Nur, Another blessed ramadaan. Hope you are in the best of health and imaan brother . As for the points you’ve made, you do us the honour (as our resident shaykh, in knowledge not age ) of answering them. Personally, I’m confused about the state of the Muslims, the problem is so large and saddening that if the solution was left in my hands I wouldn’t even know where to begin. At this point in the history of the Muslims, I’m not sure whether or not the complete application of the shariica would be viable, considering many of us are missing the basics. My only reasoning is Rasuallah spent all his time in makka perfecting the understanding of the kalima, then went on to found an Islamic state. I can only but dread the amount of time we would require. Nevertheless, you enlighten us akhi . Brother Salafi, I came across this piece whilst researching for an elective subject at uni. The author (who I do not know) seems to be taking the views of deviant groups at times (May Allah forgive me if I’m wrong), but I posted this as a discussion, not something to be taken as factual. We could always discuss the points which are in accordance with Islam and those which are not. I just thought it would give us a basis to discuss the main points of an Islamic state, the khalifa, the ruling system, the state system etc. As for the Cali comment, alaahu aclum. I have never heard of it before and do not know if there is truth to it or it is a lie. However, he did go on to try and explain the reasons for it. Nevertheless, it is a piece open for discussion.

So brother, why do you want for Somalia to remain in anarchy and for this to fail? Don't you understand that this is not about CY, but rather the peace of your country?

So sister, why do you want for Somalia to remain in anarchy and for this to fail? Don't you understand that this is not about CY, but rather the peace of your country?

im sure one of these days you will be true to your words and start quoting them! I speak of Abu bakr, you negate his point and come with the views of people who came after him (not that I disagree with what they say, but rather your understanding of the point). Maybe one of these days the points of the sahaba shall be enough for you . What do u mean? If a ruler has the power to commit massacre and steal, the only way to depose is through combat! Who was talking about combat being the only form? Anyway, whilst I thank-you for all those points and fatwas, brother the point was simple. I asked you whether or not the Muslims (namely those in authority and power) are allowed to depose a leader who is Muslim but commits acts of Kufr and sin if there is no fear of a greater fitnah. Furthermore, I tried to highlight the speech of Abu bakr as some sort of proof, which you dismissed as being against Islamic teachings. In the end, your answer was a clear no. Basically you state that unless there is clear kufr which takes one out of the fold of Islam, the Muslims can never depose their leader even if there is no fear of a greater fitnah. Allow me to quote you just to refresh your memory akhi: to make a long story short ,†yes†they have to be disbelievers for one to depose them! Everything you mentioned would be classed as sins which do not lead to disbelieve (kufr)! I suppose you’d agree, Or else you would not have asked the question Now, I ask you to read the following fatwa of Shaykh ibn Baz and comment. Please, for the sake of Allah don’t dismiss it as not being in accordance with Islam like you did with the statement of Abu bakr. Question : There are people who think that because some of the rulers commit acts of kufr and sin, we are obliged to rebel against them and attempt to change things even if that results in harming the Muslims in that country, at a time when there are many problems in the Muslim world. What is your opinion? Answer : Praise be to Allaah. The basic comprehensive principle of sharee’ah is that it is not permitted to remove an evil by means of a greater evil; evil must be warded off by that which will remove it or reduce it. Warding off evil by means of a greater evil is not permitted according to the scholarly consensus (ijmaa’) of the Muslims. If this group which wants to get rid of this ruler who is openly committing kufr is able to do so, and can bring in a good and righteous leader without that leading to greater trouble for the Muslims or a greater evil than the evil of this ruler, then that is OK. But if rebellion would result in greater trouble and lead to chaos, oppression and the assassination of people who do not deserve to be assassinated, and other forms of major evil, then that is not permitted. Rather it is essential to be patient and to hear and obey in matters of good, and to offer sincere advice to the authorities, and to pray that they may be guided to good, and to strive to reduce evil and increase good. This is the correct way which should be followed, because that is in the general interests of the Muslims, and because it will reduce evil and increase good, and because this will keep the peace and protect the Muslims from a greater evil. Majmoo’ Fataawa wa Maqaalaat Mutanawwi’ah li Samaahat al-Shaykh al-‘Allaamah ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him), vol. 8, p. 202 ( www.islam-qa.com ) PLUS WHERE WERE YOU WHEN OSAMA WAS BED BUDDIES WITH THE USA ADM! Osama, unlike the royal family was not fighting against fellow Muslims. I find this amusing though, the Saudi scholars (may Allah bless them), denounced the actions of the northern alliance (rightly so) for aiding the kuffaar (USA) against fellow Muslims, yet when there government did the same (aided the kufaar, again the USA against Muslims, the people of Iraq) they did not speak out. I have to say, very confusing, nevertheless it has to be for reasons of avoiding a great fitnah (regardless of what you may believe or think, i will not get into the bashing of scholars even if i disagree with their view point). I can only but imagine if they spoke out against the regime, a revolt at this time would only be beneficial to the enemies of Islam. Moroever, the royal family is only praised by the saudi scholars, you will not find any other salafi scholar outside of SA doing that. We admit that they do many good things for Islam, but they also harm Islam. I do not understand why we keep going over the condition and affairs of the royal family (it’s really really tedious)! I was positive you took from the scholar, the people with knowledge! Didn’t I not illustrated their position! Do u know something they dont? I’m not sure whether or not we are speaking the same language here akhi, you seem to be missing the point. Islam allows for the overthrow of a leader (the decision being made by the influential people of authority and power) so long as there is no greater fitnah that will come of it. You disagree with this point which is based on the teachings of our prophet s.c.w. I don’t know if its lack of knowledge on your behalf (in that you’ve never heard this before) or you sincerely believe we have to always put up with any leader even if they wipe out every single believer (because technically killing does not take one out of the fold of Islam). What is tedious is that you are praising (it would be one thing if you kept silent on the matter), leaders who are tyrants. If the point above (namely the fatwa of sh. ibn baz, which i know you hold in high regard) is not sufficient for you brother, then i leave it at that. To be honest, i don't have the time to research and argue on matters which are clear cut. I have uni, exams, work, cibaada and not to mention afur to cook everyday .

