Shaikh Salih al-Fawzaan was asked, "Is Salafiyyah a hizb (party) from amongst the parties. And is ascribing to them (i.e. the Salafis) a blameworthy thing?" To which he replied, "As-Salafiyyah (i.e. the Salafis) is the Saved Sect, and they are Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah. It is not a hizb (party) from amongst the various parties, those which are called "parties" today. Rather they are the Jamaa’ah, the Jamaa’ah upon the Sunnah and upon the Deen (religion). They are Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah. The Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said, "There will not cease to be a group from my Ummah manifest and upon the truth not being harmed by those who forsake them neither by those who oppose them" and he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) also said, "And this Ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of them in the Hellfire but one". They said, which one is this O Messenger of Allaah? He replied, "They are those who are upon what I and my companions are upon today". Hence Salafiyyah is a group of people (i.e. the Salafis) upon the madhhab of the Salaf, upon what the Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) and his companions were upon and it is not a hizb from amongst the contemporary groups present today. Rather it is the very old Jamaa’ah, from the time of the Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) which inherits (this way) and continues, and which never ceases to be upon the manifest truth until the establishment of the Hour, as he (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) has informed (us)." (Cassette: "at-Tahdheer min al-Bid’ah" second cassette, delivered as a lecture in Hawtah Sadeer, 1416H). Shaikh Saalih Aal ash-Shaikh, Minister of Islamic Affairs of Saudi Arabia, stated, "Muslims are of two groups: Salafis and Khalafis. As for the Salafis, then they are the followers of Salaf us-Saalih (first three generations of Muslims). And as for the Khalafis, then they are the followers of the understanding of the Khalaf and they are also called Innovators - since everyone who is not pleased and satisfied with the path of the Salaf us-Saalih, in knowledge and action, understanding and fiqh, then he is a khalafi, an innovator." Muslims have been happy with the Sharia of Islam ever since it came to rule their affairs and daily lives. In modern history, the first Saudi State was founded on the basis of Islam more than two and a half centuries ago, when two pious reformers, Imam Mohammed Bin Saud and Sheikh Mohammed Bin Abdul-Wahhab (may God have mercy on their souls!) committed themselves to it. (King Fahad's speech) Salafi Dawa, nobody is against Salafi. There is no compulsion in religion. My problem with them is when your leaders and Sheikhs make these type of statements. The Salafi preach that they are the saved sect as you can see from your own sheikhs's statement and lately they are trying to call themselves the Jamaa'ah and saying that the rest of us The Ahlulsunna are not Jamaa'ah. Salafi Dawa what is your reply to these two statements from your leaders one from the sheikhs and the other from the saudi family)? Since we are not following the Salafi (i.e. Abdul Wahhab) but the Ahlulsunna wa Jamaa'ah (i.e. Imam Shafi'i etc.) do we go to hell?

The Prophet said: ‘‘The person must obey his ruler in whatever he loves, and in whatever he hates, in ease and in hardship, in willingness and un-willingness; except if he is commanded to disobey Allaah. So if he is commanded to disobey Allaah, then he should not listen, nor should he obey.’’ Related by al-Bukhaaree (4/203) Salafi Da'wa doesn't this contradict the existence of the Salafi and Saudi goverment since they revolted against a muslim leader who perfomed his daily prayers?

