The Somalis of the North were true patriots and Somalis that struggled for the common good of the Somali nation. Today, they are under the heavy negative influence of undesirable individuals like JB. Somalis have become ugly since 1991. Insha allah we will rehabilitate the Somali man to its pre-1960 condition: brave, patriotic, Somali-minded, freedom-loving and having unconditional love for his Somali nation.

JB, Whether you like it or not you are part of that failure. Chasing a dream doesn't mean you can escape your problems.

^^ Who's fault is that? All Somalis should feel responsible for the fate of our country.

Me, Somalia, meaning the Somali Republic with the 7 shape, came into existence on 1 july 1960. Thus when I say ''Somalia'' I do not mean the Somalis and their presence in the Horn of Africa but the Somali Republic with its borders that were recognized on 1 July as ''Somalia''. As for the question: - Should we give up on the idea of seeing a united Somalia as was the case on 1 july 1960, 49 years ago? - Or should we learn from past mistakes and never give up? Is a question posed to the public. Two alternatives: give up on Somalia or try again by learning from past mistakes. Purpose of the topic: This topic is ment to discuss with each other thoughts on Somalia, its past and future. Nowadays it seems like that people have made up their mind and are tired (or do not want) to explain their stance to the other Somalis who have different thoughts. Everybody has this idea of: ''I want this, and you want that..let the winner have his will'' Thats a tragic mentality which only prolongs the conflict and mutual hostility. We need to talk to each other and try to understand our differences.

The concept of ''Somalia'' exist 49 years. The Somali nation-state (the 7) exists 49 years. Although the state collapsed and the country became divided the concept of ''Somalia'' still exists in our minds/hearts and international system of nation-states.

49 years ago:

In these dark days it is wise to recall what went wrong and trace one's steps back to right before the disaster. This topic is ment not to celebrate Somalia's independence alone with gimmicks but to exchange thoughts on what went wrong. The subjects to be discussed: 1960 The Somali union of the two parts: British Somaliland and Italian Somaliland - Was it negotiated properly? What went wrong in the integration of both parts and the institutions they inherited from the colonial powers. - Can we say that not only the two parts were poorly integrated but that the whole country was poorly integrated into a united nation? 1960-1991 The previous Somali governments - The performance of the SYL government. What went wrong? - The performance of the Socialist military regime/government. What went wrong? Somalia’s main objectives: - Somaliweyn agenda: bringing the Somali territories in the Horn together. - Were the previous regimes right in elevating the Somaliweyn agenda above the development of a strong, united Somali nation-state (Somalia-7)? - Eradicating Somali clannism (its negative aspects) and uniting the divided Somali communities into one nation conscious about its common desires and hopes. 1991-2006 - Was the collapse of the Somali state inevitable considering the many contradictions existing in Somali society and the failure of the Somaliweyn agenda? - What forced the different factions in the civil war to cannibalize on the Somali Republic, i.e anarchism, secessionism, warlordism, clan-regionalism etc. The coming 50 years - Should we give up on the idea of seeing a united Somalia as was the case on 1 july 1960, 49 years ago? - Or should we learn from past mistakes and never give up? You are all welcome to share your thoughts and contribute to the discussion in a constructive manner.

^^ Thierry, If we have a suicidal brother amongs ourselves it is the duty of the family to rehabilitate the kid and make him appreciate life. The extremists should not take the Somali nation with them if they want to blow themselves up.

^^ MMA, Dont get me wrong: The dictatorship of Barre had to go in 1991 like the warlords had to go in 2006. No single regret of the overthrowing of those corrupt regimes. The only regret is that political and religious pretenders led those two great Somali struggles! The overthrow of these two corrupt regimes was widely welcomed but what the Somali masses regret is that they have placed their unconditional support and hope for political/religious pretenders just because they despised the corrupt regimes. A lesson for in the future: ''factions should not be trusted upon their word and retorics and that we have to ask critical questions, even if the status quo is unbearable''

Amin Arts as we all know tells how the situation on the ground is in his own unique way: http://www.aminarts. com/Jun_20_2009.html

