^ NGONGE although i disagree with his justification of the invasions he is basically right on his assessment of the Muslims. Our downfalls are not because of the likes of Bush and Blair (but I don’t have to like them either), which is why I question whether or not Muslims are actually behind all of this and if so I wonder about their intelligence and common sense. Common sense dictates that this like I’ve said harms Muslims more than any other group. Assuming it was Muslims, If they truly cared, they would not be doing this and although I’m not very favourable to conspiracy theories, I am not willing to lay responsibility on Muslims just yet- we need more proof than just some statements on a website. I still cannot get my head around Muslims doing this or all the other attacks.

Secondly, as for those hesitant in condemning the London bombings and camouflaging their real opinions with subtle words like ‘frown upon’ – be true and say what it is you want to say. ‘Frowning upon something’ means disliking it YET finding it ACCEPTABLE. No hesitation, I think for any person who understands the English language and can comprehend my stance was very clear. Similarly to some perhaps “frown upon†could mean acceptance, when I say “frown upon†I dislike and do not accept - Just wording, choice of wording . I suppose there isn’t much one can do if others want to see whatever they wish. But since I am camouflaging and really want to say something else, what else may that be? I sure as heck would like to know, considering I do not know myself what I really want to say! Being concerned about a backlash against Muslims alone is selfish and shows the divided mentality in addressing this issue. The key word here is alone-by condemning it no longer becomes alone . Once again one cannot do much about what others want to read. This was not the only concern some of us might have; it is rather the consequential concern. We cannot go back on what happened, wrong sure, to be condemned sure; can I do anything about it now except condemn? No! Who are my primary concerns for now? The Muslims! Why? Because previous experiences have proven that after such incidences the backlash is pretty awful. So I’m wondering since when did it become a crime to discuss the issue or feel for my brother/sister Muslims? I think it’s called freedom of expression. I think i have a right to an opinion. In case there is anymore confusion, allow me to quote myself. Perhaps after this, it will become more clear. As hard as some may try, we can never justify this whilst condoning this current attack on London-both wrong, both should be frowned upon. I could of have sworn that by saying it was wrong I was condemning what happened or has wrong become synonymous with acceptance ? I don’t need Tony Blair to tell me how I should feel about the issue or agree with the whole of his Dubya like speech to condemn what occurred. I could of have sworn that by using “ condemn †I was actually condemning. I can’t imagine that anyone would be delighted about what occurred I could of have sworn that this was condemnation. Then again it could be me, I mean I am camouflaging and really want to say something else after all. NGONGE It should have no ambiguity or vagueness. It should not change whenever Bush or Blair do something to a “Muslim†country. NGONGE, let me save you some time. I don’t think anyone has thus far condoned what occurred. The response of the invasions was directed (if you had followed the flow of the discussion) at the point made I do watch the media outlets you mentioned on daily basis and I haven’t come across them justifying violence in any name. Unless you can tell me specifics, where and when they have done so. Which I then gave the examples of Afghanistan and Iraq. You obviously feel that these invasions were justified. I personally don’t want to argue about it. I disagree with you, like almost all of the Muslim world and a whole load of non-Muslims. The point I was making, and it seems you missed is, two wrongs don’t make a right. I don’t have to justify the attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan because some people felt the need to attack NY, Madrid or London. That is all dear, as for the actual invasions let's just agree to disagree- we will never agree on this matter.

Being an Arab is language, haritage, culture and belonging.So proudly I can say " yes I'm an Arab" Perhaps for you sister, but Somalis as a people, how do they fit into the points you listed? Our language is Somali not Arabic, our culture is not Arab-it just has Islamic fundamentals..so how then do Somalis become Arabs. Some can be- those who speak Arabic fluently, but it would be misguided to generalise the Somali people in such a way wouldn't you say?

