Animal Farm, Brother do you acknowledge that when choosing a potential mate there are many more criterias than those commercialized by the misguided image of cupid? Is the only issue of matter love? I personally believe that the head needs to be a considerable force in our decision making process, especially in matters of such importance such as this. When making such decisions we need to keep in mind the feelings of our families and those around us. I was raised in the west, my parents speak very good English yet I know that to bring in a non-Somali to the family would disturb the comfort and true understanding factor (it is not of my own doing or that of my family-it just is). Likewise, it would be an issue of discomfort to the family on say a Lebanese brother. At the end the choice is there for everyone to make, but I do truly believe that the obstacles are many- it’s up to he/she who wants to tackle them, but I certainly would not be comfortable with them. This is an issue of personal choice and opinion; I do believe that we are all entitled to this without disbelieving in the human potential movement .

Let’s separate two issues here, whilst something can be xalaal it might not necessarily be the best choice and a person can be adverse-nothing wrong with that. To be of this opinion does not mean that one is against the teachings of Islam or in this case is racist. Racism is the prejudice that members of one race are inherently superior to members of another race. I don’t see how Modesty then becomes a racist based on this-no where in her post did she explicitly or implicitly write that she believed that Somalis were superior to other races-all she said that she would like to see offspring whose parents are both Somali-nothing wrong with that fellow nomads, it is her opinion and in no way is that racist. You lot express that it is fine that we mix with other races (which is also fine) and she does not prefer it- THAT DOES NOT MAKE ONE RACIST . There is a hadith where nabiga expressed his dislike (if memory serves me correctly) for lizard meat although it is xalaal. From this we learn that one can express such opinions. We all know and acknowledge that Islam abolished and forbids racism, likewise we all know that it is xalaal to marry outside of ones race or of a different culture, but on a personal level I would never recommend it-if it can be avoided it should. The reasons are not based on racism, but rather it is an issue of understanding and really just comfort. When you marry an individual, not only are there two individuals involved, but the families are also connected-it’s not just about the two of you (which is what many of us seem to forget). There would be many obstacles to overcome (more than with a person from your own background). You can overcome them I suppose, but it is very difficult. For myself I would never marry any but a Somali man (unless of course Allah has other plans), would never recommend it to my siblings, friends or children. But if they chose it, I’d probably try to convince them otherwise, if they however adamant and the person fulfills the Islamic requirements then so be it-but still certainly not my first choice. It's not like there aren't decent god-fearing fellow somalis around. Likewise I never ever recommend to my son-Somali friends to marry a Somali-the same rule applies.

Jazaakum Allahu Khayran, and yeah sure . You can get a lot more on the net. Just listen to his lectures (most times you can pick out the leniency) and then show your friend what the Qur'an and Sunnah say about those topics which he allows (e.g. riba for education or music). We all commit sins but the problem is when you make it xalaal.

Lander, Ayoub, Tolstoy and all SL, just a small side-point (more like an unrelated question if I may). As some of you are aware, half of my family reside in Boorama and many are “natives†(as is defined by Somalis). Having said that obviously I have contact with many and recently in a discussion with some of the reer Boorama folk here, they voiced a very interesting point which I’d like to read your views on. They expressed that the concept of SL is hopefully a temporary feature until hopefully the rest of the country get their act together. They expressed that there was no way that SLs could refuse the offer of under the hypothetical situation, Somalia electing a leader and government for themselves, stablise and prosper to a degree, and then come to the table of discussion with SL so as to unite once more. They also stated that in reality SL needed Somalia and that this self-governance is a temporary thing till we all get our act together. How do you guys see this?

Hamza yusuf is Sufi as he states (just like his buddy Nuh Ha Meem Keller) and his teachers were Sufi. He is generally lenient in his views, but in terms of caqiidah (which is the most important) i am not sure, but if we go by what is normally considered to be Sufi it does not look promising. The brother is eloquent no doubt, but i'm not very found of some of his stances, riba for education is xalaal, so is music so long as evil things are not being sung about, ikhtilaaf is a blessing from Allah etc. He is good to get your iman up I suppose, but you have to have at least some sort of knowledge to listen to him otherwise you will be enticed by his eloquence and will most probably be more prone to taking on all that which is not only right but also wrong simply because of the way he says it. I personally do not listen to him, not that I regard him to be deviant or anything like that (who am I to rant off such things), but simply I know he is not someone who I can rely on to give me the correct information based on the Qur’an and authentic Sunnah. The other issue is interms of the political sphere, the brother is extremely and I mean extremely apologetic.

