LoL @ Muraad...Is that why u were hiding behind Jamaal? Bless Originally posted by WILDCAT: Libaax , it was absolutely unforgiveable of Barwaaqo to tell you of my evil online identity before I had the pleasure of doing so myself. Ilaa hada doofarada yar xaal baan ka sugayaa ! Xaal aa? Wadh wadh! Waad sugi doontaa uun ilaa cirku soo dhaco. :rolleyes: Shujui... It's ur fault I'm getting all that abuse from WILDCAT...if only u had kept ur gob shut... :mad: :mad:

Raula, "Honestly, Iam confused about the whole somali-nice notion. Even though I didn't grow up in the country, I used to hear all this nice/good deeds/values about Somali people, but after the civil war, I seriously dont know what to believe. I mean, I have heard of some horrific, mind-jittering horrandeous tales that till now, have not yet settled in my mind." The savagery and destruction that occurs during wars have been well documented, and it is not something easily understandanble. Just as law and order, institutions and other forms of governance disintegrate, so does people's humanity. There really is no excusing what happened in Somalia and every other part of the world where there has been civil strife. The important thing is when there's peace, it is a different story. Acts that occur during wars, cannot happen during peace, because there are mechanisms in place. Because Somalia went thru a war does not mean that the people and culture have lost their value/good deeds and whatever else you used to hear about. Granted, there have been a lot of changes, but there hasn't been enough time to conclude whether the changes have been good or bad or both for Somalis. Am I making sense? Bottom line...doesn't hurt to appreciate what we have every so often.

OP, I understand where you are coming from. Every culture does have its good and bad points, however, when it comes to the Somali culture, all you ever hear about is the bad parts. Logically, it can't all be doom and gloom always..there are great things about it too. Reading about what's happenning to women in other parts of the world just made me realise that we are a lot better off than most. Similarly, all Somali men are not to blame for what happened in Somalia in the past. The distinction should be made.

^^lol^^...sounds like they just wanted jariyado. Unreal Heart, Language proficiency doesn't have much to do with someone's intellect.

From the replies, I can see a lot of you are confused. Having read over the posts again, I can see my comments and the articles don't mesh. My apologies. I've got a nasty bout of flu, so please bear with me while I clear a few things up. First, lets look at 'honour killings' in more depth. My choice of articles (quite unintentionally) seems to imply that such killings are culturally confined to Pakistan and India only. They are not, I just didn't have time to do a more thorough search. As Gediid pointed out honour killings occur in most of the Asia, Middle East and even in Europe. What I find most disturbing is that although culture is blamed, most of the countries and societies that condone and encourage these type of killings are Muslim. There lies the paradox. Individual cultures and Islam...which one is more powerful? Seems pretty obvious when you look at such cases. In my book, murder is murder, no matter which language it is said in or where it is done. It is also never acceptable...except when it comes to women. There's nothing funny about how worthless female lives are in some parts of the world. The thinking seems to be "A small problem with a woman? Simple solution...kill her". Lefty and Opinionated... Personally, I can't look at things and then dismiss them as the problems of 'other' cultures easily. For one, I feel for those women, be they Indian, Pakistani or Arab. They didn't choose which culture they were born into, did they? For another, most of the women affected are Muslims. We are also Muslims, but we don't have such problems. Although we have a patriachal (and quite chauvinistic) society, honour killings aren't condoned by our culture. Therefore, we are quite lucky in that way. "but i disagree with the notion that in the nomad culture that some women do not face brutal actions from thier husbands! it has happened in usa and still happening in everywhere from dc to mn. have u heard of the lady who shot her boy friend in dc and then killed herself because she was scorned! what about the mn mall incident where the brother cut his girl friends throat with a knife while she was at work. this one really caused shock waves through the nomad community all over the world. so, my bit her is this, crime knows no color, religion or ethincity! it can happen anywhere any time. so as nomads, we too are human and prone to shamefull actions. may allah protect us all. " Hacker, I agree with you there. I wasn't implying that there isn't violence against women in our community. Crime, violence, rape and all other nasty manner of things happen. The point I was trying to make was that none of these are seen as 'justified' or 'legitimate' in our society. It's seen as quite shameful actually, which is why its always swept under the carpet. Finally, the Somali men issue... Well, stating the obvious here... but I do kno that there are both good and bad men in our community. However, if we look around ourselves and observe, it becomes clear that we find it much easier to point out their short-comings rather than to praise their good points. I just realised that in proportion to the rest of the world, they are not too bad. Plus they worship the ground we walk on (however much they may protest). What else do we want? Raula, Darling, I'll have to come back and address ur points later. Gotta get some painkillers...I have a frigging migraine.

