what i dont agree with its the Abu Dawood narrates that ... no part of her body should be seen but this-and he pointed to his face and hands This is third-party news, accepted or not, it relates information 3 hops down the communication chain. Now come the questions? if you can take what Abu Dawood says as the firm unbaised, not embedded in specific cultural or social norms, then fine. but you cant expect this to imply longer/bigger the better for every one. It is a sahiih hadith Caano Geel :confused: . You cannot not believe in this as a Muslim, unless of course you too deny the Sunnah of Rasuallah, which then would mean we have nothing to discuss also. And obviously the more observant a woman’s dress is of the stipulations, the better she is covered. This is logic walaa . however you forget that the man is addresing wahhabism, not islam. I don’t believe in the existence in this so-called wahaabism. Also even if were to accept its existence for arguments sake, is the xijaab part of wahaabism or part of Islam? The latter I’m sure you will agree, so then tell me, what exactly does he mean “black cloak of ignorance†when referring to the command set by Allah? its a man expressing his opinions. Expressing opinions for a Muslim should have limits, unless of course you do not care about your akhira, then think and word off what you so wish, but be ready for the consequences. Mockery is not a light matter Caano Geel, and I suggest you repent from your episode of it also .

I dont know walaalo, I need ideas from readers, and then we will open an e-Nuri no hussle quick stop Gudid clinic for troubled teens, will use latest technology? ( By the way, I have e gynocologist friend of mine , very devout, he has seen unspeakable cases of teens mutilating themselves with jewelery, how come no one is up in arms to stop that?. You want to know my take on this, it is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting Nur. I’m actually surprised and extremely taken aback by such a suggestion. No I mean as in you don’t think that FGM will stop promiscuity do you? No, walaalo, I dont think, Ok so how is it then do you think it will make this problem disappear or cease it to be so widespread? I mean if it’s not achieving the alleviation of the problem then what is the point of chopping up people (females really, since we all know chopping a penis is not something you or any other man would actually call for but it’s added just to avoid labels of sexism). If a young teenage girl happens to fall into zina and falls pregnant, then ultimately it is sin (a major one) no doubt, but there is hope for her to repent for Allah is ‘qafuur ar-raxiim’ right? As for perpetual sinners then the problem lies with their parents, and lets not blame just society. Many of us grew up in the west exposed to all the sins and we have not brought home children out of wedlock now have we? And not all of have been mutilated like you are calling for. Walaahi I’m sickened by this, absolutely sickened. I’m very confident that you are misunderstanding the concept of the lesser evil. I was under the impression that lesser evil choice comes into play when there is no other choice, but here you have a whole array of choices, so how do you then explain this? Inshallah Sh Umal will be here with as just after Ciid, this is definitely something I plan to ask. I can’t imagine that Allah’s religion would allow for this- if it is not religiously based Nur and just your opinion then please don’t make it sound like it is diin (the lesser evil concept is Islamic no?). And I have not smiled once Nur, I’m absolutely disgusted. I realize I keep saying that, but really I have no other way to describe what I am feeling about this-words fails me. ^^ Shiiq nuuroow, chopping the penis for avoiding the teenage girls to concieve pregnancy makes me laugh, but I understand your intent which is to appease Ms. Sheherazade. I agree brother its better to send these girls to Kuntuwaareey instead of living with the indignity of ceeb iyo fadeexad, oo ay kuu dheer tahay carro ilaaheey. the sisters should be angry at the young ladies who bring about the demise of our social reputations by illicitly using their reproductive organs. Yes, evil eve ay :rolleyes: . Who brings shame to our social reputations Alle-ubahaane, the girls or the boys? Honestly that is disgustingly sexist. The whole world knows that promiscuity is more rampant amongst wiilasha then it is amongst gabdhaha, so save the BS walaal. This frustrates me more then anything for both you and Nur are meant to be educated God-conscious Muslim men, but in this thread to say you have both fallen short of the mark would be an understatement. And Nur, see how your chopping of the penis comment is perceived. We all know it is appeasement.

No I mean as in you don’t think that FGM will stop promiscuity do you? And um, assuming that we play fiddle to your claim here, how can you determine what a girl will become? So you are basically calling for the mutilating of a poor innocent child in the event that she sins in the future? Please and with all due respect, explain to me how that works. Confusion is an understatement.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later, I'm strapped for time. Although I’m sure this will come across as rude (it is not my intention), don’t bother. I cannot discuss Islamic issues with a person who denies the Sunnah. Like i said I cannott discuss why you should be fined without your P’s up if you believe that the road laws in Australia are whole load of crock

You cannot be serious Nur.

