while the other refers to prejudice against Jews as an ethnic and religious group (racism). Arabs also as they are semites.

no matter what you say, you cant convince no one that the number of occupied properties is insignificant. Was I trying to? You can hold an opinion-I mean you can believe that the sky is orange for all I care , but let’s not go on about it like its fact. Last I checked, this is a forum where people can hold opinions, agree as well as disagree. I know that even had Mogadishu been the opitimy of all justice and as liveable as Melbourne (Bracks better pay me for the plug), you’d still be spitting out how it is such an evil place like I care. This is a discussion, I am not here to change your views just like you’ll never change mine when you make baseless arguments. better yet, its an understatement to say that it is full with occupied property. Really, that’s interesting! so whats this bullshit about reer gedo and soomaali galbeed. Really? Is it bullshit? When was the last time you had a look brother? miyaadan ogeyn that the reer puntland owned more property in muqdisho than many usc clans, let alone those clans you just summed up Really? And..? Perhaps many people have sold their land? im reer muqdisho myself, and not one member of my family, friends or acquaintances that used to live in muqdisho have gotten their property back. That’s nice, let me guess you lived in Madina (you won’t get this so please don’t turn it into a qabiil thing). Or maybe you bring everyone bad luck . My family, friends and acquaintances have their properties-it must be my good luck . I know i'm wonderful! Seriously though Sky, everything you say is qabiil orientated (like i give a stuff about the usc, why do you always mention that to me horta, i swear i have never ever paid them any money ). You come up with figures, often I wonder based on what research, go on and on about Mogadishu like it has no good, the bad outweighs etc. What else am I expect to think? I mean one cannot even debate with you. And I really don’t want to. So let's talk about something more interesting,hmmm, what about the weather :cool: ? You know we haven't had any rain for so long, i'm afraid they will tighten the water restrictions. What do you think ?

Now, walaashiis, allow me to clear some issues--not issues, indeed, however the issue of some Soomaali citizens "xalaalizing" some residential, industrial and commercial properties. Not and never was this contested, xaraam undoubtedly. I don’t know where the discussion of xalaalizing came into it :confused: , I never once said it was right and I know I am repeating myself (I’m almost annoying the crap out of myself :rolleyes: ), BUT IT IS NOT THE MAJORITY CASE-you know it, I know it and anyone who has bothered to actually go also knows it. However, I agree, all you state above is the truth-I’m not here to deny the truth brother . I don't believe i dismissed any that you had to say-trust me i know you saying it as it is. All I was suggesting was that we should not be making this an issue of epidemic proportion (at the end of the day, knowing what the city has endured we can safely conclude that the good and legit outweigh the evil and wrong-do we agree on that?). Yes, it is an issue of importance and really can only be addressed appropriately by a functioning government but we don't have to for example say that Xamar is a looted city- how unintelligent is that, do people even know what that means or is implying? As for the government infrastructure it would be ridiculous of us to expect it to be intact, who would rebuild it beside a government (which we all know we have not had)? I was not surprised to find it in that state, in fact I expected it-this once again is an issue for the government. I’ve seen all that you’ve seen. To be honest, I do not remember the city as far as infrastructure goes, I was only six when we left in 1990, but based on the recollections of my mother, your assessment is basically correct. I was not saying otherwise, rather like I said it was the usage of incorrect terminology and the blowing out-of-proportion of the issue which I disagreed with (I’m sure at the very least this is a point which you know to be the truth). Like I said we cannot lash out words such as full and majority when it is a marginal problem as compared to the legit. The city is too crowded, over-populated and as I remember reading in an article before I left, it has more people now then before the war. Therefore this pattern of setting up shop everywhere and anywhere is once again wrong but no real surprise- I mean people are now buying and building homes on the road to lafoole and some on to Afgooye-this took my mother aback. With so many people and so many traumas, one cannot expect that Xamar would be the same. Take into consideration all of that and I am surprised at the developments and the state. The other issue I never quiet understand how it is that we tend to over-dramatise the issue as it only applies to Mogadishu. Oh how we love to bring up in almost every discussion of Mogadishu the issue of looted property (not you as such, but some Somalis). I often wonder, what makes for example the expansion of say Town X (just in case I get accused of targeting ) any more legitimate than the wrongful building of property (whether private or business) in Mogadishu? We don’t have a government and have not had one for some time which determines the building and land regulations. This I agree with you is quiet a dilemma to be faced and to be tackled by our government (kind of like apparently how Siyaad Barre-may Allah have mercy on him- restricted the pathways of homes so that road widths could be of a particular measurement), but it certainly is not an issue exclusive to Mogadishu. Who gives the folks of Town X the right to sell land which does not belong to them (it is government land-the land of the people in general)? With the establishment of a government we can then have the selling and buying of such property for the government represents the people, but till then it does not make it any more legitimate.

