after mentioning each one. …. 8 – Supporting the mushrikeen and helping them against the Muslims. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)†[al-Maa'idah 5:51] Is this not what the leadership of Saudi Arabia does? Brother you seem to be making a grave mistake. The salafi scholars are not in support of their government for they believe them to be on the path of righteousness but rather because of the element of preventing certain dilemmas which may arise. The other point is do you even know what the scholars mean when they say the Land of Tawheed? Can a country be called the land of tawheed and not rule by the shareeca as it should be ruled by? Wording differs from one person to another, for example i consider an Islamic state any country which rules by the shariica as it should be ruled by, but one the other hand other consider it to be any land where the Muslims are the majority. Nonetheless, please answer these and we shall go on from that. 3. Maybe your referring to Salma & Safar and there likes?!? Personally brother I am satisfied with the Q&S as far as self-evident points of Islam are concerned. I’m not sure why but you seem overly consumed with this and that scholar said this and that, which is why I have resorted to just points of scholars this time, for it seems daleels of Q&S are not sufficient for you as you seem to think it is an issue of particular understanding. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition? As for which scholars, firstly I respect and love both shaykh salman and safar and would quote them if the need arose. You my brother do not and can’t seem to comprehend the difference between refutation of a particular point and complete disagreement and attack of caqiidah. I suggest you read up more about refutations, you might begin to see that scholars do not always see eye to eye on everything and we as lay man should not jump on the banwagon of disrespect but rather respect those who have more knowledge than us. Nevertheless, I don’t really wish to get into this with you, like I’ve stated previously, you and I hold opposing views as far as these scholars are concerned, I love and respect them, you are in agreement with the folks at troid. Just like safar and salman, I will quote Hassan al-banna so long as what they are saying is not in contradiction with the diin. Question : Is the “Da’wah and Tableegh†group one of the misguided groups? And what about Sufism?. Answer : Praise be to Allaah. ….. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The words al-faqr and al-tasawwuf (i.e., Sufism) may include some things that are loved by Allaah and His Messenger, and these are things that are enjoined even if they are called faqr or tasawwuf, because the Qur’aan and Sunnah indicate that they are mustahabb and that is not altered if they called by other names. That also includes actions of the heart such as repentance and patience. And it may include things that are hated by Allaah and His Messenger, such as some kinds of belief in incarnation and pantheism, or monasticism that has been innovated in Islam, or things that go against sharee’ah and have been innovated, and so on. … The wise believer agrees with all people in that in which they are in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah and obey Allaah and His Messenger, but he does not agree with that in which they go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah and disobey Allaah and His Messenger. He accepts from every group that which was taught by the Messenger… when a person seeks the truth and justice, based on knowledge, he is one of the successful friends of Allaah and His victorious party… 4. Sis Rahima why did u mention him out of all the scholars and talibul Ilm out there, this strikes me as odd, wallah !Do u know something i dont ?!? i really wanna know! I’ll tell you why, because you have already told me that as for dr.Saleh Saleh i have regular contact with him, inshallah i shall speak to him! Anyway speak to him inshallah. Make sure that you fear Allah and tell the situation like it is. And do us the courtesy of bringing to us in writing (including the way you pose the question- many Muslims have the habit of distorting situation to suit their own purpose), it would be much appreciated.

Inshallah, we shall come to a common understanding next time. Better get some sleep, long day tommorow As for shipping, not my thing sister . I prefer to reason with people, less hassle .

^^^What took you so looooong to put your cards on the table. At last we know you're Somali Through and through brother . You made me laugh walaahi,lool, Who knows? Rahima might well have lineages traced backed all the way to Borama. By Somali standards, not the ones that count Are you sure about the BS part? I think it describes us very well. US? US :rolleyes: ? Brother, may be you and WD but certainly not levelheaded Rahima . I am far removed from such a thing, it is disgraceful really. As far as I’m concerned, then it is BS. You and WD, hmmm, not sure . Will get back to you on that one.

