I, Rahima, PROMISE TO ACCEPT WHOEVER IS ELECTED ON SUNDAY 10/10/2004. Inshallah we shall achieve peace and prosperity.

Brother Salafi, whilst I thank-you immensely for the time you have taken out to explain the stance of the scholars on Usama to me (which i was well aware of ), I was not disagreeing with it at all, just making a fundamental point. As far as I am concerned there is not enough proof to vilify Usama (on the crimes of terrorism-assuming we know what they are) and for that reason my loyalty is with him, be he a takfiri or an innovator (not that I am belittling these sins) makes not much difference in this point. As far as I am aware, Usama has not been declared a kafir, and the choice is Usama vs the kuffaar (that is a clear cut situation). There was no reason for all of this, I don’t believe anyone was discussing the Islam of Usama (apart from yourself), but nonetheless, jzk. NO Sister, The Noble Dr Saleh As-saleh agrees with my stands On Osama; The stance I was speaking about was on the credentials on Shaykh Ibn Baz, not on Usama. Hope that’s clearer . Nonetheless, allow me to summaries this before we go on to a five set match , Usama with all his flaws and sins deserves our loyalty as Muslims for he is a Muslim, we both agree that the scholars are not infallible (so to say that for example Shaykh Ibn Baz made a mistake in the fatwa for the first gulf-war does not mean I am disrespecting or questioning the Islam of the scholar) and we shall never agree upon SPUBS (I’m not into the habit of discussing what this and that Muslim is if I have not even mastered the basics of Islam myself- I have greater issue of matter). If it is for major issues, then yes we generally need to warn the Muslims (assuming that the speaker is continuously lecturing on a point of deviation), but alas I have not seen that with such groups. They form this small group where all must agree on almost every point (to not do means to incur a ban). To say for example that the Saudi Royal family needs to be overthrown (constitutes a deviation for them) or to speak well of Shaykh Safar and Shaykh Salman is a big NO NO. According to SPUBS, I am in the wrong for praising these two shuyuukh and if I were to do so in public (assuming I was a speaker who did so at a lecture), I would be shunned and my name tarnished in their forums. Let me give you another example of a scholar that might fall into the camp that this article criticises. Dr Yusuf Al Qaradawi came to the UK recently at the invitation of the Mayor of London. For this particular incident, it is not what the article speaks of. To go to the land of the kuffaar for dacwa even at the invitation of the enemies of Islam is in accordance with the teaching of the Qur’an and Hadith. The article is not speaking of such issues as the recent trip of shaykh Qaradawi, rather it highlights Muslims who make joy trips at the invite of the enemies of Islam while ignoring the plight of the Muslims and the suffering which they (the enemies) cause them (Muslims). During the invasion of Afghanistan, certain Muslim speakers in the US (at the invitation of the white house) were giving advice to the US government with respect to the ways to deal with Muslims and tackle Muslim hostility- I do believe that the article was speaking of such matters and not the dacwa expedition of Shaykh Qaradawi .

Allah, another kiwi :eek: . This kiwi invasion has gotten out of hand. Every second person here is originally from kiwiland (half of my friends are), I can understand why though. There isn’t exactly much you can do with grass and sheep (loool, we in OZ use that on all the kiwis, namely the guys). But dare i say it, i like Somali kiwis, anything to increase the Somali population As for the election, walaahi I dread the old bat coming back. Latham is better for the Somalis, Muslims, and Students which I am all of.

^ So, you don't support the money collection (like i said, i was sure i misunderstood, the post just wasn't very clear), but you maintain that these two men are terrorists nonetheless? So how are the qaad plantations of Perth - i hear that the Somalis over there are very fond of sneaking into the backyards of their neighbours for a helping- at least that's what they say in Melbourne and Sydney

What ever happens lets support the new government. Exactly! The TNG failed because of this fundamental point. Trust me, a government is not going to make things better on their own, they require the support of the populace to make changes.