Gudoomiye ku Xigeynka Maamulka Islaamiga ah ee Magaalada Kismaayo C/Qani Max’ed Yuusuf oo Saxaafada u waramayey ayaa sheegay in ay weerari Doonaan Wadamadaasi isla markaana ay si toos ah Ciidama Itoobiya ee haatan ku sugan Qeybo kamid ah Dalka u beegsan doonaan kuwaas oo uu Sheegay in ay Dalka Xooga kaga saareen. C/Qani oo arinkaa ka hadalyey ayaa yiri :“Waxaan Rabaa in aan ku baraarujiyo Shucuubta Muslimiinta ah in wixii Maanta ka dambeeyo ay waajib nagu tahay in aan anagu Duulno oo Cadawga Alle SW aan ku Duulno Godadkiisa aan ugu Tagno Guryahooda iyo Meelihii ay nooga soo duleen aan ugu Daba Tagno kuwa joogana Wadankeena Meesha ay ka joogaan aan ugu Tagno”. Alshabab moutpiece: Somalimirror. Now lets ask legitimate questions: - Do the religious pretenders who can not even overcome the other Somali factions have the power to ''hunt the Ethiopian soldiers wherever they are''? Do they have the military power? The economic power? Can they withstand an Ethiopian invasion backed by Western Capital? THE answer is clearly NO, so whya re they making these threats at this time? The answer is: They want Ethiopians to come into Somalia and occupay its strategic regions again. Thats the extremist Alshabab way of ''requesting Ethiopian military into Somalia''. We need to fight these extremists that do not care for the Somali nation but only for their extremist-imported version of our religion. PS: It is ironic that Alshabab fought ONLF inside of Somalia. The ONLF who as we all know fought the Ethiopians in a brutal guerrilla war for more than a decade!

Somali hardline Islamists threaten Ethiopia By Mohamed Ahmed Tuesday, June 30, 2009 MOGADISHU, June 30 (Reuters) - Somalia's Islamist rebels threatened on Tuesday to attack Ethiopia after repeated witness reports that Ethiopian troops were back in the chaotic Horn of Africa country they withdrew from in January. Ethiopian troops invaded Somalia in 2006 to oust an Islamist movement from the capital in which new President Sheik Sharif Ahmed played a role. That sparked an Islamist insurgency which is still raging despite their withdrawal. "I'm telling the people that it's time we attacked Ethiopia, who are our Christian neighbours," Sheikh Abdiqani Mohamed Yusuf said on a radio station controlled by the al Shabaab rebels in the southern port of Kismayu. "We have to invade their country, like they did to our country. This is our best chance," he said. "The people should be ready to take part in jihad." Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi said last week possible suicide attacks in Ethiopia by Somali Islamist rebels were a threat he "didn't expect to go away any time soon". Witnesses have said heavily armed columns of Ethiopian troops have crossed the border and are in several parts of Somalia. The Ethiopian government has repeatedly denied that. President Ahmed, a moderate Islamist, fled into exile after the Ethiopian intervention but joined a peace process last year and was elected in January. His government is battling hardline insurgents who were once allies in the Islamist movement. BEHEADINGS Addis Ababa has said it supports the new government, but is wary of the hardline Islamists, who are seen as a proxy for al Qaeda, because they control large areas of Somalia and have threatened to destabilise neighbouring Ethiopia and Kenya. With reports of foreign jihadists streaming into Somalia, Western security services are worried al Qaeda may get a grip on the failed Horn of Africa state that has been without central government for 18 years. Violence from the Islamist-led insurgency has worsened this month, with a minister, the Mogadishu police chief, and a legislator killed. Al Shabaab wants to impose a strict version of sharia law, at odds with a more moderate version followed by most Somalis. Al Shabaab cut a hand and a foot each off four thieves in Mogadishu last week and paraded the limbs in the streets. On Tuesday, the hardline insurgents beheaded two residents and shot dead a clan chief in Wajid district of Bakool region in which borders Ethiopia in southern Somalia, witnesses said. Another man was beheaded in the region on Monday. The government, which controls little but a few blocks of the capital, has declared a state of emergency and appealed to neighbouring countries for military assistance. Ethiopia's Meles has not ruled out sending troops to Somalia if Ethiopia is threatened but says he is waiting to see how the international community responds to the deteriorating security situation in the country. (Writing and additional reporting by Barry Malone in Addis Ababa; additional reporting by Abdi Guled in Mogadishu; editing by David Clarke). Source: Reuters, June 29, 2009