with an explanation of why you think the Islamic system of government is the right one Islam is the best way of life and governing! Hmmm, really? How? Why? Why do you assume that everyone is on the same boat as you and knows what you’re talking about? As for your first point brother, I am a Muslim, hence I believe in the Qur’an and Sunnah of Rasuallah. Having said that, for the reason that Allah states that to rule by other than His laws is disbelief, then I know that Islamic system of government is the right one. If I acknowledge that Allah is my creator, I acknowledge that He knows that which is best for me as an individual and a member of the Ummah and Allah tells me that the Islamic system of government is best for His creation (as is evident in the Qur’an). He said: "O you who believe, obey Allaah and obey His Messenger, and the people in authority among you. And if you dispute over anything, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger if you really believe in Allaah and the Last Day, that is best in terms of consequences." (4:59) It’s simple and logical really . Allaah says: "O you who believe! Uphold Islam in its entity (as a whole)." As for knowing what the Islamic system of government is, like I said brother, it is a wide topic :confused: . May be if we narrowed it down, we could all attempt to explain it to each other (with proofs). Personally I believe the nomad Nur would be best at that . He's far more knowledgable than i could ever hope to be, and inshallah may be even correct me on points which i may of have erred. After all, you don’t expect me to agree or disagree to your interpretation of this system of government when I don’t even know what it is, do you? I don’t believe I have volunteered any of my own interpretations. Lay men and women cannot interpret. My deficiencies I believe are well apparent . As for the snide remark, if I read you wrong, then I apologise walaal . The rolling eyes and I suppose construction of the sentence was somewhat off putting for me. It seems I was wrong. Rahima, can the two forms of governance not be inter-twined in such a way to serve prupose to what can be achieved? If one acknowledges brother that the Shariica is that sanctioned by Allah (and they believe in Allah), then naturally they must believe that it is a perfect system (with no deficiencies) and therefore does not need it to be inter-twined with any other systems. You can’t better that which is already perfect can you? For example, if some one is elected by the ppl to rule by Sheria and install the necesarry framework in order to achieve as such, with elected local elders, all aiming to acheive this same purpose,does this constitute to being a man made system? or can a Sheria system be achieved through a man made framework? Brother I can’t really say to be honest. But what I do know is that we need to take steps to achieve the ultimate goal. It may be that these steps are not those ordered by Allah, but we must work towards that ordered by Allah. This at least is what I’ve read and this is why I support any Somali government, for any government is better than chaos. On the other hand, whose to say that the example you have given opposes the shariica. The shariica acknowledges local leaders all representives of the Amir in their designated area. Is this what you were reffering to brother? My self you can't come to me with Salafia or Ahlul Sunnah wal jama'a. You’re right sister, I am a Sunni Muslim and you proclaim to be Shiica. We in essence even disagree on some of the basic fundamentals of Islam (assuming you adhere to the teachings of shiicaism), so the best system for Somalia would not even be much of a concern. People can only debate on issues if they agree upon the authenticity of the proof which they bring.

But your point is weak, your self (Somalia) never been Islamic State to ask other to be part of that islamic State. I never said that (which is why I said you did not read my response to brother salafi ). Where did I say that Somalia is an Islamic state? Just to refresh your memory , allow me to quote myself: I think not brother, and therefore it is for this reason that Somaliland, like Somalia , Saudi Arabia, and Egypt etc cannot be called Islamic states Even if we don’t have an Islamic state, we are still to remain united until one group of people becomes outright gaalo. Simple enough yet sister? This is my whole point put into one sentence. Maybe it’s my English, I don’t know, but I can’t see how I can possibly make it any clearer .

We all know Allah's rule is best for us but please as NGONGE said show me one successful Islamic state so we all will go and bepart of it? Like i've said in the other thread, there is no existing Islamic state at this point in Islamic history, however it does not mean that there was never one and never can be again. Islamic history is a testimony to the successes which can be achieved with the shariica. And anyway, how does this point relate to anything that was said ? The question i believe was what we thought to be the best system for us as Somalis, so naturally as Muslims i said the shariica? Am i wrong :confused: ? Do i think it is achievable in the future? Yes of course. Do i think it will be anytime in the near future? Probably not. Why? Because we fail to understand the basics. The prophet spend 13 years teaching the kalima. We need to build our foundations, but nevertheless, this does not mean that the shariica is not best. I am just realistic here. Somali never follow any Rules let alone Islam. Let's hope that that is not the case. Inshallah, although i know that any government formed will not establish the shariica, i will still support it of course (be he any of the warlords who are vowing for the posititon), for this is what is the correct position (as is said by the scholars). Inshallah in time though, our people will develop better understanding of the diin and the shariica will naturally follow.