There is a difference between understanding the plight of Muslims around the world oppressed by the likes of the UK and actually condoning what occurred. The two do not have to necessarily contradict. I can condone, yet I don’t have to transgress the limits and accept what happens in the Muslim countries from the attack on Afghanistan and Iraq, because first and foremost the poor and innocent Muslims suffer before the likes of Saddam Hussein. As hard as some may try, we can never justify this whilst condoning this current attack on London-both wrong, both should be frowned upon. One the same note, whilst I say I understand the feeling of Muslims to attack for example London, I also understand for non-Muslim Londoners to backlash against the Muslim Londoners (which is why I can’t understand for the life in me why any Muslim would do this), but both are still wrong. This is called human emotion which can be misdirected and transgressing! I feel for the British people, but certainly not Blair or any of his cronies, because everyday their cowardice is killing Muslims all over the globe-weather militarily or otherwise. Just because they do it under the guise of recognized government and proper military weaponry it does not become right or justified- I think most know this and there really is no point getting into an argument about it. I prefer to think outside of Dubya and wife (Blair) speech box. At this moment we should all be glad everyone seems to be safe and let’s hope and pray the backlash will not be as bad as it was in the US.

This government is not dead. Its in coma Lol! lool This is not very positive either

Commendable and wonderful effort, however it still does not change what Oprah set out to do. This was deliberate and I was disgusted more than anything not because she was so biased and discriminatory in her reporting, but because she is an African American woman. She of all people should know how it feels to be discriminated against (as it still happens it seems like her recent shopping trip), yet she deliberately did it to others. I say deliberate because unlike all the other countries reported on, the one on SA concentrated on nothing but negatives and was an attempt to disrepute Islam. Any person who actually watched that particular show would know what some of us anti-Oprah clan are referring to- I was ticked off to say the least! I hope she takes heed of such undoubtedly truthful words and apologises for her bias and discrimination.

I do watch the media outlets you mentioned on daily basis and I haven’t come across them justifying violence in any name. Unless you can tell me specifics, where and when they have done so. The invasions on Afghanistan and Iraq were justified (not necessarily by the people in general, but by the media and definitely the “world†leaders). Is this then not a form of justifying violence? Already, the 'us' and 'them' rhetoric has started in my office. Zeph, that is how it starts, little by little, first such rhetoric, next snickers every time you enter the room (although you have nothing to do with it), after that pulling off xijaabs, bashings, discrimination…and it goes on. These are the consequences which I fear for the Muslims. May Allah protect the Muslims!

Rahima, whether you do believe or not the PM, what he said is what all of us should feel and believe at this hour, regardless of who carried this attack. I’ve already said it is something to be frowned upon and I can’t imagine that anyone would be delighted about what occurred, but in reality people die of similar and just as gruesome incidences every day (Palestine to name one, action of coalition forces in Iraq, Afgnaistan etc)- I don’t need Tony Blair to tell me how I should feel about the issue or agree with the whole of his Dubya like speech to condemn what occured. Speculations are already flying around and they are directed towards the Muslims. But like I said, what I worry about is that this will not be looked at objectively but the blame will be laid automatically on you guessed it, the Muslims (this does not necessarily translate to agreement or justification). This will be far more reaching than what has happened today. People get over these incidences, over time all Londoners will come out to the daylight, but the consequences will linger. This is the exact reason why I don’t believe that Muslims do such things (and if they do, they aren’t very bright), because it harms us before anyone else.

Is there any doubt now about the intentions of Oprah? Does she still deserve the defence given to her by some of us nomads? Me thinks not! Like i said, the intention was clear from the get-go!

I in no way form or shape suggested that the brother is at fault or that he should punish ppl for their views. I was not saying that you said that brother Nur was at fault, I was just explaining the responsibility of Nur as a moderator which was a point you raised. I apologies if you thought that I was insinuating this about your comment . Nur, Pleasure is all mine brother. I’m doing well alxamdullilah and the Somali koalas are chewing happily on their eucalyptus leaves (take it how you want )

Hope not, he would be seriously contradicting himself if that will be the case, which I thoroughly dismiss. To be honest, i don't believe him as far as i could throw the man. The consequences may not be so blatant as to attack Muslims so openly or be obvious to everyone, but trust me, there will be consequences. At the very least, Muslims will be suspects and many will be questioned and searched and have their lives disrupted, at the very worst there will be backlash against the whole of the Muslim community, if not by the government then by the general public. I sure as hell hope that this will not happen, but sadly judging by the initial comments coming out (already the foremost suspects are Al-Qaida, which many will translate as Muslims) this is not looking good for the Muslims. Judging by the choice of wording from Tony Blair it is not looking good for the Muslims.