What the elected Presodent of Somalia, who has the support of the people of lower Shabele got to do with this is again a question posed to you. President Yusuf is no saint, but neither does he occupy land wrongfully nor does he support such action. He has done worse than occupying land wrongfully, he betrayed Somalia and Somali people. How I’m sure you gasp. We normal thinking unbiased people know , just the brainwashed qabiilist folks deny it. What I still find most interesting is how you can compare say for example Sh. Xassan Dahir Aweys and CY and then deem the former as worse. Keep digging the hole for yourself . windtalker, quit with the Rahima tactics. Sky, please get over it waryaa. Honestly, it ain’t looking good for your manliness here. Everywhere you go somehow you have to mention my name. I’d apologies for the trauma if I didn’t find it so amusing , but really please enough is enough. I’m flattered really, but khalaas. That's dumb to think. Aweys is a hypocritical killer who turns a blind eye on the injustices done by his kinsmen and kills and chops off the limbs of the poor Xoogsades of Mogadishu from weak minority groups, such as the Bantus for petty crimes dwarfed by people such as himself. We all know what Allah -swt- has reserved for hypocrites. Their faith is worse than the worst sinners. This nutcase called Aweys dreams of being the next Sayid Maxamed Cabdulle Xasan, but he fails to understand that no matter how hard he tries, no matter how patient he is to reach that day to head an Islamic Somali republic under his tutelage, he still is an ugly weasel that tries to come across as a wadaad. Passion driven by such sickening mentality is indeed khasaaro. belong to the same sort of qashin. Same clan you mean? General, Sky and Yoonis, Boys shaydaanka iska naara. Qabiil is not going to get you far walaahi and as nabiga said such a person (a qabiilist) is not part of us. I know at the very least the first two will cry and wail but the truth hurts . Bye now. The rubbish is making me sick :rolleyes: .

My dear sis THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Yes you are right. CY is worse then the little vermins that came obout in the 90s and for some like this man, in the last five years or so. What was I thinking, thank-you for correcting me . What I find most interesting in all of this is how you (a CY supporter) have the audacity to speak about the wrongs of other wrongdoers. He admits his wrongs himself for God-sake. And here you are running after Cabdiqaasim and Xasan Dahir, when even if true (who knows you or those sickening media outlets probably made that up too) are just allegations. CY is proven to be guilty. And anyway, I still don’t see what the big deal is. Qaad (a drug mind you) is rampant in our community. All the administrations of Somalia take advantage of that so I don’t see what the big deal is :rolleyes: . Sure this report is damning, but really the situation our country is in and who our leader is, I don’t see why this deserves the hype you want it to. I can guarantee you that if CY had access to the fertile lands of the South he too would of have done at the very least just what this man is being accused of, too bad he didn’t and that is why you are crying about it . Now move on boy and stop wailing about Cabdiqaasim and Xasan Dahir in every post. You want us to believe that you don’t work along tribal lines, but check this out, just in this thread, Cabdiqaasim- Bad Xasan Dahir- Bad Indha Cadde- Bad CY- Saint. Hmm interesting. I wonder what the first three have in common, and hmmm i wonder what you have in common with the last. Even i, the novice of this section can connect the dots . Back it up or keep quite. The allegations about Inda Cade and his group have been made by the UN monitoring group. What backs up your above claims Haruun? His own confession not good enough for you? :rolleyes:

What exactly are you attempting to convey with that irrelevant to the subject of discussion copy and paste? Irrelevant? I’m sure you can read, comprehend and connect the dots sister. You deny that Mr. Goth is mocking Islam; I was proving to you why he is mocking Islam. "Growing the beard, trimming the moustache, removing armpit hair, washing the knuckles, these are insignificant things!" Established mockery! into adorning the black cloak of ignorance. This is not mockery you say? Cajiib walaahi. 2) Implying that Bashir Goth is an apostate. Then let me say that Fatwas or religious addicts should only be issued by clerics with religious authority. Followers cannot label other muslims as apostates. I’m sure you know that if you label another Muslim a disbeliever, and if they are not, then you become a disbeliever. So if Rahima/Alleubaahne has logically deducted that B.G is an apostate and he is indeed not, then Rahima/Alle-u-baahne is. Still, the outcome is in your favour I would say, so wager on!! That twisted I could read it as you calling me a disbeliever, of course that twisted which is what you have done to my post. I never stated that Mr. Goth is a disbeliever, all I was doing was highlighting why his words are words of disbelief. Like I said big difference between acts of kufr and being a kaffir . Bottom line Athena, this whole discussion is quite sad. It seems like you are incapable of disagreeing and having a discussion without misconstruing things and insulting (and i don't mean that as a swipe either, just noticed). So far I have yet to insult you once, for I thought we had how do I put it, progressed , but alas it is disappointing. That aside this all comes down to you not allowing for other opinions. You want to ram what you believe to be right (or strongest opinion with no proof other than ‘I think’) down everyone’s throats. Learn to accept differences of opinion in matters where even the scholars disagree, and at the very least if you are going to argue in future come with proof .

I’m a cheerleader because I expressed my opinion? Hmm, I like that train of thought. Bakar, allow me to ask you, what constitutes as cheerleading in your books? People agreeing on the truth (he is bouncing around doing nothing, I object and then nothing, khasaro), is that cheerleading?

What has boat people got to do with the illegal looting of farms Not sure, but that is how I came to join this discussion, otherwise it has no meaning. If the man is guilty (let alone an accusation) then so what? He just joins the long line of loser leaders. You make it sound like it is a new phenomenon :rolleyes: . Dont look far people Inda WAS a creation of "dr" Abdiqasin Salad xasan. I know Xoogsade, Rahima, Horn and Juma know who saint Abdiqasin is you... The whole network in lower Shabbele up to Kismayu is based on drugs, looted property, charcoal industry which ahs left the poor people of the region in a very bad situation. They have the arrogance to label themselves "Islamic" Courts.. War iska aamuus pls, you of all people have no right talking. You support CY for God-sake, and not because he is president. For the vermin’s in Somali politics, there are ranks of verminity (yes me own word ), you support the quarterback (amongst those which are alive) so please let it rest. The hypocrisy is seeping out of your seams :rolleyes: . And really, what are you looking for anyway? People to respond to nonsense. I personally (I don’t know about others) don’t care if he is or is not a drug lord. If it was up to me, I’d get rid of all of them anyway (including this man), for no reason other then them doing nutta for 15 years.