Sister what are you talking about?!? The point that apparanetly Usama is guilty of all that he is accused of. If I committed a crime today, got busted and then attributed it to you, is it correct then for Baashi to assume that you are automatically guilty? People make claims and so far I have not seen any clear proofs that Usama is guilty of the crimes he is accused of. I give my fellow brother (with all his flaws, God only knows that our flaws are far worse) the benefit of the doubt. He has not admitted to them and there is no proof of it than heresay. did u even take the time to read what Bin baaz actually had to say about OSama? im not sure if you can read Arabic, but in that portion its not just bin baaz who speaks out, its many scholars all upon the same train of thought, I read that a few years back brother and I am well and clear about the position of the scholars on Usama, but I am also well and aware they have not declared him a kafir and therefore is a Muslim, for me in this war which seemingly is between Usama vs. the west, I know where my loyalties lie-this was my point and on that I agreed with the author. The Prophet (salAllaahu `alayhe wa sallam) said: “A Muslim is the brother of a (another) Muslim; he does not oppress him and nor does he hand him over (to the enemy).†And his (salAllaahu `alayhe wa sallam) saying: “Assist your (Muslim) brother if he is the oppressor or the oppressed.†It was asked: "O Messenger of Allaah: (we understand about) assisting him when he is oppressed, so how do we assist him when he is the oppressor?" He (salAllaahu `alayhe wa sallam) said: “Restrain him from oppressing (anyone), for that is assisting your (Muslim) brother.†I disagreed with scholars who opposed Usama’s war on the west for the reasoning that he can not command a defensive jihad because of the absence of a khalif-this is absurd. Regardless of the existence of a khalifa, we are to defend ourselves and Usama at the very least has this right. As for the “gulf-war ploy†brother I was only highlighting one small point (don't over analyse the whole thing), the scholars can make a mistake, it is for this reason that Rasuallah stated that if they are correct they receive two rewards and if they err they receive one. It’s almost like you think the scholars are infallible, do you even acknowledge that they can be wrong? As a salafi, I’m sure you acknowledge that Abu Hanifa made mistakes with respect to some fiqh issues (which we attribute to many reasons), so why not the scholars of our lifetime? Please brother, don’t try and get us into a debate concerning the validity of scholars, I am not questioning that whatsoever, so need to put on the white in shinning armour act . As stated I love them all, I respect them all and most importantly never would I say they stated anything out of malice for Islam or Muslims, rather I justify some points that they have erred on because of their love for peace and to avoid disaster to the followers of the religion of Allah. Ibn Baz generally supported his government on such issues, just like cuthaymian and a few others. Let us get one thing clear; I am not saying that they supported their government in acts of kufr, no subxanallah of course not. But many a times, like the gulf-war issue, they backed the government (which allow me to remind you, you agree upon also). I take a stance where I think the best of the situation and therefore believe wholeheartedly that they felt they were diverting a greater problem. Supporting ones government akhi is not necessarily an evil thing, you seem to have me confused with the rat bags who believe shaykh ibn baz sold out ($$ literally) his religion and the Muslims. I don’t take this stance and I am pretty sure you and I probably love him the same and I do not disagree with any of what Nur said (trust me, he knows that also ). I am not questioning the credentials of these scholars, nor am I attacking them; I’m just saying that they can make a mistake-which is what Islam teaches, No? So please, let us not resort to insults, because I am insulted that you could even suggest that I have said anything wrong against one of the greatest scholars of our lifetime, Shaykh ibn Baz (Raximuallah). Really brother, all discussions aside, i did not appreciate that. Not to mention Dr Saleh Saleh would agree with my positions! You stance on ibn Baz? I disagreed where? For me to say that any scholar has made a mistake on any issue does not necessarily translate to loss of respect or the questioning of his credentials. You can still say that you disagree with someone and still hold them in high regard and love them for the sake of Allah. Learn to differentiate that akhi-it comes in very hand in the mannerisms of disagreement. As for SPUBS, they seem to be a tad confused on that concept. I was also once upon a time an avid reader, until I began to realize that they made me have ill feelings towards my fellow brother based on simple matters. As far as I know, they are located in the west; we are not in a land of scholars where we can concentrate on refutations. Here akhi, people hardly know the kalima, so of what benefit is it to label this person and that person a qutubi or khawaarij (do you know that bad nicknames are xaraam? saying that hebal hebal al-khaariji). It’s one thing to advice your brother on certain mistakes that they make, but a totally different thing to tarnish (mind you so harshly) their name. Like I said, there are bigger issues to tackle. That is my opinion of not just SPUBS, but a few others. Anyway, let’s not turn this into a tennis match, the bottom line is I respect and love all the scholars, but I acknowledge that they can make mistakes and disagree with another. Usama is a Muslim and with all his flaws deserves my loyalty more than Bush and Blair, and Spubs should be concentrating on far more important subjects than discrediting fellow Muslims.

Couldn’t he have chosen a Muslim to want to emulate? We’ve had many a great leaders.

^ excuse me for my ignorance and lack of understanding brother, but are these two men terrorists? If you consider them to be as such, then how come you support money being collected for their cause? I’m absolutely sure it is a misunderstanding on my part , but please explain it to me.

