^Disgusting not sad.

"Same old, Same old. Ethiopia attacking somalia again. Fighting Mad Mullahs again. World powers supporting her again. Other Somalis helping them again. Because they accuse the mullahs of being clanists again. Some things never change." Abu_Geeljire History has indeed repeated itself.

Val, Lucky you, a whole topic dedicated to showing you the way traitors celebrate .

Islam!

^Not disconnected rokko, it's just that many of the Somalis here are pro-ethiopia and this stickin' government, so of course no suprise that there isn't a protest- they're happy about it all. NGONGE, Get over it, the ashes are ours :rolleyes: .

^ It was stable for six months until this good for nothing government destabilized it. If they had not, it would continue to be stable, enjoy peace and no doubt prosper, laakiin this is something the warlords hate, so no suprise that they ruined our chance for peace.

^ As far as I’m concerned this wretched government can do no right. I was one of those willing to give them a chance laakiin after they employed the deadly services of gaalo (Ethiopia and America) I’m done. As for the discussion, I see the questions have yet to be answered. Not answered because the conclusion is well known.

MKA, I didn't ask you to glorify a blood-sucking kaafir inviting warlord turned president. What i asked you was to explain under what conditions can a leader be overthrown, how and by whom. Answer this and we shall continue.

^This guy writes rubbish, ignore him for i will. He supports munaafiqs and munaafiqnimo and yet he has the audacity to speak of this sect and that sect. Bloody amusing i tell ya.

Taako, Not their control but what they wanted was a nation under the rule of Allah, big difference between the two.

Rahima If you are accusing MK yoonis of supporting Abdullahi Yusuf for clannish sentiments, then you must be supporting Dahir Aweys because of clannish sentiments huh? See this is what happens when people write nonsense. Mr. Taako for future reference pay close attention to the going ons of this forum for if you had you’d know that if I was dishing out support along clan lines, I’d be on the side of the traitors. Unlike MKA and GD i don't follow my adeero to the pits of hell for i won't betray my religion so that they attain what they percieve to be glory. Bottom line don’t make a fool of yourself so iska aamu.

I hope that helped inshallah! No it didn't, he will always be remembered as the worst of the warlords for time and time again he has brought in Ethiopia to invade our country and kill the innocent (whilst president). That my friend is his legacy, and you support him for he is adeerka. That is the bottom line and really i'm sick of all this BS. Have a nice day :cool:

When we have millions of $ spent on the reconciliation of Somalis in Mbgathi which resulted in the election of Abdullahi as the TFG president, is it not wrong to discredit such leader and espouse a monolothic movement? I assume you meant to hint "the removable of a leader" as Sheikh Sharif, the self-nominated ruler of the erstwhile Islamists. If I remember correctly I don’t believe the courts were trying to remove CY but rather were trying to come to a middle ground with him in a way that would ensure his leadership but also serve the people of Somalia. It was he who refused to negotiate and instead used the aid of kufaar to invade Muslim people. It is at this point that he should be fought. My point, when Islam is the most widely practiced religion in Ethiopoia, how can we label them as Kufaars? Yes there are Kufaar elements but to label all as Kufaars is disingeneous and misleading. Besides, Ethiopia came to assist us and it is ready to pull its troops anytime. Why do you play cards that will topple over with a little huff? Dude, Ethiopia is ruled by the Christians, their leader is a kafiir (unless of course you want to argue that Meles is a Muslim) and it is he who is attacking Muslim people. What the population is matters not.

I shall not address the sister because it is not fair nor appriopriate for me to rub more salt to the sisters already open wounds! The sister is plighted by emotions! Sister, I shall be considerate towards you and make recovery wishes for you inshallah! Try to dismiss my point as you like, for at the end of the day we all know it’s true. Irrespective of what the scholars say about Hizb-u-tahrir or any other Muslim organisation, what they say about munaafiqs (the lot you support) are worse. I mean you do remember that hypocrites are the worst of people and will inhabit the lowest parts of the hell-fire. Now sleep on that, and like I told you look at your own behind- trust me, at this point in needs far more saving than hizb-u-tahrir .

MKA, Even with all their supposed faults Hizb-tahrir have done more for Islam then you and the crew you support, for unlike you and your buddies, they do not support kufaar killing Muslims. Therefore, no need to expose their faults, yours are worse, think of your own behind and repent from that.

