^ What I find amusing however Xiin is that so many are protesting day in day out about the evils of this man (and thereby attacking the credibility of the courts), when they salute to warlords themselves irrespective of the title they now carry. This man (and I’m assuming guilt here), like all others, has one of two choices, to repent or to be dealt with, so far it seems that he is supporting the courts and since the movement is in its infancy, I believe there are far more pressing matters, namely stabilising Mogadishu itself. It seems that some are hell bent on jumping the gun in the hope that the image of the courts will be tarnished. All things take time and inshallah justice in every sense will prevail.

^ And I forgot to add another sub, the woman is consumed by too much qabiil hate anyway . One party system is never in the interest of the people. One group/party ruling always leads to dictatorship. So, I will disagree and say that it is not in the Somalias interest to have one group in the former capital. Just in case things lead they way they seem to be leading, the government needs to deal with someone else. Put simply, division (not as much as before where every neighborhood was controled by thug) in xamar between illegitmate groups is good for Somalia. One group leading huh, that sounds like the BS nonsense of the just defeated moron. The courts are an accumulation of people and tribes, people who want to see a peaceful and united city. Calling them dictators or wanting division amongst people who are satisfied with the progress is nonsense. I don’t get it though, why aren’t people satisfied with knowing that the residents of Xamar support the courts and their achievements? I think that that speaks volumes in itself. Me, You and Maf Kees that important ay?

Rahima about peace, unity and love, which is precursor to which, well its a chicken and egg story. You are right with your way of looking at and so am I, so we are stuck on that. It’s nothing like the chicken and egg story, I’m sorry mate but on this you are most definitely wrong . You cant have unity between people who hate and kill each other, you just can’t. You need to treat the illness till then all should remain in quarantine. Once they have been cured they should be let out onto the green pastures of unity, otherwise they’ll poison the land. Clan btw is not alone to SL, so who the bloody hell cares if that is the reason they want to secede. We kill based on clan, how about that.

^I thought that that was obvious? :confused: (as in who i mean by supporters). Nobody can possibly be that stoupid. Actually they can be , have you read the accusation hurled at me? Just flip a page back.

Ironically the top brass who run the biz didn't lose that much money. That’s not true. The owners have lost a lot. The people who have not lost much however are those who set out for payback. Don’t ask Baashi, can’t get into, but it’s true and from an immediate source . Somali business can get very dirty and since we don’t have any way of holding perpetrators accountable, they will get off free.

But the last sentence about finishing off everybody who supports him was ridiculous. I’m sorry, but I don’t see much difference between him and those who are like him in that they hold the same views, participate in the same war with all their guns and kill the innocent. What the bloody hell is the difference between him and them other than that he is their leader? If you stand on the war line with such warlords and are a grown man, expect to be dealt the same fate. These men have a choice, and they have chosen to support the wicked. Am I confused here or am I the only one who does not see the difference between him and those that fight his cause willingly? By his supporters i am not refering to tribe, since that would include me, but rather those that fight with him willingly- i.e. his filthy army. Xarago, Cuqdad, xaasidnimo . If anything, to want this man gone and out of the picture is for one to love their own people. I’ll let you think that part over, considering that this man is as somaalida would put my ‘adeer’ more than the ‘fake wadaad’ as you put it . I get where you are going with this, laakiin don't embarrass yourself (in fact we go as close as sub-sub clan)- but woman, not everybody is busy aligning themselves based on qabiil. Some of us are more civilised .

The hate and the killings are mostly being done by paid moor-yaan and jirri who work for blood thirsty warlords or equally incompetent politicians. The people do not hate each other. The people just want to live. BS, I used to think that until I opened my eyes to reality. It’s only the poor and destitute (namely some back home) who want to live, but they are powerless. The rest of Somalis, namely the majority with any sort of wealth and those in the diaspora are in a general sense hating warlord supporters. Let’s get real, Somalis do hate one another, no one cares for brotherhood save the very few who Allah has saved from the illness. The rest are the first to send money when their tribe is at war, and refuse to help out the suffering of other areas/regions- that my brother is clear hate. Are you going to deny that this happens all the freakin' time? Peace is not a precursor for unity nor is love. Unity is a precursor to peace and love. That is so warped mate . How the bloody hell are you going to have unity of people who hate and kill each other :confused: ? The prophet instilled in his followers a sense of brotherhood (to the point that they would give up part of their wealth for their brother), then sort to unite them under the one leadership. I ask you how can we know who wants who; if all we do is tell ourselves that region hates that region, If we divide them and never look at what unites them? I figure that fighting for independence is a darn good indication wouldn’t you say? Likewise fighting along clan/region lines is another darn good indication. Why don’t you join us in our unity, peace and love? Because you are deluded . You want unity but you’re going about it the wrong way. Once you realise that the problem is bigger than unity and SL, perhaps we can discuss. Till then I feel like you and others are on a futile mission that many before you took and failed.

