Paragon, You have said: We can either be sentimental about it or sensible. • Do you consider Sharifs insistence on foreign troops, including Ethiopian troops sentimental or sensible? • Do you consider the giving away of Somali territorial waters by Sharif's TFG sentimental or sensible? • Do you consider the way the TFG part 1 and Part 2 have been operating sentimental or sensible? • What is your vision of Somalia under perfect TFG governance? • Where do you stand on this talk of Empire while Sharif is pitching for Ethiopian troops? Where do you draw the line? When does pragmatism become defeatism?

Originally posted by Thierry.: Q3. Saxiib you are the one talking about the Somali empire and dragged me into this discussion, So I started this topic and added Somali empire to the title? I dragged you into this discussion? Waan gartay.

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: Mee Me? War ma ii maqantahay? Xiinow, Ma kuu maqni. Baribaad balo ahayd lakiin maanta aduunyada lama socotid, sidaa daraadeed ixtiraam inlagu siiyo ayaad istaahishaa. Sidii oday gaboobay oo soo tabcay, marka uu soo daalo gambarka waa looga kacaa.

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Originally posted by xiinfaniin: Waa markay Ethiopia ku waalan jirtey Me you are the problem, NOT Ethiopia. Care to explain why you oppose reason and support alshabaab, who tells the world that they have capacity to topple the admin in the State of Alaska? Xiinfiniin, Waalan jirtey? Ma sidan baa kuu danbaysay? I do not support Al Shabab, however I believe that they are a necessary evil. For more on that see this thread. For this thread let us stick to this so called Thiery-Xiin-Paragon School of thought that on one hand calls for Ethiopian invasion on the other hand speaks for Somali Empire. I am interested to know where this doublethink comes from.

Paragon, What is your answer for J11? Originally posted by J11: ....secondly, this war, in essence, is much older than us or even our fathers, its echoes are symbolised by the Ethiopian emperor, Menelik II's plea to his Euro-Christian brothers in 1891, utterring "Ethiopia has been for fourteen centuries a Christian island in a sea of pagans". Funily, by then he didn't categorize Somalis into clans and regions, but for him all Somalis were "Pagans". However, the same emperor's descendants are the ones whom we look upto and hope mercy from, what a pity. Let me not drag you into that area right now but the fact is once a snake always a snake, and the ethios haven't forgotten about old enmities and grudges, they dwell on the hatred they hold against us. Ethiopia had pursued her on goals inside Somalia and will continue to finish what emperor Haile Sallase described as "The Unfinished Business" that still continues to dominate Ethiopia's strategies, just as it use to be in the days of "Scramble for Africa". Interestingly, when the Europeans scrambled for the rest of Africa, Ethiopia in turn had scrambled for Somalia and her dream to enlarge Abbyssinian empire become true with the help of her christian brothers. What a shame to this day we fail to see this union between Ethios and Europeans, while calling europeans to mediate between us. Either way, what we've read from history books or heard from our parents will be nothing compared to what Ethiopia intends for Somalia. Below is alittle touch of reality and possibilities... Ethiopia's geo-political strategy - Elimi-Nation of Somalis and Somalia from history There is a surety, and all of you have noticed that Somalia has now been divided into fiefdoms, and all these divisions are DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY supported by the Ethiopian regime. Their strategy is to help Somalis seek autonomy from Somalia and form small, militarily ineffective regional governments that adhere to Ethiopian political and cultural ideology, whilst at the same time infiltrating our traditional values with an imposition of Ethiopian models of livelihood. This way the substance of the culture would be undermind by the strong ethio-influences, germinating from several places such as media and presence of a state that is client to Ethiopia. The outcome is deadly, or may i say THE END OF SOMALINESS. When a war of this level is waged against an entire de-centralised society, the result is erosion of basic principles that enforce law and order. The foundation is already being set for this kind of war. Statistically, many households in the provinces that neighbour Ethiopia, there is an employment of many ETHIOPIAN housemaids, who are likely to influence the mental growth of our offsprings; making them familiar with ethiopian values. So far, this is the most worrying factor, it is a war for the hearts and minds of the local Somalis. And as globalization spreads, ethiopia is likey to be successful in spreading her war in ways we wont be able to notice. It is not a wonderment to see a decline of patrioticism within Somalis because we're being systematically targetted by not only Ethiopia but by also the christian world. Insofar, it hasn't been dificult to figure out why so many Somalis are being shipped out of refugee camps in kenya and other neibouring countries. The reasons of shipments of such a large number of Somalis only constitute what some call "a historical ideological war", which as a result would make more Somalis become adaptive to western values, and it is more likely that we would see many Somalis relating to western (christian)values, which creates a possible increase of ethio-sympathetics in Somalia. By the time many of us go back to Somalia, there surely would be a clash of ideology. What threats Ethiopia poses cannot be comprehended by one or two writtings, but hopefully I wish you see things from my my angle once. Original post