Sister OG_girl, Likewise with all due respect, i believe you missed my point . I HAVE said that the whole of Somalia is not ruling by the shariica (which is in my last post), but that is beside the point. The ruling by the shariica issue was a point i was discussing with our brother salafi who said that he was not sure as to whether or not Somaliland was ruling by the shariica. The other point is, like i have already said, even if we are not ruling by the shariica it is still the responsibility of the Muslims to maintain the unity unless their is clear kufr of the people in general. I have given proofs to this. That is why I said we need to seperate here till we all apply it. This is your opinion, Islam says otherwise. I myself (my opinion) do not care if Somaliland seperates, each to their own i say, but still i won't let my opinion cloud that which i know to be correct. Element of hypocracy in me, i know. Islam establishes that the Islamic state is the form chosen by Allah for us to adopt, considering that the Khalifate was destroyed, this was the first mistake and anything left of that (i.e. further break up) is just another mistake. We need to start moving to the right if we are to conform with Allahs injunctions.

QUANTUM LEAP Brother, as Muslim I cannot support any system besides that which was revealed by Allah for to do so would be kufr. Allah says in so many places in the Qur’an that to rule by other than Allahs laws is disbelief: "And he who does not rule by what Allaah sent down, it is they who are the disbelievers." (5:44) "And he who does not rule by what Allaah sent down, it is they who are the wrongdoers." (5:45) "And he who does not rule by what Allaah sent down, it is they who are the rebellious." (5:47) And as for success and failure, it all depends on how you define failure and how you define success . But I do agree with you, mankind is at loss . At the moment, we should be concentrating on getting back to the basics of Islam, but this does not negate the point that I cannot believe in any other system other than that sanctioned by Allah (that is all i was trying to say). I see the argument for an Islamic system being repeated in several threads on this website! Nobody seems to give details of how this Shariica system works though. It would be very nice if we could get an explanation of such a system given to us. Brother, this is a discussion. We are hear to learn from one another, at least I am. We don’t need to continue to make snide remarks at one another. This is not the first time you seem to be doing just that. If you disagree with the opinions of a user then make respectful logical arguments . Aside from that, the shariica is whole system. One cannot go into all the intricacies of it all, which particular issues are you wanting to know about? If it may be that no one here has the answers, then I believe it is your responsibility as a Muslim to pursue that knowledge. Do not expect that everything will be dealt to you on a silver platter . There is a whole array of Islamic books concerning this topic, search them, read them and then I’m sure you will understand how the Shariica system should work.

All systems beside the Shariica will lead to failure and disaster. Man made laws are bound for ruin, Allah knows that which is best for His creations, and hence has given us the Shariica. Therefore if we know what is good for us we should adopt it as our system of governance. Anything else, as far as a Muslim is concerned is nonsense.

And what is peculiar about reer Mudug, if I may ask? Nothing in particular. All i was saying to WD was that the excuse of "reer mudug outburst" was not good enough. Hotheadedness they say is an attribute of the reer mudug person (all BS of course). thought I was the only reer Mudug in town, so that means my reer Mudug act is exposed eyh? You thought you were the only one? Interesting. I'm sure there are plenty, its just that many of us are happy with just Somali . And yes, it seems you have been exposed .

WD, the reer mudug excuse ain’t going to hold up brother . Ship shape your act, you aren’t the only reer mudug around .

