Is it me or are we seeing Mr. Red Sea agreeing with Herr General Duke? Aduunyo dheh. It seems that all the supporters of injustice are joining hands. First they started a coalition against 'terror', while they were the real terrorists. Then when they were defeated they ran to Baydhabo. When Kismayo was taken they ran to Baydhabo. Puntland is shaking they look at Baydhabo. Somaliland is giving birth to a revolution and yes they too are looking at Baydhabo for help. Mr. Red Sea, how times have changed heh? You and herr General on the same side.

^^Togdheer is a part of Somalia.

^^ OK so now you agree with me Anyhow, the most populous area in Somalia is area around the rivers. It is estimated that that area alone holds 40% of Somali's population ( the triangle of Afgooye, Baydhabo, Kismayo). We rarely count those people because they do not belong to the militarized clans. But in terms of numbers they do matter and in a democracy we would all be learning their dialects and customs.

Originally posted by NGONGE: You’ve got to love the purity of Somali politics and the way it ebbs and flows in unexpected ways. Somebody should start teaching this stuff and pointing out the beauty in which alliances are forged, discarded and forged again with extraordinary ease.

This is wonderful news for all those would like to see a united Somalia. Talking is always good, even if the two sides will disagree it is positive sign for the people of Somali that at least the politician are talking instead of warring! The funny thing here is. Yesterday and the day before the media was reporting that the secessionist mafia's foreign minister went to Addis Ababa to request for Ethiopian troops and no one was protesting here on SOL, but as soon as some people here hear that there has been a meeting between the TFG and the Secessionist mafia, there are people pulling faces and tasting irrational hatred in their mouth. It funny indeed. Some people here would rather have our people at the mercy of our common enemy then to see the Somali brothers talk out their differences.

Dear Jaylaani & Mr. Red Sea, would it not be better if we spent our time having conversations or debates that matter? This kind of name callings and 'joking' around is irrelivant. Either discuss the issues that have been raised or simply shut up. Thank you. Che, please let these people go. They grow on name-callings, engage them at your own terms and them drop them when you feel like it. Thats the best way in dealing with them. Never let themderail any of your topics. Thank you.

magan galyaa lagu siiyay , waa lagu madax furtay.

Che sharaftaada ayaan kuwan ku daynayaa. Adaa madaxooda furtay!

Man thats some reply!!! K'naan rocks! K'naan UK tour & workshops check out his website!

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea: First, if you don't mind looking at the heroes of Goday, Harer,Jigjiga, the pilots that were never seen again which were shot down right out of the sky above the territories you just mentioned, significant numbers of them happened to be from Hargeysa and Burco during the struggle to liberate the terrirotries in which you have mentioned.Did they not fight with loyalty and pride? wer Ok please tell me what the link is that you are trying to prove here between the SNM and the SNA members from Hargeysa and Burco? The SNA members from Hargeysa and Burco that fought gallantly for their nation have always been recognized and honoured by their nation and will forever be honoured by a grateful nation. Do not besmear the honour of those men by levelling them with the collaborationist rebels of the SNM. The only thing that those soldiers of the SNA and the SNM had in common was their towns and maybe a clan, but politically they were as far apart as any two groups can be. The SNA members were Pan-Somalist, while the SNM members were secessionist The SNA members were Somali Nationalists, while the SNM were collaborationists The SNA members gave their lives for their nation, while the SNM was working with the same enemy that killed the SNA soldiers. The SNA soldiers where hero’s of the Somali Nation, while the SNM were the traitors of the Somali Nation So I ask you Mr. Red Sea how can you put those two groups of men in the same category? Are you claiming that because of only ‘clan’ affiliation they have the same political motives and objectives? Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea: Saaxib,that was direct statement, maybe you got over heated a bit, so read what I said again one more time.I don't think I justified or I had anything to add to what happened between you and Oodweyne,simply mr.Oodweyne suggested that you deserve no reply,so my answer was why not I make you earn your way up, if you have to post such idiotic topic, which quite honestly considering your points,deserves none. Have you read what Mr. Oodweyne wrote or is this your hypocrisy at work again? Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea: As pointed out to you today, what was under SNA military is no longer there,Barre is no longer there(died, will be judged by the Lord,let us leave it at that). Just because the SNA is gone and Siyaad Barre is dead doesn’t mean that some people have the right to lie constantly about history. This is Somali history and it should be objectively written and judged. Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea: You seem to be losing any key points, if there were hardly any to begin with. You accused the SNM of miscalculations,you have also made some bad miscalculations in this thread by forgetting that this took place only 17 years ago. Ok so things that happened 17 years ago can not be discussed? Even if they play a major part in what’s happening today? The three original points that I have raised have not been refuted by any arguments and they still stand. After 5 pages and countless replies still no one has refuted these 3 points. Maybe some people here on SOL should concentrate their energy in looking into these points rather than childish personal attacks. 1. The SNM betrayed the Somali Nation and the Somali people by collaborating with the enemy of Somalia. 2. The SNM sacrificed and made the people of Hargeysa and Burco suffer for their own selfish gains. 3. The SNM was beaten by the Somali National army and this can be proven by the fact that the day that Mogadisho fell to the USC not one single village was in SNM hands.