It has become apparant that the religious pretenders want Ethiopian soldiers inside of Somalia and are desperately trying to take on an aggressive attidute while Somalia needs time to sort its mess out. We all knew that the TFG was dependent on foreign powers and even asked for Ethiopian/foreign assistance (read: occupation). But on the other side the religious pretenders of Alshabab also want Ethiopian occupation of Somalia since no sane Somali supports their extemist-imported-ve rsion of our religion. So in order to rally the people behind their struggle they have to get the Ethiopians inside of Somalia so that they can take on the rol of the ''hero's liberating Somalia'' and Somali people are placed in a situation of: Them (alshabab) or the Ethiopians. They are thus putting their selfish political agenda above the interest and security of the Somali nation. This is something no sane Somali who cares for the well-been of the Somali nation should accept, and it is our moral duty to counter this evil agenda of both camps: TFG and the extremists.

On another note: I was from day one opposed to religious pretenders despite their sweet retorics. And the events that unfolded since 2006 have proven me correct. The religious pretenders have contributed to: - The unimagined human displacement since 1991. - A massacre of civilians unseen since 1991. - A level of destruction unseen since 1991. - A more darker political future for Somalia Ofcourse, I understand the bloody nature of a revolution whether it was 1991 or 2006 one but a revolution without a stable group of leaders and a party organization that makes clear its party programme for the country is one that squanders the hope of the nation and causes unnecessary suffering and destruction.

MMA The warlords forgot to mention that it was them who prolonged the anarchy and lawlessness and on top of that exported wadaado for cash. Such a situation forces decent wadaado into the arms of Al Qaida. As a consequence they are forced to enlist the support of foreign Jihadi fighters. Lets not confuse cause and consequence. To those who play a game of vindication: - Dictator Siad Barre has not been vindicated by what happened post-1991. - Warlords have not been vindicated by what happened post-2006 - A.Yusuf has not been vindicated by what happened post-2008/9. They still remain guilty for we all remember the crimes they committed.

The injustices commited against the Somali civilians of Kenya continues unabated since the independence of Kenya in 1963. The Kenyan authorities are solely responsible for these injustices. On another note: The pastoral way of life is systematically undermining the Somali nation in overcoming petty differences in the face of state-led atrocities directed against the Somalis. It followed deadly clashes between the local Garre and Murulle clans Such petty conflicts are a result of the pastoral way of life which forces Somali groups to become hostile towards each other since the meagre resources can not sustain large population size. With the prospect of global warming and recurring droughts we can expect more of such conflicts between Somali pastoral groups which only reduces the total Somali population size in Kenya and thus aides the Kenyan authorities who would love to see the total subjugation of the Somali people in Kenya.

^^ Belial, They have a positive vision but thats not enough. They need to articulate every point in their vision and explain clearly why they propose what they propose. For example: - What is the alternative to the bankrupt tribal and regional politics? Do they have such an alternative? If so, let them explain it in detail. - How can the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Somalia be safeguarded? Again do they have the answer to this question? If so, let them present it so that we can discuss it. - Why is there a need for foreign soldiers? Foreign soldiers (even Muslim ones) are meant to provide security, right? Why are the Somalis themselves not capable in providing security for themselves? Somali Cause is superficial, they have broad outline of what needs to happen without elaborating on how we can make those things happen. With such a short outline of objectives without serious elaboration and discussion of the Somali environment (context) and what strategy and tactics one needs to adopt in order to achieve one's objectives you can bet that those behind Somali Cause will become reactionaries and run after events. Eventually they will become like Sh.Sharif and co and find themselves in a contradictory position. Thats the fate of those who do not reason well and map out their ideology complete with its strategy and tactics.

^^ We should trust only those that disclose their full program for we have learned the painfull lesson that even a socalled ''angel'' can turn into a ''devil'' tomorrow. We should suspect all those who propagate that they will bring change without articulating clearly what this change involves, and how they envision to bring about this change. That is if we want to learn from our mistakes.

