I believe this was exactly what I was referring to in earlier posts that this baro family business would only cause segregation and problems to all parties in SOL. But I was accused of attacking our resident Somali literate Nomads without due cause. But here I am seeing that dawoco who was actually being too mutual (if you ask me) and arguing your cases has now been attacked by several reer baro nomads for merely giving good advice? Because by using names like bamrambora, which is given to a household pest which infest and spreads disease will only display what your real motives are on SOL and reflect on what the baro family have done to SOL. Maybe to chase away the regular SOL users is your main baro family initiative, but I for one will not be chased away so easily, if it was my call I would called in the exterminator and rid ourselves of this infestation once and for all, but people like Dawoco and the admin choose that we should co-exist and resolve our differences. However sad and how typical this is I’ll think I’ll stick it out for a while, but I think the sooner the Af Somali sections appears the better, hopefully you’ll stay there until you reform and are able to interact with other nomads in friendly and mature manner. Because this is beyond a farce and I’m surprised it was allowed to escalate for so long. Because nomads like OG-girl and myself have been complaining about this for so long and nothing was done! and as ngonge so fittingly quoted from Pastor Martin Niemöller "First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me." I’ve also started to think that insulting people in Somali is not against the golden rules in SOL, as evident in the political section, where nomads are getting away with using profanity such as calling other nomads “*******sâ€.

Alle-ubaahne Thank you walaal for defending me but Og-girl and I have a good relationship, were we both can express one another’s views without feeling as those we are offending one another. However I completely agree! Islam is by far the perfect governance and Islam’s laws were produced by a superior and pure being and therefore I would much rather live by the laws of Allah than the hypocritical and self-interested laws designed and put in place by simple and feeble mortals who become corrupt with power. Og girl Walaal, lol…you’ve truly out done yourself today and I’m glad you’ve contributed your views on this, after all that was the whole aim and to be honest you made a well thought out and structured argument. But as you and I have both stated this world is imperfect and is run by selfish and corrupted individuals. However I already happily live without freedom and I’ve never had any faith in democracy. This topic wasn’t posted to start an up rise or any sort of revolution in order to transgress to a better life because as you can see I never suggested an alternative because to do that would be easier said than done. Nonetheless I’d hate to be living in this system and blinding myself from the facts just so that I can live by the old saying that “ignorance is bliss†because if you were stuck in the matrix which pill would you choose? lol…excuse the pun but still the question stands! Getting back to your argument… You say that I’m “trying to implement these concepts in an ideal case scenario†which is not possible well luv it’s not me whose implementing these concepts and force feeding it across the ‘far from ideal’ world as the best and only way to live, it’s “The West†I’m merely pointing out that these concept’s inability to firstly work along side each other and secondly that they are attainable at all. “I would therefore say is in everyone’s best interest to aim for these concepts cause the alternative is dictatorship and oppression for all†You also voiced that even in Islamic state problems arise that as you put it “The disagreement and division arose mainly as a result of political interests and this in turn led to theological differences which are still with us today†I don’t think this is true, and a best alternative would be an Islamic state and I do not regard Islam as an oppressive dictatorship. Sure people become corrupt with power eventually but when the basis is an Islamic one which was started with pure intentions and which I believe is far better than following laws based on a kafir religion with people who have no sense of what being selfless and equal is…but unless you’re a secularist whose pro-France and it’s approach to religion, you haven’t got a better choice. “What is the alternative? Cause I don’t see you advancing another system here and remember anyone can criticise anything but not everyone has a solution!†You right walaal I didn’t originally make a suggestion as to an alternative system, properly because I’m no che guevara and I don’t think starting a revolution is on my to-do-list well not now anyways…lol but as I’ve said Islam is the best alternative when it comes to the crunch on the contrary as I was told only last week there is in fact a haddith which has been approved by scholars to be correct which denounces the up rise of Muslims against government states as long as your Islamic obligations, for example the right to worship Allah and prayer are not conflicted or affected. Anyhow, going back to your statement that bush was elected fairly. “I’m sorry to say your example is weak here as the American elections are based on Electoral College based on population and if I understand correctly, is ensure that each state is well represented however big or small it is in union. Otherwise, states like New York, California will dominate the union! So, give us another example.†Walaal, No it’s already been proven that Bush was elected unfairly as silent sistah has mentioned. “When elections where held, bush opponent was winning by a long shot…however the deciding vote came down to California, which is a biased state (because of their governor) it was larger than the rest, and therefore out numbered them†I’m guessing silent sistah watched the Fahrenheit 11 documentary, which was all based on fact might I add. Because the people’s choice was Al-Gore but Bush used his social position as bush junior to get the title of president, which of course is hardly democratic! I’m sorry that this argument was a little muddled and poorly constructed but I’m trying to follow chronological order; however much of the statements are related to previously stated statements. So to conclude on that walaal I would have to say that yes an Islamic system is perfect, but we as humans are not. Silent Sistah Thank you luv for you contribution and I appreciated it! I’m glad we see eye to eye. Waryaa dude You said that “freedom, in the west you have as much freedom as long as you don’t harm or offend others, in Islam it’s the same but add not to offend Allah with it.†Walaal I don’t believe in freedom because it doesn’t work and I don’t think I have freedom in Islam too because freedom is defined in such a way that it shouldn’t come with conditions and for that very reason this concept then becomes unattainable. But I would much rather follow Islam’s laws and regulations instead of laws that have been chopped and changed to suit higher up officials or benefit other individuals much like the pigs did in George Orwell’s satire ‘Animal farm’.