I used to believe in testing one another, but once in the situation i believe it becomes extremely hard. Like QQ, I’d probably only marry someone who i know and am confident about their escapades (lack thereof inshallah). If i have any doubts, then I’d leave it- I wouldn’t waste my time with an individual who I don’t have confidence in. This is a risk, but we take great risks in everyday life yet we still live and function in life. I personally could never bring myself to bring up such an issue.

No offence taken sister - couldn’t agree more with you. I don’t consider myself and am very confident in myself that qabiil is of little value in my life and does not hinge on my views (although at times I do worry it may seem as such). Often I too think some individuals thrive on being objected to, but propaganda irritates me somewhat (irrespective of which quarter regurgitates it). Maybe i should adopt the strategy of Xoogsade and let it be at whatever time our people enter the medium of debate about political opinions, they dispute and support their tribe/regions rather then looking at the whole picture. Gotta disagree, I can name a few nomads (from all regions) who I believe remain objective in their discussions. We shouldn’t brush everyone who participates with the same brush. Personally, I feel that the majority of the posters are after the good of all Somalis, only a few are in it for their own biased views. But then again this is my opinion. Plenty of news comes from Somalia above all from www.bbc.com. Sure enough, but they will not report about the progression of my country and not to mention their reports on Somalia and Somalis is a rarity. Everyone has a right to their own opinions I do believe, and personally one thing I like about this forum is the chance to read varying views and developments all across the country. Non-Somali websites rarely report such issues and other Somali websites are in Somali (which like I said takes me a long time to read and sifting through articles I don’t give a rats-*** about). Nonetheless, it is an opinion, and thank-you for your words (there is no need to get angry over that which is true). Rather a Muslim should be grateful when advised- at least that’s how I see it.

NGONGE and other interested nomads, check out the following website (a download) concerning the central themes and administration of an Islamic system of government. I have to be honest, i have not read it all (it's extremely long), but have taken a quick glance and seems very informative with daleels. islamic-world.net/islamic-state/Islamic-state.doc

This is an act of kufr! But this does not necessarily mean the person who is doing this kufr is a kafir! Prior to ousting the one in authority, you must apply the conditions of takfir! And once they are labelled a kafir by the people of knowledge, deposing them would become permissible! (as long as the good outweighs the evil of course!) So allow me to clarify, are you saying that unless complete kufr is established (that takes one out of the fold of Islam) the leader of Muslims must not be deposed? Are you saying that regardless of what the leader of Muslims does (be it commit massacres or steal the wealth of the Muslims) he needs to be kept in place even if there is no fear of a greater fitna if he is deposed? If so, what is your daleel? Furthermore are you saying that the Saudi government has not aided the kuffaar against their fellow Muslims- mind you aiding can be in many forms. Also, what do you make of the acceptance speech of Abu bakr when he was chosen as the prophet’s successor? Finally, is it appropriate that we go to seek the opinion of a scholar regarding for example the mechanics of an automobile or rather an engineer? We can ask the scholar for example what is the islamic ruling regarding a leader who aids the non-Muslims, but it it appropriate we ask him whether or not that leader is in fact aiding the non-Muslims. It is not clear from recent world events the stance of the royal family? Even to use the aid of the kuffar to find Usama, does this not constitute as using the help of the non-Muslims against a fellow Muslims (considering we have established that irrespective of his sins he is still a Muslim)? Please excuse me for my many questions, just trying to work out where you stand on the issue. JZK and ramadaan kariim.