Thiery, Do not hide behind Paragon come out and answer my direct questions. Man up and take responsibility for your words. 1. What benefit will an empire bring the Somali people? 2. Do we (Somalis) not have enough? 3. How can we talk about an empire if we do not even have a state, are you being a comedian here? I did not ask you about US or Mongol empire. I do not care about them or for them, but when you start talking about a Somali Empire my interest grows and many questions arise. Looking at the way you support Sharif Hotel and his call for Ethiopian troops, I am starting to believe you meant to write Ethiopian Empire instead of Somali Empire

Thiery, We started this discussion while there was a war in 'the south' why should we wait for when peace comes to the south? What benefit will an empire bring the Somali people? Do we (Somalis) not have enough? Or was this piece intended as an advertisement of kibir and want for domination of other Nations?

Thiery, Empires are built in the real world. I understand that empire building can be a daunting task and that there are always spoilers. However we should conclude from this piece and Sharif Hotel’s plight that your school of thought is not fit for building a Somali State let alone an empire saaxiib. In the perfect world Al Shabaab would put the guns down and negotiate with the government, the Amisom troops would be told to leave, joint Armed forces would be built and the warlords would be discarded replaced by Islamist and civil society. While we are day dreaming why shouldn’t we make more wishes? This is a dedication for those that hail from my School of thought Xiin, Paragon. I wonder were the school of thought stands on this issue?

I wondered whether the original author was aware of the definition of an empire. So I took the liberty to copy paste the following from wikipedia. An empire is a State with politico-military dominion of populations who are culturally and ethnically distinct from the imperial (ruling) ethnic group and its culture. I have the following questions for the author after reading the different pieces. 1. Are the populations in the NFD and O-G-A-D-E-N-I-A now ethnically and culturally distinct from the rest of the Somali's in the Republic? 2. Why doesn't the original author accept the consequences of using the word Empire and share with us his vision on how this empire will look like and how it can be built. From what I read the piece didn’t have anything interesting to say about Empire building. Let alone State building.

I remember reading this thread not that long ago and I have decided to bring this topic back to life. I found the use of the word empire in the title interesting to say the least. I wonder how one wants to accomplish building a Somali empire using Ugandan and Ethiopian troops……...but then maybe it is all in the Art of Diplomacy Norf and Paragon, where are the pieces you were supposed to write?

Guys, Let's leave this for future historians. We are all too caught up in this thing to be objective. Those who care should collect evidence and research materials for those historians. The fault lines are visible for everyone so let’s agree to leave this issue for what it is and deal with the present that is just as horrific as those years in the early 90's. Ps. Caano Geel we need a new anthem, I am bored of that old one. Or at least let's bring back Qolabaa calankeed. Soomaaliyey toosow doesn't do the plight and the aspirations of our nation any justice.

lol, jacaylbaro and his misinformation. The guy still has his Somali citizenship. Travel document ingiriis ah ayuu haystay, British citzienship ma uu haysan.