Originally posted by Gediid: Well somalis horey u tidhi naacaas iyo habeen baa madow now its niicle iyo naacaas no English. Gediid were you by any chance indirectly, directing that at me? (Now that's a tongue twister!) No seriously, were you? Because if you were that was rather insensitive and actually offended me for two whole seconds. Or maybe I was being paranoid again!?? :confused:

Does any one here really and whole-heartedly believe in freedom and democracy? :confused: Because I don’t see how even in an ideal world those two concepts would work. Firstly in the dictionary freedom and democracy is defined as follows: Freedom is a condition of being free or unrestricted, personal or civic liberty. The state of being free to act and also the condition of being exempt from or not subject to a defect or burden. Democracy is defined, as a system of government by the whole population usually through elected representatives or a state so governed. It’s also any organisation governed on democratic principles or an egalitarian, classless and tolerant form of society. Is it me or are these either a contradiction or a concept that is beyond the comprehension and scope of this imperfect mortal world we live in? Because obviously freedom will never work, as we are inundated with restrictions, rules and laws wherever in the world we are! And obviously one person’s freedom will forever conflict with another person’s freedom. So why blind I ourselves with this falsity that freedom is attainable in this world and that it is the very thing that distinguishes the developed countries (e.g. America) from those countries that oppress their people? When in actual fact it’s places like America that preaches freedom and claims to live by it, that lack the very characteristics of freedom at the most? And as for democracy well I think democracy is a mockery of our intellect! For the love of god it’s a concept that is based on another “nonexistent†concept (freedom). And if we were to use the modern day examples of democratic countries then I think people would agree with me when I say that election of a representative elected by the whole population is not the case for America when the majority of the population voted against him. And I believe that by all means this was completely due to class and position, which goes completely against thee initial definition of what democracy should be.

So let me get this right! In your eyes people who are disadvantaged enough to be unable to read and write Somali should put up with this constant abuse from better-endowed Nomads? Because that’s all I’ve been accustom to! I’m constantly being confronted by certain Nomads who know fully well I’m unable to read and write Somali and then they have the cheek to reply to me in Somali, saying god knows what! Is that their idea of a sick joke? Next they’ll be laughing at people with no legs and boasting about their ability to run. If I’ve chosen or was unable to for whatever reason to learn to read and write in Somali… then since when was this a crime and if it was a crime to whom exactly am I suppose to have committed this horrible crime to? They way I see it is that all of you are able to read and write in English yet some of you choose to write in Somali, which is fine when directed at other Somali reading and writing nomads. But I don’t see why a topic I start in order to receive feedback on by other Nomads on SOL should be in a language I do not understand! (What use is that to me?) So would it not make sense that a section solely for Somali readers and writers was made to accommodate everyone in a peaceful manner? And as for comments made regarding segregation being caused because of the af Somali section I believe that this is not entirely the case because if SOL stays how it is now more conflicts are likely to be initiated… If we can’t even communicate with one another properly, people are likely to get frustrated and act idiotically.