Salafi_online. 1.There is no country on this Earth which rules by the Shariica (the shariica is a whole system). Allow me to present you with daleel from the words of the Most High: Allah says in Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah 278, “"O you who believe, fear Allah and leave what comes from Riba (Usury) if you are believers. If you do not do so, then wait for a war from Allah and His Messengerâ€. Now, tell me which country does not have riba-based banks as part of its economy? I believe that you and I both agree that you cannot take parts of the shariica whilst leaving others; therefore can you call any country which exercises riba as Islamic? I think not brother, and therefore it is for this reason that Somaliland, like Somalia, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt etc cannot be called Islamic states. It is essential to document that there are several differences concerning an Islamic state and Islam being a state religion (that the majority of the populace are Muslims; hence it is Daar-ul-islaam). In an Islamic state all rulings must stringently kowtow to Islamic Shari`ah (the haduud example you gave for theft is to kowtow with the shariica) but if a state proclaims 'Islam as its religion', it means that Islam is favoured to all other religions and it receives a greater privilege than all other religions in the country. My point here was not a personalized target against Somaliland, rather to establish the point that you cannot say that Somaliland is an Islamic state (which by default makes it unislamic anyway) for there is no Islamic state. This is a matter agreed upon by the scholars (that there is no Islamic state at this point in Islamic history). 2.Islamic system of government. An Islamic government brother, adopts the shariica as its legal system and the Khalif as the leader of the state. An Islamic government is one that rejects, abhors and fights any elements which oppose the shariica, such as riba. Another point for us to note is that with in an Islamic government, the concept of opposition parties is also rejected; rather Islam teaches the productive concept of what is called Shuura. Opposition parties are challengers to the leader, Shuura on the other hand is a consultative council. With the Islamic form of government, an attempt to replace the leader is made only when the leader opposes the injunctions set by Allah (that there is evidence of clear kufr, as is decided by the scholars) and so long as the principle of maslaxa (public interest) is kept in tact, opposition parties however serve the purposes of their own thinking rather than that which is set by Allah. Once again, because Somaliland establishes the system of having opposition parties it cannot be considered an Islamic state (i.e. that its legal system is based completely on the unadulterated Shariica). If it is believed that by overthrowing a leader, the harm will outweigh any good that can possibly come of it, then the Islamic ruling states that the Muslims in a bid to maintain the unity and peace put up with their leader, even if he may be a tyrant. This concept is evident in the story of Xajaaj ibn Yusuf which I’m sure most have heard. This man massacred the saxaba left and right to the point that blood was often flowing in the houses of Allah. He slaughtered Abdullah ibn Zubair (RA), yet in light of all the injustices that were been committed by this leader, the remaining saxaba and taabiciin did not attempt to overthrow Xajaaj, in fact they still prayed behind him in salat (the saxabi Cabdullah ibn Cumar in an example which comes to mind). There is an important lesson in this. Read up the history surrounding this story and you will learn to what extent the saxaba valued unity. If we claim to be trying to follow the saxaba as best as possible, then it is only fitting that we overlook the propaganda fed to us and value the unity as much as they did. 3.The importance of Unity. Allah says in the Qur’an “"And hold fast, All together, by the rope Which Allah, and be not divided among yourselves;" [3:103] With this verse we understand that Muslims are only to be united upon the book of Allah-i.e. the rope of Allah (and hence Sunnah of His blessed prophet s.c.w). Therefore in the Somali case, since our people are not holding on to the rope of Allah (collectively), then do we go on to disregard the entire ayah? No of course not, rather we work towards the establishment of the first part of the ayah so as to heed the warning in the second part. Now looking at the Somali situation, I ask you, where does the disunity of a people fit into this. Somalis are Muslims, and therefore since this is the case, the separation of one group against another cannot be justified for Muslims can only disunite completely upon the grounds of clear kufr. This is evident in a hadith narrated by Anas ibn Malik, Rasuallah said (paraphrasing) that there would come a time when the leaders of the Muslims would delay the salat and he (Rasuallulah) instructed the saxaba to not delay the salat and pray on time in their homes, but to also go to the masjid to pray jamaaca with the Muslims behind the imam, and that this salat would be counted as a Sunnah prayer. From this hadith we once again understand the extent to which unity should be maintained. Here Rasuallah is instructing the companions to maintain the unity even though the leaders are not respecting the rulings of salat, one of the cornerstone foundations of Islam, because to delay the prayer does not take one of the fold of Islam, it is a sin though. Therefore akhi, how can you justify the separation of Somaliland when they are separating along the rhetoric of “the south cannot achieve