Mahadsanid Ameenah, once again a worthy thread . Once again we see the proof that the Somali women are indeed the backbone of our community. Our future lies in the efforts of the women, i say power to them and may Allah bless all the mothers,daughters, sisters, grandmothers, wives etc for their efforts. Aamiin

^It's all good brother As for Brisbane, you sure are a tight knit family, all three of you, you and the two other faaraxs looking over shoulder at the screen . Really i don't know how you guys survive, i could never handle it. My cousins (which I’m sure you'd know considering the community is so small) lived in Brisbane for two years after moving from Melbourne, they came back very grateful . Queensland is good for holidays, one of these days i shall venture up there.

Mabruuk Checkmate!

^Farxan, walaalo you really need to re-read, re-think and then perhaps retract your statement. If you had taken any notice not to mention read carefully before jumping down my throat like small child, you would of have noticed that I ended it with gossip . To be honest I did not take the story to be true, it was too far-fetched and too sickening to be the truth. I took as another load of garbage coined by Somalis, but now that you seem to clarify that as the truth, it is disgusting to say the least and to be friends with such an individual (on the assumption that what was said is the truth) is very very sad. Having said that, did I mention names (not that I know them)? It was for me a supposed story with no faces involved, I don’t see the need for you to overreact like it matters. The other issue is walaalo, cut the BS, get down from your fake high horse and get with reality, we all do it and at least I was nice about it (I didn’t believe it, mentioned it as gossip), yet you added the dirt to it highlighting the truth behind it. Bottom line is dear; find something worthwhile to try to preach about . Just so that you don’t confused again, I’ll do you the honour of quoting myself, this time READ CAREFULLY: Most of what is said amongst Somalis is gossip, you hear about the case of divorces in Melbourne (btw not generally with the youth who’ve recently tied the knot) and we hear of Sydney the macalin teacher enticing a young girl and her eedo at the same time, married both, the eedo knew, not the girl, both pregnant, the guy gets a good beating…you get my drift-Gossip. People these days :rolleyes: ! For God sake ku lahaa like some sort of sin was committed, jeez dude ease it up and better yet perhaps you could learn to comprehend better. Rayaana, Sister, you seem to have missed my point or perhaps i did not explain myself well, either way we are not on par here. Let me clarify my point just that little bit more in the event that I was ambiguous before. This my sister was not a Melbourne vs. Sydney issue, rather the issue of slandering the youth of Melbourne based on nothing more that the actions of a minority and gossip. My disagreement with you was and I quote you: quote: i personally think that the youth in Melbourne are very wild and unstable in the mind and it was in return that I was questioning on what grounds do you make such allegations. How is it that the youth (majority which is what is meant by your statement) are wild and unstable, what attributes or actions make them as such (like i said, widespread adultury, widespread usage of illicit drugs, widespread difficult relations between the youth and their families, widespread events of folks running off together etc)? Please do answer these sister, I mean we can be mature about this-it may seem that I take this to heart (the claws thing was a joke I swear it , I’m getting rusty), but it’s more an issue which concerns me, I am what is to be considered “youth†and I reside in Melbourne, i mean by your statement i am wild and unstable no ? Break it down for me and please gossip such as women fornicating and dahab being stolen (this was a first for me to be honest, cajiib) does not equate as proof. If possible please do provide stats or if not possible other factors particular to Melbourne and not to be found (in equally proportional figures-based on estimates of course) across Australia or the rest of the world wherever Somalis reside. We can all rant off of course, but it would be much appreciated if we could be more specific so as to determine the truth behind such opinions. And i cannot tell