Originally posted by Emperor: ^Don't confuse yourself pal, this is not Shariif Ahmed's yesteryear UIC , its Alshabaab settinp up and forming the administration... -------------------- ---------------- Maamul hoos taga ururka Al shabaab oo looga dhawaaqay goordhow magaalada Jowhar. Posted: 5/20/2009 8:15:00 PM Shabelle: JOWHAR Waxaa magaalada Jowhar ee xarunta gobolka Sh/dhexe looga dhawaaqay maamul islaami ah oo hoos taga ururka Alshabaab oo dhawaan la wareegay magaaladaasi. Maamulkani oo noqon doona mid islaami ah ayaa waxaa goordhow looga dhawaaqay magaalada Jowhar kadib kulan ay wada qaateen qeybaha kala duwan ee bulshada ku dhaqan magaaladaasi iyo saraakiil ka tirsan ururka Al shabaab. Warkaasi oo dhameystiran goordhow filo Insha Allaa You should read what you post. The ''new men'' in this ''new administration'' are the same ones in the ICU admin: ------ Waxaa uu sheegay inay u magacaabeen Waaliga Wilaayada Alshabaab ee Shabellaha Dhexe ama Gudoomiyaha Maamulka Alshabaab ee Gobolka Shabellaha Dhexe Sheekh C/raxmaan Xasan Xuseen oo loo yaqaan Macalin Cabdi. Sheekh C/raxmaan waxaa uu ka mid ahaa Maamulkii Maxkamadaha Islaamka , isagoona muddo lix bilood ka hor ahaa Gudoomiye Kuxigeenkii Maxkamadaha islaamka ee Gobolka, hase ahaatee waxaa ay is khilaafeen Gudoomiyihii hore Macalin Dahir, taasoo markii dambe keentay inuu ku biro Ururka Alshabaab. Ururka Alshabaab ayaa sidoo kale sheegay in ay dib ka soo magacaabayaan xubnaha kale ee Maamulka Gobolka, sida dhinacyada Amniga, dhaqaalaha iyo Gudoomiyeyaasha Degmooyinka, waxaana ay sheegeen inay la tashi la sameyn doonaan dadka deegaanka. Or is your cuqdad and hatred for Sh.Shariif blinding you?

Emperor, Sh.Shariif does not concern me. I am pointing to the silly game of ''seizing a town through the barrel and annoucning a paper administration that is legitimized by the barrel of the gun''.

FEW QUESTIONS: Did the region not have a prior ''Islamic administration''? What makes this current ''Islamic administration'' different? As I said many times: we are dealing with warlord entities replacing each other and appying the same tactics. Tomorrow, another warlord entity will defeat the current one (Alshabab) and announce yet again a ''NEW ADMINISTRATION'' through the BARREL OF THE GUN.

NOTHING NEW, THE SAME WARLORD TACTICS IN ACTION. I presented this analysis not long ago: It was directed against the religious pretenders in control of Jowhar at that time, but it can be used against the current faction too. The Islamic administration in Jowhar-Middle Shabelle seized power through the gun. They defeated the previous administration of warlord M.dheere, and replaced it with their Islamic administration. This Islamic administration exhibits the same structure and modus operandi of the previous secular (warlord) administrations. Few characteristics: -A close unit of individuals that share ideals with their own private militia take control over strategic points of the city. -They try to appease different segments of the society in accepting their rule -They establish relative stability and sense of authority in the city by the barrel of the gun. - After been in control for a quite time, they start to organize a governing body for the city, which they have created and is composed of their men with no prior consultation or involvement of the society it is ment to govern. - They announce the creation of the local administration through radio and other media, and expect the people will support it, voluntarily prefered, if not by the gun. - Then they resort to ''taxation'' (extortion) by sheer force. --------------- Why should the people of Jowhar pay taxes while they have NO political representation? The Islamic group that has set up their islamic administration did not consult with the people, did not explain to the people their agenda, and want to extort the people from their money to finance the existence of their administration? What makes them any different then the previous warlord administration? http://www.somaliaon line.com/ubb/ultimat ebb.php?/topic/9/173 08#000000

But, to be fair to Kashafa, he at least believes there is a plan in place. He just leaves it to his Amir to formulate. He's a mere foot soldier and a contented monkey (said with the utmost respect of course). All your questions here should be directed at the organ grinders, saaxib. What have the leaders of Al Shabab said that their plans are? I believe that Kashafa is an intelligent young Somali man. He supports the Islamists because he believes wholeheartedly in their ideology. Now, it shouldnt be difficult for him to explain us what the Islamists want for Somalia and how they wish to govern it?