Let me ask you Rahima have you looked at Abdullahi Yusuf's heart to confirm that he's a hypocrite? You write words of hypocrisy yourself mate, preaching to me about a man such as CY whose actions are well known to all, yet you criticise in unspeakable terms men who even if they achieved nothing, did not at least bring along kufaar to invade Muslims. That is my point, CY and co have at the very least commited not only acts of kufr but of hypocrisy. Anyhow, let’s not go around in circles. Answer a couple of questions to get things under way. 1.Does Islam allow for the removable of a leader? 2.If so, under what conditions and by whom. I pose these questions for in this thread of yours (in a bid to justify actions of hypocrisy by CY and co) not only are you misusing the point of Islam frowning upon rebellion against the leader but you are also trying to mask that this is not a blanket rule but rather that Islam does allow for the removable of a leader once certain conditions are met. Once we discuss the general viewpoint of Islam on the matter, we shall then go on to discuss the Somali situation and wether or not it was in fact a jihad and wether or not CY and co are to be removed for their actions of hypocrisy (if it won't cause more problems for the ummah).

Lancer, JZK, this is the point I’ve been making all along. MKA, Once again avoiding the issue here. I told you for arguments sake lets even accept that the courts are not what they claim to be but a group driven by their own motives which are not about Islam. That still does not change the point that CY and co are the catalysts for gaalo invading a Muslim. That without even looking at the courts highlights what these men are about. 'How did a qabiil based local Mogadishu clan courts system turn into a broad exclusive and representative body that can speak for the whole of Somalia'? You didn't answer that! I did, twice , you just don’t get it. I can’t do anymore for you mate. You've not brought any evidence but the usual ranting at saying 'They're not muslim rulers', 'Aiders of the Kufaar' and 'They're hypocrites'! Rants? You actually believe that to heighlight such important points is ranting. Like I said, you and I do not have the same caqiida, for I hold al-walaa’ wal-baraa’ as taught to us by Rasuallah very dearly and you, well it's clear what you think of that! Inshallaah then will we compare if Sheikh Cukaasha is on par with Sheikh Muhammed Naasiruddin Al-Albaani, Sheikh Al-Cuthaymiin, Sheikh Bin Baz and Sheikh Muqbil! You are so full of qabiil and hate walaahi, that I knew, but let me make something clear for the readers here. I used the names of 4 shuyuukh as opposed to others just in case qabiil infatuated folks such as MKA make accusations about their intentions (i.e. in that they support their clan). Out of this list however, I’ve also indicated that no doubt Shariif Cabdi Nuur is the most knowledgeable, but who does MKA choose to pick for comparison- yep the ‘enemy’, put it this way Xasan Dahir Aweys and Sh. Cukaasha share a clan lineage, whereas the others do not. The rest finish off the wretched 4.5 formula of our even more wretched government. I shall bring forth my evidence and then it will be for everyone with intellect to appreciate the things I said to be nothing but the hard truth! Go ahead mate, but lets set some ground rules, first of which is this is not about the courts so do not make it the point. The discussion here is Muslims aiding kufaar against Muslims, what is their status in Islam? does Islam permit it? And if it is a leader can the Muslims get rid of him if they are able to? I know you won’t stick to the real issue here, but if you do we’ll debate and we will see not only what Sh. Albani, Bin Baz and Cuthaimian and Muqbal have said on the matter but also Rasulallah and Allah swt Himself.

Castro, I don't have random thoughts, that's for the little people .

I love the way that this guy somehow believes that takfiiris are worse than hypocrites (which he supports). Hypocrites are even worse than kufaar, they are the lowest of mankind.

For me the religious discussion is over and I will not futher argue on the matter because everyone can see my record on the issue and make up their mind themselves but going forth and back will not bring anything contructive about! Good for what now becomes clear for any who had doubts is that at the end of the day it is jihad and our government are munaafiqiin for aiding the kufaar against MUSLIMS. When a Muslim land is attacked by kufaar immediately it becomes a defensive jihad as taught to us by Rasuallah. For a long time now MKA you and others like you have been hiding behind the supposed evilness of the ICU and really trying to avoid the main point here. Alxamdullilah it has now become clear, but I expect that you and those like you will continue to justify the invasion and munaafiqnimo of CY and co for at the end of the day his word seems more worthy of following than that of the best of mankind. The sister is talking emotions, you can see that from her abuse and rebuking of Puntland Scholars! Quote where I abused them, that is if you’re not a liar. I know you won't, so do the deduction. In islaam one can error or committ a sin but that will not take him out of the fold of Islaam but an aqaaid belief or ideology opposed to that of Islaam will take you out of the fold of Islaam! And your point is? I don’t think anyone has called your holly adeer a kaffir. He is an unjust ruler who refuses to rule by the book of Allah and sides with those Allah hates. Islam teaches us that this is an act of kufr (many scholars say you automatically leave the fold of islam mind you), but what is ijmaac is that if one continues to commit acts of kufr whilst justifying them and not repenting, one leaves the fold of Islam. Anyhow this isn’t even the point, the point is, Islam allows for the removal of an unjust leader if the Muslims are able to do so and even more importantly is the point of this discussion- when invaded by gaalo all must defend, those that believe in laa ilaaha ila Allah ofcourse, not munaafiqs. I suggest that you read up on Al-walaa’ wal-Baraa’- you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Also, I’d rather be in line with Xiin, at least he understands Al-walaa’ wal-Baraa’. In case you missed it, allow me to remind you: Victory comes from Allah and He has promised ultimate victory to Muslims (even if sinful) not kufaar and kufaar loving munaafiqiin. That is the promise that Allah has given. Don’t you forget that my good brother. Cheer for the kufaar and their lovers all you want. Try to demonise Muslims as much as you wish, for at the end of the day this is a war of Muslims against kufaar and hypocrites. You have chosen who you support and i have chosen who i support, laugh now, cheer now for it will be short lived inshallah.

