Juxa;865444 wrote: Chimera i agree it is quite sad, you dont expect your own inuu ku liido. Abu equality is indeed a mine field but why should i seek to be equal? ilaahba nagama dhigin equal, but when it comes to aduun-matters i refuse to accept that women are not capable of doing great jobs. oh well, i shont hijack the topic You should, considering what the country went through, nobody or anything was off-limits, from infrastructure, to civilians to our animal kingdoms. A lot of the backwards stuff you read on this forum is a byproduct of the war where everything negative about our culture, traditions and religion acquired extremist tendencies. If you read the link I provided a post earlier you would see Somali women working in the fields, the factories, the communication sector, in education, in the military, and in politics, there wasn't a single position in the country that they were excluded from.

Beautiful Somalia

Curiousity killed the Farah.

^The above comments are saddening, it wasn't always this bad and it most definitely won't be so in the future. We regressed on multiple fronts including womens rights, but the current old men are dying or will be dead in a decade or two. Most young men don't share those views.

Aaliyyah;865195 wrote: A person wanting to have a child that looks like him/her has no correlation with intelligence. It is simply personal preference. And interracial marriages usually work if the two people in question are not cultured. So I do agree with him that there might be clashes if people have different cultural preferences. Black people come from all walks of life and they have different cultures and enjoy different ethnic music. So to avoid cultural clashes one would have to stick with their ethnicity. *Burp" I'm so sorry dear Aaliyah, I had slight case of ''LOL-I-don't-care-gestion''

Blackflash;865167 wrote: You're assuming that I discarded the government 'data' because of bias. Had you actually read my paid attention you would know that the entire premise of my argument was the veracity of the government backed numbers. You also referred to my Kibera reference as being a red herring when in fact it's counter to the notion that the usage of numbers in the media isn't a authentication of said numbers. The Kenya National Bureau of Statistics publishes it's census and survey reports as can be seen here: Kenyan Population and Housing Census 2009 . It details the methodology and extent of the survey. The document you linked to is not survey and does not provide any backing for it's data. That report wouldn't even qualify for any master's program, let alone the millions in foreign aid it's requesting. I posted my personal criticisms of the estimates and you managed find bias where there is none. You claimed that they most likely took it 'straight from their azz' and this is pretty damning in my opinion if you don't have a bias against the researching team in question. They based their estimate on independent research and those of multiple groups, all of which are mentioned in the plan itself, some directly and some not; from the water agency to the telecom companies. This however doesn't discredit the plan in question, they don't need to provide you with a source on something that is generally accepted. Your dismissing governmental data, not published fully, while at the same time want me to embrace your original research based on a map-measuring program which is neither all-inclusive about the size of the city nor allows you to have a clue about the individual household sizes, which ultimately has a huge impact on the '2000 year old math' your employing. You used Hong Kong as an example then posted a small surburb as a reference for Hargeisa, and you want me to believe you don't harbour a bias? I know your a teacher sxb, but there is no need to keep referencing academic tests as a measuring stick, the researching team is not trying to get qualifications, they already have it. They made a sound plan for the future and used empirical evidence drawn from multiple sources to create estimates, therefore the content is backed by research. There is not a single institution, or group, or published individual out there disputing their figures, only here on SOL is there a debate about these concensus figures. That is fine, and you have every right to engage in such original research backed by nothing, but this doesn't make it factual, nor does it give your standpoint more credibility against the general concensus, let's make that clear at least. Population figures and statistics is something that I'm very interested in, considering my personal business plans for the future and truthfully brother I hoped you would provide me with something I could put my teeth into, something alternative that would allow me to get a better picture of the situation back home, but instead you have only confirmed to me that the current data, especially that by the independent team in question, is the only credible content available.

The civil war took away the prize of the first female president in Africa that people use to theorize Somalia would elect one day, but we clearly didn't since we destroyed our own superstructure called the 'state'. The first female prime-minister would be the next best thing. Our women deserve it, the backbone of our society!

This topic shows a person's mentality changes every four years after a brutal dose of realism called LIFE. I was so innocent and joyful then now I cringe at this thread lol.