Kashafa, Again, try not to present simple rethorics and present a genuine reasoning on why the Islamist are good for Somalia's long-term development. Here are my questions: We want to understand the Islamist viewpoint on -how to govern Somalia, - political representation of the people -develop the economy, -govern the regions, -their policy to combat clannism and other societal ills. -Their view towards basic freedoms: free press, free speech, free thinking. -Their view towards the role of the central state vis-a-vis the provincial admins. Liqaye too has legitimate Qs.

Kashafa, Good to have you on board. However, your first attempt is amateurish. Try harder bro and try to defend your believes by clear reasoning instead of simple rethorics. Also, try to present an analysis without comparing your Islamist factions to the warlords and other evil factions. If you truelly believe that the Islamists are in the best interest of Somalia, you should be able to explain it clearly to us and evaluate their ideology on its own merits instead of comparing it with other evils. Now, let us return to your first attempt of presenting the Islamist viewpoint on economics (port administration). You have presented a news article which narrates the succes of Kismanyo port compared to its earlier performances under JVA. But besides lowering taxes and besides the closure of Ceel Macaan and the extortion of businessmen in Mogadishu port, what exactly have the Islamists done? The success of Kismanyo port stemms from the situation in Mogadishu. The port of Mogadishu is badly mismanaged by criminals who extort businessmen, Ceel Macaan port is closed and the taxes of Kismanyo port have been lowered. The success is thus logical, and no ''master economic plan'' was needed on the part of the Islamist admin in Kismanyo to bring about this initial succes. Another thing is, Bosaso port is booming and there is no Islamic administration in Bosaso. ceel Macaan port was booming and it was not governed by Islamic administraion, so why do you present a false image of: ''Have Islamic administration in place, and port revenues will increase''? If every single metric, be it economical, political, and military points to the success of the Islamic platform, philosophy, and governing model Explain us this success and how the Islamists if they take-over Somalia would govern the nation. Me and Jaale-Liqaye have presented legitimate questions, so please answer those questions without resorting to simple rethorics.

NGONGE, At least we have hopes and dreams, and as you know every great history in the world is written by men who had hopes and dreams. Those who can not hope nor dream are destined to follow changes like simple creatures. I want to hear their ''hopes and dreams'' for Somalia and whether those are in line with the ''hopes and dreams'' of the Somali masses.

Jalle Liqaye Good questions. Let us hope our dear Islamists on this board will answer some questions and explain us their Islamist viewpoint towards Somalia and its long-term developmental path.

Kashafa, I myself am not a believer in Federalism, and see it as a danger. However dont limit the discussion to federalism or warlordism. We want to understand the Islamist viewpoint on -how to govern Somalia, - political representation of the people -develop the economy, -govern the regions, -their policy to combat clannism and other societal ills. -Their view towards basic freedoms: free press, free speech, free thinking. -Their view towards the role of the central state vis-a-vis the provincial admins.

Al-Zeylaci, Nice explanation. My explanation for their actions is not relevant since I do not support them. The fact that it had happened is already enough for me to condemn them and bring forth their ugly side to the public. Anyways, your explanatory skills are very much needed in this thread

Now, Kashafa, we have waited long enough for you to explain the Islamist viewpoint on Somalia. I believe this is the right time to bring up that discussion again. Al-Zeylaci, you 2 are welcome to elaborate on the agenda of the Islamists for Somalia. How would the Islamist factions govern and develop Somalia? Let us for once discuss ideas instead of supporting different factions and engaging in silly cyber-version of the conflict in Somalia.

Your vision will result in a nepotic, pseudo-religous, pseudo-religious goverment operating on the tenents of ''Political Islam''. The reason for this? The concentration of power in the hands of few men is dangerous. Power corrups men, even those who claim to be pious. As you yourself said: I'm human, abti, riddled with flaws and shortcomings. 'Rhetorical flourishes' are one of them. Don't mistake the actions of flawed muslims(aniga oo ugu horeeyo) with the beauty and nobility of Islam and Islamic Shareeca. So those ''pious men'' who will take the position of Siad Barre and instead of a pseudo-Marxist-Socia list idelogy will rule us with a pseudo-''Political Islamism'' will be NO DIFFERENT! We will not take the risk of concentrating much power in the hands of 1 or a couple of men, who will be corrupted and will corrupt the pureness and nobility of Islam and Islamic Shareeca by their flawed human actions. Original thread: http://www.somaliaon line.com/ubb/ultimat ebb.php?/topic/9/176 03