LoL @ yous lot! Shaqsii...the match-making mama! Hehehehe Watch out dawaco...Shujui, the ex-talib/wife-hunter, is on the prowl! He might look all sweet and innocent but I bet he's as dangerous as a bird of prey! LoL...maybe I shouldn't have revealed how cute Muj is...I can see the xalimo mercenaries sharpening their claws already...yur yur! Flying, Maadan maqlin kibirka waa lagu kufaa? am gonna follow juxa and withdraw my invitation...ungrateful so and so. :mad: "Barwaaqo, i knew you had eyes for cuteness ,,,,,,,,, You only failed to mention how adorable shujui was, and ofcourse jamaal with his smooth talks!" Dawaco...those two are famous already. Don't want to give em bigger heads... "i will try my best next time..." Rookie... LoL...looking forward to it. Hope juxa proves helpful in that regard.

^^lol^^....no problem sis. Happens sometimes. :cool:

Good points juxa and co. Buubto...well said sis. I agree wit you on everything. Will come back soon and write something useful I'A.

'Honour killing' casts medieval shadow over India Special report: India and Pakistan Patralekha Chatterjee in New Delhi Monday November 20, 2000 The Guardian A scuffle breaks out among photographers outside the central bureau of investigation headquarters in Delhi. A rotund woman in her 50s in a flowing white robe, a dagger slung across her shoulders and her head covered as religiously ordained, steps out of a white car with tinted windows. Flowerpots are smashed as television crews and snappers jostle for a glimpse of Bibi Jagir Kaur. But she remains unruffled, a confident half-smile flitting across her lips. Ms Kaur is under pressure to quit as head of the shiromani gurdwara prabandhak committee (SGPC), which controls key Sikh shrines across India. She is the first woman to hold the post. Earlier this month Ms Kaur was charged with the murder of Harpreet, her pregnant 19-year-old daughter. The SGPC chief has been freed on police bail. Last year in Begowal, a village in Punjab, India's richest state, Harpreet married 21-year-old Kamaljeet Singh in secret. Ms Kaur did not approve - Mr Singh was poor and had cut his hair, against Sikh practise. In April this year Harpreet died in mysterious circumstances while staying in a relative's house at her mother's behest. She had been led to believe that her family was prepared to accept Mr Singh and would formally organise a wedding ceremony. Harpreet was cremated and her ashes disposed of the same day, breaking Sikh tradition. Her family claimed there had been no marriage between Mr Singh and Harpreet and that the latter had died of food poisoning. Less than 24 hours after the cremation, Mr Singh contacted the police and produced photographs of the wedding ceremony, which had been attended by his parents at Begowal. He claimed Ms Kaur was using her political influence to suppress and destroy evidence. He also sought protection for himself and his family. The Indian media describe the case as an "honour killing". But Ms Kaur's supporters claim that she is a victim of internal feuds within the Sikh political establishment. Across the border, in Pakistan, "honour killings" are rampant. Scores of women are killed every year for allegedly bringing shame on their husband or family. Women's deaths are explained away on "the flimsiest of grounds", according to Amnesty International. But Punjab on both sides of the border shares the same feudal ethos. "Prosperity has not has the slightest effect on patriarchy in Punjab," says Veena Kumari, a women's rights activist and lawyer . A petition before the Punjab state human rights commission by lawyer Ranjan Lakhanpal, based in the Punjabi capital, Chandigarh, triggered the murder inquiry. He said: "This is the most famous, but certainly not the first, honour killing in Punjab. "In rural Punjab, a girl wanting to marry a boy of her choice against parental wishes runs the risk of being killed especially if the boy is from another caste, religion, income bracket or community. In the last five years I have dealt with four such cases. None have led to convictions because such cases are almost impossible to prove. All traces of the dead body are spirited away." For a country trying to position itself as a software superpower and a key player in the big league this century, the Harpreet murder case is a painful reminder that digital India must cope with medieval India. --------------------- Justice with a vengeance While Pakistan tries to reinvent itself as a progressive and moderate country, it is struggling to get to grips with some of its most ancient - and brutal - tribal traditions, writes Rory McCarthy Friday July 26, 2002 Guardian Unlimited Later today a court in the town of Dera Ghazi Khan in central Pakistan will begin to hear the extraordinary story of how a tribal council ordered four men to rape a young woman in a brutal punishment. Local landlords, government officials and policemen stood by as the rape was carried out. It was a just decision, they said to themselves, because her 11-year-old brother was having a relationship with a woman from a higher caste. The Pakistani authorities only intervened after accounts of the stunning ruling began to fill local newspapers. Human rights officials say dozens of similar tribal decisions pass unnoticed every year. Frequently the rule of law appears to count for little. Yet Pakistan is not on the surface an anarchic state. It is not in the grip of rival warlords like its neighbour Afghanistan. For the past three years Pakistan has been ruled by the tightly-controlling military. Many people welcomed General Pervez Musharraf when he seized power in a coup because they believed he would at the very least enforce the law. Pakistan's armed forces are the eighth largest in the world and the state lavishes millions of pounds on their upkeep every year. As a result Pakistan has a considerable nuclear armoury, a vast army which swallows up at least a quarter of the state's annual budget and a huge intelligence network based around at least seven separate spy agencies. However, despite this apparent strength the official legal and judicial systems frequently lose out to brutal and bigoted tribal traditions. In another case this week four convicted murderers who were sentenced to hang agreed to sell their young daughters to their victims' relatives to escape the death sentence. Two girls aged 14 and 15 were already married to men aged 55 and 77 before the authorities intervened. Police broke up a third wedding in the village in which an 18-year-old girl was being married to a man aged 80. Two more girls, aged three and five, were also being lined up for marriage. Local landlords and government officials sanctioned the deal, which was to end a five-decade family feud, without a second thought. Much of the problem lies with the continued poor status of women in this male-dominated culture. One of Gen Musharraf's first promises after the coup was to enforce the law that honour killing, a tribal tradition which sanctions the killing of women who are deemed to have slighted family honour, will be treated as murder. But his words have made little difference to the appalling statistics of brutality against women. "Women continue to be seen as possessions of men, as something that can be just given away, like cattle or gold," said Kamila Hyat, joint director of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. These cases and the dozens more like them that slip pass unnoticed every year also show how fragile is the rule of law in Pakistan. Jirga justice, the power of tribal councils to impose their own punishments, appears to be gathering strength while the power of the judiciary appears to be weakening. "The growing uncertainty about protection of law and the failure of the justice system to deliver are clearly important factors," the respected Dawn newspaper said in an editorial today. This vacuum is being increasingly filled by traditional systems and institutions."