u the participants because hey i don't want to start fights on sol here, it is our custom us sydney siders to not perform such shamefull acts. And this is the custom of the sisters of Melbourne? These are the sweeping remarks I refer to sister. Don’t forget we are all Somalis, living in Melbourne or Sydney does not change that. as for the couples divorcing, there isn't figures as high or anywhere near to those of mels and again it is not comming from me, from its inhabitants so don't think iam being picky or making stories. I don’t think you are being picky or making up stories, maybe believing issues a tad too lightly. Yes I agree with you, the divorce rates are most probably too high, but the question remains, how is greater in Melbourne than say Sydney for example. I mean did you go out and individually count the divorce rates in every state and based on your statistical data conclude that the figures are higher in Melbourne? I’m sure you are an intelligent sister which means I’m sure you realize you cannot say because in the year of 2004 there were 60 divorces in Melbourne but only 6 in Sydney, therefore the divorce rate in Melbourne is higher-it’s about proportion sister. In terms of the Somali population (figures), Sydney does not a hold a torch to Melbourne, much like Melbourne does not hold a torch to say London. All my girlfriends who go there for a visit will for sure one way or the other come back witnessing a girl fight (kuu boodis) in a gathering or wedding and they reckon it is normal. Yeah shidh happens , I’m sure that had Sydney had our population the story would be very much the same. I don’t see how all these so-called events based on what heblaayo and hebel told you relate to the point here. Nothing said so far by you is factual or exclusive to Melbourne or is more prevelant in Melbourne than any other city within OZ. I ask you sister; please highlight for me what makes the youth more wild and unstable. What makes the Somali community in Melbourne worse than say Sydney? Finnally sister, Sydney is our Las Vegas (or San Francisco if we look at the homosexual numbers), and I’m not sure where exactly you got the idea that Somali folks here consider it to be the place for wadaadaha, trust me sister it’s the complete opposite (not that I’m saying it does not have good people or that the majority are lost), like I said it’s the place where the boys go to party (or have fun) without being seen by adeer axmad driving his taxi Saturday night . The other thing is sister, don't forget i have being to Sydney and i have seen for myself i know what i'm talking about, it is for that reason i asked you if you had visited Melbourne. As for Perth, family wise no doubt it is a better city for family life, smaller cleaner, but the problem is the opportunities are not as great, education is not as up to par and we Somalis like I said love to congregate and Perth just doesn’t have the numbers. I realize things are different in Sydney that many do move to Perth, but here not many people. And sis what do you mean melbourne is far ahead? Ahead more than sydney? You do realize that Melbourne is the world’s most livable city do you not (sorry had to mention that , it would end the discussion there)? As far as all that is considered important and used to determine livability, Melbourne not only exceeds and is far ahead of Sydney but most cities with the exception of Vancouver which also took the number one spot. I did not make this up nor did i conduct the studies, i'm just the teller. As for that gossip, it has reached mel? Yep and a very long time ago at that, probably the next day, you know how Somalis are, but you never take anything seriously . To be honest this is a first for me in terms of the truth behind it, I gave it as an example in an attempt to show you how far-fetched gossip can be (which is what I thought it was-farfetched) and how most of what you hear about over here is also most probably false. I can't believe that it actually happened, it's almost hollywood stuff, but then again the version told here could be half false anyway. All in all sister, nothing is taken to heart walaahi, but be advised that when making some statement be sensitive about generalizing, at least say some youth (as is the case for all cities be they Sydney, Perth, London, Toronto etc) or something along those lines rather than slandering innocent people .