I would like to invite all the staunch supporters of the Islamist camp, mainly Alshabab/Xisbi Islam, to come in and explain the other Somali nomads what the agenda is of the factions they support? Not long ago, Kashafa had this vision for Somalia: quote: Originally posted by Kashafa: quote: Federalism is the key and building strong locally based admins like Puntland should be the short term goal. Federalism will be the death-knell of Somalia. It will never be tolerated. It will never be accepted. Solution: One strong central government, just like we had in the '70s when we were the 2nd strongest military power in all of Africa. Only this time(pay attention here, peacnik/dh.b.lif nutjobs), only this time, instead of a nepotic, atheist, secular goverment operating on the tenents of Marxism-Leninism, there will be a Islamic central government operating under Kitaab-ul-Allah Wa Sunnata-Rasoolih. Provinces will have governors/Amiirs appointed by the central government. Example: Abu Bakr Al-Zaylaci is the current governor of the Kismayo reigion(not just city), his term is about to come to an end, another governor will be appointed, or he will get another term in office. That's the model that will be extended to all of Somalia. I know this sticks a fork in many of your qabiil-ridden throats, but um, choke on it. That's how it's gonna be, inshallah. Is that the Islamist agenda for Somalia?

I would like to hear the explanation by those staunch supporters. Clearly something is not right.

Zeylac, Insha Allah. we will discuss another time in another thread your view on the whole of Somalia. So far we are familiar with your rants against the warlords in Mogadishu and everything related to Southern Somalia. The next step is to understand your view concerning the regionalist sentiments in Northern Somalia. As for your comment ''this is Somalia'', why did Alshabab resort to looting in Jowhar and not in Baidoba, Kismanyo and Merca? Can you also explain that?

Thanks for the clarification NGONGE, I found their political views to be close, both have sympathies for the Islamist Revolution post-2006 and at the same time for the secessionist cause/regionalist attidute of the Northern Somalis. Considering my short stay on SOL, I could be wrong.

Kashafa, If you want to accuse me and discredit my political view by tying me to the defunct, and despised old warlords than bring forth evidence and if you can't kindly apologize. Also, Zeylac is the last person to accuse me of double loyalty, and clan support. We all know how he is silent about the secessionist cause and the true intentions of SNM. PS: BTW, is Mujahid-red sea and Zeylac the same person? I have difficulty separating the two.

Originally posted by Kashafa: ^^ My view is: Shit happens. The last thing on my mind at this point is some f'ing UN equipment that may or may not have been stolen but is being used as propoganda by a defeated bitter chap by the name of Meeji. That's my view, abti. Your utterings could have been made by a supporter of Aideed/Cumar Jess militia's conquering and looting cities during 1991-1994.

Boob wali ka socota xaruntii Unicef ee Magaalada Jowhar iyo qalabkii ugu badnaa oo lagala baxayo Wararka ka imaanaya magaalada Jowhar ayaa sheegaya in maleeshiyaad ka tirsan Xarakada al shabaab ay boob ka geysanayaan xarunta hay'ada Qaramada Midoobay ee Unicef iyadoo halkaasi ka daabulanaya dhamaan agabyada kala duwan ee ay hay'adaasi isticmaaleysay. Ururka Al shabaab ayaa waxa ay si bareer ah alaabooyin kala duwan uga guranayaan xarunta hay'ada Unicef ay ku leedahay magaalada jowhar iyadoo alaabinkaasi ay isugu jiraan, Matooro, computero, dawooyin iyo qalab xafiiseedyada kale iyo sidoo kale dukumiintiyo ay isticmaaleysay hay'adaasi. Waxaana dad goob jogayaal ah sheegayaan in halkaasi ay ka shaqeynayaan seddex gawaari oo ku xamuulka ah kuwaasi oo lagu daabulayo agabkaasi iyadoo sidoo kalena la keenay halkaasi wiishash si loogu qaado konteenarada halkaasi ku xareysan ee ay ku jiraan qalabka kala duwan. Sidoo kale qalabka ay halkaasi ka guranayaan ururka Al shabaab ayaa waxaa ku jira qalabka miinooyinka lagu baaro taaso ay u adeegsan doonaan weeraradood ay ku qaadayaan ciidamada ka soo horjeeda, waxaana la ogeyn sida ay ka yeeli doonaan xarumaha kale ee hay'adaha halkaasi ka shaqeeya. Xarunta hay'adaasi ayaa waxaa xalay ku hoyday maleeshiyaadka Al shabaab iyadoona weli ay socoto in la qaato qalabkii ay isticmaali jirtay hay'adaasi Unicef oo xarunteeda koonfurta iyo bartamaha Soomaliya ugu weyn ay ku tiilay magaalada Jowhar. Lama yaqaano sababta rasmiga ah ee ka danbeysay arintani iyadoo goor sii horeysay uu sheegay Wakiilka Alshabaab ee Gobolka Banaadir Sheekh Cali Maxamed Xuseen in baarayaan dibna ay ugu celinayaan dhamaan waxyabihii hore looga boobay hay'adaha taasoo hada isbedel uu ku yimid oo dhamaan hay'adani qalabkeeda la raranayo. Dadka magaalada jowhar ayay arintani fajacweyn ku abuurtay waxayna saaka ay dadku isweydiinayaan sababaha keeni kara in Al shabab ay bililiqo xoogan ka geystaan magaalada jowhar oo ay gacanta ku dhigeen labo maalmood ka hor, waxaana dawooyinka iyo qlaabka kaleba wax loogu qaban jiray dadka ku dhaqan deeganada hoos yimaada jowhar oo u badan dad beeraley ah. Shaqalaaha hay'adaasi ayaan loo ogoleyn xilligan inay ku sugnaadaan xaruntaasi waxaana halkaasi la wareegay maleeshiyaad ka tirsan Al shabaab oo habeenkii xalay ahaa halkaasi ku hoyday. Dadka magaalada ayaa arrintan fajaciso ku noqotay iyadoo boobkan uu yahay boob cad oo aan meelna looga soo gamban, waxaana rajo xumo laga muujinayaa mustaqbalka hey'adaha sama falka ee magaalada jowhar. Hooyga wararka Somaliyed www.Jowhar.com Jowharcom@hotmail.co m Jowharcom@gmail.com Saciid on May 20 2009 07:39:36 ·