Amitallah, It's all good sister, and the people i was speaking of are Somalis. Lexus, Why the need to always be so harsh? You can say your point in various ways, no need to put every person under the guillotine like you have something to prove. Ease it up walaal .

America is worse and no not just because of the war on Iraq. Have you forgotten about Afghanistan and the way they oppress the rest of the world :mad: ? I don't care how good things are at home (not that they are, supposedly)-this is one point we cannot forget! And um folks let us not forget we are Somalis-not Americans, Australians, Canadians, Poms etc. It does not bother me if one were to make fun of Australia (i might say something if it is wrong, but certianly not a right exclusive to OZ), because i am a Somali and my homeland is Somalia .

I guess Rahima is tired of all the BS in this place too I couldn’t care any less about the BS (your sources are not very credible anyway, don’t worry they’re not alone in that), at the end of the day who gives a stuff how many MPs went where. I want to know what the bloody hell are they doing? So far I have not seen anything-this is my interest really. What are they doing for my country which they elected themselves to lead. Day by day this whole thing seems to be heading towards khasaaro lane. It’s so hard to keep the optimism alive-I almost feel like I’m lying to myself. How do you do it General, I mean keep the optimism? I suppose the prospect of CY going into the annuals of Somali history as the saviour of Somali politics would serve as a great incentive .

^Oh that was heated :eek: . Did I say something wrong :confused: ? I summarized what basically took place, either way no pun intended (me swears on The Almighty).

^America is worse , much worse! - From a neutral Somali residing in Australia (the third best country in the world, still confused at how Norway and Sweden could pip us to the post :confused: )-

Oh man this is getting so tiresome :rolleyes: . What is wrong with these people, my friends and I could do a better job at running the country. What we need is one decent god-fearing Somali man to lead (very hard find, but the search will be worth it) and the rest Somali women to form a government and run the country. Obviously the men can’t do the job, we must take over! This does not contain any traces of sarcasm-extremely serious!

^Still adamant on the second ay! We are all entitled to our opinions (so long as they are not blasphemous against Islam), but in future it is best that we state such points (without the backing of any founded research or stats) as an opinion rather then masquerading them as bold fact. The other thing is, brother I believe I acknowledged the problem before this last post to you , but in all honesty it strikes me as odd that one could hold an opinion not based on much which is credible. It is your prerogative I suppose, but it leaves me baffled at the very least. Jaws of death-nice! Advice from a sister of yours-go and see for yourself , soon you will come to see that most of what is said is nothing more than BS !

you don't have to deny the issue of "occupation" of certain properties by certain people in Xamar. Have I :confused: ? I thought it was I who wrote: 1.Mogadishu is inhabited by many people who have worked hard for their livelihoods in a legitimate form, but yet there still do remain a small number of people living on xaraam and it is this which should be fought to restore justice, Am I mistaken here, or is that admission of a problem? I don’t see how such a statement translates as denial. Like Xiin, MMA how can we come to such a conclusion? I mean it happens, but it’s ridiculous for us to even say that every second house is looted and lived upon wrongfully, let alone full of. I believe in relation to the looting the sum of these houses(rightfully owned) far surpasses. The other thing is brother, you have been to Xamar also, without going to the other extreme are you now going to tell me that the majority of the people and home owners are not legitimately there (that of every one hundred homes, ugu yaraan 51 are attained in ways of xaraam)? Are you going to tell me that the problem is so widespread that almost every house and property is looted? This is what is been contested here. I am not arguing that this is a problem-even one home wrongfully attained is wrong, is a problem and should be fought. But this argument of OH XAMAR HAS BEEN LOOTED and almost everything (which can be loosely translated as “fullâ€) is built on xaraam is nothing but BS. This disagreement brother is on a technicality really, usage of words and over-exaggeration. How many people did you meet in Xamar who owned their homes legitimately and then compare it to those who did not? Can we then say it is the majority, or use words such as “fullâ€? We can speak up against wrong, we can try to make change, but we don’t have to do injustice whilst at it. There is no need for us to attack and tarnish the many good people of the city because by making statements such as the city is “full†of looters, in essence we are saying the majority of the people are evildoers. Last, is not Bermuda not one of the unsafe areas of Xamar (if not the most)? Bermuda my brother is not indicative of the general case in Mogadishu, nor was your experience. It happens (sadly), but we can't paint it as the broad instance.