Interesting observation Jazemin. Whilst this is an incident to be frowned upon, i'm more concerned about the consequences and what it will mean for the Muslims of Britain.

^Which is my exact point!. I and i'm sure a few others are not sure how the term applies to Somalis and Somalia at this current stage, hence how could we be expected to answer it? I do not know (and find no shame in saying so). All i was doing was asking in the event that would you clarify it perhaps one could divulge an appropriate response and hence is applicable to this topic.

^I think the sister is referring to the popular usage of Diana which is when it is mixed with Dermovate (a topically applies corticosteroid medication used for the treatment of many skin conditions from psoriasis to eczema) and hence becomes a skin bleaching agent. Everyone just calls it Diana i think more for convenience than anything.

yanks returned the favour Sure looks like it ay Congrats to London, but you'll never beat Sydney, not with that shocking traffic, small streets, and ridiculous levels of pollution. Joke londoners, joke

If Muslims want to own property in the west, they will have to find other means then jeopardising their religion by falling victim to Riba. There are ways around this, Allah has made this religion easy, it’s just sad that we make it difficult for ourselves. All it takes is for the wealthy Muslims to establish a loans institution which adheres to the Islamic regulations of borrowing (the rental system). If this is not available to any of us, then we must make a choice, our religion or owning property (which is just a worldly gain after all)! As others have stated, if you can’t afford a house in your adopted country then perhaps Africa is an option worth looking at-beautiful house for a cheap price and no longer will you be held hostage by rent. We have many options; taking Riba really has no excuse. Deep down inside we all know it, but it seems that many of the Muslims who have taken these riba-based loans are trying to deceive and perhaps convince themselves more than others.

With all due respect brother Guhaad, that was uncalled for-it is possible that at times perhaps certain individuals may not be in tune with what you mean. With my query I was not trying to annoy for the sake of it, I was actually sincere and wanted you to clarify-I’m still not sure as to why that would annoy you. You can’t expect people to answer a question which is not really clear. The meaning of the question is dependant on who the asker is and how they define the term. You see, I can automatically assume that you are referring to the nationalism which is abhorred in Islam and thereby answer no, if however you mean by it to loves ones land, people, culture etc, then my original answer would no longer stand ground. If the concept of "somali nationalism" was taught in the schooling system, some of us have not had the pleasure of being educated in Somalia and have never come across it as a concept which is different to pure old nationalism. Basically by asking for a definition some of us could perhaps give an accurate answer without doing a disservice to my beliefs of Islam or my love for my country. Anyways please accept my apologies poking my nose in where it was not needed .

Someone's faith is indeed a very private matter Rahima. I understand how this could be applied to the beliefs of the kuffar, but how does it apply as to Muslims?

That is a private personal matter We are Muslims brother, this concept of ones religion being a private matter is based on the western ideology of give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and give unto God what is Gods i.e. separation of the church from politics and peoples lives. We don’t believe in that and religion is not a private matter.

Guhaad, I suppose it is of importance that we clarify what the term "nationalist" actually describes, because as is indicative in the following link nationalism is a concept which Islam is adverse to-but then it is open to definition. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/2704/article29.html On the other hand though if nationalism just means loving ones homeland and wanting the best for it, there is no harm in it (but then would you call that nationalism?)-therefore basically to define nationalism as a concept is crucial to this discussion.