Dear Oodweyne, Thank you for your time and effort. I appreciate that you attempted to present an argument for the secessionist cause. I leave your case in the hands of the good SOL public, hoping that they will evaluate its soundness.

^ Nacxas Nugaaleed, Adiga hadalkaaga igala leexo you Xabash! How dare you speak the words Somali patriots, while you supported Xabash killing of our people.

Welcome aboard Oodweyne . As expected you provided the final nail on the coffin of this silly argument that our dear JB wanted to get past us. Now that we have understood the setting where these interim agreements came from, we should not blow up or play down their significance. As we have seen these letters do not provide the legitimacy that the secessionists of today's North West Somalia are looking for. They actually discredit the secessionist cause and the four day argument that our JB wanted to highlight, in his usual amateurish fashion of course. In the future keep your secessionist fetching monkey on a tight leash. As you see his copy pastings are costly. And now I have made my point, I will leave you guys in peace. There is no need to create further divisions and hate, as we are all Somali Brothers from the same region. Politics should not get in the way of decency.

Hhahahhahah, thank A&T great film indeed.

JB, Your slower then you seem. Think horta. If the Somali republic is the product of the merger between the two parts of Somalia that were colonized/occupied by the British and the Italians then this must mean a merger took place. This merger or as these documents refer to the transfer of jurisdiction over the territory to the Somali republic took place 49 years ago today. It should not be a novelty that British colonized certain sections of Northern Somalia and occupied other sections of Northern Somalia. Those of us who are familiar with the history of Northern Somalia are aware of this. The important thing here is that the two Somali territories were merged and a single Somali government was created. Another interesting fact is the signatories of the agreement with the British on 26 June 1960. As you can see the signatories represented the different communities in Northern Somalia in 1960. Where the British only had one signatory, for the temporary Northern Somali government there were four signatories. These four signatories also represented the different parties that were politically engaged and that only came together to transfer the Jurisdiction of Northern Somalia to the Somali Republic. Some of the heirs of the jurisdiction of the signatories are alive today and they reject the unilateral decision of the secessionist elements in Northern Somalia today. This article that you posted here in the vain believe that it would make any case in this good forum only exposed the weakness of the secessionist argument. This is also the reason why the die hard defeated lot secessionist such us our unrecognized son of the Queen Oodweyne has not come to your rescue and left you to fend for yourself. They left you hanging high and dry my friend, because they know how weak this argument of yours is.

JB, Indha adeeg kaama saarayso tan ee akhri before you post. Nr.1 It says Interim agreement. Nr. 2 ....confirming the transfer of, jurisdiction over the territory of the Government of Somaliland, to any other Government... i.e. The Somali Republic. These two points highlight that this arrangement was temporary. It was an interim agreement that the British entered into while waiting for the transfer of Jurisdictions to the Somali Republic Your attempt to mislead the good SOL readers has been thwarted once again so go back to the drawing board and come back with something else.

Dear SOLers, JB here has been caught red-handed. He only posted some pages of a document in a deliberate attempt to distort the truth. These two PDF’s are a pair and they have complementary information. Read for yourself. No. 5348 No. 5349 I have the honour to ask you to confirm on behalf of the Government of Somaliland that, should they in any way be a party to any agreement for, or any instrument having the effect of, transferring, or confirming the transfer of, jurisdiction over the territory of the Government of Somaliland, to any other Government , such agreement or instrument shall provide that the obligations of the Government of Somaliland in respect of the following instruments are transferred to, and accepted by, that , namely : (a) The Interim Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Somaliland for a United Kingdom Aid Mission ; * (b) The Public Officers Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Somaliland ; * 1 Came into force on 26 June 1960 by the exchange of the said letters. 1 See p. 331 of this volume. 1 See p. 339 of this volume. 360 United Nations — Treaty Sénés 1960 From this excerpt we can see that the British were worried about what would happen to their military personnel when the transfer of Jurisdiction with Somalia took place....hence ….. should they in any way be a party to any agreement for, or any instrument having the effect of, transferring, or confirming the transfer of, jurisdiction over the territory of the Government of Somaliland, to any other Government The British Government wanted to make sure that its troops did not end up in legal limbo. So they signed a document that guaranteed that once the transfer of territory to Somalia took place, that the British forces would have legal protection. JB, You have lied to this great forum and attempted to mislead us, with your ill-conceived plot to distort Somali history. You should be ashamed of yourself. Meiji, Thank you for providing this info.