^wa calaykum salaam sister. Re-read what i wrote. I think you misunderstood. I know families who moved to Perth a few years back from Melbourne for the sake of cheaper housing and cheaper Islamic schools, five years down the track and their back Here it is again, they moved TO Perth FROM Melbourne for the cheaper housing and islamic schools.

I once upon a time used to have hope in the youth-no longer. I have thrown out such a thought. The youth have become the identical images of their parents. If we list off all that which is wrong with the older generation, we will find the same and in many instances even worse points in the youth.

What reports should one produce to convince you that Xamar has indeed been infected by the plague of land-grab. The burden of proof is on you brother, I did not make the statement, you did. Like I said even if not statistics (as I can appreciate that this will be extremely difficult if not impossible), at least a credible piece of information highlighting that this problem (which is xaraam and should be fought-that as a Muslim I agree with completely, it’s is disgusting and should be dealt with) is still the majority case. You resolved (it now seems) to over-look quite conveniently my declared appreciation and acknowledgement for those who laboriously worked hard to build their lives as you needlessly repeat answered questions. Or may be you don’t take yes for an answer, I wonder. That wasn’t my stance, I acknowledge your appreciation brother , but allow me to give you two scenarios, one I disagree with and one I agree with: 1.Mogadishu is inhabited by many people who have worked hard for their livelihoods in a legitimate form, but yet there still do remain a small number of people living on xaraam and it is this which should be fought to restore justice, or 2.Mogadishu is full of people living on the looted properties of rightful owners who fled during the invasion, but there are folks who have worked hard for theirs. Basically in my opinion, the first is reality (which is what I agree with) and the second is how you paint the case (which I disagree with). One (the latter-yours) makes the continued looting as the majority case and the other (the former) acknowledged the problem exists but certainly not to the degree of been a widespread case. Like I said just because many people have moved to the Diaspora it does not mean that they have lost their properties, often enough it is been looked after for them. Sky, nope that doesnt make sense. u have gone all the way to somalia to visit ur family and u didnt bother to visit ur reer abti in puntland. ceeb! laakiin ok i see what u mean. u do have to admit, you confused this brotherman. You’re confusing yourself walaahi , which one is it, “nope it doesn’t make sense†or you see what I mean? The other issue is, can I and my mother not of have seen her family in Mogadishu? or are you still stuck on the old days where supposedly reer PL could not step foot in Mogadishu. I did have the pleasure of meeting my maternal aunts and uncles, in Mogadishu (don’t keel over with shock now ). Our choice was either Gaalkacyo or Boorama, we chose Boorama. But at the end of the day Sky, the tribes of my parents should not matter, first and foremost I am Muslim then Somali so I find it odd when you make stup!d statements like I am anti-PL (even more favourable to this than you is our dearly beloved and somewhat me thinks confused on this brother Mobb). I remember a few months back after asking him to provide proof that I was as he loves to accuse me, he never provided it, apologised and we moved on. Now it’s back again, with you at his side and once again I ask you to provide us all with proof. I mean it isn’t very credible or manly to make accusations and not provide proof. See with you I could easily prove that you are steered the way which you claim of me, the qabiilist way- you did use “hutu†or was that another Sky? :confused: -I could provide so many other proofs, but I cannot be bothered not to mention I technically am not making an accusation .

^My pleasure kiddo Even if admin were to ban you again, you'd find some way to lurk back, so enjoy brother and i am so glad that i gave you a good laugh . May it bring you happiness and much joy

Not possible you say Sky, little you know dear. Perhaps you belong to one of those families that go around in circles, you marry your first maternal cousin, your sister marries your first paternal cousin, your parents are first cousins. I can understand how families such as mine would be very confusing, so I’ll break it down for you. My mothers family are what you so like to term as reer PL, my fathers are in Boorama (his mother was a native, which makes half of his extended family what we like to term reer Boorama), but the roots of my fathers family are from Southern Mudug. There, does that make sense now dear Sky. Now run along and play with them toy planes .

Back to your old "patriotic" amxaaro bullshyt again huh. Old boy is at it again na'mean. Back to your old “treacherous†we need the amxaaro to save Somalia BS again huh. Old Boy is at it again na’mean. Don't pick on my friends :mad: . Now remember, girl bashing is not very manly .

Ha? Which part of this concerns PL? :confused: you need a magical validation of your anti-puntland arguments Should i tell you my mothers name? Just the family name would prove my stance on PL (i mean because by saying PL, it isn't the administration or even land which you speak of is it now dear brother ). Do you think it is possible for one to have negetive feelings towards ones mother ? Do you Mobb? Do you also believe that one could harbour negetive feelings towards a grandmother that raised and one was named after? Think about this before you make such claims in the future. Also, feel more than free to interrupt more often, just be mindful in future to stick to the topic or even make some sort of sense

^I can think of better ways to give the boy nightmares , but my mum taught me to never pick on people Watch the reaction folks,loool !

Brother in all honesty I have not followed the exchange between you and Xoogsade (so attraction would not be possible ), I just chose to question that last post of yours. Oh well, to paraphrase an Arab poem, it’s a sheer intellectual emptiness to debate about the existence of the sun. where have you been, sister, to ask such an abvious question? Look brother you still have not answered my question, how is that you come to know that this is extremely widespread and in essence the city is occupied? Like I said what piece of credible information do you have for us (words on the Somali grapevine do not count)? I mean sure, it has become the popular thing these days for folks to cry day in and day out that Mogadishu is occupied and when you ask them how they come to know that this is the majority case, they often give responses similar to yours, where have you been? Oh my god everyone knows. But this is not what I asked; I asked HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT IT IS TO THE DEGREE WHICH YOU CLAIM? Please share it with us. Brother I am not denying the existence of the matter, like I said it is the degree which I question. I’ve often wondered, has anyone tried to retrieve their land (because I know for a fact that he who can legally prove that land belongs to them will have it returned to them, in Southern Mogadishu anyway where the courts function)? For those who have fled, has it ever occurred to you (and others with similar views) that many still rightfully own their land (like my family members, all from different tribes)? That their homes are leased out by their family (even if a different “ilk†nonetheless they still do have immediate family in Mogadishu). I know generations who’ve been uprooted by the invading ilk. Yes I’m guessing we all do , but this is the problem we all seem to be stagnant in the past-times have moved on, if you want a piece of Xamar, brother you can get it. Just to give you a small example, after the two main tribes currently inhabiting Mogadishu, the two largest tribes are that of Somali Galbeed and Gedo. They live in many areas and have great stakes in the city. The bottom line is brother, this whole thing about Mogadishu been occupied and homes looted is so over-rated now-those people are generally gone and in their graves. There are a new breed of people, who are working hard for theirs so there is no need for us to keep on dwelling on issues which are no longer of such relevance because at the end of the day, if you want your land back, go and get it. If this does not happen, injustice occurs everywhere, it is xaraam and should be fought, but we as Muslims need to also be fair, there is no need to tarnish the city and the millions of people living there because a few evil men occupy a few homes and then paint it like it is an epidemic.

^I have been, but certainly not for reasons of taking a poll . My question was not based on the administration or self-governance, rather the seeking of independence and recognition as an independant country on the world stage. It may not be the case across the board, this was nothing more than simple questioning. Nothing more, nothing less.

^ Brother, you state: Xamar is full of people who are occupying properties that are not theirs and as such it is an occupied city. So i ask, how is that you have come to know that xamar is "full" (the point which i am contesting here, you are stating that it is extremely widespread and is the majority case) of people who are occupying property which is not theirs? I mean have their been studies done?, statistics concluded? By what measurements (aside from the somali grapevine and the ever so wonderful media of ours ) have you come to conclude this? The other issue is, do you acknowledge or even accept that perhaps the opposite is the case? That this issue of occupying is over-exaggerated, that the city is full of people who are rightfully there and have worked hard for their property and businesses? Is this is a possiblity, or are you adamant that this issue of occupation (particularly in xamar which is what i know of) is as certain folks claim it to be? Be mindful when replying that I am not denying that it exists, but it is to the degree (which you have elevated to "full") which i contest.