Brother, I don’t think I made any unjustified comments against any scholar. If you speak about the fatwa made by Shaykh Ibn Baz with respect to the first gulf-war, that is a fact (I just assumed most were aware of the fatwa). I was addressing salafi-online on the issue for I assume he will know what I am referring to. As for the article, the author did not attack any scholar’s brother; he made generalized comments against the Muslims- at least that is how I perceived the piece. Anyway we all look at issues from different perspectives; some would believe it is a good read that hit home, others not so good. As for the Usama comments, it was with respect to the post made by brother Salafi_online concerning the remark of Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Hadi al-Madkhali.

depends on how big and strong your big brother is. If I can take him, than you'll just going to have to get used with my mocking. Take him? :eek: I think not, and anyway if I sense him loosing, I’ve got hands (do you have hair for me to pull on? ). I’m not very good with being mocked, I just might have to grow my nails, braid my hair and put some Vaseline on my face, to make sure it doesn’t happen . Rokko, My dear fellow Melbournian, how are you ? So will you be voting on Saturday, have you registered? I can’t wait to vote, I want Howard gone :mad: (although I have this sick feeling he isn’t going anywhere). That hurted What? The spank from OG-Girl ? The question is have you learnt or are you still in need of more?

I just wanted to know what you meant by 'to hell with them', you're the one who brought up the comparison with Somaliland. What I meant by to “hell with them†is that as far as the suffering of the innocent is concerned none of them should be of our preoccupation. Also, I brought up the Somaliland comparison so as to highlight that whilst it is unfortunate that our leaders are corrupt , it’s not like the Somaliland leaders are much better . There all basically the same, with only one twist, Somaliland like I said has less groups to reconcile . Just because I don't agree with everything going on in Kenya, it does'nt mean I want no peace in Somalia, does it?. I welcome your (and other's) opinions regarding Somaliland even if I don't necessarily agree with them and I suggest you guys do the same. That’s fine and dandy, but a comment like Are'nt some these people the MP's of 'parliament' which you all support? Is very confusing :confused: . You guys support your leaders although I can say with absolute certainty not all of them have clean hands or are free of corruption. I just couldn’t understand the need for that comments. It’s like me blaming you for something when I’m guilty of the exact same thing. It just seemed like a case of double standards, one set for us and one set for Somaliland. Xarago, Sister, we are fine with our situation and we make duca to Allah to make the best of it for us. That is the bottom line; it is us and our opinions which matter . Constructive criticism and hopeful suggestions are welcome, anything outside of that leads to ill feelings which isn’t productive for either side. Baashi, At times walaahi I just think I’m an extreme idealist. I’m just so sick and tired of living in a land which is not mine. I want to go home so desperately, which is probably why I hold to any glimpse of hope. Twenty-one and I have not returned home since I was the age of six- I’m sure you can see my desperation to return .

OG-Girl, JZK for the quote sister. Islam teaches that we give our fellow brethren in faith the benefit of the doubt (even if they have countless faults).

Firstly, this is not a discussion on the credentials of Usamah. Sure he has shortcomings and sure scholars have spoken up against him with respect to certain things, but the issue still remains, we cannot hand out our brother (which he is, unless of course any of us are branding him a kafir) a guilty verdict because certain governments have dictated it to serve their purposes. The point still is, you do not require the command of a khalif to wage a defensive jihad (which certain Muslims seem to disagree with Usaama on)- which is the point the article was making with respect to Usama. Like I said, it all depends on the scholar you quote. Pro-Saudi royal family scholars are very harsh on Usama, whilst the anti-Saudi royal family Salafi scholars are more understanding (although they criticize him also). He resorted to attacking scholars and institutions without saying who he is and what he represents. I don’t see what difference it makes, his points are more than legitimate. Although I have not read the full fatwa myself, according to every article (authored by Muslims and non-Muslims alike) the shaykh ordered that Muslim girls to adhere to the new law, the French ban on the xijaab. It seems like a unanimous issue to me and deserved to be rebuked, in the full sense of the word. Secondly, Islam does not prohibit us from questioning the stance of the scholars-only Allah and his blessed prophet are beyond such questioning. I don’t see why there would be any pre-occupation on what this man stands for, the bottom line is that without overanalyzing the piece, he is pretty much right- or is their a disagreement on that? Had he made mention of particular scholars, it would only have turned things ugly. This is a method which was employed by the prophet anyway, to speak generally to get a point across (unless you tell the person directly). Salafi, On the piece supposedly stated by Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Hadi al-Madkhali, you may of have noticed brother that certain people were making claims against Usama, not that he said those things himself. Sure enough, the scholars have reprimanded him on certain issues, (they themselves disagree with one another on issues), but it does not mean that what was said is factual. Also, Shaykh ibn Baz (Rahimuallah) was pro-Saudi Royal family (or am I wrong?). Shaykh Ibn Baz issued the fatwa to allow the American troops to station themselves in the Arabian Peninsula although that is against Islam (Shaykh Al-Bani was extremely opposed to that). I am sure that Ibn Baz did all of this for he believed it was for the greater good, as a scholar of Islam there is no other explanation-but at the end of the day when it comes to politics we need to keep this in mind. I don’t want to get into this really, for I love all the shuyuukh, but some have erred on certain matters and we must keep this in mind instead of taking on board every last thing which they said like it is the Qur’an. And more importantly, with all his faults, who knows, the actions of Usama may be accepted by Allah. We do not need to demonize him. Even the scholars who oppose “suicide†bombings make duca that those who have done so have their action accepted by Allah and hope that they are regarded as shuhadaa’. With all due respect, spubs are overly preoccupied with labelling every Muslim under the sun a deviant. Even with the Salafi manhaj, they sub-divide those who inshallah adhere to it. We have bigger issues!