Me, Before you continue with you analysis we first have to point to one major discrepancy in your reasoning, namely flawed comparison. The short 2-year Ethiopian occupation can hardly be compared to the centuries-old, institutionalized, deep-rooted European colonization regimes in Algeria, Vietnam, India, and South Africa. The religious pretenders want to portray an image of them been liberation force evicting a colonizing power, but I have to say that they have missed the boat 50-60 years ago when Somalia was actually colonized by foreign powers. What is the correct understanding of the situation in Somalia? It started with the ever growing influence and power of the Islamic courts in Mogadishu city and their eventual collusion with the power and influence of the warlords in Mogadishu. The warlords who are inherently after self-enrichment and protection of their power and influence found a way to collaborate with foreign agents against the influence and power of Islamist leaders in Mogadishu. In 2006, the two camps collided and the old familiar warlords of Mogadishu lost the war against the Union of Islamic Courts who had better organized and disciplined soldiers and the goodwill of the people. Their emergence and eventual overthrow of the old order (warlord order) was welcomed by the Somali people and feared by those foreign powers that had a stake in the old order: West and Ethiopia. The religious pretenders were clever, and knew that they could defeat the warlords not because the people warmly embraced their ideology but supported them because they despised the old order. So in this situation where your ideology is not supported you have to force the people in accepting you, and what is a better way than to agitate for war against arch-enemy Ethiopia? The religious pretenders and their aggressive, expansionist campaign is one of the many causes for the eventual Ethiopian invasion and occupation. Now, the 2 year brutal Ethiopian occupation led to the radicalization of the Somali masses and their embracement of all factions fighting against the occupation, preferably a radical entity. Thousands of young men filled the ranks of the Islamists after seeing their families been massacred, maimed, mothers/sisters/wive s been raped, their houses destroyed etc. I bet the religious pretenders were rejoicing the events since they saw their ranks filled with young men. After the Ethiopian occupation has been defeated and the Somali Republic is back to its pre-2006 reality, the religious pretenders want to prolong conflict and through military means conquer all Somali regions because they have nothing positive to sell to the Somali masses. Their ideology is defunct, and has little support from the Somali masses. Their power comes from their army organization and effectiveness, and as we all know such basis for power is temporarily as other factions will be forced to adopt same tactics and organization methods. Eventually, the faction that has the support of the masses wins. Even if we go back to your previous analogy of anti-colonial struggle we can see that the liberation forces prevailed because of the will of the people, and not through their military strength since the colonial regime had larger and more powerful armies then the liberation forces. Currently, the religious pretenders are going the same path as the political pretenders after 1991. Their ideology was defunct, and the only means through which they could gain support of the masses was their struggle against the previous order which was despised. But the problem for such political campaigns is: ''Whats next''? The old order has been shattered, on what grounds will you now seek support from the Somali masses? Through your ideology or through sheer force, i.e the barrel of the gun?

Kashafa, Stop the usual rants against Ethiopia or SH.Shariif and comment on the subject in discussion., This topic is about looting down in Jowhar city by religious pretenders (Alshabab). What is your view?