This is the speech that King Fahd gave when he came up with the basic law of governance. The Saudi and the Wahhab family continiously brag about their alliance and yet the newly Salafi Somali Sheikhs keep on avoiding to talk about this alliance. Why Salafis don't like to talk about Islamic history. How long will the Salafi Somali Sheikhs make excuses for these type of alliances. King Fahd's Speech on the issuance of the Basic Law of Governance The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques (may God protect him), on the occasion of the issuance of the Basic Law of Governance, the Law of Majlis Ash-Shura and the Law for the Provinces, gave the following speech to his fellow citizens of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia: In the name of God, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe, and may peace and blessings be upon the most noble of the prophets, Our Prophet Mohammed, and upon all his family and companions! Fellow citizens, If God intends good to come to a people, He will guide them to what is most appropriate. God has favored us greatly, beyond measure, and the greatest favor of all is Islam. If we fully adhere to this religion, we shall never go astray. Rather we shall be guided in happiness because Almighty God has told us this, as has His Messenger the Prophet (PBUH). Historical facts and reality stand as witness in this regard. Muslims have been happy with the Sharia of Islam ever since it came to rule their affairs and daily lives. In modern history, the first Saudi State was founded on the basis of Islam more than two and a half centuries ago, when two pious reformers, Imam Mohammed Bin Saud and Sheikh Mohammed Bin Abdul-Wahhab (may God have mercy on their souls!) committed themselves to it. This State was set upon a clear course of politics and government. It was committed to propagating Islam and to fostering a sense of community. This is the course of Islam, the Creed and the Sharia. Ever since the establishment of this righteous state, the people of the country have enjoyed happiness, security and unity of opinion. They have been living in harmony and fraternal cooperation, after a prolonged period of fear and division. The Creed and the Sharia being the basic principles on which this State has risen, the application of these principles has manifested itself in full adherence to the correct Islamic course in the Creed, its doctrine, in the Propagation of Islam (Da'wa), in the enjoining of good and the forbidding of evil, in its judicature and in the relationship between the ruler and the ruled. As such, the Saudi State has become a distinguished model of politics and government in modern political history. The adoption of this course has continued in all subsequent stages as successive rulers have continued to adhere to the Islamic Sharia. And it is that bounty of God, which he grants to whom He wishes. This continuous following of the course of Islam is based on three facts: The fact that the basis of this course of Islam is fixed and is not subject to change or alteration. God the Almighty said, We have, without doubt, sent down the Message: and we will assuredly guard it (from corruption)" (XV, 9). The fact that the following of the course of Islam should be constant. God the Almighty said: “ Then We put thee on the (right) way of Religion; so, follow thou that (way) and follow not the desires of those who know not†. (XL,18) The fact that the rulers of this country remain loyal to Islam in different circumstances and conditions. Loyalty to Islam, the Creed and the Sharia, continued during the era of King Abdulaziz (May God have mercy on him!). He founded the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and unified it on the same course, despite difficult historical circumstances and the problems he faced during the process of unifying the country. In accordance with this course, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was founded on the following bases: • The unity of faith which makes the people devote worship to God alone with no partners and live in dignity and in honor. • The Islamic Sharia which protects life, preserves rights and regulates the relationship between the ruler and the ruled, regularizes dealings among members of the community and safeguards public security. • The undertaking of the Propagation of Islam (Da'wa) and its dissemination, since the Propagation of Islam in one of the most important functions of an Islamic state. • The founding of an environment, free of evil deeds and deviations to help people act honestly and righteously -- this task is achieved by encouraging good and discouraging evil. • The achievement of the unity of faith which is the basis for political social and geographical integrity. • The adoption of the means and ways leading to progress, in order to achieve an advance which eases people's lives and protects their livelihood in the light of the guidance and standards of Islam. • The practice of consultation (shura) just as Islam has commanded and praised whoever undertakes it, since Islam has ranked practicing consultation (shura) among the qualities of the believers. • The Two Holy Mosques shall remain inviolate for visitors and worshipers, as the two were intended to be by God, safe from all that hinders worship in the best way and the performance of the minor and major pilgrimages (Umra and Hajj). The Kingdom shall undertake this duty in fulfillment of our duty towards God and in service of the community of Islam. • The defense of the faith, the Holy Shrines, the homeland, the citizens and the State. These are the grand bases on which the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been established. During the reign of King Abdulaziz, political systems bases on this course emerged, due to the developments of modern life. In the year 1373 H, in view of the evolution of the State and the expansion of its responsibilities, King Abdulaziz (may God have mercy on him!) issued a decree for the formation of a council of ministers. This council is still in operation in accordance with the law issued then and with amendments that followed. This course is still followed to this day, by the grace and guidance of God. Therefore, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has never known the so-called "constitutional vacuum." The literal meaning of "constitutional vacuum" is that the State has no guiding principles or binding frame of reference in the fields of legislation and regulation. The Kingdom has never witnessed such a phenomenon in its entire history because it has been ruled according to the guiding principles, the binding rules and the clear fundamentals to which judges, ulema and all others employed by the State refer. All the organs of the State currently function according to laws which stem from the Islamic Sharia, and they are regulated by it. Thus it is not from vacuum that we are today enacting the following laws in new forms: the Basic Law of Government, the Law of Majlis Ash -Shura and the Law for the Provinces. These three laws codify existing practices and embody what is already in operation. These statutes are subject to reconsideration and amendment in accordance with what the Kingdom's circumstances and interests require. The three laws were formed on he basis of the Islamic Sharia, reflecting our genuine traditions, righteous values and cherished customs. Compatriots: The source of the Basic Law (of Governance) as well as its foundation is the Islamic Sharia. This law has been guided by the Islamic Sharia in defining the nature, the objectives and the responsibilities of the State, as it has in defining the relationship between the ruler and the ruled on the basis of brotherhood, consultation, friendship and cooperation. The relationship between citizens and state officials is founded on solid and deep-rooted traditions, compassion, mutual respect and loyalty stemming from the sincere and firm convictions in the hearts of this country's people generation. There is no difference between the ruler and the ruled. They are equal before the law of God, and they are all equal in their love of this homeland and in their eagerness to maintain its safety, unity, pride and progress. Whoever is in charge has obligations as well as rights. The relationship between the ruler and the ruled is first and foremost governed by the Sharia of God as it has come (to us) in His Holy Book and in the traditions (Sunna) of His Messenger (PBUH). The Basic Law of Governance has been inspired by these sources. It has sought to apply them fully in the relationship between the ruler and the ruled, in compliance with all that has been revealed through our true religion in this respect. As for Majlis Ash-Shura law, it is based on Islam both in name and content, in response to God's words: "Those who respond to their Lord, and establish regular prayer, who (conduct) their affairs by mutual consultation; who spend out of what we bestow on them for sustenance" (XL, 38). "It is part of the mercy of God that thou dost deal gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee: so pass over (their faults) and ask for (God's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then, when thou hast taken a decision, put they trust in God. For God loves those who put their trust (in Him)" (III, 159) We have already mentioned on several occasions that the country witnessed the establishment of Majlis Ash-Shura long ago. Throughout this period, shura (consultation) activities continued in many and various ways. The rules of the Kingdom maintained consultations in times of need with ulema (religious scholars) and advisors. The new Law of the Majlis Ash-Shura provides for the modernization and development of an existing system through the consolidation of the Majlis's framework. It also provides vehicles for more efficiency, better organization and vitality in order to achieve the desired objectives. The capable members of this Majlis will be carefully chosen so as to contribute to the development of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and its progress, taking into consideration the public interest of the homeland and its citizens. While Majlis Ash-Shura undertakes, God willing, general consultation at the level of the State, we ought not to ignore the consultations currently practiced within the State's organs through the specialized councils and committees. These structures ought to remain active so that their work will complement that of Majlis Ash-Shura. The country has recently witnessed tremendous developments in various fields. These developments have called for a renewal of the general administrative system in the country. To meet this need and interest, the Law of the Provinces has come to allow for more organized action through appropriate administrative measures, and to upgrade the level of administration in the provinces of the Kingdom. Compatriots: These laws have been drawn up after a meticulous and patient study carried out by a select group of learned men of sound knowledge and experience. Full consideration was given to the Kingdom's distinguished position in the Islamic world, and to its traditions and customs, as well as its social and cultural conditions. Therefore these laws have sprung from our realities, taking into account our traditions and customs, while adhering to our true religion. We are confident that these laws will, with the help of God, assist the State in realizing every Saudi citizen's hopes for the welfare and progress of this homeland and his Arab and Islamic nation. The Saudi citizen is the base for the advancement and development of this homeland, and we shall not spare any effort to ensure his happiness and well-being. The world, which is following the development and progress of this country, greatly admires its domestic policy, which safeguards the citizen's security and well-being. It also admires this country's foreign policy, which seeks to establish relations with other countries and contribute to world peace. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is the sanctuary of the Muslim Shrines and a site for the Hajj (the major pilgrimage), the Umra (the minor pilgrimage) and the Visit (to the Prophet's Mosque). It has a special place in the hearts of all Muslims. God has honored this State with the Custody of the Two Holy Mosques, to facilitate the performance of the pilgrimages and the visit to the Mosque of the Prophet (PBUH). We have done our utmost to expand the Two Holy Mosques and develop the other holy sites. The State offers full assistance to all guests bound for the Holy Places. We thank God and ask Him to continue granting us more grace to go on serving these places and all Moslems wherever they may be. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has adhered constantly to the Islamic course in government, in judicature, in the Propagation of Islam (Da'wa), in education, in enjoining good and forbidding evil, as well as in the performance of God's rites. The rulers and state officials have adhered to that course. The people, too, have adhered to it in their daily lives. Islam is a way of life. There can be no neglecting what has been included in God's Book (The Holy Qur'an), what has been authenticated of the Prophet's traditions, or what Muslims have unanimously agreed on. Our constitution in the Kingdom is the Holy Book of God, which is infallible, and the Traditions (Sunna) of His Messenger, who does not speak irresponsibly. Whatever we disagree on we refer back to them. They both are arbiters on all laws issued by the State. Rulers and ulema (religious scholars) in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia have cooperated, and still are cooperating and helping each other. Similarly, the people have been, and still are, supportive of, cooperative with and obedient to their leadership according to the legal pledge of allegiance (bay'a) rendered by the ruled to the rulers. The ruler fulfills his obligations with regard to the implementation of the Sharia, the establishment of justice among the people and the defense of legitimate individual rights. The society, therefore, enjoys security, stability and prosperity. In the past and present, the Kingdom, has been and is committed to the Sharia and to implementing it vigorously and firmly in all its domestic and foreign affairs. With the help of God, it will remain keenly committed to the Sharia. With the help of Almighty God, we hold firm to Islam and advise each other, generation after generation, ruler after ruler. As promised by God, there can be no harm done to us by those who oppose us. We do not close the door on any aspect of modernization, so long as it does not conflict with our Islamic heritage and identity. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an Arab Islamic State. All matters that concern Arabs and Muslims will be its concerns. The State promotes their solidarity and their unity of opinion and contributes, with all its capabilities, to their welfare. Past events and circumstances have indeed witnessed the truth of its stances and the fulfillment of its commitments towards the Arab Nation and the Islamic Nation as well as towards other international obligations. Compatriots: With the help of God, we will continue upon our Islamic course, cooperating with those who want good for Islam and Moslems, and determined to consolidate and disseminate the religion of God and to ensure progress for this country and happiness for its people. We ask Almighty God to bestow on our people and on the Arab Nation and the Islamic Nation goodness, righteousness, progress, prosperity and welfare. Praise be to God, by whose grace all righteous deeds are done! As you can see Bilan there is no difference between the Saudi government or the Saudi Sheikhs.