I read an article in the Evening Standard yesterday which made me sit up and take notice. It was about the disappearance and suspected 'honour' killing of a young Sikh Mother about five years ago. I couldn't find that specific article on the Newspaper's website, but I was able to find several news items about the issue. I think that sometimes (well, ok...most times) we take our men for granted, and more often than not we carp, condemn and criticise them over the littlest thing, but we rarely acknowledge how good (and harmless ) they are to us when compared with other cultures. Having read some of the following articles, I can't help but feel lucky to have been born Somali, because whatever other problems there maybe, there's no doubting that the Somali woman is held in the highest regard within her culture and country. As a female, I have nothing to fear from Somali men. I know no matter what I get upto, no one will want to end my life for it (however shameful)...not my father, and definitely not any of my other male relatives. Some of you might think that, not being killed for a decision to leave home, marry a non-Somali or divorce your husband, should be a given, i.e. your human right, but there are millions of women across the world who don't have such basic rights or the security and peace of mind we have as Somali women wherever we may be. Maybe we should count our blessings more often. Sorry if I went on too long, but it was something I was thinking about all last night. ------------------------- Riddle of the mother who vanished Tracy McVeigh Sunday July 22, 2001 The Observer Surjit Athwal had made a life-changing decision. At 26, the British customs officer had decided to take her two young children and leave her Middlesex home and the arranged marriage that had made her so miserable. It was a brave step but one that may have cost her life. In December 1998 she went to India for a family wedding, leaving her children at home with her husband in Hayes. Surjit, then 26, never came back. The return portion of her air ticket remained unused and no one has seen her since. Her credit card was last used when she bought a bottle of perfume on the plane. Her family, who live in Coventry, are facing an agonising wait as the Indian authorities try to identify several bodies thrown up by recent floods in the area, while in the UK the police are offering a £10,0000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone responsible for Surjit's disappearance. It is the second unusual step for the British police in what is still being treated as a missing-person inquiry. The first was when two officers were sent to India to interview the villagers who last saw the slim-built young mother. The overwhelming feeling is that Surjit is dead. Her impending divorce and Western dress would not have made this hard-working mother popular among villagers steeped in the traditional culture of Punjab. It's a region known for so-called 'honour killings' of wives - where a friend or relative of a deserted husband will sometimes take it upon themselves to take murderous revenge. Surjit's husband divorced her in her absence and is now bringing up the two children, aged three and 11, in Hayes. He has denied any involvement in Surjit's disappearance and also believes she has run away. It is not a theory accepted by Jagdeesh Singh, Surjit's brother, or the rest of her family who have kept up a tireless campaign to find out what befell her. Her father, Mohinder Pal Singh, has been out to India to search for his daughter while her mother has been made ill by despair. 'There have been anonymous letters and phone calls from men telling us Surjit has been murdered and her body dumped in a river,' said Singh. 'The last two years have been agony, torturous, for all of us.' Nor is the runaway theory accepted by Detective Sergeant Ian Mill who is in charge of the investigation into Surjit's disappearance. 'The family have accepted that she is dead and there is nothing we have to suggest otherwise,' he said. 'We are now awaiting the identification of the bodies which the Indian authorities apparently have but we would still appeal for anyone who has any information about what has happened to Surjit to come forward.' Amnesty International may also consider taking up Surjit's case. 'It does bear some of the hallmarks of an "honour killing" of the kind that Amnesty International has been investigating and reporting for many years,' said a spokeswoman. '"Honour killings" occur where a family or society's honour is seen to be closely bound up in a woman's conduct. Where a woman is perceived to have brought shame or dishonour on her family - for having an affair or for simply wishing to divorce her husband, or indeed just as a trumped-up excuse for getting rid of her - then a family member or friend may decide to put the woman to death, supposedly in "defence of their honour". 'Suspected "honour killings" and other human rights abuses must be fully investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice. It is vital that all UK citizens receive support from all our state institutions, in particular the Foreign Office.' -------------------