Where in the Quran does it say muslim women must wear the Hijab? “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.†(Quran 24:31). “O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.†(Quran 33:59) I can see where this is heading. You are going to dispute that the word ‘hijab’ is not literally mentioned or something along those lines. This is just word, basically women have to cover that which is prescribed in the Quran and further explained in the Sunnah, some of which you do not believe in so I’m not sure how we can have a productive discussion if we don’t even agree on the sources. (what man would prefer Hijab over see-through dirac? C'mon now rahima) over the Hijab. I'm stumped!!! I mean for your wife sure, but for the average Muslimah walking down the street, why would you want her to be uncovered? Do you just want to ogle? You should be enjoying the good brother and forbidding the evil. And anyway, you should be lowering your gaze first of all . stems NOT from objection of the Hijab per se but from the attitude I sense from you and other Hijah-for-muslimahs promoters which is that the Hijab is UNIVERSAL dress code for muslim women. Or should be. Of course it should be. I cannot claim to be Muslim and then decide to turn a blind eye to what my religion says. Allah has stated in the Quran that we women should cover our ornaments and the prophet s.c.w has explained that further by saying that: Abu Dawood narrates that `Aishah (RAA) said: "Asmaa' the daughter of Abu Bakr (RAA) came to see the Messenger of Allah (SAAWS) wearing a thin dress; so Allah's Messenger (SAAWS) turned away from her and said: O Asmaa', once a woman reaches the age of menstruation, no part of her body should be seen but this-and he pointed to his face and hands. (just one example) The Hijab is not universal fig for muslims across the world. Never has been and there is every reason to think it will never be. The question really is: will YOU accept a muslim woman's choice of dress if it was up to you? What has or will be is not the issue (people have stolen and will continue to steal, does that make it right?), rather what should be (Muslims should observe hijab, men and women, and people should not steal). We Muslim women should be covered as that stated by Rasuallah. I for example (and may Allah forgive me, we shouldn’t really air our sins) do not cover as I should, but that is my failing. I’m not going to try and change this religion to suite my purposes. I know I am wrong. As for accepting, there is not anything I can do about it, it is her choice but it is still wrong. Now for force, who is talking about force? No one is forcing anyone else to cover for we do not have an Islamic government. Were there one, then yes it could be made law and it would mean that all citizens (both men and women) would have to abide by the hijaab laws imposed. Here in Australia, it is illegal to streak for example, or to smoke in certain public places. These are laws for them and laws, which must be respected by the citizens. In an Islamic country governed by the Shariica, it is a right to have the xijaab made compulsory. You know socod badne, with all due respect I don’t think I want to head down this trek, like I said I can see where it’s going. You obviously don’t believe that the hijaab is waajib, and even if were to discuss that you’ll probably just say you don’t believe in any hadith I might give you. I can’t discuss why you should be fined without your P’s up if you believe that the road laws in Australia are whole load of crock . This is the reason why I avoided and steered clear of your argument about the hadiths. But if you want to know more about the hijab issue (without getting into a debate about it ), visit: http://islamic-world.net/sister/hijab_in_quran.htm

Raxiima, abaayo, surely you dont me! and i thought we were friends ... People can be friends and still disagree no? I’ve quoted that exchange, please tell me right there, is that not taking a swipe at xijaab from Socod_Badne (who’ll I get to)? No to tents, yes to dirac. Who's with me? and then you: the ASM - vice presidency is yours dude, my warmest congratulations the honarable Socod_badne of Ottawa ... we need more members people.. high-level organisational posts are going like hot cakes How can you then as a Muslim, laugh along with him and make a joke of it? :confused: You should at least correct the brother and tell him, even if he meant it as a joke, that such matters do not come under such categories. You cannot call the xijaab a tent; this is what the gaalo use as cay. It is very disheartening to see fellow Muslims use the same language. The longer and the more covering the xijaab, the better. This is not to say that this makes a sister more pious, but we are talking about it in the context of doing its job. A sister who wears the Somali style Jilbaab is more covered that for example one who wears the cabaya/xijaab style and she more covered then one who is in a tight skirt/top/xijaab style and so forth and so on. Let me re-iterate, this does not make one more pious. As for the understanding and having patience, I totally agree. But that in this issue is a matter of what is better, not right and wrong. And yes you are right, it would be nice if such discussions were not reduced to exchanges like these. Personally i hate them.