The religious pretenders are slowly showing their true face: new generation of warlords.

Xoogaga Alshabaab oo bililaqo xoogan ku wada Mid ka mid ah xarumaha Hey'adaha Sama falka Magaalada Jowhar Shacabka ku dhaqan xarunta gobolka sh/dhexe ee Jowhar ayaa ku tilmaamay wax laga naxo iyo sumcad darro in xarumihii haydaha samafalka ee gobolka sh/dhexe ay bililaqo u geystaan koox sheeganaysa inay shareecada islaamka ku dhaqayso dalka, Qaar kamid ah aqoonyahanka iyo dhalinyarada magaalada Jowhar oo la soo xiriiray Jowhar.com ayaa waxa ay sheegeen in ay codsi gaar ah u dirayaan madaxda sar sare ee xarakada Alshabaab codsigaasna uu ku wajahan yahay in laga daayo bililaqada xarumaha hayadaha gargaarka gaar ahaan kuwa qaramada midoobay iyo MSF(spain) Dadka codsiga jeedinaya ayaa waxa ay sheegeen in muddo dheer dalka soomaaliya ay ka dhacayeen dagaalo sokeeye gobolka sh,dhexena uu soo maray dagaallo faro badan oo isugu jira ku qabaaillo ay ku dagaalameen iyo kuwo kale oo ay maamullo ay isaga hor yimaadeen, hase yeeshee arrintan haatan socota ma ahan mid soomartay magaalada Jowhar. Haddaba waa maxay ururka alshabaab oo gacan ku haaya inta badan ee dalka soomaaliya uu sidan uga gelayaa shacabka reer Jowhar? Codsigan ayaa dadka soo gaarsiiyey shabakada Jowhar.com waxay ugu dambayntii xusuusiyeen xarakada alshabaab in reer Jowhar ay yihiin dad beeralay ah oo aysan dooneynin in dhibaato la soo gaarsiiyo. Wararkii ugu dambeeyay ee caawa naga soo gaara Magaalada Jowhar ayaa sheegaya in galabta ilaa caawa ay gudaha xarunta Hey'adda UNICEF ku jiraan xoogag ka tirsan Alshabaab, kuwaasoo bililaqo iyo boob ka wado, waxaana ay jirdil u geysteen shaqaalihii xafiiska iyo ilaaladii. Calankii Hey'adda ayay dhulka u dhigeen, shaqaalihii ayay dibada u soo saareen, mid ka mid ah gaadiidkooda dagaal ayaa gudaha xarunta ku sugan, ciidamo fara badan ayaa baaris iyo boob ku haaya, ciidamadan waxay yihiin kuwo cusub oo manta soo gaaray magaalada, kuwaasoo boobkooda u cuskaday inay xaq tahay in waxa ay ugu yeereen qaniimo ka geysteen xarunta hey'adda maadaama xoolo gaalo leedahay ay tahay. Arrintan ayaa ku soo aadeysa xilli Saraakiisha Alshabaab ay qirteen in maalin ka hor ay xoogagooda gacma gacmeys u geysteen xarumaha hey'adaha lana soo celin doono wixii la qaatay, laakinse arrinkan ayaa ah mid dadka ay aad uga fajaceen, iyadoona boob iyo bililaqo hor leh loo geystay. Hooyga wararka Somaliyed www.Jowhar.com Jowharcom@hotmail.co m Jowharcom@gmail.com

Me, First of all, lets get Ethiopia out of the discussion because no sane Somali would deny that it is in their interest to keep Somalia weak. Secondly, you have to understand that we can not accuse Ethiopia for all of our problems. The warlords were armed by whoever could arm them, and today we have religious pretenders who are committing the same sins of the previous warlords: been armed by foreign actors and using those arms to gain political power without any compromise with other factions and with zero consideration for the Somali civilians. Yesterday, these religious pretenders were welcomed because the Somali masses were disillusioned with the old order, today these religious pretenders are causing unparalleled misery and are pushing their will through sheer power i.e the barrel of the gun instead of the support of the people. The previous warlords had the same origins in 1991, first welcomed, then despised then oppression of the people through the gun. Thirdly, I want the supporters of Alshabab/Xisbi Islam to explain us how these entities are in the interest of Somalia and its people. Have they made clear their ideology? What exactly do they want? -Islamic Law? Why not respect the Culama and work with the various sections of society to implement Islamic Law then? -Independence for Somalia? Why then are they armed, financed, and trained by foreign entities? -Save the Somali nation? Why then are they not allowing the 1 million displaced to return to their houses and are they inflicting pain on the civilians that have returned? It is time that we scrutinize these religious pretenders instead of been led by emotions.