^^ Belial, What would the religious leaders of ICU say to us if we asked them in 2006 the question: ''What if tommorow (in the future) Sh.Sharif becomes the same as those you want to eradicate because of their betrayal of the Somali nation?'' Would they take that question serious? Or simply answer: ''no, he will not become the same because we are different''. Thats why we should NEVER trust individuals who do not disclose their full program for the Somali nation and entertain us with simple retorics of ''jihad this, sharica that, ashahado-la-dirrir that''. We should NEVER put trust in invididuals and factions without asking CRITICAL QUESTIONS and scrutinizing all their actions and policies closely.

The above man was against Ethiopian invasion/occupation back in 2006/2007 and now is requesting Ethiopian invasion/occupation for what reason? The foreign-created regime is still the same no matter the new faces in it. Thats why individuals should not be trusted, and we should create institutions led and controled by Somalis themselves.

Midowga Afrika oo ka fekeraya in uu soo saaro go’aan ah in faragelin mileteri oo toos ah lagu sameeyo Soomaaliya Isniin, June 29, 2009(HOL): Codsigii ay Dowladda Soomaaliya u jeedisay Dalalka Beesha Caalamka iyo kuwa Soomaaliya la deriska ah ee ahaa in la badbaadiyo Dowladda Soomaaliya ayaa wuxuu baaqaas si weyn u soo jiitay Ururrada ay Soomaaliya ka tirsan tahay iyo Dowladaha Soomaaliya saaxibka la ah. Shir ay todobaadkan isugu imaanayaan madaxda Midowga Afrika ayaa waxaa la filayaa in laga soo saaro go’aan ah in faragelin toos ah lagu sameeyo Soomaaliya, si meesha looga saaro khatarta dhinaca ammaanka ah oo ay ku jirto Dowladda Soomaaliya. Si loo dhaqaaqiyo qorshaha ay dowladda Soomaaliya ku dooneyso in ciidamo lagu taageero ayaa waxaa magaalada Addis Ababa tegay Ra’iisal Wasaare ku xigeenka Soomaaliya, ahna Wasiirka Maaliyadda Shariif Xasan Shiikh Aadan oo dowladda Itoobiya iyo Midowga Afrikaba warsanaya in Ciidamo lagu taageero Dowladda Soomaaliya. Dowladda Itoobiya ayaa ciidamadeeda kala baxday Soomaaliya horraantii sanadkan, mana dooneyso hadda sida ay madaxdeedaba sheegeen inay Soomaaliya dib ugu noqoto iyadoo aan beesha caalamka ka helin ruqsad ay Soomaaliya ku gasho. Docda kale Magaalada Muqdisho ee Caasimadda Soomaaliya ayaa waxaa haatan ku sugan Ciidamo ka socda Dowladaha Uganda iyo Burundi, kuwaasi oo ilaalo ka haya Garoonka Diyaaradaha, Dekedda, Xarunta Villa Somalia iyo Isgoyska KM4, waxayna tahay howsha ciidamadaas nabad ilaalin kaliya. Ra’iisal Wasaare ku xigeenka Soomaaliya Shariif Xasan Shiikh Aadan ayaa sheegay in ay Soomaaliya joogaan ku dhawaan 2,000 oo dagaalyahanno shisheeye, kuwaasi oo sida uu yiri doonaya in ay xukunka ka tuuraan Dowladda Soomaaliya Shariif Xasan waxaa uu sheegay in uu shirka midowga Afrika horgeyn doono codsi ah in waajibaadka loo kordhiyo ciidamada Amisom, isla markaana howsha nabad ilaalinta ah ee ay hadda hayaan loogu daro mid nabad-dhalin ah. Intaas marka la helo ayuu sheegay Shariif Xasan Shiikh Aadan in ay Ciidamada Amisom niyad-dhisid helayaan, dadka Soomaaliyeedna ay ku kalsoonaan doonaan in Dowladda soomaaliya ay tahay mid nool oo is-difaaci karta, “Dad waan heysannaa na difaaca laakin waxaan u baahan nahay taageero caalami ah. Hadalka uu sii daayay Ra’iisal Wasaare ku xigeenka Soomaaliya Shariif Xasan Shiikh Aadan ayaa wuxuu ku soo beegmayaa iyadoo Ramtane Lamamra oo ka tirsan Golaha Ammaanka iyo Nabadgelyada Midowga Afrika uu sheegay in shirka Midowga Afrika ee todobaadkan dhacaya lagu taageeri doono codsigii Dowladda Soomaaliya ee ahaa in Ciidamo difaaca loo soo diro. Salaad Iidow Xasan (Xiis), Hiiraan Online sxiis@hiiraan.com Muqdisho, Soomaaliya