The one where we hold the holy texts with one hand and go against its teachings in the other. Right and wrong is not relative in Islam. Very true, but I have yet to see any establishment of wrong (for certain) thus far. I’ve said many many times, establish that one opinion is stronger then the other and then we can take steps. If you cannot do so then you have no right saying that someone else is wrong. 1562. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: A drunkard was brought to the Prophet (PBUH). He said, "Give him a beating.'' Then some beat him with their hands, some with their shoes, and some with (a folded) piece of cloth. When he left, someone said to him: "May Allah disgrace you!'' The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Do not help Satan overcome him by uttering such words.'' [Al-Bukhari]. Commentary: We learn from this Hadith that imprecation against a sinner helps Satan because he is avowed to disgrace and humiliate Muslims before Allah. When a Muslim curses another Muslim and imprecates for his humiliation and disgrace, he in fact tries to accomplish the mission of Satan because in doing so Satan will have achieved his objective. Therefore, one should not curse a fellow Muslim even if he or she is a sinner. In fact, one should pray to Allah for his or her guidance. A drunkard (who simply just has a weakness, not one who is legitimizing the sin) and an individual who mocks Allahs religion cannot be seen on the same plane Athena. One (the former) does not contain with it the danger of kufr unlike the other (the latter). The distinction is very clear. It seems like you are making mockery of Islam as a light matter, I mean comparing it to drinking alcohol (which is a major sin, but in comparison fairs as very small) just shows that. No need to hurl insults at one another, just read below on the ruling of one who mocks Islam and what mockery actually is. _________________________________________ Mockery of the Religion is Disbelief Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan Source: Things that Nullify One's Islam (p.41-46) [1] [ In the Name of Allah, the All-Merciful... ] The sixth one: Whoever mocks anything fromthe Religion of the Messenger or Allah'sreward or punishment has disbelieved. [2] The sixth kind of apostasy is mockery of what Allah sent down or of anything that the Messenger came with, even things from the Sunnahs (of the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) or recommended things like siwaak, trimming the moustache, removing armpit hair, or trimming the nails. If a person makes mockery of any of these things he becomes a disbeliever. The evidence for this is found in the Statement of Allah the Most High: "And if you were to ask them, they would say: 'Surely we were only jesting and playing.' Say: 'Was it Allah, His Verses, or His Messenger you were mocking? Make no mistake, verily you have disbelieved after your belief.' " [3] So then the one who mocks anything that the Messenger came with, be it obligatory or recommended, he is an apostate from the Religion of Islam. So then what do you think about the one who says, "Growing the beard, trimming the moustache, removing armpit hair, washing the knuckles, these are insignificant things!" This is exactly what is meant by mockery of the Religion of Allah, the Mighty and Majestic. When they say this thing, and if they know (it is from the Religion), then they have apostated, since this is belittling what the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) came with. It is obligatory to have great reverence for the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and to respect it. Even if a person falls into some kind of opposition (to the Sunnah) due to his desires, then surely he still must respect the way of the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam), respect his Sunnahs, and respect the narrations. He must not say, "These are insignificant things." The proof is the Statement of Allah the Most High:"Say: 'Was it Allah, His Verses, or His Messengeryou were mocking? Make no mistake, verilyyou have disbelieved after your belief.' " [4] The event that led to the revelation of this Verse was what happened with a group of people who were with the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) during the Battle of Tabook. They were Muslims. During a gathering they began to say, "We have not seen the likes these reciters of ours, the most untruthful tongues, the greediest stomachs, the most cowardly in the face of the enemy…" They were referring to the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and his Companions. Amongst them was a young man from the Companions who became enraged at this speech and went to convey what this group was saying to the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam). He found that the revelation had preceded him (in informing the Messenger). So then the group came apologizing once they heard that the Messenger had become aware of what happened in their gathering. One of them was hanging on to the front harness of the Prophet's she-camel while he (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) was riding it, saying, "O Messenger of Allah! We were just talking loosely to help pass the time during the journey! We did not intend mockery, rather we only intended to joke." The Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) would not even look at him, he only recited upon him this Verse: "And if you were to ask them, they would say: 'Surely we were only jesting and playing.' Say: 'Was it Allah, His Verses, or His Messenger you were mocking? Make no mistake, verily you have disbelieved after your belief.' " [3] Notice His Statement, "Verily you have disbelieved after your belief." This proves that before they had uttered words (of mockery) they were Muslims, and that when they uttered them they apostated from Islam, even though they were saying that it was a joke. This is because the affairs of the Religion are not to be played with, so Allah had declared them to be disbelievers after their faith. We ask Allah for safety. [4] This is also proof that whoever insults Allah, His Messenger, His Book, anything from the Quran, or anything from the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) apostates from Islam, even if he was joking. [5] Where are those who say that he does not apostate unless he intends it in his heart? They say, "If a person insulted Allah, the Messenger, or the Quran, we do not pass a judgement upon based merely on his utterance or his action." Where do they get these statements and these specifications from? Allah has judged them with apostasy while they were saying: "We were jesting and playing." [3] They were believers in Allah and His Messenger, people of tawheed, however, once they uttered those words, Allah said: "Verily you have disbelieved after your belief." [3] And He did not say, "If you had truly believed that." We ask Allah for safety. So it is obligatory that things are put in their proper places and that we do not add things, take them away, or specify the texts from our own selves. Allah did not ask about what they believed, nor did He mention that they believed (what they said), rather He ruled on them with apostasy after having faith: "Verily you have disbelieved after your belief." [3] He based this (ruling) on a statement. He based this (ruling) on mockery, and He did not specify it with these specifications. If a person speaks with a word of disbelief without being forced into it, then he is judged with apostasy. However, if he was forced [6], then he has not apostated in this case. This article was taken from BAKKAHnet (www.bakkah.net) FOOTNOTES [1] From the TROID publication: Things that Nullify One's Islam by Shaykh al-Islam Muhammad ibn 'Abdil-Wahhaab, explained by Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan. Click here for information about ordering the book. [2] The words in the box are from Shaykh al-Islam Muhammad ibn 'Abdil-Wahhaab, and what follows is Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan's explanation. [3] A translation of the meaning of Soorah at-Tawbah (9):65-66 [4] Shaykh Saalih was asked about the least amount of mockery that would cause a person to be considered an apostate. He replied, "There is no least amount. A small amount is too much, and the refuge is with Allah. Anything that is considered mockery or ridicule is disbelief. Even as they (the scholars) say: A gesture with one's lip, hand, or eye can be considered mockery, even if he has not spoken." Refer to Question #27 in Appendix I: Questions and Answers (of the published version). [5] Refer to Question #30 in Appendix I: Questions and Answers (of the published version). [6] Shaykh Saalih states, "The ruling on coercion differs depending on the situation. Something could be considered coercion in one affair and not coercion in another. So it differs depending on the case. However, the coercion that is a valid excuse is that which there was no escape from, there was no way for the person to escape from being killed, beaten or threatened other than saying what was requested from him, like saying a statement of disbelief for example." Refer to Question #18 in Appendix I: Questions and Answers (of the published version). http://www.bakkah.net/articles/mocking-Islam-disbelief.htm