Oh wow, I think that’s a great idea! I think this will put an end to a lot of the problems that were escalating in SOL, and I’ll definitely be welcoming the change, and who knows I may even try to brush up my Somali and use the section myself.

Oh sorry I didn't make it clear Prettyboy, It's a UK based channel. Jamaal no unfortunately I didn't get to watch that documentary, actually I don't watch TV much at all, but my work colleague told me about this documentary and we're both big on conspiracy theories…lol Liibaro what was that about lawyers and their daughters? Luv you may think it’s all twaddle but I’m a firm believer that this world is run on corruption and I for one am not going to turn a blind eye to it! Plus Liibaro please do not use inappropriate language on SOL, It's not needed.

On at 9pm on Thursday 9th September Channel 4 A documentary about the 9/11 attacks on America galvanised conspiracy theorists into an unprecedented flurry of activity. This programme investigates how these various conspiracy theories got started, who is peddling them today and the hidden truths they often conceal. -------------------------------------------------- And they have the cheek to accuse Al Jazeera of propaganda when they broadcast biased documentaries and then for them to expect us to swallow nonsense drivel like that! Well they not so skilful at disguising their seedy objectives anymore.

Question 1: Do all of us think of what we write when starting a topic or posting a reply? Well I know I put a lot of thought into whatever I’m writing, especially when people can quote you unfavourably, so I’ve learnt from my mistakes and keep it as politically correct as possible. And before anyone mentions that being PC means I’m not free to express my views then, I’d like to say I don’t believe in freedom anyways. Question 2: If there were students that learn from the wisdom of the words we write (in SOL), do we think our words contain any useful information that can benefit them (student)? I believe I’ve learnt quiet a bit from this website and I seriously believe and hope others will benefit from SOL too. I try to be informative whenever I post anything and I like to think other Nomads do so too. Question 3: About chitchats, do our words in regards to general talk contain anything beneficial to any reader that browses SOL, or does our chitchat serve any purpose? I think some chitchats on SOL can be a bad thing because they can cause the exclusion of other Nomads, as you’ve seen of late. But some of course have benefits and bring about social cohesion, but obviously it has to be something everyone can identify with. So yes it does serve a purpose of such. Question 4: When we start a topic what is our intention? Are we after learning from others' opinions or just to seek popularity of some kind? Well I think we’re all a little old for this whole popularity lark, and whenever I post I always think about writing something that is either close to my heart or something I know SOL nomads may benefit from. Because I wouldn’t want to waste our valuable cyber space on drabble that would most likely be forgotten about as fast as it was thought up! I’d like to add one question, if I may! What topic made you join SOL, and if it wasn't a topic what was it?

To be honest it’s taken 14 or so years to establish our selves, imagine how long it will take to reunite and become on country. Frankly I doubt I’ll see it happen in my lifetime, and if it does then it’ll probably be a long and bumpy road. And hopefully without any bloodshed! But seriously lets be realistic…I can’t see one government peacefully running the whole country and so easily forgetting all the conflicts we’ve had with tribes. In fact it’s like hoping that one-day Somalis will stop using tribes to identify themselves. Is that wishful thinking?

Sorry I didn’t quiet get the question, are you talking about grammar? Because some people say we’re Somali and other say we’re Somalian. But obviously Somalian isn’t in the dictionary yet both the west and us choose to refer to us as Somalian. Personally I don’t see it as a big deal because you are what you are regardless of what anyone else says! Or are you saying that a Somalian is from Somaliland and a Somali is from Somalia. Which is all rather confusing because whether you’re from north or south you’re a Somali or a Somalian. :confused: :confused: (which means exactly the same thing! (You say tamato I say tomato) BIG DEAL! Like for example people from England have southerners and northerners but they’re all English.

Qudhac you’re right I’ve seen this one too many times on SOL…all those innocently stated board-line tribalist remarks masked with this pretence that what they really want is unity. Well if its unity the want then wouldn’t it be more wise to stop attacking what we stand for and believe so strongly in?! With remarks like, “Somaliland is not a country, its a phantom state†and “I don’t think there is an adjective as such 'Somalilander'â€. All I have to say to that is well if it isn’t in the “western†dictionary boo hoo, because if it exists in the minds of say even a few hundreds (forget thousands!) who are they to say otherwise? Tomorrow they’ll question your religion, and then would you be so eager to believe them and forget what you believe in?