Interesting

Nice.

Rahima ... i take that as a disoriented Rahima going " JB .. Whauut? " Yes you were quiet right . Sometimes things just escape me. My Question to you and HA for that matter IS What is this U turn is all about? is it really as you put it earlier? The colonel or disaster? would you mind eloberating on this ? nailing the logic in it in my otherwise retarded mind. Basically yes, at this point (at least in my view), it seems like we either accept the colonel with all his flaws and crimes of the past or get ready for a new round of disaster. Like I’ve already said, so far Cabdiqaasim has proven to be the better man in this equation. He is supporting the new president and government, whereas CY was not willing to give the same consideration to him when he was elected president at Arta. This is the stance we should all take. If some reject CY, then I guarantee you that his supporters will reject anyone who you would want for the position . You see where this is going? Somalis will never agree upon anyone (the ills of tribalism), so we might as well recover from the pits of disaster rather than digging deeper. Someone has to concede for the good of Somalia. This is not necessarily the lower of the two stations, rather in my view the higher. Anyone who is willing to put aside their personal views of CY for the good of the nation has my full support- most Somalis are now in this group (considering very few suppot the president because it is CY). They are tired brother; they accept the colonel because they’ve had enough. The question IS (was) Is he a sel out regarding NFD and OG*DENIA ? The answer is, so far we do not know for sure (neither do you), but we assume (so as to have the popular support) and pray that he will not be a sell out. U-turn :confused: ? No u-turn brother , I held these views way before any leader was elected. As for the rest, HA summed it up pretty nicely. Exactly, but you also need reminding not to cout your chickens untill they hatch, after all it is 'wax ay dad isku dhobdhobeen' It’s called optimism with a dash of desperation . I don’t know about you but I am so sick and tired of living in a country which is not mine, I’m willing to do just about anything (aside from compromise my religion) to have the chance to reside in Somalia and contribute my little bit to its rebuilding. I remember the previous accusations leveled at you and now if you're accused of supporting CY, then I guess you're doing the right thing Let’s hope so. Walaahi I actually laughed out loud (never done before), till now it still amuses me. Now I believe I have received the honour of every factional accusation , except for may be just one (only because I have yet to be given the chance ).

And the idea that the 275 MP’s are all warlords is absolute nonsense, the MP’s represent all strands of Somali society and that includes the Warlords. Whilst i agree, it just proves one point- how sad we are as a people.

Nugaali, That is uncalled for, especially in this holy month. I see no difference in the hate that you display for a certain 'group', and that of Otali. And if you are under the illusion that only one clan commited those crimes, then you are the naive one. We all share a collective guilt for what has happened to our nation and people, but it is time to put that behind us. As the president stated, it is time to forgive one another for the past and work towards a better future; a peaceful, united, and prosperous Somalia. SNW, Brother, your candidate has won. There is no need to rub it in the face of others(which is how it is being perceived). Be humble and gracious and pray that this government is inclusive of all groups and will be able to reconcile and reunite our nation. Ramadan Kariim. Very nicely said.

Sullen Sue, JZK sister . May Allah save us all from such pride. Silence, There is no harm in being informed about the future of your homeland and wishing for it that which is best. Islam does not prohibit it, but the issues you have highlighted become relevant when one take sides based on that which our sister has reminded us all of. Also, don’t assume that all the nomads are of an “infantile†age . Once upon a time I too was shocked at how well versed they were on such issues, and then soon came to realize some were in high school or close to it when the civil war broke out - therefore it is only understandable that they follow such issues passionately. No? Not to mention they teach some of us one or two things of relevance as a Somali. This section gets to me at times, but it allows me to follow the affairs of Somalia to the degree I prefer . It provides me with relevant chunks of information (thank-fully mostly in English, Somali just takes so long to read, I know, I hang my head in shame ) and allows me to see the differing views of Somalis. Going to other websites means sitting there for a couple of hours, exhausting through the Somali, reading things I couldn’t care any less about and receiving a biased view. Why would I do that, when I can get it all here on SOL

^ Aamiin. May Allah forgive him and us all.

^ No sister, not too long. JZK for the charter. Overall, the points are ideal, except for the democracy component.

This is just embarrassing. I almost feel sorry for the guy (almost).

SisSade I was referring to the Turks which reside in Australia, but then again they always begin fast with their home country. This is always our problem in Melbourne, the Somalis and Arabs usually fast on the same day, the Turks though, always (as long as i can remember) on a different day. It’s sad how we can never agree on a particular method of beginning fast. It kills the spirit a tad.