This is so cute . Conscious fathers meeting- rare in our community.

Shariifka has proven to be an opportunistic, attention-seeking, selfish individual. Let him trapse around the world, having his five minutes of fame (of lack of) will come back to hunt him, I dare say! I don't believe he correctly understood the description of his position. If he is the Speaker of the Parliament, why does he seem to think he is Somalia's at-large International Ambassador? I think it is obvious that my knowledge on Somali politics is extremely limited nor do I read anything outside of SOL (which I always believe to be BS anyway), but this (the speaker prancing around the world unnecessarily) has been something I’ve being wondering about. What is wrong with these leaders anyway; blood sucking vermins, opportunists or just simple lazy asses. This is so sad walaahi.

War gabadha ka dabo har! Haven't you and Sky baited her enough It’s called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder . Sadly it is the result of previous encounters. They still cannot get over it; somehow my name keeps popping up in places I couldn’t care any less about, but glad to be of such service (at least i know my posts are been read, can't say the same for all though ) Rahima, Xoogsade and Juma all tried their best to divert from the theme of this thread which was Mr Inda Cade's alleged involvement in the drugs trade. You have to care to respond dear. I couldn’t care any less about this man or any of the other god-forsaken leaders. If he is a drug dealer then CY is at the very least just as bad (watch the reply to this HA ,lool). Not everyone has an attachment to these men. If I was up to me, I’d ‘get rid’ of some and ask all the others to leave politics or they will be dealt with the same fate. Also, I would never reply seriously to this topic were it not for Sky caring to remember me so kindly . You have to believe that the Somali media is credible to take notice of any of it. Yes you are absolutely right, there is also another boat full with Puntlanders. Happy now. No, still Somali (not to mention Muslims) dear. There is no point for both of us to discuss if Puntlanders are trafficked as well or not. The facts are out there. If you start to ignore facts, because they hurt you. Than my darling you are suffering from cuqdad qabiil. Something I diagnosed from you a while ago. It’s Ramadaan Sky, fear Allah . Who are you trying to kid. The exchange was simple, someone posted the tragedy, everyone made duca, you came in with the crap its southerners (like it matters) and of course had to throw in a good-will duca, I replied with ‘yeah because southern Somalia is so bad’ and bam waad xanaaqday . Bulls eye I say-looks like I got it. Listen mate, so far no one has mentioned qabiil, you have done so twice. We were discussing your attempt to degrade southerners and southern Somalia. Cuqdad, Cuqdad he says. Waryaa I’ve never experienced anything leading to cuqdad, but the point still remains and stop diverting away from it by making baseless and really worthless claims :rolleyes: . One article, one incident and all of a sudden it is fact for all cases. Reassess that thinking will you (not here but in your mind, i'm done with this exchange). In the end, you (as in Sky) posted that it was southerners (even if it was who gives, innocent people died) in order to take the attention away from folks thinking that it would be PLs. You were corrected and couldn’t handle it (obviously, just look at it here months later ). That is how that thread will always be remembered, now let it die.

^You don’t expect me to believe that do you . Hoppers my dear is in Melbourne. I’m pretty sure you’re dying out there in Melton, that 40 min away small masjid been in Deer Park . I’m probably barking up the wrong tree, but you cannot fool me with Hoppers (a place I know very well mind you ).