^^ The whole North of Somalia has 1/3 of the Somali population. The rest of the country has the remaining 2/3. So we can guess that if the secessionists are 2/3's of the people of the North then they are about 20% of the population of The Somali Republic. This is ofcourse a gestimate. If you believe you have a different gestimate please share.

Mr. Red Sea, Thank you for raising the issue of taxpayer’s money. The tax money that was collected from all cities in the country was used to finance these projects. So it’s not the people of Garbahaarey that got an Airport but the people of Hargeysa. It was not the people of Hobyo that got a Seaport but the people of Berbera. So yes it is the SOMALI PEOPLE from all regions of the country that financed these projects. Yes there was foreign aid money, but that foreign aid money was intended for the WHOLE country not just a certain area of the country. The secessionist entity has only 20% of the total population of the Somali republic, keep that in mind. Secondly the unfairness of the investment allocation to certain areas of the country can be seen by the per capita investment per region that the former regime made. The North West is as populous as Bari region yet it got far bigger share in government investment then Bari. So when we argue about Siyaad Barre's regime we should take these matters into consideration.

Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea: I was basically highlighting the point you made about the SNM commiting treason, in which my response was,the SNM already had an enemy,the fascist regime of Barre, therefore treason or otherwise, the Barre regime wouldn't have done them a favor neither,because they were in conflict. So you are saying the SNM was fighting Siyaad Barre and therefore they were allowed to use any means possible including collaborating with the Somali enemy in a time of war. However this line of thinking highlights the SNM’s low regard for the Somali people’s interest. It was not Siyaad Barre that was at war with Ethiopia, but SOMALIA. So by collaborating with an external enemy whose aim was to keep the occupied Somali territories and even annex additional Somali territories shows us the SNM didn’t respect the wishes of the Somali people. It is very much understandable how the men and woman of Kismayo, Gaalkacyo, Barawe reacted to the collaboration of the SNM with the enemy of Somalia in a time of war. People all over Somalia saw the actions of SNM as subversive and treasonous. The SNM did not make any friends with its collaborationist agenda. Siyaad Barre was right in his countering of SNM aggression. He was the head of the state and it was his job to protect the nation against all enemies internal as well as external. Any leader in his position will make the same decision he made, maybe a different tactic but the same principle. Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea: The fact that you have stated history in North starts in 1988 war is a proof that you have alot of catching up to do. I don’t think you expect us to discuss the full history of the region. I made a conscious decision to focus on the events of May 1988, the reason for this is because the moment the SNM moved into the cities with just 1500 men they crossed the final line and there was no turning back for North Western Somalia. Originally posted by Mr. Red Sea: To oodweyen, sxb.if Mr. Me asked for it, why not,I must go ahead and give the kid an early birthday present, just in time to say Ciid Mubarak. Of course in a true ‘Islamic’ way Mr. Red Sea . So I asked for al the name-calling and death treats by raising issues that concern us all? That shows us allot Mr. Red Sea, your Jackyl & Hyde, your double facedness tells us enough. All this name-calling and death treats show the dear SOL public one thing and that’s what all ya’ll folks is claiming is built on lies. Re-writing history will not save certain sections of the Somali Nation. We are all present here today and we are all taking notes. The declassified documents of the British Government will be a goldmine for Somali historians that want to know more about the subject. History will certainly be a cruel judge.

Originally posted by Northerner: If you are emplying that the people not of Somaliland were the initial investors, then you may have a case. Come to Burco for collection ps will you refund me the money i spent on rebuilding my house that was bombed? youknowmsayin,,, Ofcourse there is a case. The Somali people represented by the Somali government has initiated these projects and funded it. The Somali people has teh right to use these facilities without any cost or atleast refunded. The matter of your bombed house is another case. However if you want to blame the Somali people for that then the people of the North West can be blamed for the actions of high officers hailing from North West regions and their brutal treatment of Somalis in Mudug, Bari, Nugaal in the late 70's and early 80's.

No ungreatfulness resulted in a war. Lets see what 16 years brought you, except a lick of paint, you are still looking at a mirage. So we can argue that the Somali people own Berbera port, Hargeysa Airport and the roads in the North West. It was the Somali peoples tax money that paid for it. How about some compensation?