peaceâ€. If you doubt this principle (that disunity is only allowed in the case of clear kufr), go and ask the people of knowledge. Ask them on what grounds are people allowed to disunite and is the breakup of an existing Muslim country justified because one part has stability whilst the other (even though they are Muslims) is unstable (because of warlords). In fact, why don’t you go ask Dr Saleh Saleh about this issue. BTW, do you even know why and when Somaliland declared their bid for independence? I believe in knowing the answer to this, you will realizes that even the argument of the south not achieving peace does not hold up, for they declared their independence way before that. 4. As for Somaliland not ruling by the shariyah, well surely no one in this board has studied the Shariyah in its true form, so I wouldn’t be so quick to speak about that which we have no knowledge of! Lest you should say about Allah that which you know not! There could be a situation that we lay muslims are not aware of! So to say they do not rule by the shariyah its a blank statement, because the person who is utter such statements must have complete knowledge of the shariyahs with all its conditions and rulings, this is why i said Rahima and others should not be so quick to say they dont rule by the shariyah unless they a have complete understand of the shariyah ! Brother, for one to understand that Somaliland does not rule by Shariica, one does not need to have complete understanding of the Shariica. Aside from the fact that scholars state this point, here I’ve given you two examples. Let me refresh your mind with one, the Shariica rejects the concept of opposition parties, Somaliland has opposition parties, if indeed it was a true Islamic state (i.e. adopts the shariica as it should be adopted, not just parts of it), the Shuura system which they have should suffice. Also, democracy is against the tenets of Islam, Somaliland adopts democracy. In fact if we go by the point made by one of the nomads here, the Somaliland constitution is contradictory in nature it seems. As said the Somaliland constititon states that any issue in contradiction to Islam will be rejected yet they accept democracy. I’m wondering how does that work? In conclusion, for this discussion brother, nowhere have I given you my opinion but rather have stated daleels from the Qur’an and hadith based on the understanding of the first three generations. It may be that you do not understand certain aspects about this, but do not assume that everyone is in the same. I’m not claiming I know all there is to know (for Allah knows I don’t), but I’ve given you these points and instead of arguing that we are not scholars why don’t you try and verify (or disprove) them with daleel? Also, it seems that often you look for more than that-i.e. daleel from Q &S along with the words of particular scholars(and please excuse me if I’m wrong); you do not need that this scholar said this and that scholar said that when there are clear proofs in the Qur’an and Sunnah. I don’t need a scholar to tell me that Riba is xaraam for Allah has already clearly highlighted that. Remember the words of Abdullah ibn Abbas, when he said in that hadith, you people (speaking to other saxaba) are saying that Cumar and Cuthman said.. and I say to you Rasuallah said. Allah and His prophet have established this point simply, on the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say: "That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know…†But like I said, if you doubt my main point here (as I hope I’ve proven with daleel), that disunity is never justified unless it can be established that on one party there is a case of clear kufr, then ask the scholars before you jump to the conclusions you are accusing others of. Jubair ibn Mut'im related that Rasulullah said: "Whoever calls others to sectarianism is not one of us. Whoever fights out of sectarianism is not one of us. Whoever dies for the cause of sectarianism is not one of us." (Abû Dâûd) Exactly that what I said. Stop running to religion to gain politics arguement!!.. Islam does not separate religion and politics. Shouldn’t you know that sister as a student of Islamic law? What you are claiming here is that we should argue politics separately and keep Islam out of it. This is the arguments which Socialism is based upon. Socialism is “The belief that religion and ecclesiastical affairs should not enter into the function of the state." Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (`ibadah) and legislation (Shari`ah), the acquiescence of secularism denotes the rejection of Shari`ah, a denunciation of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. Secularism is incompatible with Islam, for as as Merve Kavacki- an elected Turkish parliamentarian who was removed from office for the reason that she chose to wear a hijab (Islamic head covering) - stated “"Isn't the secularisation of Islam an oxymoron? For the religion cannot be separated from itself". However, for me it was Hassan Al-Banna founder of the Muslim Brotherhood that summed it up superbly when he said: “Brethren, you are not a benevolent organization, nor a political party, nor a local association with strictly limited aims. Rather you are a new spirit making its way into the heart of this nation and revivifying it through the Quran; …if some should ask you: To what end is you appeal made? Say: We are calling you to Islam, which was brought by Muhammad, government is part of it, and freedom is one of its religious duties. If someone should say to you: This is politics! Say: This is Islam and we do not recognize such divisions…†Much apologies folks for the overly long post .