Yes. But I don’t see how this applies to Mr.Goth. He was dead serious in his article so there was no element of jocularity there. Secondly, you don’t know if he has repented. Infact, you don’t know anything about him, because what you call ‘mocking the diin’ is actually directed at certain self-appointed wadaado in S/land who impose diin in the most inappropriate ways. He is entitled to his opinion of these people. This article is more political as Mr.Goth dabbles in that than religion Rahima (of course you’d know this more if you were an avid reader of his website awdalnews.com). Our women, whose beauty has allured the eyes of every traveler, have been brainwashed by the prophets of Wahhabism into adorning the black cloak of ignorance. have to mention here that when I step out into the street in the morning I see groups of girls waiting for school buses; all of them Arabs except for two Somali girls. All the Arab girls of all nationalities look bubbly, tossing their beautiful uncovered hairs and showing off their latest hairstyles. Even those with head covers threw it lightly on the shoulders or barely on the back of the head. They even sometime waved hello for me or for my son. The two Somali girls, however, were fully shrouded with black from head to toe. One could barely see their eyes and they even wore black heavy socks on their feet. Their unique Somali features wrapped into a shapeless form, their shy and modest smiles buried and a kind of heavy footed, reptile shuffling replacing their elegant, Somali-only, rolling hip-walk. The black veil and the black skin also make a very sad and unwelcome combination, while the contrast between a black veil and a fair skin at least mitigates the gloomy impact for Arab women. Just these two examples are clear indications of making fun of (which can be done so seriously) Islam. Is this not belittling the hijab Athena? This is mocking and ridiculing of the hijab. If he wants to have a go at certain individuals then that is his business, but what has this got to with ‘wadaado’? The hijab is a ruling from Allah, the same Lord he claims to believe in, so why such statements/paragraphs? This is not an opinion of people Athena; this is an opinion of the rulings of the Almighty. Also, what has this got to with politics? Look at the last paragraph for example, what do the choices of young girls who choose to follow the words of their Lord have to do with politics? As for the repentance, as I have asked you Athena if you know that he has retracted these statements then please let us know. The ‘evildoer’ part has a condition which is unrepentant mind you, so if he has repented then it goes without say he would not be classified as such. Also, one does do research you know. Bottom line sister, it matters not whether or this article is political in intent, it does not matter if he has issues with certain ‘wadaado’, in fact non of that matters because he is mocking this religion, and that my dear is a very grave sin. Thirdly, if you know about Somali Society before the 90ties, you would realize that most people held a similar view to Mr.Goth regarding the hijab. There is nothing in his article that’s actually not true of pre-war Somalia. That was how people understood Islam and dare I saw, they were not ‘evildoers’ but people who misunderstood diinta. It’s called ignorance; this was the downfall of our forefathers, however I ask you, do you believe this to be a feasible excuse from Mr. Goth? You underestimate the knowledge of this man Athena (whom I have researched since my claim of not knowing of him ). A person who knows for example that Allah has stated in the Quran that we women adore hijab and then at the same time calls it a "black cloak of ignorance" is not to be excused with ignorance. You see our forefathers did not know better, Mr. Goth sees the developments and re-awakening of Islam yet chooses to fight it. There is a big difference between the likes of this man and misfortunate forefathers who did not have access to the proper Islam. This is like a much worse scale of for example a woman living in baadiyaha of Somalia and who believes that for example FGM is correct because it is the culture and she does not know better Islamically because she would be lucky if she could read the Fatiha, and then another women who lives in the west/city, knows about all the medical dangers of the practice and the fact that it is xaraam because she attends the casharo at the masjid, yet she still calls for it. The first women can perhaps be excused because of ignorance, she does not know better, but what about the second? Rahima, we have had a similar debate before, and I’m sure you’d agree with me that its gullible to accept everything posted under the guise of Islam online. The only thing we can go by here is where there is clear proof to the claim. There is clear proof to my claim that its not permissible from your own fatwa. There is none to your claim and its naïve to continue saying ‘these scholars’ (whose names I do not recognize) said so n therefore its true. Where is the proof? What I find hard to understand is how you could be willing to accept part of the fatwa yet choose to neglect the other. Athena, the fatwa clearly states that certain scholars do deem it permissible- this mind you is the same fatwa whose decision you are using as support. Without even knowing their names and the complete proof, we know that credible scholars (who have made this fatwa) have explained that such an opinion exists. You either call the whole fatwa garbage or accept it all. All I was saying all along was, you either prove that one opinion is stronger than another or let others decide that which they see fit because perhaps what they learnt is not the same as that which you learnt. Furthermore, I never claimed that one was stronger than another (you however are inadvertently doing so without any proof), but rather was showing you why the mocking of Islam at the very least makes one an evildoer (which like I said is an unrepentant sinner). It goes without say that if one is repentant then he/she does not come under that category, simple deduction I thought would be understood. You’re right that I initially based my objection on my opinion. But I was raised a Muslim and I like to think I know the right from the wrong on such simple issues and my judgments on such issues come from my background. And maybe you are right. Perhaps that opinion is strongest, but really walaal ‘I think’ does not hold much ground when it comes to Islam. You either bring forth proof or state it as your opinion without Islamic backing. I hope I've answered all your Q's with no cay You have and that I thank-you for . But what has happened is what I thought all along, we disagree on the classification of some parts of the piece. I think that he is mocking Islam, you do not. As for the Sky issue, it was not what he said (although of course I didn’t like it) but rather the profanity of it. I have actually exercised moderating three times, once I was asked by an individual to edit a post of theirs, another what to edit a profane exchange between two individuals and the third Sky’s post. I have no right editing Alle-ubaahnes post because I don’t think he should be cursing this man (and I don't personally). I need to have reasons for it and basically because I think would not hold much ground. This goes the same for those who are mocking the hijab right here in this thread. I hate it that they do so, but it is their opinion and really have no reason in terms of my responsbilities on SOL. Anyway enjoy the rest of Ramadan.

Aww I bet they look sooooooooooooo cute! It beats a giraffe with a pot belly trust me(!) No no no, not cute. I was afraid that they’d get so big my sight would become hindered . Thank-god its back to normal though. Next time Quruxleey, we will be prepared to tackle Somalia :cool: . Rokko, I give up. Closer then Melton but outside of Melbourne? :confused: Man, Melton is on the border of Melbourne, how much closer can you lot get?