You basing your entire argument on that map-measuring program that is clearly outdated, it doesn't even cover the entire city, so its definitely important to point that out. Secondly, every single angle that you have tried to use to dismiss the concensus has been countered, from your biased picture examples, to the number of households, to the size of the average household, with historic and modern data. You have then tried to descredit the authorative body responsible for the research because they didn't cite their sources, which is comical since they're the 'source' who researched it independently, and no respected body or institution has called them out on it. Then when I pointed out that the population figure has been a consensus amongst academics, media and journalists, you came back with an article on Kibera and how the media inflated the figures, and you used a GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION based figure to prove your point. This is hilarious, its not even a case of 'let's agree to disagree'. only a lack of substance on your part to make a clear case to support your 'fringe' theory.

^Red herring and a fallacy; the media world isn't some monolithic creature all answering to the same Murdochian boss. What is claimed or disputed in one part of the world has no bearing to what is accepted in another by plenty of respected and peer-reviewed institutions. General consensus on the figures is clear, you still have to provide something more credible than a map-measuring program.

Life is too short to be catching hell. I rather be with my own, have a beautiful daughter, beautiful wife that look like me. We'all happy and I don't have no trouble. I ain't that much in love with a woman to go through hell. Ain't no woman that good! It ain't sad that I want my child to look like me, every intelligent man want his child to look like him. You can't take [no] Chinese man and give him [no] Puerto Rican woman and [talk] about love, emotional love and physical love, but really there not happy, because she be into Puerto Rican music and he'll be in to Chinese music and they'll be clashing all the time. It's nature to want to be with your own, I want to be with my own. - MUHAMMAD ALI LOL, I can't believe I share some of his sentiments, considering hatred was imposed on him, while I never suffered that. I especially agreed with the children part. I want mini-versions of myself.

Apophis;864909 wrote: This is interesting but it tells us nothing about the validity of the data in discussion. You appear to be basing your arguments on the strength of the authority not what the data says/doesn't say. Elementary mistake. I do not have to provide anything to counter what your're stating/ the NDP states, the onus is on the claiming to provide sufficient verifiable data for his/her claims. This is basic stuff, I do not know why you're complicating it. The onus is not on me to provide anything, evendo I have done so on several ocassions and each time with credible sources, which are most definitely valid. Someone here is disputing a population figure used by hundreds of media-outlets, studies, journals and books, but doesn't give us a single shred of evidence outside of a map-measuring-program to support his opposition to the general concensus. A case of self-importance gone too far.

Blackflash;864905 wrote: Qualifications mean squat when you don't reference your sources. The fact that several of them have completed doctoral studies should should have stressed the importance of citing one's work. There's a reason why you can't get away with it in school, and my pessimism in regards to this document is one of them. Apophis;864906 wrote: ^^ when it comes to data, it's not about trusting the authorities that what they say is right, but about the data standing on it's own. It wouldn't matter who wrote/was consulted. The data presented must have a way of being verified independently otherwise there is no way to know it's accuracy. Plenty of studies where information not yet published or referenced in journals circulate in the world of academia. The team that compiled this plan and the general SL administration itself have yet to be accused of playing with statistics or facts. This is a study by Somaliland for Somaliland, any organisation interested in knowing more about their data would have the option to visit their office or contact them, but that wasn't SL's original intention, they created a plan for the future and researched it independently. It's been a year, and not a single organisation has even hinted at being suspicious towards the make-up and content of this development plan. I can find dozens of journalists and studies dismissing or scrutinizing the Ethiopian's regime's figures on their economy, I can find dozen of sources scrutinising the TFG and their books, but there is yet to be a study that dismisses the current population statistics of Hargeisa, therefore this 'don't trust the authorities' stance is misplaced. Neither of you have provided me with a single counter study, source or statistic that would support a below 500k population for that city, but at the same time want me to embrace this argument, based on what? A mere opinion originating from map-measurements, or picture comparison with Hong Kong? At least I provided a credible source.

Blackflash;864898 wrote: That's not how it works, if you read any official proposal or document from the Canadian government it'll make reference to Stats Can as well as the specific study/survey done. Stats Can will even detail the dates, methodology and scale of the research study. A government agency can just throw out numbers with out concrete evidence and request a funding for their projects. Example: Dwelling characteristics and household equipment They even cite their own research within their studies. I didn't make the initial claim of the population numbers, the Somaliland government did. They've provided little reference for their claims and I have every right to question them as my hometown is under their governance. They've done well by indicating future plans for a survey, but until then I'll take that as being an admission that they've been pulling stats out of their ***. Why would they do that, especially considering its in reference to an unflattery situation like deforestation and the charcoal trade. You can't compare Canada which probably has more independent 'fact-finding' institutions than the whole of Africa, of course such a Western government wouldn't need to employ its own people directly and can link to sources instead. However in this case, we know independent orgs are non-existent, and the work was done by government officials, just because the data isn't available to us civilians doesn't mean it doesn't exist: I would like to express unreserved gratitude to the NDP team at my Ministry for the sleepless nights they endured to have this Plan researched, developed and written up. I would like to mention in particular the Macro‐Economic Management Office (MEMO) head and team Leader Dr. Hassen Ibrahim Worseme, Dr.Elmi Mahmoud Nur, econometrics expert, Mr. Ahmed Gazali, public investment program expert, Mrs. Kaltun Sh. Hassan, gender expert, Mr. Abdirahman Ahmed Mohamed, macro‐economic expert, Mr. Ali Aideed Farah, social policy expert, Mr. Ahmed Mohamed Diriye, M&E Expert, Mr. Said Jama, Aid Coordination Expert, Mr. Ahmed Abdillahi Nadif, Planning Department Director, and Ms. Hana Mohamed Hersi, Economist. I would also like to thank Mr. Ahmed Dalal Farah, the former Director General, Mr. Abdirashid Mohamed Guleed, the Director General and Mr. Osman Jama Abdillahi, Director of Admin and Finance, for their support.*** Are their qualifications just for show? Is this development nothing but a sideshow? Come'on.

Come'on Blackflash, ''doesn't cite any sources'', are you serious? They are the authorative body in that city and region, they employ economists, survey-men, and factor in the data collected by energy companies, money transfer firms and telecom companies, all of which are credited. What gives you the right to delegitimise their figures on the populations they are governing? What surveys have you conducted, what data have you collected on the ground for us to be convinced? That map-program doesn't cut it. Have you even read the document fully? This is a development plan based on their monotary policies for the future. A smaller population would actually benefit them because then the money they collect from taxes would stretch alot further.

Blackflash;864888 wrote: Before I reply in full, I just need to if that's a personal estimate or if you recovered that info from a primary source (census, survey etc.). I don't do personal estimates, my posts are always based on a source or a study: In Hargeisa, there are about 150-200,000 households -- Ministry of National Planning and Development

^

Blackflash;864859 wrote: Hong Kong has 7,896 highrises. High rises are defined as being at least 11 stories tall. I'll admit that the number of persons per household can play large role but considering the lack of high rises in Hargeisa, do honestly believe that there are enough people crammed in to each home to justify the numbers? I think we'll have to adjourn from this argument as it's clear we'll hold differing views until there is further evidence. I'll leave you with these two photos to give you an idea of why I can't take these numbers at face value: Let's do it this way, since you love math. There are between 150-200,000 households in Hargeisa, the average household has 7-8 members. If we take the low estimate: 150k x 7 = 1050000, if we take the high estimate; 200k x 8 = 1.6 million. In both cases the city has surpassed the million mark. Your image of a Hargeisa suburb is amusing brother, take this image instead, from the foreground all the way to the entire horizon is covered with large sized houses, villas and small appartments and even then the city hasn't been captured in its entirety: Residential Business area Hospitality area

I haven't laugh this hard in ages, dude is mental!

Blackflash;864802 wrote: My apologies about the edit, I hadn't factored in the potential number of refugees who have flooded the city over the course of the last year or so. You can't hide behind the L.A times on this one, the math tells me what I need to know. Why does everyone forget that a crapton of Somalis have been and still are dying or fleeing the country. This is neutralised by the high birth rate, and large back migrations. The math really doesn't tell you what you need to know, because there is scholarly evidence from the 1980s that puts the population of Hargeisa at the 250k mark and growing. The city back then was much smaller than it is today: The Hargeisa urban centre has a population of approximately 250,000, and it is one of the fastest growing towns in Somalia. - Horn of Africa: Volume 4 - 1981 There is no reason to conveniently dismiss the various census/surveys taken before the war because of perceived nepotism, especially in the case of Hargeisa, where it would have been in the interest of the dictator to portray it as small little backwater rather than the fast growing 2nd city of Somalia. I don't have to defend Mogadishu, the city with its grid system plan has been estimated to have a population above the 1 million since the 80s, and during the Islamic courts union was estimated to be well over two million. It's strange, yesterday we had a discussion about the 'big family households' in Somalia, and now we are playing 'where is waldo' with the city/town population sizes of that same country. Yes in Mogadishu there are more five people+ households than in Hong Kong, and sizing up maps (not covering the whole city) won't give you a perfect indicator of the density, so the point is moot.

^Is deji sxb, its just a discussion.