^^ It has Al-Qaida fingerprints all over it. That alone shows the international links of the extremists. They are far from a ''Somali movement'' as their supporters claim. The fact that the video is in Arabic already shows that it is produced by non-Somalis and ment for non-Somalis. It has also become ''xalaal'' for the extremists to maim dead bodies which goes against Islamic Law. It is really disturbing and sad to see how the religious pretenders and political pretenders have turned Somalia into a playground for all foreign powers to wage their proxy wars.

Me, You have missed the point of the whole comparison. Both USC and ICU are products of their environment. USC was created like the other jabhado as a reaction to the oppressive dictatorial regime that manipulated clan relations to prolong its own rule and corruption. The clan jabhado were a reaction to the mismanagment of the country by the dictatorial regime. ICU was created as a reaction to the anarchy and warlord regimes that manipulated clan relations to prolong the anarchy and their self-enrichment programmes. Ofcourse, in the creation of both the clan jabhado and the religious factions (ICU-Alshabab-Xisbi Islam), foreign powers were involved. We should not overlook the fact that the key leaders of Alshabab have been trained in Afganistan (a fact even acknowledged by Alshabab leaders) and that the ICU had foreign actors financing it. Nor should we overlook the fact that Xisbi Islam has received weapons, training and logistical support from Eritrea. I fail to understand how you can overlook the foreign links of the religious factions yet argue that USC was asisted by Italy and Ethiopia. Even if we look at the ideology of USC in 1991 and ICU in 2006 we can see that the whole ideology was based on a dismissal of the status quo and the propagation for a new era without elaborating on their programme for the new era and how past injustices would be corrected. The same attidute is now evident in the retorics of the new religious factions (Alshabab-XIsbi Islam) in ignoring serious discussion on how the new era which they struggle for would look like and how previous injustices could be corrected. The USC also had no ideology other than murdering and looting the property of people from certain clans You are either unaware of the circumstances that led to the creation of the clan jabhado and the leaders behind particularly USC or you are purposefully distorting history. It is like saying in about 5-10 years when the religious pretenders fail: '' ICU (all its factions) had no ideology other than cutting hands and declaring everybody Kaafir''. To make things clear, the main point of the comparison was to show that: ''factions should not be trusted upon their word and retorics and that we have to ask critical questions, even if the status quo is unbearable'' The other aspect of the comparison was the parallels between the radical wing of USC, namely the USC-SNA (alliance between Jess and Aideed) and the radical wing of the ICU (namely Xisbi Islam-Alshabab). We all remember how USC-SNA was propagating that they were fighting against foreign powers (UNISOM) and for the independence and unity of Somalia, which many people now dismiss as ''a war against foreigners not for the nation but for self-interest''. On the TFG We can all agree on the fact that the TFG is a foreign-created regime in which foreign powers have a major stake in it, control over it and which for its own survival depends on the resources and power of foreign actors. Secondly, we can all agree on the fact that half if not the whole TFG is composed of warlords, political pretenders and ignorant old men who have not what it takes to withstand the demands of the foreign powers and their agenda for Somalia. Lastly, we can all agree on the fact that the clan quota system is an unnatural and artificial mechanism for maintaining the clan divisions in Somalia and that such a basis for government is not in the best interest of Somalia. The above key facts are all known about the TFG and it makes it easy for people to denounce the entity as a faction that is not in the interest of the nation. The argument of the lesser evil The problem with Alshabab and Xisbi Islam supporters is that they compare themselves to such an undesired entity as the TFG which only makes it clear to all Somalis that the religious factions have nothing else to sell than been the lesser evil. Every time the actions and policies of the extremists, which unveil what is coming for the nation if they prevail, are discussed the supporters of those factions start to point finger to the TFG, Ethiopia, AMISOM etc in order to strengthen their argument of: ''We are the lesser evil, so support us''. It is time for Alshabab/Xisbi Islam supporters to propagate for their ideology and defend their policies and actions on their own merit instead of comparing themselves with the TFG, that is if they have an ideology and complete program as their supporters claim. Conclusion: Factions and their ideologies should be evaluated on their own merits and we should not find ourselves in a situation of comparing two evils to each other and searching for the lesser evil. We should denounce all evil and invest our time and effort in formulating an alternative programme for Somalia instead of wasting it in defending or justifying the actions of both camps.