Mashaallah!

if you seriously opposing somaliland at this precise moment on religion level then you are seriously deluding yourself which part of the muslim word are you trying to unit into one country If it was up to me, all of it. It’s a process which takes time and a step-by-step method. All I was saying is that we seem to be taking steps backward instead of going ahead. If you read my posts, i don't oppose Somaliland so what are you talking about? In fact i'm all for it, go ahead and let us deal with ourselves. Perhaps it would even be best if the rest of us no longer commented negatively on the issues of Somaliland and Somalilanders gave us the same courtesy in return. and do not go over the line and keep calling somaliland unislamic because you are crossing No need to be so heavy handed here, orders are not usually well received brother . The status of Somaliland like all other similar states in Muslim countries is evident. This is not my opinion. However if it was, it is an opinion which I do believe I would have a right to hold. No? As for being realistic, I’m not saying what is, rather what should be. Like Qudhac said, there are lots of un-Islamic things going on at the moment that need to be sorted before we start talking about Somaliland's As I realize but since this is the discussion at the moment we shall address it as such. Simply because other things are one way we cannot argue that this cannot be mentioned as it is. What I really want to ask is: do you think Somaliland will be Islamic if it joined the gathering in Mbagathi? That is the only option in front of us: Somaliland or Mbagathi/bust...? That’s just it. I think I’ve already mentioned this point. I’ve said my take on this in a reply to our brother salafi_online. A "Marwo" is more than welcome in the discussion So now sisters need an invite do they? What is this world coming to . In that case you guys must knock at the womens forum door and ask for permission to enter . That's only fair is it not?

Ayoub, We need to take steps foreword to achieve the khalifa not take a few back. At the end of the day, what it comes down to is that Islamically speaking it is not legitimate to keep breaking up that which was together. I feel that we as Muslims should be getting our act together collectively instead of claiming the rhetoric that everyone should fix up their own house first. Whilst this is true, looking at these forums, most (it would be unfair to say all) of the proponents of Somaliland are not interested in uniting with the rest of Somalia irrespective of what the situation is. Personally I believe that even if the rest of the country achieves peace and stability Somalilanders will still be anti-unification (generalizing of course). It is for this reason that your line of reasoning does not fit brother. Baashi and Xoogsade, Believe you me brothers I know I’m contradicting myself . I know what is the correct position however as I’ve said because of my lack of strength, or rather my overwhelming sense of pride that I cannot overlook, I just do not care. The way I see it is why should we care when we have been told point blank so many times that we are not wanted. Why go through such humiliation. It’s not like the rest of Somalia cannot survive without the North, therefore let’s move on and discuss issues which are pertinent to us. I don’t like the fact that it may be that my cousins (my father was born and raised in Boorama, but his reer abti are reer waqooyi) and I will be seen as coming from two different countries (if Somaliland is successful in their bid for independence), but what can I do? Not much, so let them be. Salafi_Online Brother with all due respect you are misunderstand the Islamic principles you are using. What is this lesser of the two evils you speak of? Do you actually think that those in the Somaliland government are any less evil (or any more pious) that those leaders of the rest of the country? I guarantee you that no Islamic scholar (the salafi scholars) supports the secession of Somaliland. Maybe you should check that out. Even if they do not speak about the Somali incident in particular, they do speak about already existing Muslim nations breaking up into smaller groups based on reasons like those of Somaliland. Waryaa, allright, considering she's a women, I'll let this one slide! My apologies to the woman This is an intellectual playing field, women don’t need special consideration . Give her respect as a person, that is well advised, but not because she is a woman . I don’t know what is happening to the brothers, in another post, Kowneyn said something to the extent of not turning the discussion into a “girlie discussionâ€. I was puzzled to say the least :confused: and thought, do you boys actually think of us as being intellectually challenged? Don't worry about me, i'm just ticked off at the male population at the moment

