Duke, You should reason instead of resorting to simple retorics. The ''1/3 landsize'' is part of Somalia and the people are Somalis. Their loyalty should first of all be to a central Somali state (when this emerges) and secondly to their region/province. The clan-based mini-states are a clear threat to the future of the Somali nation and a clear obstacle to the emergence and functioning of a strong central Somali state. Am still waiting for your answers: Can you explain us in detail what the relationship is (or will be) between the central Somali state and let's say 'Puntland' (representing a clan-based mini-state). Is a central Somali state effective in defending and advancing the interest of the Somali nation (All Somali clans/groups=Somali nation) if there are within it multiple clan-based mini-states? You are an ardanent supporter of Clan-based Federalism. Will it be on the basis of clan? subclan? sub-subclan?

Lets see whether Duke makes valid points. Originally posted by General Duke: The Puntland model already works in the US, Germany, Australia, India and various other countries. . On what do you base your claim? Germany, US, Australia have decentralized state systems that have evolved slowly but steadily throughout the centuries. The central states of those countries were very strong and effective in the beginning. Slowly, due to new organizational insights, the central states of those countries devolved some responsibilities to the lower tiers of governments, i.e that of provinces, districts, cities etc. Ofcourse, the USA is a special case in which the governance system is rooted in their history and existence. But even in the US, the central state is powerful and does not find itself in an awkward situation where it is pressured by the Federal states and where it has to ''negotiate'' basic state affaires with the federal states. The 'Puntland' model is one that leads to the creation of mini-states that encroach on the responsibilities of a central state. In the near future, when a central Somali state emerges, it will face pressure from the mini-states which will weaken the effectiveness of the central state and eventually lead to the weakening of the Somali nation. What makes the 'Puntland' model more problematic is the fact that it is based on Clannism. It is a clan entity that masquerades as a state. And if other clans follow this trend we will witness a situation whereby a central Somali state that strives towards the unification of the different Somali groups and development/advancem ent of the Somali nation, will constantly find itself at odds with the clan-based mini-states that strive towards goals limited to their clans. A central Somali state that is constantly engaged in a struggle with clan-based mini-states will have no time, resources and space to defend the Somali interest on the world stage and can hardly defend the Somali nation from external threats. Originally posted by General Duke: A Federal republic where you can even negotiate with Somaliland, [centralism will not do there]. Since the collapse of the central Somali state and the ensuing civil war there have emerged different opportunistic groups that all tried to benefit from the state collapse and ensuing division and animosity. We had all kinds of opportunists that benefitted directly and indirectly from the situation of statelessness and division. The warlords, political pretenders, secessionists, clannists, criminals, war-profiteers all thrived during the period of statelessness and division and as such would do everything possible to prevent the re-emergence of a Somali central state and the unification of the Somali nation. There should be no negotiation with these groups that have benefitted from the statelessness and have propagated for divisive political agenda’s. A Somali central state will look to the Somali nation collectively, and come up with a solution that satisfies the needs and wishes of the collective. Every Somali clan wants security for their people and deegaans, development for their people and deegaans. A Somali central state will look at the Somali nation’s need for security and development, and in this all Somali clans are included. The Somali central state should never negotiate with a particular clan. There is no negotiation with groups that push forward divisive political agendas, such opportunists and profiteers of division must be isolated and rehabilitated. There must be a solution that satisfies the Somali nation (all Somali groups) and one should not negotiate with a particular clan to search for a compromise/solution. Originally posted by General Duke: A nation who’s population have deep mistrust of the central authority considering the experience we have had with Barre and warlords like Aydeed & others who wanted to replace Barre. . There is deep mistrust of authoritarian government structure (dictatorship). To clarify things further: there is deep mistrust of a central authoritarian state that fails to rise above clan-structured Somali society and finds itself influenced by particular clans. That is what all Somali groups fear and oppose, and it is a legitimate fear. Opportunists would use that legitimate fear to push political agenda’s that run against the interest of the Somali nation: secessionism, and clan-based mini-states. Duke, Can you explain us in detail what the relationship is (or will be) between the central Somali state and let's say 'Puntland' (representing a clan-based mini-state). Is a central Somali state effective in defending and advancing the interest of the Somali nation (All Somali clans/groups=Somali nation) if there are within it multiple clan-based mini-states?