8. We worship Allaah by obeying the rulers, as long as they are Muslims who seek judgement through Allaah’s Legislation and who establish the prescribed punishments, and as long as they establish the prayer. Obeying them is an obligation even if they commit oppression. And whoever says something contrary to this and makes it permissible to revolt against the Muslim leader, even if he may be oppressive, then he is an innovator and a deviant. And it is obligatory on the Muslim scholars to refute this statement of his and to expose his deviance. 9. We hold that it is not permissible to spread the faults of the leaders, because doing this influences and brings about trials and afflictions (fitan), and causes them to spread. Of course the Salafi will always support the oppression of the Saudi family since they formed alliance with the founder of the salafi movement Mohammad ibn Abd-al Wahhab. According to the Salafi rules 8-9 it was wrong for the somali people to fight against the former dictator and it would be wrong right now to fight against all the warlords roaming in Somalia as long as they are muslims and pray. Salafi claim that it is an innovation to remember the Prophet's (saw) birthday while they celebrate every year KINGDOM OF SAUDI ARABIA DAY the day that the two families (the Saudis and the Wahhabis took over the Arabian Peninsula). Why the Salafi accept this or it is because of rule 8 & 9? Abdallah ibn Umar narrates that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said:"O Allah! Bless our Sham and our Yemen." They (the sahaba) said: "Our Najd as well." The Messenger of Allah (saw)again said "O Allah! Bless our Sham and our Yemen." They said again "Our Najd as well" The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: " There, will appear earthquakes and tribulations and from there will rise the horn of Shaytan" SAHIH BUKHARI No. 990