^^A lick of paint and call it a moderanization Ungreatful bunch. The North West was one of the regions in Somalia that got heavy investment from the former regime. That can never be denied. The North West got an unfair share from the national budgets. It had higher investment per capita then any other region except Banadir.

^^That skull can be from a victim of the 'clan-cleansing' perpetrated by the SNM. This picture proves nothing. However you not answering a direct question proves allot. The port was built by the Somali Republic The airport was built by the Somali Republic The roads were built by the Somali Republic The secessionist mafia has built NOTHING of any significance. So there you go, after 16 years under the rule of the secessionist mafia you are still producing pictures that prove the goodwill of the people of the Somali Republic towards their brothers in the North West.

^^I asked you who built the Port, the Airport and the roads? and are you still claiming that that picture with the 5 churches is Borame?

Dear Jimcaale, This is an open forum and there are no sacred cows here. There is nothing of limits here. We are free to discuss all topics as long as we respect each other. Some members of this forum lack manners and proper education. They are not capable of discussing anything without resorting to profanities, vicious personal attacks or mud slinging. We are discussing historic facts here. The events of May 1988 have affected our lives in major ways and we are in our full rights to discuss what happened back then. To understand today’s Northern Somalia we need to go back to May 1988. There is nothing provocative about discussing these issues. We need to encourage each other in discussing issues like this. We need to start thinking critically. We need to engage each other in debates and come to fruitful conclusions. We should break these barriers down and one of the ways of breaking these barriers down is re-examining the history of the conflict.

Originally posted by Oodweyne: Waxaan kuu sheegayaa, ********** **********, adoo kale dooxii hargeisa ayaan kugu soo aaasi lahaa, adoo nool; oo waliba cidna ikaa weydiiseen,*********, wakaa qiimahaagu,... I rest my case. [ October 17, 2006, 00:49: Message edited by: Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar ]

Who built the port? who built the airport? who built the roads? Yes you are right The Somali Republic! not the secessionist mafia, so no need to include those pictures in the secessionist propaganda. Be thankful for what the Somali Republic has done for the North West. You don’t have to look very closely to see that this is not Borame and that in the picture you can see allot of churches

^^Odaygan cay un baa ka soo hadhay. War isku xishood. Sidii nin rag ah u dood ama u kaftan, sidii dhoocil yar meel walba cay ha la soo istaagin. Mr. Red Sea baa la arkaa nin si fiican u doodaya, kuwiinan kale wax kabarta.

So you do agree with me, the towns needed to be recaptured no matter what the cost. I am very much justifying the army’s goals in recapturing the towns. I am also supporting the army’s goals in eradicating the rebels. The army was operating within the boundaries of the law. The rebels attacked the cities, they were the aggressors, and they put the civilians in harms way. Imagine if a bank robber enters a bank with a gun and takes hostages, the police come and surround the building. The police want to end this situation as soon as possible. They want to either arrest of kill the bank robber. The public expect the police to do its job. The public expect to be protected from the bank robbers. If while trying to arrest the bank robber the police kill a hostage then it is the bank robber that is responsible. It is the bank robber that put the hostage in harms way not the police. What you are arguing about is the tactic that the SNA used not the principle. The SNA was right in recapturing the cities. You disagree with the tactics though.

^^^ wrong. It is not were the people live, it’s their attitudes towards knowledge. There are Muslims in Albania, Bosnia, Chechnya etc etc and they are all part of Europe, why aren't the Muslims in those areas winning Nobel prizes? If it’s only about geographical location I might win a Nobel Prize. We are comparing religions so we are comparing two apples. The Jews are more active in the sciences then the Muslims and the Nobel Prize proves it. The Muslims are lagging behind because they are not as active in knowledge gathering as are other religions. Speaking about Jews and knowledge, there was this theory that the Jews enlightened Europe. Jewish scientists and artisans came with the Muslim conquerors of Spain and they settled in Spain. After the Muslims were kicked out of Spain the Jews remained and started serving the Spanish court and the rest is history.

Mr. Red Sea, No matter how much you would like it. In the army orders are not disobeyed. That’s how the whole game works, you disobey you get shot! Secondly Today if American Rebels attack New York, the US Army will not hesitate to bomb them to the stone age. If Birmingham is captured by English rebels, the British Army will bomb the city and use all means at its disposal to recapture the city. That’s how the game is. You did not expect that the Somali Army would let the rebels hold the towns did you? What did you expect that the Somali army to do? All national armies are trained to defend the land against all enemies, external as well as internal. The only thing that the SNA did wrong was it heavy handedness, they should have captured and killed each and every rebel, but they should have limited the civilian casualties and collateral damage.