This discussion as Ngonge clearly said, is pointless and ridiculous! The starter of the topic is far from clued up on the whole issue to begin with, and that’s probably to do with (Dare I say) tribalist propaganda she’s been exposed to. And sorry OG girl but I have to disagree with you this time dear, because I don’t see what the UN has to do with any of this! I’m not a believer in this sham they call democracy, so why should we wait around for them to acknowledge us like their opinion matters to us! I don’t see the big deal in Somaliland separating themselves from the rest of Somalia, obviously if they can’t co-exist peacefully you have to opted to do (what I believe is right) and separate. But obviously we all live in hope that one-day that we’ll be able to settle our differences and unify. But while the wounds are still sore, due to the hundreds of victims of war lost from both sides, I don’t think that anyone can question why Somaliland has chosen to declare themselves a country in their own right. However, our opinions and what we see fit is not likely to have much effect on Somalia and Somaliland politics, so this whole discussion a frustratingly senseless and seems to be a never ending cycle, that I’m quiet frankly bored of! With any luck this discussion will become uncultivable and then forgotten about as quickly as it was brought up.

I can’t believe some people can be so negative, why would you not want your husband there to share such an experience? Forget about this silly culture where any sign of affection is frowned upon, because I think your husband being present at the birth will only strengthen your relationship. I know my mum believes that women shouldn’t scream when in labour because apparently it’s “Ceeb!†so while my mum was holding in screams pretending to be strong so that others won’t think of her any less. My dad would be sitting outside in the waiting room completely clueless about what my mum was going through to bring THEIR child into this world. I was hoping the next generation would put an end to this absurd culture we cling on to and hold with so much misguided respect for. I know my brother was present at all his children births and he’s changed his view about women and their cultural roles and ultimately made his relationship with his wife stronger and inshallah lasting! **But then again hey we're Somali, women have to go through as much pain as possible to for fill their cultural duties…that’s life for you!**

You may all think it's amusing but it's not for us! If we don't understand what you’re writing how are we to interact with you and reply? And if you're purposely doing it...then you're being anti-social and segregating yourselves from us! And obviously this is completely pointless on an online forum catered for everyone to use and that’s EVERYONE not a selected few!

Many Somali women are the victims of domestic violence and the only reason you don't hear about it so often is because it's not aired so publicly! In fact since we come from a culture that condones actions like that, I’m not too surprised about it.

Mission completed, you should all give yourself a good pat on the back and applauded yourselves for managing to go off the topic yet again! But this time at record speeds! Woo hoo! After watching the Olympics I realised the only thing Somalis are good for are going off the track. Now we all know we’d win everytime! As for my little friend feebaro…It's funny how when someone don't understand other peoples English, it has to change, yet when I don't understand some the other Nomads Somali, I'm treated like a lost soul.

lol Don't start this! Of course we're black and African, but this is beside the point. Racism is racism therefore should not be posted on SOL period! You can't have one set of rules for us and another for them, in fact why does it have to be us and them in the first place??! Why are we so quick to segregate ourselves? You know it’s funny how other non-Somali Africans assume it’s us who are separating ourselves from them and yet the Somalis see it as them separating us from our African roots. (Did that even make any sense?) No it doesn’t make sense and clearly something has gone wrong along the way, many people choose to blame this on “the west†and play the whole divide and conquer card. But I think that its gone way deeper than that now and that somehow someday we need to resolve this issue and the first step YOU can take is by choosing to throw away your pride (and of course pride is xaram!) And say you’re BLACK and AFRICAN regardless of whether they chose to accept you or not! And hopefully by saying this and teaching it to the younger generation maybe one day we will be united as Allah intended! Religion should be our only excuse for segregation!

I find that emotionally thrashing yourself always works for me but I believe that will probably leave you with long term side affects such as depression and being bitter about life as a whole. Till I find a better method I’ll stick with this one.