The break up of the Muslims is brought about by the Muslims themselves, by their own learned ones who made the interpretations, sincerely and faithfully sometimes but self-serving in many cases. It is they, these interpreters of Islam who have broken us up into so many antagonistic sects. Unless we admit this and stop blaming others, we will not be able to make any corrections, to bring the ummah back together again. I agree with Dr. Mahathir Mohamad. There were no shias or sunnis at the time of the Prophet(saw). Unless we start uniting and stop calling each others names we will always be under oppression. Unity is the key whether we are sunnis or shias. Whenever we hear or read people who talk about their sect been the only guided one and calling others non muslims then we should challenge them and ask them to give us proof of their believes. The biggest threat in the muslim unity is not from the non muslim but from some sects trying to impose their views on the rest of us. Whether we liked or not we are all following Sheikhs or Imams. Look at the different threads all of them follow Sheikh so and so or Imam so and so. Why can't we follow what we think is right and respect each other without insulting each other.

Mmmm! I thought Abu Musab was an "American imagination". Isn't strange that the Americans always have a man that they cannot capture in every land they occupy? May Allah forgive Al-Shami. I just hope he wasn't involved in the killing of the innocent Iraqis at the markets, masjids etc.

What a sad story. May Allah forgive her and give her the strenght to deal with her sufferings. I hope that Sheikh Ibrahim or any other Sheikh would go and visit her and comfort her in these difficult times and explain to her how to deal with her problems.

My deepest condolences OG to you and your family. My Allah forgive your dad and bless him with Jannah. The right of your father is that you know that he is your root and you are his branch. Without him, you would not be. Whenever you see anything in yourself which pleases you, know that your father is the origin of its blessing upon you. Therefore, praise Allah and thank Him in that measure. All power belongs to Allah. From the book rights of relatives. May Allah give you patience in this difficult time. Ameen

Talk about darma queen now "And tell My servants to say that which is best. Indeed, Satan induces (dissension) among them. Indeed Satan is ever, to mankind, a clear enemy" (Qur'an 17:53) "And do not turn your cheek (in contempt) toward people and do not walk through the earth exultantly. Indeed, Allah does not like everyone self-deluded and boastful" "And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreable of sounds is the voice of donkeys." (Qur'an 31:18-19)