Maamul Goboleed=regional/pr ovincial administration. The future of Somalia lies in having a strong central state with provincial administrations that take care of provincial affaires and do not compete with the central state in key area's. The 'Puntland' model will lead to the creation of mini states that not only obstruct the emergence of a strong Somali central state but will compete with the central state in the future in key area's. It is imperative to undermine the clan-state agenda of 'Puntland' like the clan-secessionist agenda of 'Somaliland' has been undermined. SYL: Qabiil Qaran ma dhiso http://www.mudugnet. com/Audioxo1/Umadyah eey.ram Umad yahey Qabiilkiyo Qaranimadu by Kooxda General Da'uud ee Waqooyi Galbeed

Originally posted by Fabregas: ^^ I'll only agree if you add your beloved ahlul summ-ah wal habash and muqdisho society to the list of warlords. otherwise; holier than thou stuff and nonsense as ever. ahlu Sunnah are part of the new trend of religious warlordism. As for professors, students, women organizations, elders and religious leaders, those cannot be warlords. Do not get blinded by your support to warlords (religious form).

Fabgregas, Warlords (including the extremists and religious pretenders) are indeed not the way forward. Their downfall would surely benefit Somalia. Hiiraan will stay in turmoil as long as warlords of different shapes and colours roam freely.

The one who has been reduced to ''gacan ma siin doona mise ma salaami doono'' is the true bitter one. LOOL

LOOL sheekadii waxey noqotay gacan ma siindoonaa LOOL That alone says enough about the bitterness of the Yusufites.

Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiy aar: And yet another trolling one, a waste of bandwidth. And the initiator of this thread is this same person who wrote this when Nuur Cadde was said to meet Ms. Rice, then Secretary of State: "Landmark meeting overlooked by the SOL die hards but why?." And when the biggest Xabashi stooge wanted to meet Ms. Rice, the same initiator of this thread was bombarding the site, salivating. Then again, nothing new from a certain person. Wishing Soomaaliya, the nation, the republic to not get from its feet of dragging civil wars and once again be among the respected nations of this world -- only because of xaasidnimo, only because the biggest stooge Soomaalis had seen did not succeed to lead, with his miserable failure. Soomaaliya is a nation, it is not beholden to an individual or a special interest group. Soomaaliya ma'aha jaraanjar meel lagu gaaraayo, oo dan qabyaaladeed laga leeyahay. Soomaaliya is nation oo Soomaalida ka dhaxeyso, it is not dal lagu gorgortamaayo meel lagu gaaro la rabo for selfish reasons. Soomaaliya cannot be a jaraanjar lagu koraayo meel one wants enrich one's self. No, no, and no. Well-said. Hadana sheegada Dukey iyo Co waxey gaartey ''gacan ma siin doona mise wuu ka diidi doona''

Gheelle.T I will ask questions untill most SOL members wake up from their habit of chosing a faction and supporting it blindly. It is time SOL nomads use their brains for once and start asking questions instead of blindly supporting sides or accepting the status-quo!

Xiin, Answer the questions raised in this thread or step a side and let other TFG supporters try to spinn the obvious contradiction in this situation. ''Internationally recognized government'' but still not enjoying the same treatment and procedure given to other recognized governments of other countries is a clear contradiction.

^^ There is no value in fake recognition (lipservice). The whole argument of ''Internationally recognized'' is a hoax! How can you say to recognize a government of an independent nation-state while on the other hand you do not even give its officials the proper treatment like in the case of other state officials of other countries? The whole notion of ''internationally recognized'' is a clever way to create a paper regime that you can adress to when it comes to interfering into Somali affaires. Again, my question to you and other TFG supporters: On what is the argument of ''internationally recogned legitimate government of Somalia'' based? Sitting at UN meetings?