^The problem with some of the threads in this section is not that we as users discuss the trustworthiness of certain speakers, but rather the manner in which we do it. There is no harm if one were to say hebel hebel is not very reliable for he does not provide sound proof, the problem is when we vilify the individual and bad mouth them. There is a clear distinction, and while I too did not particularly like that discussion or the way certain individuals have obsessions with glossing the image of the Saudi Royal Family or others who are on a crusade to attack anything salafi, there is no harm in having respectful discussions where we can disagree on certain issues (so long as they do not impact our caqiidah), hence brother Nur is not at fault for his responsibility is to keep the place clean not punish people for their views which are not necessarily against our beliefs as Muslims.

^Couldn't agree more Ameenah. One should never put their trust in their hearts or minds, both can be off the mark, Allah and the trust one has in Him never is!

I honestly feel sorry for these sisters; it is nothing more than a lack of confidence and self-esteem, not to mention their unawareness of the impending health problems. This problem though is to be attributed to our culture which dictates that to be beautiful one has to be light skin or a woman must be absolutely stunning to be considered attractive if Allah gave her a darker complexion. What do we expect from young girls who are made fun of when they are young because of their darker complexion? For god sake, most often it is their own families, who give them sick nicknames or comment on the light skin colour of her sisters, cousins or friends while she is just black!

Often many of the Muslims who justify the taking of riba (usury) based mortgages do so under the stance of claiming that it is daruura (necessity), however it must be known that to own a house in the west or anywhere in the world is not a must, one can always live happily by renting. This of course will mean that an individual will perhaps never have the pleasure of owning their own property; however they have not fallen victim to the traps which put their akhira and attempt of attaining jannah in jeopardy. I personally have never come across any of this group (which justifies the first home) which provide sound proof-it is based on their caqil and opinions which we know have their downfalls. We need proofs from the Quran and Sunnah. On the other hand there are those who stand by the belief that riba is not a must in todays society and can be avoided-we know this to be true. One can live as I’ve said quiet happily without taking interest based loans. Likewise we also know the Islamic stance on Riba hence it baffles me when people try to justify it. This as pointed out by Animal Farms seems to be the common trend for some of the young educated Muslims who want to compete with their kufaar counterparts in all ways, however they seem to at times forget that we are different from the Kufaar for we have restrictions as stipulated in the Qur’an and Sunnah. For those who are confused about the Islamic system of borrowing, allow me to quote from a previous topic on SOL: You are renting the portion of the house which does not belong to you. They have a right to receive rent on their portion considering that you are living in it. e.g. Say you bought a house for $100,000, paid 10,000 upfront. Also, the market value of rent in your area is 100 per wk. You would be paying 90 per week considering that you own 10% of the house and hence do not need to pay rent on your portion. If in a years time for example you paid off another 10,000, this would mean that you own 20% of the house and they 80% which you have to pay rent on, and hence your rent drops to $80. If in another 6 months time you came across great fortune and were able to pay another 30,000 towards the house, this would mean that you would have only 50,000 left to pay, hence you own 50% and the bank 50% of the house. Therefore, the rent drops down to only $50 a week.

Someone cannot marry for love alone, never happens because love is an accumulation of other factors, be it character, physical features, chemistry etc. Love comes after one is satisfied with certain qualities of a person, therefore it is impossible to really say one married just for love. We all have various opinions and factors which are important to us, for me akhlaaq would have to take the cake, even before diin simply because we all know a Muslim is the only person we would marry, but when we say diin we are contesting the degree of practice. There is no point in one having no akhlaaq but seemingly suburb diin (it’s an oxymoron in actuality). It would be nice to have both, but if not possible, I’d certainly choose the brother with akhlaaq, whom I get along with and has a love and potential for the practice of the diin. I’d rather have that than the person who has superb diin but we have nothing in common. In no way am I belittling the diin, but I suppose we all have different theories on what the cut-off mark for diin is. Also a great factor is potential, a drive, a goal in life, if the brother doesn’t have any of these (which sadly is the case for many brothers and sisters alike-they all want the average Xalima and Farah lifestyle) then macsalaama. As for my parents, I value my mother’s opinion more, she is fair, my father believes that most young Somali men are to put it loosely losers. He expects everyone to be just like him, and that is almost next to impossible.