I this site has been getting some very bad publicity, I found this out accidentally yesterday when I was having trouble getting SOL and I decided to use google and when I typed in Somaliaonline I found a website forum mentioning SOL and it was quite negative at that! I think that in some respects that we can only blame ourselves when we post insults and racist views on SOL. I think I’ve said this before that we all represent our nation and due to are small numbers, one persons actions will reflect on us all whether we like it or not. So in future please keep in mind our unanticipated audience who are so eager to jump on and take out of context even our most innocent of words. http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum9/4028.html

Aeryn Sun I’m wondering what got you contemplating such things, is a bout of depression? Well if that’s the case join the club! -Do you consider yourself a fully grown woman, or do you still think of yourself as a little girl? You know I've always thought of myself as a girl up until one day when I was 19 and I was surprised to hear someone refer to me as a woman, ever since then I've thought of my myself as a woman and it definitely did wonders for the old self esteem for a short while. -Do you feel a great deal has changed from when you were 14/15? Yeah obviously a lot has changed other than just physical changes, I’m now responsible for myself and I’m finally perusing the goals I set out for myself when I was around 14 and 15 years old. -Do you still feel as lost and confused as ever? To be honest I think I’m more lost and confused now then I was when I was younger, at least back then everything was straight forward and as clear as crystal. Now everything is distorted and unnecessarily confused and complicated. Sometimes I wish I could return to the good old days when growing older was a far away wishful dream made of happy ideals and promises of a better life. But now it’s a disappointing muddy ditch that you’re trying desperately to crawl out of, but only to find yourself slipping further and getting stained and filthier on the way. And they say it’s supposed to be the prime of your life! Don’t get me wrong there are good days when you stop struggling to get out and look up to admire sky when it’s not dark stormy and raining. -When does a girl actually become a woman? I’d say that you can’t put an age on it; it’s different for everyone, because our mothers were considered women when they were as young as 14 and 15. It’s all about maturity so I would say that a girl becomes a woman when she’s responsible and able to deal with responsibility. But in the Somali culture you’re not a woman until you’ve been married! Because I’ve seen 30 year olds being referred to as girls just because they’re virgins which I think is hilarious!

Buuto is right, you wouldn't be in the situation of waiting for him to propose if you made it clear from that start that you're not a fan of casual dating. As for the whole proposing, it’s funny that some people are left to resort to extreme measures like that and culturally I believe the idea of a women proposing to a man is frowned upon. Though I know one girl who not only did just that but is still SINGLE but then again that was because she backed out, however with Somalis news travels fast and now she's stuck for offers and Mashallah she's very beautiful but I can't help but be amused when she's telling older women she needs a man! (All I can say is how brave is she???!!!!) Sorry but I'm definitely not that brave I can't even tell my parents "I'm getting married" much less I go to that extreme of asking for a man, I'd sooner be a spinster for life!

This topic has been discussed so many times! See I was right after all, I'm not as crazy as you people make me out to be after all! http://www.somaliaonline.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002713

Jumatatu, here's a suggestion as to why our Nomad Mutakalim chose to use those words. At school I was always taught to avoid repetition when writing maybe this is the case with Mutakalim. Just a thought! :confused: I also think that Mutakalim is helping the rest of us by introducing new words to us. I choose to see it as a contribution to out little society rather than him singing his own praises!

Funnily enough I’m having the same sort of problem at my work place. Our speech and language therapist find that reading to children from a early age greatly helps young children later in life when they start school and even helps them with the speech development. We’re currently running a library session for under fours in a deprived part of Tower Hamlets, and we originally hoped to attract the Bengali and Somali community, however we find that we are in fact attracting mostly middle class white women. When I questioned Somali mothers about this they usually reply with statements such as “what are babies going to do with books?†They generally feel that libraries are unnecessary for young children and they do not believe there is a need for early learning at such a young age. But they do not realise that their children are missing out on a better start in life because of old age customs. I even remember not being allowed to go to library as a child because my family were too over protective and genuinely didn’t see a need for reading for leisure. When I got older I actually resorted to hiding books from my parents because I was addicted to reading novels and my parents felt it was getting in the way of my education. Getting back to the question at hand I’d say that the best approach is poetry, because the older generation of Somalis are great lovers of poetry and this would probably help make them more accustom to their local libraries. I also think that we should all be encouraging our siblings to read and attend the library, I know I’m always pushing my brothers to read and to my surprise it’s actually working.