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: Miijiyye, i picket a celebratory udertone from the title of this post brother,and wanted to point out one cannot speak from the both sides of his mouth tfg is what we have and we support, and it will insha Allah transition the country from teh current state to a better one ^^ There is no celebratory undertone, but the title of the thread is a direct English translation of the title HiiraanOnline used for its news-article. HiiraanOnline: EU & ITALY oo markii ugu horeysay aqoonsi buuxa siiyey Safiir ay Somalia yeelato English translations: First Somali man recognized as Ambassador by EU & Italy since 1991. Again, my question has not been answered: If the ''International community'' recognizes this foreign-created paper government as the ''legitimate Somali government'' why dont they also extent this recognition to the officials of the ''legitimate Somali government''. How come Italy and EU have recognized Nur Adde as the first Ambassador of Somalia to those countries? Why not before? PS: Meiji is Japanese, give it the proper Somali translation or pronounce it as the Japanese do ''Meiji''

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: ^^But again he represents a foreign entity called tfg, and not the famous M-Society Xiin, The TFG is a foreign-created regime and thats a fact which can not be changed. I am puzzled at the hypocricy of Italy and EU to on one hand recognize for the first time a Somali man as an ambassador while they gave 19 years lip-service (recognition) to every foreign-created regime that existed. PS: What has Mogadishu to do with this? Dont turn this into a clan nonsense, Nur Adde is closer to you (a die-hard tfg supporter) than to me.

I wonder how it is possible for the ''International community'' to recognize on one hand ''a somali paper government'' while on the other hand deny recognition to its ''ambassadors'' once those men are in the foreign countries that make up this ''international community'' For example, the EU and US give lipservice to the current regime that was created in Jabuti, on the other hand they give not the ambassodors and members of this regime full recognition as is the case with the state officials of other countries.

EU & ITALY oo markii ugu horeysay aqoonsi buuxa siiyey Safiir ay Somalia yeelato War Saxaafadeed Madaxweynaha Jamhuuriyadda Soomaliya Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed ayaa bishii May u magacaabay Nur Hassan Hussein (Nur Adde) inuu Safiir ka noqdo Dowladda Talyaaniga, isla markaana uu noqdo Safiirka Midowga Yurub. Talyaaniga iyo Midowga Yurub waxey ka soo jawaabeen magacaabistaas Safiirnimo. Nur Hassan Hussein (Nur Adde) ayaa maalintii Isniintii 27kii July 2009 si heer Safiirnimo ah loogu soo dhoweeyey magaalada Rome. Wasaaradda Arrimaha Dibedda ee Talyaaniga ayaa maalintii Talaadadii 28kii July 2009 u oggolaatay Nur Adde inuu howshiisii Safiirnimo uu bilaabi karo. Waa markii ugu horreysay ee Dowladda Talyaaniga ay aqoonsi buuxda siiso Safiir Soomaaliyeed oo fadhigiisa noqdo magaalada Rome muddo 19 sano ka dib. Midowga Yurub (EU) ayaa warqad ay uga jawaabayeen magacaabistii Nur Adde ku caddeeyey inay aqbaleen Nur Adde in uu noqdo Safiirka Somalia u fadhiya Midowga Yurub. Waa markii ugu horreysey ee Midowga Yurub ay aqoonsi buuxda siiyaan Safiir Soomaaliyeed muddo 19 sano ka dib. Magacaabista Nur Adde ayaa qeyb ka aheyd heshiiskii dib-u-heshiisiinta ee Djibouti. Aqoonsiga dowladda Talyaaniga iyo Midowga Yurub ayaa ah astaan xoogan oo muujineysa xiriirka wanaagsan ee ay dowladda FKMG ah la leedahay Dowladda Talyaaniga iyo Midowga Yurub. Madaxweyne Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed ayaa sheegay inuu kalsooni ku qabo in Nur Adde uu u adeegi doono waddankiisa iyo ummadiisa, xilkana u gudan doono si wadaninimo iyo xilkasnimo ku dheehan. http://www.hiiraan.c om/news2/2009/july/w ararka_maanta29-7093 .htm

^^ To be given the cold shower by Congressman Payne, forget meeting with US secretary of state