Be careful bro, just say those victims are Puntlanders and give some folks a good night's rest. When I stated that the people being dumped in the ocean are from Southern Somalia - which is a fact - I was attacked from different flanks by Castro and Rahima, telling me that I was giving a bad picture of Southern Somalis. Of course they meant the tribe, for I'm more Southern than most nomads in here can dream of. Not many people can say that their family have lived in the city of Mogadishu since the 30s. You really are traumatized by that topic aren’t you sky . Dude, what you were trying to do was obvious for all to see. You see, you did not want for all us to think that the people fleeing were from PL considering that the port was Bosaaso because then that would lead to the natural thinking that things must be pretty bad in PL for people to be fleeing. You see, no one was thinking that, everyone was more worried about the lost lives, but you turned the topic all ugly by mentioning that which was of no use and then trying to pass it off as fact. Even if that boat was full of southerners, I’m sure there is another boat full of PLs. Somalis are all the same in their bid to leave the country . Bottom line, even if the whole boat was full of southerners and Bengalis, it does not matter and it is that which you missed. Now let it rest will you. It's over, over ya hear.

Load of bullocks :mad: . I demand a re-assessment. Vancouver has nothing on Melbourne I tell ya :rolleyes: , nothing.

Athena, 1.What do you call an individual who makes fun of Allah’s rulings and does not repent? An unrepenting sinner perhaps? 2.Do you agree that at least in this piece Mr Goth is making fun of and belittling rulings of Allah? 3.Do you agree that the definition of an evildoer is a sinner who does not repent? 4.Finally, if you agree that Mr Goth is making fun of and belittling rulings of Allah (and he has not retracted them) and that makes an individual a sinner who does not repent, then on what grounds is the label ‘evildoer’ wrong? Please answer the above four questions if you would. As for the fatwa, like I’ve said many times before, these scholars have expounded on that which they thought as strongest, but as you can see they have also mentioned other opinions (and if they thought of them to be garbage they would not of have mentioned them). That said I did not say that one was more correct than the other (c’mon Athena, how many times do I have to say that, don’t twist my words ina adeer), all I said was that there are differing opinions and for some of you to stop attacking Alle-ubaahne on the premise that it is against Islam. You do not know that for certain. Object based on what you believe to be correct in your opinion (outside of Islamic jurisdiction), but not Islam. [2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. I don’t know how this fits in with the understanding between you two that its acceptable to insult and curse dad gaaloo wax kuu dhimin. Everything that I read and learn seems to go against your understanding of it. Laakiin there for hope, I'm still learning I’m not exactly sure what your implying here, but you’re not saying that this verse applies to the Christians and Jews of today are you? After the advent of Rasuallah Athena, there is no religion besides Islam which is accepted by Allah. This verse is referring to the Jews and Christians who followed their respective prophets and scriptures before Prophet Muhammad s.c.w, not the ones of today. Wax kuu dhiman is cay Athena, just thought I’d highlight since it is Ramadan . In the end, any fatwa is a sorry excuse for commonsense and humane decency. We really need not have gone this far. This is another sticking point, just like your “Besides, there is only one judge and thats Allah swt and no amount of 'scholarly fatwa' can make any1 an 'apostate' or 'evildoer' if they say they are muslim.†(which I hope I have sufficiently explained the error of that), this also objects to what Allah has told us in the Quran, that when we do not know to go to the scholars of Islam. Also, commonsense is obviously not the same for all, you see I see that an individual who makes fun of the injunctions of my Lord as not deserving of turning a blind eye under the guise of ‘human decency’ -that is my take on commonsense. I cannot do so for an individual who blatantly over and over insults rulings of my religion. Alle-ubaahane, Understood . I was under the impression that you were calling him an apostate as opposed to what you have stated. Some of us here are objecting to the evildoer status, when in actuality the scholars have stated that to mock this religion is to border on Kufr (it is an act of kufr).

Beautiful, mahadsanid .

connect the dots Rahima Too far apart Rokko . Somali community outside of Melbourne? You can’t be serious? Melton is the only possibility that comes to mind if it were possible. I’ve heard (just heard) that there is a small Somali community dying out there . As for 8 black, the transformation is magnificent and no particular credit to ubax or the boys that run downstairs , rather young Somali ‘reformed’ men from all over Melbourne. Kudos to them mashallah, they’ve worked hard.