^^ Depends on whether the Somalis can sort out their petty differences and start working towards rebuilding the nation. We should not haste in regaining the lost territories as that was the mistake of the previous Somali Republic. All effort and time must be invested in the 7, while the plight of those living under foreign rule should not be forgotten.

The extremist Alshabab is repeating the mistakes of those before it: Fake Justice with dire consequences for the victims. -------------------- -------------------- ---- The Plight of a Double Amputee By Abdirahman Aynte Washington, DC Friday, June 26, 2009 When a militia loyal to al-Shabaab recently amputated the wrists and the feet of four young men in Mogadishu, no one felt the implications better than Abdi, a double amputee who led a difficult life without his right hand and left foot for nearly a decade. The 31-year-old, Mogadishu resident, who asked us not to use his full name because he feared repercussions, said the recent amputations reminded him of a horrible chapter in his life. "It's a very bad and a very sad feeling," he said in an exclusive interview with the VOA Somali Service. "If you lose your hand and foot judiciously, it’s understandable. But if you lose them injudiciously...that haunts me to date." In a graphic account of his story, Abdi said that a man he worked for as a driver accused him of looting, stealing and injuring another man, an allegation he adamantly denies. A clan court in northern Mogadishu then condemned him to double amputation, “without sufficient evidence, due process or nothing,” he said. It was a hot September day in 1999, said Abdi, when he was summoned to an open field, chained in the hands and the legs. A few hours into a “hasty hearing,” Abdi said four men held him to the ground while a masked man cut off his right hand and left leg with a machete. Asked if he was anesthetized to relief the pain, Abdi lamented: “No, not at all. They cut my beloved hand and feet forcefully, and in an excruciating pain.” With no medical attention on hand, Abdi said he almost bled to death before being rushed to a nearby hospital. He was discharged after only one day of treatment. The untreated injuries he sustained pain him to date, he said. When Abdi learned about this week’s amputations in Mogadishu, he said he realized that the four young men will “enter a dark chapter of their young life, undeservedly.” The clan court that sentenced Abdi and potentially dozens of others to amputations no longer exists, a fact not lost to Abdi. “It pains me so much that I lost my hand and my foot to selective justice. It saddens me immeasurably.” Muslim scholars say al-Shabaab’s swift application of the harshest codes in Sharia law is categorically un-Islamic. Such precipitous sentencing ignores a crucial jurisprudence that stipulates that every possible excuse must be exhausted before one is condemned to amputation, said Sharif Abdirahman, the imam of Darul-Hijra Islamic Center in Minneapolis. The high evidentiary bar set for such harsh sentences, said the imam, renders it almost impossible to implement them. “The harsh penal codes are essentially designed as a preventative measure,” he added, “that’s why it was historically implemented only in exceptionally rare circumstances.” In addition, the imam said the implementing party must be the legal authority of the land, and must control the jurisdiction permanently---none of which applies to al-Shabaab. Meanwhile, Abdi, who like the recently amputated young men was never afforded an attorney, says life without his hand and foot has been unusually onerous. Asked what advice he would give al-Shabaab, he said people must be taught the Islamic faith so that they know what they are signing up for, before their body parts are cut off. “Justice must not be applied expeditiously. People have the right to know the rules of the game,” he said, grudgingly. Source: VOA, June 26, 2006