You're acting like Somalis started to become civilised people after 1960. To know ones exact date of birth does not necessarily equate to one being civilized. To believe such a thing is shameful . I did not put such a stipulation on our people; rather i stated that which is the case.

Ooooh, I talked to her first day of ramadan and she was ok. I will call the family, Insha Allah she will be ok soon. Inshallah. I just hope it’s not something serious. If you visit her tell her my salams please Will do inshallah. If i get the chance i shall go and see her today. Ilaahay ha caafiyo the nomad. Aamiin. Nationalist, Brother, if you recall you accused me of being an anti-puntlander just a while ago. That was a serious accusation also, was it not? Basically what you said was that I hate my own brother, uncle, aunt, grandmother, grandfather, cousin etc Do you remember my reception to that? You did not see me huffing and puffing out of anger.

Why is it a chance now and never before Rahima? And this is a question for Rahima not for the fanatic supporters of Colonel Yeey, ok. How do you come to such conclussions Rahima? Or you endorsing the fact that it is only Coloneel yeey who can do something for Somalia while the rest are incapable? Could it not be possible that there are those who could oppose his presidency same wa as he opposed the outcome of Arta? Never did I say brother that we did not have a chance before this. We had the same chance at Arta, but unfortunately due to the greed of certain groups and warlords, that government was unable to achieve their goals. All I’m saying brother is that, this is another chance. I would of have said this irrespective of who was chosen leader. I’m sure that it is not secret that I am not very fond of CY (that’s probably the understatement of the decade), but nonetheless, there are bigger issues at hand, namely the peace of my country and considering that we have no choice, we must accept or continue down the same hell bent road. Can you imagine what would happen if the majority refused the leadership of CY? We would be at point one once again, and even worse still I fear another bloody civil war would break out. Trust me, CY will not give up without a fight nor will his enemies. They’ll just keep going around and around in circles until they kill off every innocent person. I have to say, of all these people though, I am most impressed by Cabdiqaasim. He has put aside his personal interests for the sake of the nation. please sis spare us this cheap patronising of the Colonel and his supporters. Above anything we know he was never 'decent God fearing individual', but now since being elected we hope he has changed colours. LOOL. I find this amusing, I’m being accused of supporting CY (can you believe this HA? ). What a day , never did I think I would come across this- but it is a misunderstanding. Brother, I did not say that he was decent and god-fearing, rather I expressed that it is not for this reason that he would not hand over his brothers to the gaalo- his track record is a testimony to this. Personally, I believe that doing so would mean the failure of his presidency (this is a touchy subject for many Somalis) and he probably knows that, hence wouldn’t think twice about doing so. but now since being elected we hope he has changed colours. You basically summed up my point. JB, what :confused: ? Anyway let's just hope for peace.

But does that make defference who he sided with?! To most of us it doesn’t. Thanks for answering my question though My brother Nationalist ignored me It’s not something to be proud of dee. We need to condemn all warlords, not care who they side with. Every couple of years they change alliances anyway :rolleyes: . My friend from Afmadow, tried to reason to me that the reason Jess sided with Caydiid is because he regarded the sub-sub clan of Caydiid to be a long-lost son of the tribe of Jess- Somalis and their stories :rolleyes: . I don’t even believe in this qabiil history let alone this (I just laughed ). Personally, this for me was a perfect example of how warlords could not care any less about anything other than own personal interests. Caydiid was after all killed by his own guard. Anyway, you know that Kynda is very ill . Make duca for her. I saw her at the masjid the other night (she was well), then last night I called her while she was on her way to the emergency department.

Smith, No need to get all touchy brother . Say anything about good old CY and Smith is bound to come to the rescue :rolleyes: . Cajiib, very loyal you are. Regardless, I would of have said the same thing about anyone his age. His family matters not, the point is most Somalis around that age do not know when exactly they were born. It is an educated guess, not fact. And anyway, ease it up will you. I can be sensitive; I am a woman after all . But really, what is your excuse ?

JB, Brother do you not understand that there is more to this than CY? Irrespective of what anyone might think of him, this is a chance for Somalia and all Somalis. Let’s keep this in mind and be hopeful. It’s unfair that you try and foresee failure for us simply because of your views of CY. At this point in time, a true Somali will hope for the best and not let their views of any leader cloud their judgment, to do so will only highlight that which may seem as obvious. More and more, the obvious is coming to light, best you do a u-turn now before it's too late- hatred only consumes . And anyway, I very much doubt that CY or any MP will sell out their fellow Somalis- not because they’re decent god-fearing individuals but because they know of the consequences if they do.

^ The point was well noted though brother,lool . Another point i did not miss .