Sakina, first of all our madhab is not the four imams rather our madhab is the quran and suunah what the prophet SAW has left us with. Theses four imam are upon the haq they follow the quran and sunnah according to way of the salaf, so does Shaikh Naasir ud-Din al-Albaani, Shaikh `Abdul-`Aziz Bin Baz, Shaikh Ibn Uthaimeen and others. Therefore we should follow all of these ulamas collectively with daleel (evidence) and not attach our self to a particular imam or sheikh, we shouldn’t call our selfs shaficii ar hanafii in the same way we shouldn’t say I am a wahabi or uthaimeeni ect. Rather we should be a muslim who is upon the quran and sunnah according to the salaf as salih those generations who where clear from confusion misguidance. Shaikh Naasir ud-Din al-Albaani, Shaikh `Abdul-`Aziz Bin Baz, are contemporary Salafi Sheikhs. How did they arrive to the conclusion that this new sect "Salafi" is the right one? Who was the founder of this particular madhhab? Was he a Salafi? And most of all why the FOUNDER of this madhhab is hardly named and when I ask directly to name him I still get vague answers. I am not saying that the Salafis are wrong. All I am saying is that since some Somali Sheikhs are preaching that this madhhab is the right one and somalis should follow only them then they should at least convince us why we should follow this sect and who is the founder and what makes him more knowlegeable than the prominent known Salafi Imams.

May Allah help us muslims from people who play with our shariah law. This is a sad day for all muslims when the teachings of our beloved Prophet (saw) are misused in this way. If the Sahabas where alive they would have stopped this nonsense going on in Saudi Arabia. These 6 men if they committed these crimes then I believe they got more than the punishment Allah ordained. The judge that ordered these murders he might think that he is above the law but he is forgetting that we will all face the Creator sooner or later and I would like to know what his answer will be when asked about these crimes he has committed. Who is worse a thief or a murderer. That is how I see; these 6 men were thieves but the judge is a murderer. May Allah punish him with the right punishment.

The Saudi Government has a history of changing the Sharia as they like. Now I would like to know if the punishment for stealing is by death or not? From my understanding is that stealing is a crime against society therefore they should cut their hand if it is a repeat crime also the other hand and the feet. I've never heard of cutting the head of a thief that did not kill a person. Unfortunately the Maxkamadda Islaamiga ee Muqdishu uses the same rules they copy from the Saudi Government that is why they cut the hand of an underage child that stole a thermos of tea because he was hungry. There is always a cause and effect. What is happening in the Maxkamadda Islaamiga in Somalia is the effect. The cause is where they are getting this untisharia laws from and we need to educate ourselves about the cause instead of blaming the effect. If these 6 men were robbers then cut their hands. Whoever took their lives should also be prosecuted and brought to justice. That is my opinion.

Unbelievable! They murder 6 somali men and even if it is true that they robbed the taxi drivers (we still don't know if that is true) according to the Shariah they should cut their hands and not their heads. More unbelievable instead of condemning this so called Royal Family that not only took by force the two holliest cities in Islam but also stole the whole country and named after their own family name. My question is how can a thief condemn another thief to death when they actualy usurped the land in the first place. It is true that we don't have a government but we as somalis can do something about it by condemning out loud in front of their embassies (peacefully), writting letters, e-mail etc. We always see somalis out in the street when we have manifastations for supporting the Palestinian cause, why can't we do the same when our own brothers are murdered in this way instead of blaming the victims. Even if they were thieves they should have gotten the right punishement.

Ukhti Muslimah you quoted what the four Imams (Abu Hanafee, Malik, Shafiee and Ibn Hanbal) said whether we should blindly follow them or not. Could you please quote what the Salaf leader said about this issue and could you also name him as you did with the other four madhabs imams? Why the Salafs hardly name their imam's name and only use general reference of him?

the phrophit SAW said "this Ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of them in the Hellfire but one". They said, which one is this O Messenger of Allaah? He replied, "They are those who are upon what I and my companions are upon today". Hence Salafiyyah is a group of people (i.e. the Salafis) upon the madhhab of the Salaf, upon what the Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) and his companions were upon. Ukhti Muslimah; isn't the Salafi sect one of the seventy-three sects? How do we know they are the ones who will go to Jannah? Any sect can choose a name that suit them and why we only heard of this particular name in the early 18th century? What were they called before that and who was their leader? Why they always supported the dictatorship of the Saudi family? Nobody hates them it is just that people are suspicious of their link with the Saudis and their thinking that they are the choosen sect. If the Salafis want to be taken seriously I think they need to answer all the questions people have of them. From my past experience whenever they cannot answer questions they just start attacking people calling them names and changing the subject altoghether. Ukhti Muslimah who are the Salafis and why are they different from the Malikis, Shafis or Hanifis aren't these sects muslims too. Which one is the saved sect?

But about the digging up of colonial Italian bones: that was just sick and wrong but it shouldn't be used as a catalyst to wage a war against shieks in Somalia and Mogadishu. Wind.talker if the Sheikhs condemned this action Bashir Goth would never have an excuse to write articles like this. Brother Nur The e-Nuri conversation is it real or a fiction? Did you have this conversation with Goth?