*Brings our reer Melbourne claws* Rayaana, In all fairness sister, I think your comments are a tad over-exaggerated not to mention not really based on facts. I too have being living in Australia for an extremely long period of time-trust me; I’ve being here since Somalia was nabad if you get my drift . Having said that over the years I’ve come to know many people, like most of those who run off together for Queensland or Adelaide. These people sister, are not necessarily bad people just a by-product of the ways of society at this time and because of their parents who deny them their rights because of silly issues. To say that the youth of Melbourne are very wild and unstable is also very wrong. I mean I see you live in Sydney, how have you come to this conclusion? Have you lived here for so long that you’ve come to see this of most of the youth? By making such a statement you are basically stating that most if not all of the youth are as you believe. Let me tell you a few things about my fellow Melbournians, sure enough there are some lost souls amongst us youth here (notice the some, very small in number and certainly not enough to generalize as you have), but the majority are your average youth, the average girls adorns her xijaab, attends her school, might chat to boys on the phone (gotta take advantage of that Optus freetime ), listen to music, go to the movies with her girlfriends etc, however she is at home, attends dugsi, and on generally good terms with her family. These traits my sister do not make people very wild and unstable, we need to face it, this are the ways of the youth. Wild (as is indicated in this thread is to do such things as run away with a boy interstate) is an exception sister, how many people do you know that have run away? What 10 in the last year (I am so sure it’s more like 2 couples, but I’ll stretch it for arguments sake)? How do 20 people mark the youth in general as wild and unstable? Wild can also be those who make use of illicit drugs, how many do you know that do that, even if we were to stretch the figure to 25% (I personally believe that it is waaaay less than this, but once again let’s just stretch it for arguments sake), would that still be a majority? Bottom line is sister, religiously and culturally speaking we all know that Melbourne as far as the Somali community is concerned is far ahead of both Sydney and Perth combined (which is the reason why all the reer NZ folks have moved over here). Sydney is certainly out of the race (trust me sister, I know, I have being and seen, not to mention in my xaafad alone we have three families who have moved from Sydney in search of a more Islamic environment for their children-and some mind you were living in good old Lakemba), I mean it’s the place where all the young boys in Melbourne venture out to have “some fun†(if you know what I mean). Perth is not too bad, but considering that the Somali population is so small and somehow or other Somalis have a tendency to congregate into one area, Perth is not a good option for he who is looking for his people-trust me I know families who moved to Perth a few years back from Melbourne for the sake of cheaper housing and cheaper Islamic schools, five years down the track and their back. As for the divorce issue, the rate is high wherever you go, it certainly is not issue only relevant to Melbourne, the same can be said about Sydney. Most of what is said amongst Somalis is gossip, you hear about the case of divorces in Melbourne (btw not generally with the youth who’ve recently tied the knot) and we hear of Sydney the macalin teacher enticing a young girl and her eedo at the same time, married both, the eedo knew, not the girl, both pregnant, the guy gets a good beating…you get my drift-Gossip. I am not saying that the youth in Melbourne are perfect, but I do believe that your judgments were biased and unfair. A few bad apples cannot represent us all. I think the Islamic lectures (of about 400 Somali youth) is a good testimony to this, not to mention the many studying, the many full quranic schools, how many are still at home with their parents etc. I mean here in Melbourne, in my xaafad alone we have young boys of 12-15 who have begun and memorized the Quran whilst here in Melbourne. Basically, the good and the bad exist, but undoubtedly (alxamdullilah), the good outweigh .

What's happening in Istanbul? ANZAC Day is over and it was in Gallipoli :confused: . Don’t tell me it’s sport related .

^He is running from the revolution. Dantiisa ayuu garanayaa , he's smart man that ina sankataabte.

No girl should be without two essentials: 1. Eyeliner (preferably kohl). 2. Vaseline (or Blistix-i prefer). More than this is not necessary really. As for face masks, qasil, cusbur, huruud (the usual somali mixes) are probably the best.

Ever heard of Amla hair oil? I used it also for a short period of time, but the stench was overwhelming :eek: . The better oil is the Sunsilk range-fantastic . It's light and very good for your hair. As for growing your hair, i can't remember ever having short hair, but a friend of mine who set out to grow her hair would a few times a week mix nafaqo (many different types) with avocado (ku shiid), put it in your hair (wrap it with a plastic bag or something similar), leave it while you do the housework and cook, then wash it off. Allow the hair to dry naturally, put the oil on, brush it and put it a bun or plaits. Every month or so be sure to give the hair a small trim and in no time your hair will grow. Walaahi i was amazed at the transformation and she did not go to extremes. Avoid harsh chemicals. Good luck !

Couldn't agree more. It almost seems that the womens section has become the playing ground for all things trivial and child-like. Me thinks that a revolution needs to take place , what say ye girls?

Northerner, To be honest, i'm not following this discussion as such i was just responding to: Ps, dont come back with......my family suffered also etc etc My points were simply as a result of issues i could not fathom. Anyway carry on folks, but i'm starting to think that this thread should be moved elsewhere.