Alle-ubaahne I totally agree, but that doesn't make the imitation of western cultures sacred. Rahima, if you look at our religion, you can't find any verse or hadiith that commands men to attend the delivery of their wives. The wonderful thing about our religion brother is that it is not a rigid religion in the sense that everything is not to be considered xaraam if it is not specified that it is xalaal. The rule is that as I’ve said already, except for issues of worship all is xalaal unless specified as xaraam, therefore since it does not say in the Qur’an and Sunnah that it is xaraam for a man to be in the delivery room with his wife, then by process of elimination it is allowed/permissible. By His infinite wisdom Allah has specified for us all that we should avoid because the greater part of issues in life are allowed. Can you imagine ayahs in the Qur’an saying “Oh mankind We have made it permissible for you to eat, drink, sleep, blink, move your finger, type the letter ‘a’ etcâ€. Sure enough at times Allah specifies those things which He has made permissible for us, but not all things. There are issues which do not fall in the clear cut xaraam and xalaal categorization. These issues are called mubaax (permissible), such as eating and drinking. If done with the correct intention such as one will eat/drink and sleep to be able to better worship Allah, then it can become an act of cibaada. Therefore if a husband goes into the delivery room with his wife to say ease her pain by comforting her and he does this to please Allah (for a husband and wife receive ajar when they show kindness to one another for the sake of Allah), then it can become an act of cibaada for him. As for whose culture it is, I can’t say exactly but personally there is nothing wrong with adopting that which is good of other cultures. The PC that you are using right now was created by a non-Muslim, so is that necessarily a bad thing? No of course not, we accept that which is good and reject that which opposes Islam. Personally whilst I’m all for certain aspects of our culture, there are many others (especially those surrounding women’s issues) that need a transformation, that need to be up heaved and as far as I’m concerned the sooner the better. Each to their own though, but for me inshallah my husband will have to (I’ve had a change of heart) enter with me. He MUST appreciate the process and have some sort of understanding about the pain and suffering we go through. Inshallah it will make him more appreciative. Qac, Like i said each to their own, but let's not claim that it is unislamic. And anyway, ain't nothing wrong with the brother and I disagreeing . Just make sure that both you and Alle-ubaahne discuss this with your future spouse .

I also, with all due respect admin, think that this is a bad move. This is a Somali forum and users should accept this. There is no need to whine over that which is their own downfall and deficiency. If they have issues with the Somali language then why come on a Somali website? Why should there be alienation for nomads who wish to use our beautiful language. I too am not confident with writing in af-Somaali therefore I never write in it, however I enjoy reading their posts in the GENERAL FORUM amongst the posts of other users, simply because it is my language and wish to expand my knowledge on it. Therefore i say we incorporate our language into all forums instead of seperating it like as if it is a seperate part of our discussions.

But for the mere imitation of western culture, I think that is when am obliged to preserve my culture by all means. Brother why do you assume that it is imitating western culture. Could be a sign of kindness, love and devotion? That is a possibility do you not think . As for Somali culture, it is not the Qur’an brother , it can be wrong and we can adopt ways which are more beneficial. Not to mention I believe it is a privilege for a man to experience the whole thing with his wife, it might make him more appreciative and create in him a sense of more respect and love for his wife.