Abu Yusuf I hope you will read these books I am quoting yourself and not rely on others interpretations. Allah sits on al-Kursi and has left a space for the Messenger of Allah to sit with Him. Ahmad Ibn Taymiyyah, "Kitab-ul-’Arsh" Allah, ta’ala, has a hadd no one but Him knows it. One should not imagine that hadd for a purpose in himself, but believe it and leave knowing about it to Allah. His place has a hadd, which is on His ‘Arsh above His skies. In "al-Muwafaqah", page 29, Ibn Taymiyyah In the twenty-fifth volume of "al-Kawakib-ud-Darari", which is in the Library of az-Zahiriyyah in Damascus, Ibn Taymiyyah said: If Allah willed he would sit on a mosqito, which would carry Him by His power; how about on a large ‘Arsh! The elevation of Allâh (swt) over the Throne is literal, and the elevation of the creature over the ship is literal" (lillâhi ta`âla istiwâ'un `alâ `arshihi h.aqîqatan wa li al-`abdi istiwâ'un `alâ al-fulki h.aqîqatan). "Allâh is with us literally, and He is above His Throne literally (Allâhu ma`ana h.aqîqatan wa huwa fawqa al-`arshi h.aqîqatan).Ibn Taymiyya, Majmû`at al-Fatâwâ (5:199) You can find more in his other books al-Aqeedah al-Hamawiyya, and al-Wasitiyya etc.

Brother Nur, all these Sheikhs accused each other of heresy not me. Infact if you have any of Ibn Tamiyya's books you will find him calling almost all the people who don't agree with him as a non believer as do the wahhabi/salafi sect. All I am trying to do here is to show others point of view who existed before the salafi movement. Since you did not comment on the proofs you asked I assume that they must be true. As I said before lets stick to the discussion. This is one of the reasons why Ibn Tamiyya was jailed. "The elevation of Allâh (swt) over the Throne is literal, and the elevation of the creature over the ship is literal" (lillâhi ta`âla istiwâ'un `alâ `arshihi h.aqîqatan wa li al-`abdi istiwâ'un `alâ al-fulki h.aqîqatan). "Allâh is with us literally, and He is above His Throne literally (Allâhu ma`ana h.aqîqatan wa huwa fawqa al-`arshi h.aqîqatan).Ibn Taymiyya, Majmû`at al-Fatâwâ (5:199)

Salafi da'wa I never accused anyone of being a kafir as brother Nur accuses me of. I hope you and I will have as you said Perhaps we can make this a meaningful discussion Unfortunately I had a negative experience with brother Nur in another thread and I hope he is not going to attack me personally and stick to the discussion. This is a short overview of one of the greatest man to ever walk on earth, The demolisher of the foundation and appalling beliefs of the heretics and innovators, the people of desires, the filty diseased Sufies(may Allah guide them back to Islam) and their Gods, Ahlul-Kaalam! This quote of yours caught my attention since I've heard and read about other Sheikhs accusing Ibn Tamiyya of the same thing. The sunni scholars that reached the decisions to imprison him quoted several as they called "innovations" one of those accusations was that Ibn Tamiyya invented multiple Tawhid, Tawhid al rububiyya and Tawheed al uluhiyya and said that the muslims who did not follow tawheed al uluhiyya were unbelievers. They also accused him of giving Allah a body: His claim regarding the narration of `Abd Allâh ibn Khalîfa from `Umar whereby "the Prophet glorified Allâh and said: `Verily, His Seat of Authority (kursî) encompasses the heavens and the earth, and verily He sits on it (innahu yajlisu `alayh) and there does not remain of it [but] a space of four fingers, and verily it groans like the sound of the new saddle when one mounts it, due to His weight pressing down on it'" commentary on Sûrat al-`Alaq in Ibn Taymiyya, Majmû`at Rasâ'il (16:435). "The elevation of Allâh (swt) over the Throne is literal, and the elevation of the creature over the ship is literal" (lillâhi ta`âla istiwâ'un `alâ `arshihi h.aqîqatan wa li al-`abdi istiwâ'un `alâ al-fulki h.aqîqatan). "Allâh is with us literally, and He is above His Throne literally (Allâhu ma`ana h.aqîqatan wa huwa fawqa al-`arshi h.aqîqatan).Ibn Taymiyya, Majmû`at al-Fatâwâ (5:199)