^Brother, I’m sure you are aware that i of all people is not anti-SL, but to answer your question, often enough the same accusations can be laid at the feet of SLs. Often some overplay the victim card, every time the name of Siyaad Barre is mentioned, some SL has to speak of the atrocities committed by this man, like he did not commit such similar and just as gruesome crimes against other Somalis such as what happened in 79. We know what happened and yes we acknowledge, but it is not an exclusive suffering, Somalis as a whole suffered and to for example lay the blame at the feet of one tribe or southerners (as do some SLs) is wrong. The same could be said for those who lay the blame at the feet of particular tribe for the atrocities of Caydiid (usually the same people who are defending themselves against SLs from association with Siyaad Barre-not Baashi in case as this might become confused ). For me, it is one thing to justify the existence of SL based on interest, that they are getting themselves together are progressing and governing themselves (which I am all for, based on that I agree, go ahead, progress my brothers ), but to attribute the establishment of SL based on the atrocities committed by our late president is ridiculous because like I said, SLs were not the only people who suffered. This point needs to be acknowledged by SL, like many in denial from the rest of the country need to acknowledge the same was the case in SL.

^Yeah, amazing ay! I mean why couldn’t they have a Cadbury factory . Supuu, They say you have to aim high to get somewhere . Aim for 95 and you’ll most probably get about 85. Aim for 85 and you’ll probably only get 75. As you can see I adopt that strategy. I aim high, might not get it, but close enough is good enough. Xoogasde, Yeah, hopefully the views of many will take a turn for the positive. OLOL, You are more than welcome brother and trust me you will enjoy yourself . Qaad is a major problem, but it is a Somali problem and not exclusive to Xamar (it is for that reason that I did not mention that as a problem). I only mentioned those exclusive to the city.

^Likewise :confused: .

Femme, The point is not whether or not we sisters should be more careful, I mean after all we do make the decision. I was trying to establish the argument that it is not fair that girls receive more heat over the same sin which two thinking individuals partake. It is for this reason that I asked you as to whether or not you would give your girls more heat over this matter than your sons. It is one thing for me to warn my daughters and give them the speech of how she will be left with the burden, face the scrutiny yada yada- heck I use those lines myself, but as a deterrent not because I actually think it’s fair and would actually implement the ways of these same people (who always scrutinize the girls whilst the boys get off almost scott free). We need to make a clear distinction here; girls are not the only parents for any unwanted children. That child has a father and that father is responsible. If a young man were to impregnate a young woman (even if she was more than happy to do the deed), he still has responsibilities and if god forbid were it my son, that child would still be my grandchild. I need to give my sons just as much heat as my daughters for at the end of the day irrespective of whether he impregnates or she is impregnated, the resulting offspring is my flesh and blood, and morally, ethically religiously I have the responsibility of looking out for that child. It matters not who has the uterus; the son has a penis which makes him the father and hold him accountable for the life of that child. This my sister is not about girls trying to feel equal, rather we need to change our ways. Society gives girls more heat, society outcasts such young girls whilst forgiving the young men because we allow society to be that way-in fact we make up society do we not? I mean even if we (those who want the rights of women to be upheld and who believe that such thinking is unfair) are willing to scrutinize our daughters more than our sons (and believe it is right to do so), then how are things and society as a whole supposed to change? If we raise our boys right, just like we do our girls, then the problems of promiscuity would gradually become a non-issue.