Walaalaha Al xisbul islaami & Al shabaab maxaa ka hortaagan hal maamul iyo hal magacay oo ay ku midaysanyihiin inay sameystaan maadaama hal hadaf ay u dagaalamayaan oo ah in Soomaaliya laga hirgaliyo dawlad islaam ah oo shareecada islaamka dastuurkeedu yahay. Marka xigta isku duubnida & midnimadu waa quwada ugu weyn ee cadawga looga guuleeysto ilaahayna uu jecelyahay mujaahidiinta inay hal saf noqdaan. Qur’aan( Ilaahey wuxuu jecelyahay kuwa ku dagaalama jidkiisa ayagoo hal saf ah ayagoo aad moodo dhismo isku dhagan oo aad u adag.)Suuratul saffi. wixii aan khalday allaha iga cafiyo. http://www.somalimir ror.com/2009/07/27/x isbul-islaam-oo-maam ul-u-sameeyay-gbanaa ***/ Kashafa, Red-Sea/Fabregas and any other religious pretenders-supporter . Can you answer this legitimate question raised by a sincere Somali man who wants to see an independent Somalia and a genuine Islamic government in our country? Why can't the religious pretenders form one party and administration for the regions they control? Or is their alliance one of convenience and will they turn the guns on themselves afterwards? PS: I am sadened that this sincere Somali man will be disillisioned and dissapointed after he discovers the true nature of the religious pretenders: their hunger for power and abuse of our pure religion as a cover.

The religious pretenders are already divided and should not be supported in taking over Somalia since that will mean another conflict between them for the spoils of war.

Xisbi Islam VS Alshabab ''governor of Banadir'' VS Islamic government ''governor of Banadir''

Macalin Xaashi mise Cali Maxamed Xuseen, Gudoomiyaha Gobolka Banaadir ama Waaliga Wilaayada Banaadir Macalin Xaashi mise Cali Maxamed Xuseen, Gudoomiyaha Gobolka Banaadir ama Waaliga Wilaayada Banaadir Waa labo nin oo marka la eego ka soo wada jeeda Degmada Balcad ee G/Sh/dhexe ,waxay xilal ka soo qabteen xilligii Maxkamadaha, jufo ahaanse waa isu dhow yahay,waxay ka tirsan yihiin Labo urur oo aan ahdaaftiisa aanu isku mid aheyn kalana ujeedo ah , waxay ka soo wada jeedaan Beesha Reer Mataan ama Mataan Cabduulle ee lahaanshahooda lagu tiriyo Gobolka Banaadir. Cali Maxamed Xuseen waxay horaantii sanadkan Xarakada Alshabaab u magacaabeen inuu yahay Gudoomiyaha Gobolka Banaadir (Waaliga Wilaayada Banaadir) tan iyo xilligaas waxaa uu hormuud ka noqday howlaha Alshabaab ka wado Banaadir, xilligaasoo deegaanada uu ka soo jeedo ee Waqooyiga Muqdisho loogu arkayay inuu loo xusul duubi karo. Dhismaha Maamulkaas waxay dad badan u arkayeen mid daba socoto arrimo markii hore sir loo arkayay, kaas oo ku qayixnaa beelaha lahaanshahooda lagu tiriyo ee uu ka soo jeedo Cali Maxaa Xuseen gaar ahaan Mataan Cabdulle. Shabaab danaha ay ka leedahay Banaadir oo ahaa mid waafi ahaa ayaa hadana u soo hoos-gashay shaqsi la dhihi karo waa uu ka soo jeedaa ama beesha uu ka dhashay ayaa ka dhex muuqan karta hogaanka Gobolka Banaadir. Macalin Xaashi oo ah nin siyaasada ka raaca marba dhinac, laguna tilmaamo nin ay dabeyshu u wado dhinac kasta ka bilow Min Muuse Suudi ilaa Maxkamadihii ma jirin meel uu si rasmi u caga dhigtay ama uu ku negaado, xilli wareysi siiyay idaacadaha Muqdisho wuxuu sheegtay inuu yahay xubin ka tirsan Alshabaab balse markii dambe ayaa la sheegay in laga saaray, waxaana markii dambe isku magacaabay Ururka Kacdoonka Xamar iyo Xamar daye oo beel ahaan uga soo jeedo. Hadase waxay doorka kama dambeysta ah ku geysay isagoo ah Gudoomiyaha Gobolka Banaadir ee hoos-taga Ururka Xisbul Islaam, taasoo maanta lagu dhawaaqay, waxaana uu ka mid noqonayaa hogaanada u magacaaban Gobolka ee gaaraya ilaa saddexda xubnood, waxaase su'aasha taagan ay tahay yey madax u yihiin halkeese ka taliyaan iyaguse ma isu taliyaan. Ma cada sida ay iskula bar bar shaqeyn karaan labada maamul ee u muuqda midi midi ku taagta, laakiin waxaa muuqda in labada nin madaxa la isula gelinayo danaha shaqsiyaad gaar ka leeyihiin Gobolka Banaadir, waxaana doorar muuqda ku lahaayeen dagaaladii Waqooyiga Muqdisho ee lagu sal kiciyay boqolaal kun ee ku dhaqnaa magalada Muqdisho, waana mid ka mid ah tallaabooyinka la dhihi karo waa uu ku helay xilkan Macalin Xaashi. Jowhar News Desk jowharnews@gmail.com Hoyga wararka Somaliyed www.Jowhar.com Jowharcom@hotmail.co m Jowharcom@gmail.com Mahad on July 27 2009 16:28:24 ·