^Stature

Meiji, Isn't that the Xabash argument? The other day a Xabash parliamentarian was saying exactly that. His argument was: "Somalia existed for 4 dacades and even in those four decades it didn’t function. So Somalia is an artificial concept that can not exist." I believed that statement to be an insult to every Somali. That is denial of our very existence and it is a major crime against our nation. So Meiji if your argument does not reach further then what you have already presented then you are plagiarizing on that Xabash. The coming 50 years - Should we give up on the idea of seeing a united Somalia as was the case on 1 july 1960, 49 years ago? - Or should we learn from past mistakes and never give up? You are all welcome to share your thoughts and contribute to the discussion in a constructive manner. I do not understand your questions here. Please clarify. I don't even understand where you are heading with this whole thread.

^Somalians?

Kenya's police have denied claims of torture and rape when they disarmed rival clan militias last year. Human Rights Watch says there should be an inquiry into the "collective punishment" of civilians in Mandera. The US-based organisation said its research showed thousands of people had been tortured and women had been raped. But police spokesman Eric Kiraithe told the BBC there had been no torture or beatings and asked HRW to produce evidence to back up its findings. "Certainly we should look into the laws in this country which allow any street boy to come here and publish very disparaging lies about our internal security forces," he told the BBC's Network Africa programme. Earlier this year a UN investigator into allegations of extrajudicial killings elsewhere in Kenya, Philip Alston, said the police were a "law unto themselves". 'Not a case of bad apples' A woman who was raped in Elele: "One held my head on the ground, and the other one started raping me. I fainted because I was pregnant and when I woke up I just found myself damaged from the rape. I ran to the bush where our livestock are. I went with the five children that I could see. After three days, I found the rest of my kids in the bush. I came back after six weeks to give birth in Elele. I haven't seen any doctor or hospital." Source: Human Rights Watch According to Human Rights Watch, a joint police and military operation to disarm the warring militias in the north-eastern town of Mandera took place between 25 October and 28 October 2008. It followed deadly clashes between the local Garre and Murulle clans, which had killed 21 people earlier in the year. "Unfortunately, that joint operation pursued a brutal strategy of basically rounding up all of the civilians in various villages and then, in a sense, collectively punishing them," the report's author Ben Rawlence told the BBC. "Requiring them to turn over weapons, to disclose the whereabouts of the militias who've been fighting, torturing thousands of people and raping some women… destroying property and causing between 20,000 and 30,000 people to flee the area." In February, Human Rights Watch researchers visited five of the towns and say they documented consistent accounts from more than 90 victims. The interviewees said security forces entered early in the morning and rounded up all of the men they could find. They were made to lie on the ground for hours and were beaten with rifle butts, sticks, canes and iron rods. "In front of the police station, they made us lie down. They were beating us with sticks, rungus [clubs], anything. They weren't saying anything except beating us and then: 'Bring the gun or you'll die,'" a victim in El Wak said. Other said the security forces twisted, crushed or ripped open their testicles. "This is not a question of a few bad apples disobeying orders," Kenneth Roth, Human Rights Watch's executive director said. "This operation was the result of a strategy devised by senior officials to use brutal force against Kenyan citizens." Mr Kiraithe has denied previous accusations of police brutality and said if Human Rights Watch had evidence of torture in the Mandera district, the organisation should hand it over. "We have well over five institutions in this country prepared to carry out public prosecutions and ensure that justice is done," Mr Kiraithe said. The region around Mandera is prone to conflicts between rival clans, often for control of scarce water and pastures. The area is largely inhabited by Somali-speaking nomads. Link