Nationalist, You're not doing my sanity any good . Stop picking on me before i call my big brother

OG-Girl- I sometimes work night shifts. Kynda has the pleasure of sleeping in her comfortable bed (which I’m sure she has moved once again). I don't get sleep till 7 a.m. Shift work is hard, but boy is it good money , not to mention i can surf the net and get some assignments done. Libraries are good places to sleep actually , a quick snooze is refreshing. Find one of the carrels in the back and take a 15-min power nap. Nationalist, Yes, paranoia is my middle name . In that case, all is good and well my brother:)

Nationalist, are you mocking me ? Or am i suffering from paranoia :confused: ?

^If i took the line of hardliners, I’d probably tell them if they didn't seek forgiveness and end this vile lifestyle, then be joining their comrades (qawmu-luut) in jahanam . But in all honesty, I probably wouldn’t even say anything for some time. It would take a lot of time for me to get over the shock of seeing a Somali faggot/dyke :eek: .

You can't be anti-sematic if you are a Muslim, for the simple reason that Rasuallah being an Arab is technically a semite (as is defined). I'm sure there are one or two jews (by religion) who do not support the Zionist occupation of Palestine, but we were speaking in general terms.

Brother, it is for that reason that we hope and make duca to Allah that this new government will mean a new beginning for us. Step-step we shall head in the right direction, but we can only take one step at a time. Ayoub, I respect you walaahi, but as I sit here and read the replies of some Somalilanders I am starting to get the feeling that they actually want this attempt at peace to fail. I mean it’s almost like they want us southerners to continue on this road of disagreement. Maybe I am naïve, but I believe in wishing that which is best for your brother instead of criticizing day and night their efforts. And you can’t compare Somaliland with the rest of the country. We have the difficult task of trying to reconcile so many various groups-you guys have far less, if you know what I mean .

^ Alxamdullilah, Gaalkacyo is not alone in the fight for the eradication of FGM. The revolution is creating sparks all across the Horn. Soon inshallah it will be history.

NGONGE, The only personalized rebukes he made were against Ali Abd Ar-Raaziq and Sheikh Tantawi, both of which I’m sure you will agree are justifiable. I actually prefer that he spoke in general terms rather than going into which scholar said what and working from there- it gives the piece more of an impact and credibility. Also, the article is aimed at Muslims in general, not just scholars. Nothing wrong with highlighting our shortcomings, we need to wake up and realize that we have to stop being so apologetic-this is his basic message.

^ Yes, we accept them but never would i say any are completely innocent. Some better than others, some atrocious, but for the sake of peace we accept their existence on the political arena. Like i said i prefer corrupt leaders than anarchy. The same applies for Somaliland brother , yet you support that government do you not?

Rahima, This guy is not Otali but he is worse... Worse? It gets better does it? Didn't think it was possible, but alas i remain corrected once more . I admit he was good student but he split from my idiology seems others affected him more than I do. All you can do is try your best . Keep going, who knows, he might come around after a few spankings .

JB, Get a grip would you. Even if we assume that the JVA were defending Kismaayo against the attack of Morgan, how did Dhoobley come into the equation? Also, even if we lay the least amount of blame on the JVA here, they still remain wrong in that what was committed in Dhoobley was plain wrong, even if they were harboring Morgan. They knew that innocent people (more than likely the majority of the inhabitants of the place) would be in the middle, yet they still chose to pursue him. They would of have been more credible in this situation, had they decided against the committing of this atrocity, turned around and went back to where they came from. They became guilty in this situation when they made this grave mistake.

PS: We aint responsible what Hitler and Nazis did to them. Is not our fault. So true walaahi. I wish they'd just stop crying about it. The world has already expressed that it was regrettable that it happened, but it's over. There looking for sympathy because without it the world might begin to see them for the opportunists (at the cost of the innocent) that they are.