^You see this is what I never understand with you Sky, do you even understand what is written or somehow or other you choose to read unnecessary things into it. In terms of Somali politics, certain tribes are more favourable to one another than others (or are you going to contest that?), all they said was that reer SL are more favourable to reer Mogadishu then say reer Bossaasso-I did not say this (nor am i aware of any truth to it), nor were they saying it was correct; it just is the sick mentality of Somali politics based on this qabiilist mentality which you have so kindly shown us with your reply. They were hypothesizing under what conditions unity would be more likely (as far as they were concerned), that Somalia elect for itself a non-warlord as a leader, preferably (not a must) from a clan other than that of our former president (somalilanders are not alone in this qabiil mentality, we all are, folks rejected c/qasiim because of the tribe he hails from, some reject CY for the same reason, it is not right, but it happens) and for the country to achieve some success and stability. that bullshit got us in this mess in the first place. Really? I’m so surprised you even know this, judging by your post, was it not you who so maturely used “hutuâ€, you are swimming in this BS you speak of. And like you care about the "mess" we are supposedly in, the likes of you with your "hutu" this and that are exactly the sorts of people which propagate it. In future perhaps it is best that you look at issues from various perspectives rather than only reading that which you hope it states. The other thing is dude, walaahi you have serious issues to deal with, I’ve told you so many times, ease it up, there are no hidden agendas.

Xoogsade says the government is not welcome in Xamar, yet Mogadishu welcomed the PM with open arms and there are many articles as one posted earlier which constradicts the assumption that Xamar is anti government... Forget about Xoogsade, do you think CY should immediately go to Mogadishu (I mean you do agree that reer Mogadishu would welcome the government do't you)? Why doesn’t good old adder CY just stop this game of his and get to the capital then? What is stopping him? Dude you're shooting yourself in the foot here, on one hand the people of the capital are pro-government (which i agree with) then on the other hand you support every damned step of our president including his unnecessary avoidance of going to the capital which is where he should be running the country from. Which one is it duke? Is adeer wrong for his cowardice act of continuing to run or are reer Mogadishu hostile to this government? Either way your reply will make me smile God, i'd love to see the day that Duke admits that CY is in fact just a mere mortal with mistakes (perhaps more than most people). This would be a start

Ayoub, The people I know from that region don't share those views, on the other hand, I seen people from Hargeisa who agree with your relatives. These my brother were not necessarily my relatives (mine are mainly back in Boorama), but they all expressed this point I was asking of- and we have a considerable reer Boorama population here, more than reer Hargeysa anyway. With this though brother comes the natural sequence of questioning, why is it then would there be a need to bid for independence? It is one thing to self-govern for the time being and a totally different thing to seek complete secession. Well, get your act together then, innit? But this is my point, regardless of whether or not this was to happen, it seems SLs (with the exclusion of reer Awdal) do not want unity (feel more than free to correct me if i am wrong, i'm only going by the views of most of the SLs on this forum), therefore it questions the argument that SL should be allowed to forge ahead and not be held back by the rest of the country. I think it’s more credibly to argue that “it just is†and “we want to†rather than attribute it to the supposed downfalls of the rest of the country because here the blame is been laid at the feet of folks who in actuality are not the reason for the secession-I’m hoping this makes sense. This is not an attempt to divide SLs (must clarify this before I’m taken to the slaughter house for this ), but just some simple questioning and to possibly highlight that the concept of all SLs seeking secession is not so- some and even arguably possibly a considerable number consider it to be transitional concept until unity can be achieved. Don’t get me wrong, I realize that reer Boorama are all for self-governance and are almost all for SL (as a temporary entity), but the roads seem to diverge on the matter of seeking recognition and independence. I’m sure there are some reer Boorama folks who agree with the secession and the seeking of independence, but in my experience I have not seen any with that line of thinking. I was just inquiring about your views . It is one thing to say that one does not foresee unity in the near future because they don’t believe that the rest of the country will get their act together, but a totally different thing to believe that secession should occur regardless of the circumstances. PS explain what you mean SL needed Somalia. I did not make that statement (one of the women did) nor did I care to inquire. I was just lazing around at my eedos (my fathers cousin) house when they begun expressing their distaste for CY (mainly over the foreign troops issue) and that had the leader being someone more respectable (i.e. not warlord) and preferably reer Mogadishu (as apparently SLs are more favourable to them) the issue of unity would of have been more promising.