There are precursors to unity, namely peace, love and want for unity (people have to want unity, you cannot force them because you think it's the right thing). You need those before you can fight for unity. Fight for those first, that’s my take on it. Like I said Somaalida kill and hate each other, preaching unity to them at this point is like telling a gaal to pray- it's useless. I'm not on a war path me, perhaps i misunderstood your humour.

^Never hate the woman, hate him always :mad: . Even if she went after him, he should have loyalty. So personally i have no issues with the minyaro .

You are against unity thats all. You know when one has nothing worthy to argue but the same regurgitated stuff, they tend to make baseless accusations as you have so done in this discussion thus far. Allow me to refresh your memory on my view of unity: Unity is the ideal, but since we can’t, let secession take place. Hopefully you will be able to discriminate between the two. Ideal vs. reality. I realise that English may not be the first language of many of our people, laakiin this is very very clear. If you somehow deduce from this that I am against unity, then your problems surpass that which I choose to delve into. That said, you cannot tell someone to love when you hate, you cannot tell someone to clean when you do not (you as in Somalia). i.e. you cannot try to ram down the throats of others a concept which you do not have yourself. Somalia is full of hate, clan and disunity. Don’t worry yourself with SL, work on eliminating that hate, clannism and disunity (lol, obviously you have the energy). The prophet worked on his own people, reer Makka first, then to the folks of surrounding towns/cities including Ta’if and Madinah, then off to the rest of the world. In that is a very good lesson me. Work on your own house first before preaching to others. Also learn how to attract others, putting them down is not the way to go. N.B. I am not comparing fellow Muslims to the quraish, just providing an example of how one should achieve the propagating of the right. about that rethorical stuff, my sense of humor is not well developed so be careful MATE! I gotta love the cyber world , people making threats like they matter. To ease your mind laakiin, mate is a nice word, likewise bloody down here is not cay .

^ I believe in it, it's just i find it hard to discuss with someone who writes: I am not Somalia. Can you not see the difference? That is not the bloody point now is it? (it's a rhetorical mate)

^ Don't worry about it. Have a nice day.

You, as in Somalia.

They will change their own mind when they see an alternative. Provide the alternative then talk about changing minds. What’s the point of calling to unity when you yourself do not have it?

^ Believe you me, I have no qualms about what I wrote, I do hope that him and all those like him (warlords and their supporters) either give up their warmongering ways and stop the useless killings, or be dealt the blow they dealt to so many innocent people. I believe in an eye for an eye if you refuse to stop. How i pray that we could be rid of all of them.

You're talking about regions and politics when you're dealing with sick hearts and minds. The political aspects/wrongs are just manifestations of this- that is which you should be concerned with at this moment. There is no point protesting about unity when others don't share the vision because clan is more important- do you not see this point? This problem is subject to all the mini states, not just one. Change should first be with the hearts and minds of the people, then you move onto politics and the running of the country. If you don't have the attention/agreement of the hearts and minds, you won't get far in the political arena, hence why we are always inclined to having bloodsuckers as leaders.

Didi Kong and me, The two of you need to get real. This image of a unified Somalia where clan is of little relevance is long dead. Yeah I too was once deluded, thankfully I’ve come to my senses hence no longer am I disappointed by the sad state of our politics- I’ve accepted it as a part of life. We all know that the mini-states are built on clans, but what can we do other than lump it? Sit around and fight a revolution? Would be wonderful, only thing is a revolution requires support and that my friends is something which is lacking. I’m not rewarding people me, I just chose to have a screw it kinda attitude. Anyway, I’m over this, we agree to disagree.

I hope they finish him off- I'A another one will bite the dust. Likewise the courts should finish off those who support him.