For some Ibn Tamiyya was a great scholar for most of the sunni schools of thought he was an innovator. Here is an article about Ibn Tamiyya according to ahlulsunna point of view. Ibn Taymiyah (d. 728/1328) was a theologian who was sent to the jail by the consensus (Ijma'a) of prominent Sunni scholars of his time (in Egypt and Damascus) because of his heretical beliefs. He was considered an innovator and a heretic and some Sunni scholars went so far as to declare his writings as Kufr. However, now he has become a Muslim scholar for Wahhabis. I don't want to go into the details of the charges against Ibn Taymiyah which was raised by prominent Sunni scholars about his heretical beliefs such as his idea that Allah has limbs and these limbs are physical (Haqiqi) and so on since it needs thousands of lines by itself. Among those Sunni scholars who denounced him, are Taqi al-Din Subki, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ibn Hajar al- Asqalani, al-Izz ibn Jama'a, Muhammad Zahid al-Kawthari, Abu Hayyan al-Andalusi, Shaykh Ahmad Ibn Zayni dihlani, Shaykh Mohammad Ouwayss from al-Azhar, and many others. In their fatwa, they called Ibn Taymiyah as a misguided person who was deserting the Sunni tenets. I refer an authentic Fiqh book called "The Reliance of the Traveller" for a biography of Ibn Taymiyah. As far as the subject of wahabbis is concerned: WAHABBIS The founder of Wahhabism was Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab of Banu Tamim tribe. He was born in Uyaina village near Huraimila town in the Najd Desert in 1111 and died 1206(1792). Formerly, with the idea of travelling and trading, he went to Basra , Baghdad, Iran, India and Damascus, where he won the name "Shaikh an-Najdi" because of his clever and defeatist attitude. He saw and learnt a great deal at these places and set his heart on the idea of becoming a chief. He had thought it proper a to found a new religious reformation and movement to reach his goal , and, in preparation for this goal, attended the lectures of the Hanbali 'ulama' in the blessed city of Medina and later in Damascus for some time. When he went back to the Najd, he wrote pamphlets on religious subjects for villagers. His harmful, heretical ideas which he took from Mu'tazila and other bid'a-groups and introduced in these small books deceived many ignorant villagers, particularly the inhabitants of Dar'iyya and their ignorant chief, Muhammed ibn Sa'ud (grand grand father of saudi royal family) as a tool to disseminate his reformation which he named Wahhabism. He introduced himself as the qadi and Muhammed ibn Saud as the Hakim. He had it declared that both would be succeeded only by their children In 1306 when the book Mirat al-Haramain was written, the amir of the Najd, 'Abdullah ibn Faisal, was a descendant of Muhammed ibn Sa'ud, and the qadi, that is, the head of religious affairs, was a descendant of Muhammed ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab. Mumammed ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's father , ''Abd al-Wahhab, who was a pious pure alim in Medina, his brother Sulaiman ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his masters had apprehended from his statements, behaviour and heretical ideas, which he frequently had put forward as questions to them when he was a student in Medina, that he would harm Islam from inside in future. They advised him to correct his ideas and the Muslims to avoid him. But they encountered the very thing they were afraid of very untimely, and he started disseminating his heretical ideas openly under the name of Wahhabism. To deceive the ignorant, ****** people, he came forward with reformism and innovations much impetuous to deem as kafirs the true Muslims who followed the Ahl as-Sunnat wa'l-Jamaa. He regarded it polytheism to ask Allahu taala for something through the mediation of the Prophet or other Prophets or awliya and to visit their graves. According to Muhammed ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab, the person who talks to the dead, when praying near a grave becomes a mushrik ( Fat'h al-majid, p208) He asserted that attributing an action or effect to someone or something beside Allah, for example , saying "[such and such] medicine cured" or " I obtained whatI asked through our master Rasulullah" was polytheism, and the Muslim who said so would become polytheist. Although the false documents Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab made up to support his statements were nothing but all lies and slanders, the ignorant people who couldn't distinguish right from wrong, the unemployed , opportunists and the hard-hearted soon accepted his ideas and took part of his side and regarded the pious Muslims of the right path as kafirs. When Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab applied to the rulers of Dar'iyya with the view of disseminating his heresies easily through them, they willingly cooperated with him with the hope of extending their territories and increasing their power. THey strove with all their might to disseminate his ideas everywhere. They declared war against those who refused and opposed another in joining the army of Muhammed ibn Sa'ud when it was said that it is halal to plunder and kill non-Wahhabis. In 1143, Muhammed ibn Sa'ud and Muhammed ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab hand in arrived at the conclusion, that those who wouldn't accept Wahhabism were kafirs and mushriks and it was halal to kill them and confiscate their possessions, and publicly announced their declaration seven years later. Then Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started fabricating ijtihad when he was thirty-two years old and announced his false ijtihads at forty. As-Sayyid Ahmad ibn Zaini Dahlan, Mufti of the blessed city of Mecca, described under the topic "Al-fitnat al-Wahhabiyya" the heretical tenest of Wahhabism and the tortures of the Wahhabis inflicted upon Muslims (Al-futuhat al-Islamiyya, v2, p228-233, Cairo 1968) Hw wrote: " To deceive the Ahl as-Sunna 'ulama' in Mecca and Medina , the Wahhabis sent their men to cities, but these men could not answer the questions of ulama. It became evident that they were ignorant heretics. A verdict about their being disbleivers was written and issued everywhere. Sharif Mas'ud ibn Sa'id , Amir of Mecca, ordered that the Wahhabis shall be imprisoned. Some Wahhabis fled to Dari'yya and told what had happened to them. The ulama of Hijaz belonging to all the four madhhabs, including Muhammed ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's brother Shaikh Sulaiman and also his masters who trained him studied Muhammad's books, prepared answers to his disunioninst writings, which were distructive to Islam, and wrote, to call the attention of Muslims, well-documented books in refutation to his heretical writings and proclaimed Wahhabite tenets to be heretical and harmful.