^^ You should learn to read. Somali soldiers took over Beledweyn. The Ethiopians are in Kalabery and Ceel Gaal, 18-20 km from the city.

On what grounds is that ''legitimacy'' based??

The religious warlords (Xisbi islam) have created a fake administration for Banadir next to the already existing fake administration of the extremists (Alshabab) and the foreign-created government. The religious warlords of Xisbi Islam have administrations for: - Lower Shabelle, with Afgoye and Wan.laweyn as main cities were they reign. - Baay, with Buur Hakaba were they reign - Hiiraan, where they are holed up in some districts of Beledweyne and call that an ‘administration’ - Benadir, where they have few street blocks in Hodan and Howlwadaag. - Gedo, where they have a presence in Luuq and Garbaharey On the other hand, The religious warlords of Alshabab have administrations for: - Lower Shabelle, with Merca and Barawe as main cities were they reign. - Lower/Middle Jubba, where they share power with Xisbi Islam - Gedo, were they have a joing military presence in Baardheere and other districts of the region. - Banadir, were they have a presence in some districts. - Baay/Bakool, were they have sole control over Bakool but share some districts with Xisbi Islam in Baay. - Middle Shabelle, were they share power and control with Xisbi Islam and previous key leaders of ICU. On the third front, we have the socalled Islamic government (foreign-created regime) that has some administrations for: - Banadir, in which they control majority of districts. - Hiiraan, which mainly they control. - Gedo, were they are present in border towns. - M.Shabelle - Baay/Bakool, were they are in border-towns This again proves that the current conflict is one about political power and not ideology. All factions say that they are working for the Somali nation, but their actions tell a different story: they are fighting for political power for their own benefit. They want to fill the void the previous warlords left and become the new ''bosses in town''.

Red-Sea, All injustices that have been committed in Somalia need to corrected. And Insha Allah they will be corrected. Alshabab is committing more injustices so how can they be the ''one'' to corrrect past injustices? MMA, Understood. Mogadishu is a city were most of us are born and bred. Insha allah that city will have peace and prosperity again.

Originally posted by Red Sea: Hiiraan yaa daga? miyaanay ehel iyo xidid ba la laheen dadka xamar (ubadan). Still M society= clan. Simple. And anyone who isn't this clan and In Muqdisho is a foreigner according Mejji( yare ) so much for nationalism! :mad: As I thought, your clannist-secessionis t mind can not comprehend simple views that trascend clannism. And ironnically it is you, with a clan-infested mind, who started a thread about Ahmed Godane and his Jihadist message. Judging from your clan-infested mind I can safely say that you would never have noticed the message, let alone dedicated a whole thread to it, if it came from let's say Abu Mansuur or Hassan Aweys. In conclusion: I would never trust people like you when they talk about Jihad while not practicing what they preach. As for Naxar-Nugaaleed Aren't you a refugee like 100% of the people on SOL