The problem is not letting others be, the problem is will the others let you be. Sland is claiming lands that do no belong to it. That is the issue that you have missed Rahima. Me, I have based my claim of your bias on the above (which you’ve been leading up to all this time). I mean even look at your location, Hargeysa Somalia. We are all biased in one or another, but on this subject where an individual such as yourself is against any form of secession in any way- even in Hargeysa, then really your stance is slanted all the way to one side (hence biased on disputed areas). Your die-hard pro-unity under any circumstance attitude is what I based my view on- your not even flexible on the idea like Soo Maal and many others, it has nothing to do with qabiil. I did not mention that, nor was I thinking that and really I think it is immature that you keep making assumptions about my beliefs/views. It’s disgusting and I resent it. Didi Kong, What I do is not of your concern. The akhwaan girl nonesense is getting pretty tiresome, if you have a chip on your shoulder deal with it for i care not to read about it. I don’t care for why any group of Somalis secede, but they can do so as far as I’m concerned. It is my opinion. SL, is not my house anymore. Sure I care for them as Muslims, the rest however is. As for the two boys, Suldaanka with his views is respectful to me even though we may disagree, unfortunately I cannot say that for my housemate. Secondly I am disgusted more that my housemate is a hater than my neighbour. That is perhaps my bias (and we all have them, I don’t know why that is such a big deal- I’ve been called biased many many times). I find it more disgusting when Somalis from Somalia participate in clan/region hating against one another, then when a SL attacks Somalia. You can’t fight off this disease so easily laakiin as I see it, Somalis from Somalia have more of a common goal right now than they do with SL, so to bicker and hate in such a manner is to impede the goal. This is the exact reason why we still don’t have a functioning government, because the hate they have amongst and for one another is greater than the goal. And another point, at least SL have some love, we’ve surpassed despise and hate. I’m all for SL, likewise what PL has done is excellent, I’m extremely happy that the courts have taken over Mogadishu and as a concept I support the TFG. They don’t have to be contradicting, for ultimately I see all that as positives for Somalis in every region. My house however, is the one of those who have lost hope- I think we’re growing by the day.

The problem is not letting others be, the problem is will the others let you be. Sland is claiming lands that do no belong to it. That is the issue that you have missed Rahima. We have solved the main issue and when you see this issue we are done. Says you mate. You're beyond biased, so why should I take what you have to say as fact? I knew all along that this was point of disagreement . Garaad, Walaahi I mean this as absolutely not offence, but I believe you have a deficiency in understanding what i write. Now you telling me, certain regions are offenders and others are the victim as you arguing What? Have I played a game of offenders and victims? We need to be fair and avoid accusing only one side of the conflict What? What conflict? And who am I blaming? Or do you have something against specific regions and not want good for them. What? What regions? Why do you have to defend some regions more than others? You have to understand Somaliland is part of the conflict by invading Sool in order to unite former british colony of Somalia; Lord have mercy. Has the discussion even covered this? NO!!!! I believe the best solution is first everyone should clean his room, before we talk about cleaning entire house because the house contains 18 rooms, because no one can clean entire house alone. True, but people can move out of that house if they want, therefore they don't have to worry about the cleanliness of that house. Garaad, please for the sake of my sanity, ignore my posts . Clearly we aren’t even on the same page. Are they implying that we are less religious? Are they saying that we are led astray and we need to be brought back to the right path? absurd as it may be, that is how it sounds like. Not less, but Somali politics in general is devoid of Islam. SL and the whole concept of it is no different . Don’t take offence Suldaanka, it’s a blanket attitude of all Somalis.

Secondly you say that UNITY is the IDEAL. I agree with you. So if unity is the ideal why not work for the ideal, why not achieve that ideal? why settle for a reality that is bad. Should we give up on the IDEAL? Ah, now we’re on the same page . My disagreement with many of you is the way in which you guys are trying to reach the ideal. Demonising SL and putting them down will not achieve it- that only creates cuqdad and greater alienation. For, as I see it, the best way to achieve the ideal is to clean up your own home and when it becomes a home you are proud of, come to the table of unity, for then you know you have done all that you can. That my friend was the crux of my original point, which so many of you missed. We need to get passed this Neanderthal mentality that so many Somalis have, that is to put down the 'enemy', downplay their success and not want good for them. Great example maal mahaan in this forum, the cheerleaders who seem hell bent on being anti-courts for ultimately they hate to see good for a region controlled by the 'enemy' or are hell bent on keeping good old adeer at the helm irrespective of what may be good for the people. We don't even have our priorities straight, till we do, forget others and focus on nourishing Somalia.