The problem is somali commnty don't accept girls who crossed the line. So if u as girl are doing wat is not the norm of islamic and somali culture, and you are doing this cuz men are also doing it,then you will only be the victim. Yes we all know that our people are sexist and full of double standards (to the dhaqan police, save it, nothing but our religion is perfect), but that is beside the point. This thread is about a particular brother of ours who has highlighted the shortcomings of certain sisters and painted them as issues across the board. Furthermore, if we are to be concerned for our people and our community, I believe wholeheartedly that we should be discussing the state of our brothers for in reality they are in a sadder state than we are- I say like before, we tackle the most problematic issues first. This for me is not a male bashing session, but I’m sure that almost all will agree to this. Therefore with that being the case, why do we feel the need to say things such as “most girls†and we have now lost “the pride and joy of our nationâ€. These are pretty hardcore accusations and statements to make wouldn’t you say? Rahima - I think Somali brothers are doing their best and they are trying. Somali girls are excelling at a faster rate than boys becuz they get special attention, they are raised as commodities to be traded in the post-party phase - the its time to get serious, religious, and married phase of men - as Farxan argues. That is why men are able to recover from their previous misfortunate, and women are killed, disowned, mistreated, and get culturally alienated, when they become bad girls. Its a double standard, but hey its man’s world. What? Brother what are you talking about? Girls receive special attention? I don’t know about Montreal, but here in Australia and I’m sure most of the Somali communities the case is very different. We as girls not only have all the pressures placed on our brothers, but the further burden of our household duties. Take me for example, I am attending university, I also work (so far on par with my male counterparts), but then instead of having the pleasure of going home, having a cooked meal by my siblings or mother and relaxing, I have to get home and cook and clean because I am a female. This is the case for most girls who do want to progress academically and gain some sort of a career. Not only am I expected to be feminine and do all the womanly things (cook, clean, wash the clothes etc), but my parents also expect me to excel in my studies and make something of myself. I ask you then brother, why is it that there are more sisters studying at the tertiary level than our brothers when we undoubtedly (I am speaking generally) have more responsibilities and have more obstacles to face? Men up until they are married in my opinion have it far easier, we are the same basically but with more to handle. I am not saying that there aren’t men who work hard and step up to the plate, but I always wonder why the girls are succeeding more with so much more stacked up against them. Perhaps it’s because our community nurtures them to be lazy? From a young age his mother or sisters were running after him doing his every last task at home. How many Somali families do I know where the girls are not only expected to pursue an education like their brothers, but also she has to make his bed in the morning. You’d expect that she’d have more difficulties at school for example, yet somehow they outshine their brothers. The point is, there is something wrong here, much greater than the childish antics of the battle of the sexes. We need our men to step up more; we need the good decent hard-working men to be role models to the lost younger brother for at the end of the day a society will succeed if all play their part successfully.

Boqorka Boorama, Whilst most of what you say may perhaps be the truth, that there are some lost sisters-I’m sure no single female here will deny this, your points are a tad exaggerated me thinks . Perhaps it would be best if you replaced the “most†with some . Furthermore, simply because there are some lost apples it does not mean that Somali girls have lost “THE PRIDE AND JOY OF A WHOLE NATIONSâ€. The other issue is, brother you are male hence for you to speak of the problems of the sisters when your own sex are in a worse state is well kind of wrong. As they say, fix your own house first, advice your sex and then when they are better than the girls at least we can discuss how bad some girls might be. We all know that the brothers are far more lost than the sisters and we also know that the Somali women are the backbone of their families and community at large. In almost every credible atmosphere of life, the Somali girls are excelling their counterparts. Sadly this is the truth so let’s not dwell on how bad we Somali girls have become. I have a better suggestion, let us discuss how can we make the Somali male step up to his responsibilities? That sounds like a more imminent issue don’t you think ?

^ Are you volunteering, you’re a new comer ? Underdog, Just completed, masterpiece even if I do say so myself .

What is and what should be are two different issues. We know that society gives the girls more heat, but my point is why should we then condone such ideas-I mean we all acknowledge that the sin is equal and Allah does not discriminate. Are you all saying that girls should know better simply because they are girls? What about the young man? My point is basically, what is the difference and why should girls supposedly know better?

^It was just a suggestion sister As for the good old Queensland sagas taking place in Melbourne, the fault lies almost exclusively at the feet of the parents. Many of these youth, bring a potential partner to their parents in the hope of a xalaal marriage (it might not be perfect but I would rather have my child in xalaal than xaraam) and often rejection is served usually based on qabiil discrimination. I am not condoning their actions, but parents are meant to know better-it’s about time they changed their ways before all their children run off. Thank-god now it’s at least with Muslims/Somalis and they do usually get married beforehand (ignorance is excusable-there is no marriage without a wali), but I fear soon it might be with the non-Muslims. You need to be friends with your children. is this based on a true story, or a fictional event, in any case - people in North America are less likey to deal with such dilemmas - if they exist, i haven't heard of them Trust me brother, worse happens up top, not just in North America but also in Europe and Carabaha as compared to Australia. Generally speaking folks here are not too bad at the moment, but over the years they too are decaying and seem to be following behind their brethren up top.