Have you read Somaliland's constitution? Please read the document before you dismiss it as unislamic. Brother Kowneyn, I don’t believe that I need to read the constitution; its application of it makes it pretty evident that it is unislamic (what does Islam say about opposition parties? Democracy?). I’m not saying that it does not contain elements which are in accordance with Islam, however since it contains elements which oppose Islam, then it is to be dismissed for the reason that you cannot pick and choose what to implement in Islam. You take it all, or leave claiming it as an Islamic system. I’m sure that any constitution drawn up by any Somali government will be unislamic, but this is not the point. The point is that since Somaliland is not separating on points based on Islam, its reasons and therefore secession become needless in the eyes of Islam. J11, Both parties need to heed what Islam teaches. This is the point I’m trying to make. May He exceed your knowledge. Aamiin and us all . Now though, now Islam is being brought into it No it is part of Islam. Politics is part and parcel of Islam, we as Muslims do not make this distinction, therefore since we cannot seem to agree upon other matters (considering that tribe seems to have become a passion for most Somalis), then at least we can reason upon the tenets of Islam since we all claim to be Muslims. Furthermore brother, discussions only become futile when the elements of understanding and respect are lost. Until then we can all learn from one another. Personally because of my weakness of Islam, I do not care if Somaliland gains independence, in fact for the sake of harmony I’m in support of it. But this is my weakness and as much as I would like to be against it for Islamic reasons and my overwhelming love for the unity of the Ummah above all other things, I lack this and acknowledge my downfall; however I will not justify it Islamically. It is one thing to do or believe something which is contrary to Islam but a totally different thing to legalize that which is prohibited (division not based on Islamic reasons).

HA: we are not all like you, we don't all run after a man because he will bring back the glory of your clan. Besides Cabdulahi Yusuf has many supporters that are not of his clan. Say what? You've gotta be kidding right?

We unite upon birr (righteousness) and taqwa (piety), they are the fabric of unity, So if Somaliland or others attain serenity by separation then so be it, if they feel they get closer to Allah by separating from the South, then so be it, if they feel its better for their religion to distinguish themselves from the south then so be it! Separation should solely be for the sake of safe guarding one’s religion and Unity should unequivocally be the same! Not because of race/language ect Whilst this is true, I believe both you and brother Kowneyn are missing a vital point. Could it be because you are both Somalilanders If it were that the people of Somaliland were all God-fearing Muslims and those from the south were kufaar, then your point would be legitimate. However, since this is not the case, the point in this case is not applicable and becomes somewhat redundant. We are speaking about two groups of Muslims who when it comes to Islam are basically the same, both sin and both do good. Let us be honest, it is not like fighting does not occur in Somaliland, however we can say that it is less than the south, which can be attributed to many factors. However, I guarantee you; it has nothing to do with the point that Somalilanders have more taqwa than the rest. The south also has people who fear Allah and who wish for peace. Islam teaches that a Muslim is to correct his brother in an effort to maintain the unity. Rasuallah even instructed that the Muslim helps his brother if he is oppressed or even if he is the oppressor by advising and apprehending him. In this we learn an important point, as Muslims we unite on all the points which are correct however we correct one another on those which aren’t. Moreover, let us look at Somaliland; do you seriously believe that the Somaliland government and its system of administration is based on Islam? I think not! It is based on the ideals of democracy (which we all acknowledge are against Islam), therefore, how can you justify its secession and furthermore argue the point that they have separated on the notions of taqwa and birr. This is ridiculous; any person with any understanding of the kalima can see that this is not the case. If on the other hand you are to reason that Somalia is also in the same boat (which would be correct), then does it not become the responsibility of those who understand Islam to apply Islam in their politics by maintaining the unity and establishing an Islamic system of government. To build a house akhi, you need to start from the bottom. Somalilanders are not completely innocent of the state our land is in. Everyone including Somalilanders have played a part in the agony of our nation, so let’s not use the innocent card when all are guilty. We all suffered and we all oppressed, so let’s be fair. Just a small point though brother Salafi, You seem to be dead against certain shuyuukh in Saudi Arabia who wish to make an Islamic difference in their homeland, yet you are a fervent supporter of Somaliland. How can that be? This is contradictory. You paint the Saudi situation with one stroke and the Somali situation with another. Please explain, may be I’m missing something here :confused: .

Probably in. As for the Islamic stance on this, the general rule is that except for issues of cibaada, all is xalaal unless specified otherwise. Therefore, as far as I’m aware it is allowed for a husband to be their with his wife during birth. I mean was he not there when the baby was being made? As for any cawra issues, a husband and wife do not have to cover from each other at all, so that becomes irrelevant.