^Because 'adeer' was not leading it.

^ That’s corny. Castro, what is a dirac but a fancy jawaan anyway? :eek: Blasphemy.

^Honestly I don’t feel that you are the type of person I can debate with, our differences are beyond belief, so let me highlight a few points and leave it at that: 'How did a qabiil based local Mogadishu clan courts system turn into a broad exclusive and representative body that can speak for the whole of Somalia'? Because this wretched good for nothing hypocritical supposed government of ours which is aiding the kufaar was not fulfilling its duties. Someone had to fill the vacuum, not perfect but a much better option. Remember the majority of Puntland clans and their Ulama weren't joining them! Sheikh Faarax Gacmey is the 'patron saint' of the righteous Ulama, who adhere to the true aqaaid you and me believe never joined the ICU, so didn't many but Fahad Khalaf did, a young 'sheikh' from the United Kingdom! I’m not interested in the views of one or two men who have less knowledge than the most knowledgeable of the Somalis, from Shariif Cabdi nuur, to Umal to Mustafa and cukaasha. I’d rather take the views of these men then the ones you have mentioned (never heard of them anyway). You can’t compare Shariif Cabdi Nuur to these men. PL Culima’ and their views are irrelevant in matters where Rasuallah has spoken. PL culimaa' are irrelevant in matters where the more knowledgeable have spoken. When a Muslim land is attacked by kufaar, it is the responsibility of every person of that land to defend their land. I don’t know which caqiida you follow laakiin this is not a matter for opinion. We needed a process sister and to purify ourselves but not to wage futile jihaads and revolutions because they will be crushed and the reason they're being crushed is because they don't follow the sunnah! Simple sister. I gotta love your rationale, so I suppose Rasuallah and the sahaba were crushed in Uhud because they didn’t follow the Sunnah? So defeat always comes because one disobeys Allah? I suppose that there is no way it could be test ay? Victory comes from Allah and He has promised ultimate victory to Muslims (even if sinful) not kufaar and kufaar loving munaafiqiin. That is the promise that Allah has given. Don’t you forget that my good brother. Cheer for the kufaar and their lovers all you want. Try to demonise Muslims as much as you wish, for at the end of the day this is a war of Muslims against kufaar and hypocrites. You have chosen who you support and i have chosen who i support, laugh now, cheer now for it will be short lived inshallah.

The ICU didn't rule Baidoa nor did they rule Puntland or Gedo for that instance so what is the defensive Jihaad you talking about? They were invited by other enteties who were not under the control of the Islamic courts! What these people don't get is that they think the ICU was in control of the whole country and all Somalis were in agreement with them there laid their error! Defending Somalia in a defensive jihad has nothing to do with the courts for they like the rest of us are MUSLIMS who are obligated to defend their land against the invasion of KUFAAR, invited or not matters not for to invite kufaar to fight your brothers is munaafiqnimo. That is the bottom line here. Even if one disagrees with the courts and questions their motives, you can never justify the invasion. It is not about what jurisdiction or control or whatever else you wish to label it, it is about Muslims having the right to defend their land against gaalo- very simple mate. Don't lie sister even Aweys said and confirmed the courts being predominantly from one clan and he said as the clans who join the local-based courts who have elevated themselves to become broad representatives of Somalia and other areas they did not control increase they shall be included and reflect its leadership! Don’t lie, don’t lie? Where have i lied, quote me. Have I ever claimed otherwise? There is nothing wrong with a clan establishing an entity to deal with the problems of their own clan as the courts had originally started out with. As their support base grew from people of all clans so did their control. This I’ve always said and I don’t see any shame in it for every Muslim should start advising their direct family first, extended family, clan and so forth- this is what Islam teaches us. As for the rest, I’d take your disagreements with the UIC seriously if I didn’t think you were tribally motivated. If memory serves me correctly you’ve often in the past expressed such sentiments, not necessarily against the courts but in a general sense. You for God sake support the likes of CY, the worst of them all (if we are agree that they’re all evil). He is the worst of the bloodsuckers and worse still commits acts of kufr on a daily basis, from refusing to rule by the book of Allah to inviting KUFAAR to invade his country and not to mention massacre his people and then claim that every nation (US) has a right to defend itself. Don’t talk to me about morality and right and wrong when you support such filth.