Who's to say which of those opinions holds the most weight? That is a point to be found by one who can . This was a discussion Bee and therefore it is open for anyone to prove which of those opinions is strongest. I already stated that I was not aware of the stronger opinion, but nonetheless there was a pro-opinion (which obviously would be based on the Q & S) and was just bringing that to light. We should be looking at all the possibilities before jumping on the bandwagon which we perceive to be right based on our own personal opinions of the matter. The Fatwa is also clearly speaking about 'Kufars'. No it also refers to evildoers which mind you are still Muslims. There is a clear distinction in the fatwa between evildoers and kuffaar. In matters of religion we must always walk on the cautious side. If something isn't so pleasant, keep away from it. Cursing may not be unIslamic, but it is far from pleasant when it is aimed at Non-Muslims let alone at Muslims. Even our Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) was careful about cursing, in case he cursed someone who didn't deserve it. Are we so arrogant that we can forgo such caution here? I think I was making that exact point, however (as was also my point) we need to be on the side of caution when making judgments on actions such as those of Alle-ubaahane (the same principle should be applied across the board). There is a difference between saying that it (the habaar not the apostate claim) is better he does not and deeming it unislamic/haram. I hope that this point is coming through clear, as this is my whole point really. I don’t have to personally like something, but when it comes to matters of Islam, what I like or don’t like don’t matter. Rahima, that's just it, isnt it, dear? None of us here are in a position to dispute that Bashir Goth is a Muslim, yet Alle-Ubaahne can assume that he is an apostate? Forget the curse...that's nothing compared to assuming a Muslim is an apostate, without evidence. Where's is this evidence? Or are we all allowed to say anything we want without the need to back up our accusations? I’m not willing to take the chance of making such a judgment on a person who the scholars have not made a decision on, be it Mr Goth or any other individual. However, I was stating it as I understood from Alle-ubaahanes post (not that I was supporting his claim on the mans faith- I was hoping that that was obvious). As for the legitimacy and the need for evidence, looks like Alle-ubaahane has provided evidence for his stance. Insufficient, sufficient, proof enough, not proof enough, that is a matter for those disagreeing on the matter to discuss. As far as I am concerned it is an extremely complex matter to dissect, one that I’m no way near qualified (and probably never will be) to get into. I don’t agree with Alle-ubaahanes branding of the man (i.e. that he is an apostate) simply because it is not for laymen/women to throw around such branding, but I agree that he is belittling Islamic principles and therefore is wallowing in evil. Really, it is. But it becomes a moot point, when it is immediately followed by the judgement that he is an evildoer. Most of the people here disagreed with his article...but who unanimously agreed that he is an 'evil-doer'? Who can judge that but Allah? The scholars of Islam, for Allah has stated in His holy book the Quran that when we do not know to ask the people of knowledge. There are characteristics of such people and therefore it can easily be ascertained whether or not Mr. Goth is an evildoer. Belittling and making fun of Islamic principles makes one an evildoer. Stealing makes one a thief, therefore is Mr. Goth was to steal he would be a thief no? I'm not sure if you two girls disagree or not, but reading this article, Mr. Goth in my opinion was most definitely making fun of and belittling Islamic principles, for example those of the beard and the proper required xijaab. From denouncing his diin to implying he is an Evildoer. Oh Rahima… all this in the midst of ‘I don’t know anything about him’ and ‘If he says that he is Muslim, then certainly none of us here is in a position to dispute that’. And what unanimity are you referring to? Who are these ‘scholars’ or ‘learned people’ who explicitly stated Bashir Goth is an evildoer? How did they come to that conclusion? Firstly Athena, one can be a Muslim and an evildoer at the same time. Evildoer is not synonymous with gaalnimo . Like I said above, there is a clear distinction in the fatwa between evildoer and kaffir. Secondly, any individual who makes fun or belittles the rulings of Allah (be it the beard or the xijaab) is at the very least an evildoer. That Athena is the lightest stance. Bashir Goth without even looking into his other works has done so in this piece (and I’m sure that is clear for all to read). Besides, there is only one judge and thats Allah swt and no amount of 'scholarly fatwa' can make any1 an 'apostate' or 'evildoer' if they say they are muslim. It is on this point that we disagree. You see, whereas I consider people like Salman Rushdie apostates (even though he claims to be Muslim) because it was a unanimous decision amongst the scholars, you going by the above (do correct me if I’m wrong) hold the opinion that no amount of ‘scholarly fatwa’ can make him an ‘apostate’ or ‘evildoer’. Now I’m not making the comparison between these two men, but rather highlighting why I disagree with what you have stated above. The prophet s.c.w said "My Ummah will not unite upon error." [Reported by at-Tirmidhee and Haakim - Sahih], therefore when they unanimously agree that Salman Rushdie is not a Muslim irrespective of what he says then so it is for we must trust in the words of Rasuallah. Therefore, the learned people can deem an individual to be an apostate based on evidence from the Q & S. Who are these ‘scholars’ or ‘learned people’ who explicitly stated Bashir Goth is an evildoer? How did they come to that conclusion? I really don’t see how or where Alle-u-baahne has support or ‘legitimate’ backup except in you. I never said “scholars’ or ‘learned people’ stated that Bashir Goth was anything let along evildoer. What I stated was that the scholars of Islam have said for example that someone who jests at Islamic principles is an evildoer at the very least. Mind you, evildoer means a person who sins without repenting. Going by that Athena, we know that Mr. Goth is making fun of Islamic principles in this piece and as far as I’m aware he is not repenting (if he has retracted these statements please let us know). That also said, since we can easily establish the ‘evildoer’ status of this man (all depends on whether or not you agree that he is making fun and belittling), the fatwa is very clear (it is not what I stated): 2 – Cursing a particular kaafir or evildoer concerning whom there is no text stating that they are cursed – such as wine-drinkers, those who offer sacrifices to anything other than Allaah, the one who curses his parents, those who introduce innovations in religion, and so on. “The scholars differed as to whether it is permissible to curse these people, and there are three points of view: (i) That it is not permissible under any circumstances (ii) That it is permissible in the case of a kaafir but not of a (Muslim) evildoer (iii) That it is permissible in all cases.†As i see it, none of us in a position to call the man an apostate, but the evildoer status is dependant on what you believe of his piece, is he making fun of Islamic principles or not?