Oh Gooody! Psycho is back! I would have preferred Curly Sue, but I guess Psycho sue will have to do for now. Missed ya.

LST, Walaalkiis, ur welcome. Twas my pleasure. LoL @ "barwaaqo's garbasaar"! Yeah, bright-coloured head garments are my thing. Shujui, Yes, I'm blaming the National Rail...and WILDCAT. If it wasn't for them I would have been on time. "I would also like to say thx to the funny waiter whom's night work i made harder by spilling that glass of pineapple all over myself and the floor and R_O_Y not to mention the Baaris" Rookie... Thanx a lot for u know what. Appreciated it. STHLM Lady + flying still... Of course u'll get a welcome I'A. How can you not when ur my girls? And last but not least, it was lovely seeing all the nomads: Libaax (EDIT...can't forget the guest of honour!) Jamaal-11 Sophist Muraad Shaqsii Shujui Mujaahid WildCat7 Juxa Suban Miskin Rookie_Of_the_Year ...especially Mujahid (the cutest wadaad ever, mansha'Allah) and juxa who's an absolute darling!

Originally posted by African: Barwaaqo I love those jewellery, can u plz tell me where I can get them from? African, Lovely jewellery, innit? They're off the back of a lorry. I can get u a good deal...depending on how much u're willing to spend.

Dawaco, Lovely meeting you too suga. And yeah, we shuld definitely have a girls night out soon.

Muxajabah, I'm sorry, but you can't come on this forum and insult half of the Somali population. It is simply not done. Discuss your problems with ur future sister-in-law by all means, but please stop aflagaadada.

Originally posted by Northerner: lol,is'nt greenwich and woolwich in yr neck of the woods Barwaaqo?lol Waryaa...wat is u implying? Donkeys meat isn't a dish I'm familiar with, ok? Blasted cheek! :mad:

Hibo, Missed u too suga. What's this...ur NOT married? Hmmm...I was also under the impression that u...but neva mind, I'll just keep the set of diric and dahab I was gonna send u as a wedding present.

LoL @ Gediid..."hope for the best but expect the worst"...good plan! I don't really know by how much but the Somali body image has definitely changed. Personally, I don't have too many problems with my weight but I don't know how long that will last...They say the older you get, the harder it is to shift the extra pounds.

LooooL @ Wife of Today!

^^ Welcome back OG girl. Had a nice vacation?

Originally posted by dawaco: shujui...saw u on the bbc shakin it on the nothin hill carnaval bro. ARRIBA.........nice shiny glittery kastuumo LoooooL! Cant believe I missed that! Lovely poem Dawaco...I only wish my younger sisters would appreciate me the way you appreciate juxa.

Welcome.

Originally posted by juxa: moti, i told barwaaqo to hate u less,,,,,though she does not hate u at all, she will try for yr sake. I don't know where he got the idea that I hate him.... :rolleyes: OG Moti, Welcome back bro. And just because we fight...a lot...doesn't mean I hate you. Okky Juxa, Lovely meeting u and sweet dawaco too...

Well, what can you expect from a third-rate tabloid? :rolleyes: If you guys feel strongly about the article, you should email the newspaper.

Most overated virtue? The obsession with light complexions. I'm not sure how being light-skinned has become synonymous with being beautiful. :confused: