Originally posted by General Duke: ^^^Rome was not built in a day.. Neither was it build with the help of the Carthaginians

Originally posted by peacenow: This really doesn't suprise me. Confirmation, that some Somalis have accepted occupation and it's consequences. In 30 years, a Ethiopian child will taunt a Somali child, and say, we owned you. I will have a full reply, tommorow when I have more time for this. Funny thing is, exactly 30 years ago Ethiopians were going through the same shame as we are currently going through, Somali troops were occupying O-gaden aswell as Sidamo and Bale consilidating their new conquered territories by opening schools and buildin wells. I wonder what they felt at that time, being complety defeated having nothing to counter the advance, being literally threatened to be wiped off the map and being occuppied for 9 months straight 2030 will be our era brother..

There is a difference between making a critical analysis (or self reflection) of our current situation with being plain pessimistic. The chinese have gone through similar and even worser situations in their recent past, they however stayed strong and are today benefiting from it. Going through texts books and libraries is exactly what alot of them did, handing out Chinese orientated history and martial arts books to younger generations is exactly what both KMT and CPC governments did and it revived the sick man of the East Works of Somali scholars are lying in cold arab libraries in Cairo and Damascus and you have those who have the rescources to collect them waisting there times on covering these iritating warlords pushing Somali children away from their great faith instead of inspiring them with their own great scholars, English kids are taught about their ancestors and you have grown ups teaching Somali children Barre's history and how much this group or that group had to do with it instead of teaching them about their female and male ancestors before them. Reading about these great men and women has personally made me a more stable and focused person if this generation were made more aware about their past and not this up to speed ''barre/Aideed/C/Y'' crap there whole mentality would have been different forums like Somali-net clan bashing sites has turned so many of them into qabiilists it's not even funny anymore Therefore one should focus on the coming 5/14 age category currently growing up in the west and back home and revive this sick man of East Africa through culture and history and make them more aware of their surroundings and origins Now back to our current situation and the one we were in the last decade with a six months break of stability in 2006. To deny the resilience of your people who didn't have the easy way out like us but continued to struggle and eventually make progress is a great injustice to them, i do not blame our people it's these foreigners that keep meddling with our business in such a sinister and illigal way by forcing things upon us or prolonging our suffering by arming multiple groups in their covert operations, we have allready shown we are able to handle our business by getting rid of the warlords, we have shown we are able to make economic progress when we quadrupled our trade export in the last decade, we have shown we can survive without foreign aid when the international community turned their back on us, we have shown we can be a leader in acquiring new technology when our telecommunications network began dominating the continent and rivalling the nr 1 Egypt aswell as having the largest number of new internet registers of the continent, we have shown we can make profit in what ever country we reside to the point they even start attacking us, we have shown we can rebuild our education sector without a government when we doubled the number of primary schools from 600 to 1172 and opening multiple universites through out the country Our people have shown that they are strong survivors and i'm not going to honor them with a artificial inferiority complex just because i'm to lazy to go through the facts of what we as a group went through and have achieved, neither will i try to project vibes covered in easily refutable arguments to get a fellow compatriot to feel bad about him/herself be realistic but don't be sinisterly pessimistic with the sole objective to hurt people's feelings, we are allready being attacked by multiple groups both culturally and historically because of our neglect and lack of motivation and optimism I can't allow this to continue.

aka madmullah lol it's that obvious huh? thanks brotha ps what was your nick on the old forum?

yeah i'm very proud but my generation's pride in their country has been undermined serverly by these traitors TFG and other warlords before them but if i could choose between having a stable country and being able to be proud of it today with a chaotic future where my children live through the diasporic pain of seeing all this injustice done by traitors in their homeland like me and many out there are living through then i choose this reality ''rather me than my child'' and Insha-allah i hope my children in the future can visit Ayeeyo and Awoowe every summer i'm gonna bombard the next generation Somali kids with well collected info/books about Somali Empires,Literature,important female and male rolemodels and cultural traditions insha-allah insha-allah insha-allah this is really the only thing somali-wise that keeps me going

neither male or female gonna be my own Chief they be under me.. ME!!

lol centurion , i found the crossing the streets part funny but when he said 28 thousand people die every year as a result of road accidents i was like :eek: when i looked at the video i also got this sad feeling cause Somalia used to be like this, nice and peacefull people doing their day to day stuff no worries on their heads, sunshine and sandy beaches

Originally posted by ThePoint: ^Interesting responses. You're right that being nomads doesn't mean you can't/don't build cities ie. Ottomans etc. But the process of building cities changes the nature of the populace and transforms them into sedentary communities. The Ottoman nomads did build great cities(or greatly expanded them) but that building changed them and they were no longer nomads. That same process doesn't seem to have occurred for large segments of the Somali population if they did build the city=states in both the north and the south of the country. Actually this is not true large part of the traditional Turkish nomads were transformed into city people by Kemal Ataturk's reforms from the late 30's onwards even till today they have a strict policy of turning all of their nomads into sedentary folk ( A BBC doc called ''Traveling through Tangerine about Ibn Battuta'' showed Turkish nomads refusing to settle into cities), the Last Somali government was doing the same and in 1 programme had turned 140 000 nomads into city people and more would have followed in similar programmes, irronically today Somali Urbanisation growth is one of the highest in Africa with growth rate of 8/9% (allthough it has it's down sides i.e clean water electricity but local entrepreneurs seem to be managing this)

Originally posted by ThePoint: Letterman et al - couple of questions 1- What explains the concentration of 'non-pure' cushitic communities in the coastal cities ie Banadiri, Bravanese etc and particularly their dwelling in the oldest parts of these cities(before the war at least)? There ancestors came as merchants especially during Omani rule in the 18th century over Banadir and eventually they settled in these places but this doesn't mean they arrived at a empty spot ethnic Hararis today live in the oldest sections of Harar but still doesn't change the fact.... http://www.answers.com/topic/abu-bakr-ibn-muhammad 2- You cite the mention of Mogadishu, Brava etc using other more ancient names for them - yet the plethora of documentary evidence comes from a later era - one concurrent with the rise of the Swahili city-states further south. Why is that the case do you think? Why is the mention of the city states in Somalia so sparse before the rise of similar city-states further south? Not much research has been done regarding Greek/Roman sources covering this area 2 millenia's ago, therefore it's not fair to say Arab sources are what define Mogadishu's character as a trading civilization in ancient times allthough you have a point since Mogadishu did not come on to the International(world wide) stage untill the 13th century when it controlled the gold trade,(this same era saw numerous explorers visit these trading states wich would explain the amount of literature about these states) but it still doesnt mean we should neglect Greek/Roman sources 3- Is it your theorem that because the Somalis had an ancient presence throughtout the whole of the Horn - that they must necessarily have founded the coastal city-states in Somalia? Or is there more conclusive evidence than the mention of a Berberi chief and Berberi speakers? Actually my stand is very simple, they use a method where they make personal interpretations of ancient texts and put so and so ''here'' and so and so ''there'' excluding my people( which were regarded as Arab migrants or newcomers) in the process despite enough evidence contradicting this with a Somali/Cushtic presence being there since 1 century AD when one looks at their arguments -either their based on -excavations of pottery and coins ( which could easily have been simple trade commodities that were imported) -or it has a anti-Africans can't build civilizations flavour around it (Supremecist era) Being Nomads doesnt mean you can't build cities and towns see Seljuqs

funny pic

very strange here is the clear link sista http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4679426685869498072&q=Rageh+Omaar&hl=en

A very nice [doc] Iran is definitly on my list of countries i want to visit

Sister I haven't read her book but the timeframe she gives is strange, why not in a 100-200 years time? i don't believe this world is still spinning in the year 2999 let alone over a 100 thousand years

Originally posted by Cambarro: Salaam Aleykum Walaalayaal In her book, "Are Men Necessary?" Maureen Dowd mentions that in a 100,000 years women will be running the world. she's right Climate change -> people melt,freeze,drown -> the remains of Humans mysteriously Morph into insects and TADA women rule the world and we out the game...

thanks again MMA N/AA still that doesn't mean we should ignore it, the believes that agriculture of the new year will be fruitfull when this ritual is done might be a bit coo coo but we should examine it's place and role in pre-islamic Somali history

we might speculate that both religiously and militarily the Ajuraan confederation provided a bulwark against the Oromo who, from the middle of the sixteenth century were expanding dramatically in all directions from their homeland -Lee Cassanelli Pastoral Power

MMA the language they speak chimini is only recently been classified as ''Swahili'' but it has nothing to do with the ancient definition of the term Originally posted by Socod_badne: is it true that there were no Somalis in Southern Somalia prior to 1500 AD? Of course not. Linguistic analysis (Fleming, Habarland et al) firmly puts Somalis in that part of the world at least by 500 AD if not earlier. More pertinent to this discusion, there are references of Somali clans -- hence documentation of Somali presence -- for the first time in history by the 13th century arab traveller Ibn Said (1214-87 AD). According to Ibn Said Marka was in the land of a particular Somali clan that still lives in that part of the world. He goes on to mention that the clan lived in 50 or so villiages as well as the landscape describing the Shabelle river in vivid terms. You can even go back a hundred years relying on Al-Idrisi (1100-1166 AD), in the Nuzhat, where he mentions the presence of Somali clans in the same vicinity. Evidently Somalis lived in Southern Somalia at least since 500 AD which discredits your assertion that there were no Somalis in that part of the world prior to 1500 AD. :cool: :cool:

however the northern regions of todays somalia was inhabitated by somalis, such as Zeyla, Bender khasim etc. And also the muslim states of Ifatand Adal before being destroyed or annexed by the Abyssinians. Adal Empire was a multi ethnic State and Somalis were living side by side with their fellow cushitite muslim brothers and sisters (a dream of mine is that we return to this era..we almost did) and it was the Oromo's who gave the deathblow to Adal First of all "cushitic" in modern times is a linguistic term not ethnical/racial and was coined by joseph greenberg in the 19th century so to describe non-semetic speaking groups in the horn, and for sure Ibn battuta never used this word in his accounts when he came to somalia in the 13th century. don't play semantics with me if you can look up the recent definition of name cushitic and it's reason for use regarding Somali and Afar as you just did then you wouldn't have a problem looking up the use of ''Swahili'' in ancient times and you would find out for yourself that the definition of Swahilli ment coast or shore therefore claiming the ancient coastal people were of one ethnic or linguestic background is a fallacy and Abu G's info supports this This included northern sudanese the maghrebians, tuaregs and even somalis be it the settlers of the swahili coast and the pastoralist somalis, there is no single passage in his book where he goes into physical details which could tell us that this were somali nomads rather than the somali swahilis. then you should stop claiming we weren't there since i could switch your silly argument and say the modern Swahilis were never described in detail by Ibn Battuta which would tell us they weren't really there very poor analogy, the rashaida of eritrea have the same lifestyle as ethnic somalis, both are nomads aaaa please the Ottomans were nomads and majority of their people continued to be nomads during their unbelievable expansion through Asia,Europe and Africa,and by your logic Arabs shouldn't be builders of civilizations because they were sheep herders people like you who have a inferiority complex regarding their people disgust me you look down on nomadism despite the fact that great states were created by the same nomads you swallow every nonsense they throw at you '''Somalis had no writting system before the 70's''' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadaad's_writing ^^what is this how was Turkish written in the Ottoman era? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmanya_script http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borama_script wow that's 2 more indiginous writing systems than half of Europe this is just one example of what these colonial writers do in their writing either they exclude facts or attribute everything African and great to foreigners who don't have the incentive to settle and create cities unlike the axumites and the swahilis who had sedentary societies. Harar was booming throughout the middle ages because of the skilled Somali traders especially during Adal's peak lee cassanelli mentions Ajuuran Settlements and ruins throughout Southern Somalia and Somali Galbeed and NFD all of them had sedentary and pastoralist societies Also the rashaida fled to Sudan and eritrea less than a century ago after the Saud clan captured the whole of todays Saudi arabia and the Rashaida clan belonged to one of the Sauds rival clans. So Makkah must have been build by foreigners cause after all they were sheep herders or camel riders and the ones that escaped became nomads in East Africa :rolleyes:

Originally posted by KEYNAN22: yes, but the swahilis existed before omanis colonizing those coasts. Todays swahilis are an amalgation of persians, arabs and native stock. quoting from Brother Abu G post's The evidence strongly suggests that historical Swahili people are descendants of Bantu and Cushitic speaking people who settled along the East African coast in the first millennium Didn't you read the parent post about the Bazrangi persians who settled in east Africa before the advent of islam? He argued that the Persians had a period of settlement in southern Somalia before they landed in Kilwa Kisiwani (Horton, 1996). It is important to note here that for some unknown reasons, Chittick in his later two volumes work on Kilwa (Chittick, 1974) avoided association of the towns’ population with Persians. Instead he advanced the town’s population as an amalgamation of Arabs and Africans by which albeit the latter constituted the greater part of the amalgam, they were however absorbed into the society as wives, slaves or otherwise (ibid:245). In Manda, Chittick revived his old idea of colonisers from Shiraz in Persia. That he did on the basis of mainly excavated imported pottery. He modified the idea a little bit by arguing that, the initial point of settlement of the Shiraz Persians was not southern Somalia as earlier contended but the Lamu archipelago what a shift and LMAO @ pottery Again moqdishu is a name derived from the persian language and existed way before the arabs settled their (before islam). and Mogadishu existed way before them ''Serapion'' founded communities in this area which latter flourished and became the powerfull trading cities of Moqdishu, brava the first being called Serapion (Mogadishu) and the second being Nicon (Brawa); - and after that several rivers and other anchorages -Ariano di Nicomedia (60 AD) and kismayo among others during the middle ages. Kismayo didn't even exist then Somali n9omads were no where to be seen at that time. again The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where proto Sam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali. The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast O-gaden plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernard Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 A.D from Abu G Pastoral-Cushitic group from the Rift Valley and northern part of Kenya (see Horton, 1984, 1987, 1990; Abungu, 1989, 1994). On the basis of excavated cattle and camel bones, Horton (1984, 1987) argued that the Pastoral-Cushitic people founded a number of settlements in the northern coast of Kenya between the 8th and 10th century.

what a lame comeback Zanzibar didn't come under Omani rule untill 1698 long before that place was founded as a trading city and Benadir coast rule only started in the 18th century fact of the matter is when Mogadishu was included in the Name ''Swahili'' it's definition was the original arab word for coast or ''shore'' it was simply a geographic sobriquet covering multiple groups of people and not a ethnic name of a single group like it is today At it's height the famous explorer that visited the Trading civilization of Mogadishu in the 13th century identified the ruler as a Berberi( the named used exclusivly for cushites) and not by a different name coming with Pictures of Somali citizens who are descendants of recent migrants and portraying them as the founders of trading communities that were present in that area long before there ancestors in Omani knew the skills of maritiming is the same as me claiming the Rashaida arabs of Eritrea are the ones who built the Axumite Obelisks that's the way it is David letterman. Sure in a world where the Ptolemy dynasty erected the Sphinx it is indeed! i have alot of work to do today so i'm out you just keep regurgitating colonial myths lies run sprints but the truth runs marathons have a nice day

Originally posted by KEYNAN22: David letterman you're too emotional, and it's never a wise thing to have a discussion with people controled by emotions rather than reason and wisdom, Please don't try that stuff with me, just give me one example of a ad hominem being projected at you originating from me in my last two replies, if you can't just leave it at that I must say i do question your submissiveness( do not translate this as an ad hominem) to Colonial writers and the continues regurgitation of their writings there was once a fellow Puntlander i had this same discussion with on a different forum only he attributed everything in Somaliland to foreigners when i asked him his real motives he confessed to me i have a question to you before we continue are you accepting this colonial crap simply because your from a different region?(P-land) or is it something else? let's continue Well it doesn't really matter if swahilis were not unified or homogeneous people, of course it matters especially when you claim the following the point here is that southern half of somalia was runned by swahilis, biladu 's-sawahili (towns of the coastal people) where does it say Bantu? where does it say non Somali? so Somalis can't be people of the coast? is that what your saying? and somali nomads had no impact be it socially or economically on these mini swahili states. Infact it wasn't untill post 15th century that somali nomads appeared on the scene. Or are you claiming that cities like Brava, kismayu and Moqdishu were established by somali nomads? - these Trading communities were known by different names a millenia before the so-called foundation dates - Recent scholarship says Somali people inhabited the whole Horn of Africa since the 1 century Ad - Archeological evidence supports this. -Ibn Battuta the man that knows the terminologies -Zanji and Swahili called the Sultan of Mogadishu a Berberi - Arab explorers called Somali people Berberi's - Siad S. Samater Indicates Ajuuran presence and hegemony long before this so-called Somali expansion you claim It's very simple it's our land always has been Yes habash but not Zanj. Zanj is a´ctually a pejerotive term that describes the negroid slaves from mozambique, tanzania and kenya, it's basically denotes the bantu slaves and is derived from zanzibar, which was a notorious slave outlet for arabs who needed slaves. Somalis were not known as Zanji. Zanji -''Land of the Blacks'' are Somalis white? again it was a geographic name which later became the favourite definition of a bantu slave from East Africa Berberi is anyone who looks afro-asiatic and not negroid, the somalis fit in to this description, and so do the swahilis, so this doesn't tell us much does it? if the Swahilis fit into the berberi description how could Somalis not fit in the term ''Swahili'' it ment coast simple as that The benadir coast was controlled by the The benadir coast was controlled by the persians, omanis and mixed with some native stock. Muzzafar persians were vassals of the Ajuuranites and eventually were expelled the Omanis didn't controll parts of the Benadir coast untill the 18th century Relax, no one is trying or interested in conspiring against somali nomads, then why are the same Somali nomads who were powerfull traders and sultans Hybridized or excluded from their own history? you just relax and let people like me do their thing How do you know that these remains are from "ancient somalis"? Oromos in particular the boraan have been roaming around in somalia waay before somali nomad started expanding from Ethiopian region. And there is no real difference in cranial morphology between inhabitant in this horn region. then you should realize by now you just answered your own question Serbs and Bosniaks might be enemies or have different religions and languages today they still come from the same proto-group so i'm in my right to call them Ancient Somalis The South is my Land P-land is my Land S-land is my Land NFD is my Land -S-galbeed is my Land past,present and Future There is nothing to pitty, facts are facts regardless if you don't like them. You on the other hand need to be less emotional, and try to appeal to your logic when analyzing historical incidents. these are not facts they are theories based on speculation and myths, and the one that does not question these theories from a Supremecist era but simply goes in a regurgitation mode is definitly someone i piety, for he preaches logical thinking yet he blindly takes for granted the info he found and processed are from an era where the ones that were written about were 2 steps below in the minds of the ones doing the writing, therefore classifying this person's method of thinking and believes regarding the history of Africa as illogical One should read their work and filther out all the biased hearsay and myth derived dogma