Rahima the problem here is the vagueness of your arguments. No, the problem is that you seem to have a deficiency in understanding what I write. You agree with secession, you agree with unity. You really are a simpleton aren't you me? Unity is the ideal, but since we can’t, let secession take place. Hopefully you will be able to discriminate between the two. Ideal vs. reality. Ideally as a Muslim I would like to live under the rule of Khalifa. Reality- it isn’t happening; therefore I must support a government, which in many many ways is against that which was sanctioned by Allah, but at the very least there is hope of order. Does that then mean I am against the establishment of an Islamic state? Ponder that my friend You don't mind being occupied as long as Muslim occupies you. No I did not. I did not say occupy, damn it folks read, jeez. I said: Mate I was not speaking of Muslims occupying , I was referring to a Muslim nation claiming what Ethiopia is now- that they wish to see a peaceful Somalia. So what are you arguing for, what are you for and what are you against, if we Somalis are diseased ill minded why do you care so much. This whole discussion started because I am of the opinion that people need to get over SL and leave them alone, if you guys care so much for the nation, care about that which matters now for Somalia- SL is irrelevant. That said, the rest of the discussion is simply you lot not letting me hold an opinion. I’m getting attacked for my opinions, I’m being told to accept a particular opinion and uphold the views of certain individuals and even more importantly im being told that I have views/thoughts that I don’t :rolleyes: . I’m just in a mode of self-defence here. My not-caring for of Somalia stems from disgust, not because I relish in the concept of not caring. No one really cares for the people or the good of the people. One group runs away (it’s a selfish outlet, but to survive you have to be), and the others eat each other not wanting any good for each other. What is there to have hope for or care about? I honestly do believe that Somalis cannot live with one another, with all tribes living in harmony UNLESS they clean their hearts. Till they do, they should all live separately and if that means declaring independence, then so be it, c’est la vie. And ofcourse you say Awdal is pro-Somaliland, like the people there have any choice, do you think that people overthere can voice their opinion wiuthout being accused of treason? and maybe you forgot the war of 'liberation' in Borame. How we love to delude ourselves. Once upon a time, there was a struggle in Boorama, now the tide has changed in favour of SL, go and check it out for yourself. Believe you me, there is no one holding a gun to peoples heads. The extent of the support sets aside any claims of force. Somaliland's declaration had nothing to do with it and the two are not connected in any shape or form. Thanks for the education Suldaanka, but as you can see, it matters not to me what the reason. If people wanna go, heck I’ll pack their bags for them. That said though, when all is fine, to divide Muslims even more is wrong- we all as Muslims know that. However, it is not for any of us to force others.

Water fights are a great pass time down here, isn't that right Rahimah Right indeed, don't remind me of the good old days, nostalgia always kicks in.

^What is up with all the twisting :rolleyes: . Mate I was not speaking of Muslims occupying , I was referring to a Muslim nation claiming what Ethiopia is now- that they wish to see a peaceful Somalia. People tend to nab onto one point and then twist it to meet an irrelevant point. What you write is of absolute no relevance to the topic- you do realise that don’t you? :confused: Rahima, first of all you are recognizing the people of the North West of Somalia as a different people, people who are not Somalis. I am? That’s interesting me, you know that of me how so? Since it is not something I believe nor have stated. Anyway thanks me , but I don’t need a history lesson, what SL does is their business and really if the whole of Somalia with all their illnesses wants to break up into families, I could not give a rat’s a’ss so long as the killings cease and peace is achieved. Soo Maal, You seem like a relatively intelligent person, so allow me to ask, what are you on about with this fairness stuff? All I’m saying is that I do not recognise the land to belong to one tribe over another, simply because many people claim it. You disagree, but of course you would, you are one of those who dispute over the land. Who decides which land belongs to which tribe anyway? Every tribe will claim that land Y is theirs, I am not one to determine, and hence it is disputed (as far as I’m concerned). What is it that you seem to want of me in terms of fairness? To say that Sool and Sanaag are part of PL and not SL? Is that it? Is that the fairness you refer to? I’m sorry to disappoint you my brother, but I’m not one to determine. Well its you who started this whole issue of statistics, and then you couldn't provide the Source ! I’ve seen it for myself, I have been to Awdal. Dude everywhere you go there is SL flag in your face, if that is not support I fail to understand what is. Other stats I don’t care for, coz I know everyone throws them around to suit their agenda. Ok I will repeat myself again, If all Somali people choose division over unity, I will continue supporting the unity of all Somali people peacefully, at the same time, I am against force for that reason although I don’t like to see any Somali region seceding, however I support any region to secede if the majority of the people from that particular region within Somalia support secession agenda. I am with my brothers whatever they want Kinda sounds familiar . I could swear that I’ve been arguing the same point, over and over. I thought you said you had a pride? Why you wish for to make north central part of the mess, or are you suggesting north central, Puntland, and Hiiraan to fellow the Somaliland example? And forget about the less peaceful regions. PL and Hiraan have chosen to be part of the mess by choosing to stay with Somalia. They unlike SL, cannot sit back and say well my region is peaceful and prospering so to heck with the rest. Unfortunately for them, with the union comes the responsibility of cleaning the rest. And I don’t suggest anything, but I wouldn’t be bothered too much by it, it would just be icing on the decadent cake of the Horn . You saying my region is semi-clean, I don’t know why you can just say your region has a relative peace I was talking about a house and rooms my dear . You can’t exactly say that your room is relatively peaceful, it doesn’t fit the example. Be reasonable would ya, you’re even picking on language now. I cannot believe that the discussion has gone this low. Let's leave it at that boys.

Zu, i had a good chuckle the day i read that . Mac sonkor i thought, good on 'em .