Bismillah, I think this is very disgusting. Human remains should be buried with dignity. They can destroy the tombs but the human remains should not be interfered with. The Islamic courts are doing a good job but they are wrong on this one. Which Islamic court are we talking about? The only Islamic court that destroys tombs are the Wahhabi/Salafis. Look what they have done to the tombs of the sahabas while building a museum to their so called "keepers of the two Holy Mosques". By the way why the famous somali salafi sheikh "Omar Farooq" didn't condemn these awful actions? These people all work for the Saudis and get their paycheques from their king so whatever is happening in Somalia it has already happened in Mecca and Medina. As long as the Salafis are managing the Sharia in Somalia there will be no hope for a peaceful Somalia.

Unfortunately many somalis follow this sect without knowing their origin. Let me share with you an article that summarize their origin. The Rise of Political Islam : Wahhabism and Neo-Salafism The Wahhabis -- or Salafis, as they prefer to be known -- represent one of the most powerful influences on contemporary Islam. A radical religious-reform movement with strong political overtones, the Wahhabis provide the ideological impetus and theological justification for many of the best-known Islamist or Islamic fundamentalist groups -- from populist movements like Pakistan’s Jamaat-i Islami and Algeria’s Islamic Salvation Front to terrorist organizations like Egypt’s al-Jihad and the international terrorist network al-Qaeda. Wahhabism is also the state religion of Saudi Arabia, a fact that contributes greatly to its power and influence in the world today. Many traditional Islamic scholars consider the Wahhabi doctrine heretical, and the vast majority of mainstream Muslims eschew it. Nonetheless, Wahhabism continues to spread through the financial support of the Saudis and its appeal to the people in the Muslim world who are critical of the West’s cultural influence on Islam and who want a return to traditional Islam. HISTORY OF THE WAHHABI MOVEMENT The Wahhabi movement began some 250 years ago as a relatively obscure schismatic sect based among the Bedouin tribes of eastern Arabia. It was founded by Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab (1703-92), a theological firebrand who believed that innumerable errors and innovations had corrupted Islam’s original message, and who set out to purge them with puritanical zeal. He and his followers denounced many aspects of the religion, including mysticism and traditional Islamic jurisprudence. This allowed the Wahhabis to reinterpret Islam without reference to previously accepted beliefs, traditions and norms. To emphasize this point, the Wahhabis declared most scholars and religious thinkers who preceded them “unbelievers†and announced that any Muslims who did not embrace their new doctrine would, along with Jews and Christians, be viewed as “enemies of Islam.†The mainstream scholars of his day quickly branded Abdul-Wahhab as a heretic, but he forged a political alliance with Muhammad ibn Saud, a powerful tribal chief in the Najd region of Arabia. Together, they launched a bloody insurrection against the Ottoman Empire in 1744. The rebellion was soon crushed, but the descendants of the two men continued to work together to promote Wahhabism and undermine the authority of the Ottoman state. With the help of the British, the Wahhabis launched a new revolt on the eve of World War I. This time they were more successful, helping to destroy the Ottoman Empire and ultimately establishing the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. THE EMERGENCE OF THE NEO-SALAFIS Some organizations, such as the Muslim Brotherhood movement, eschewed the Wahhabi appellation and dubbed themselves “Salafis†-- a reference to the last generation of early Muslims, whom Abdul-Wahhab believed still practiced the “pure faith.†Like their predecessors, they rejected classical Islamic theology and jurisprudence. At the same time, they began constructing a new paradigm that drew heavily on modernist ideas of national liberation and Marxian notions of world revolution. Increasingly, these neo-Salafi groups defined themselves in opposition to the West. Their goals, however, remained as much religious as political. They continued the process of “purifying†Islam begun by their Wahhabi predecessors. In practice, this led to the oppression of women, a growing intolerance for other faiths and, more recently, the sanctioning of terrorist violence -- all things which Islam traditionally forbade, but which the Wahhabi reinterpretation of the religion allowed. SAUDI ARABIA’S STATE RELIGION Nowhere are the results of these efforts more apparent than in Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism has become the official sect, and the alliance between the Saud family and the descendants of Abdul-Wahhab remains the basis of government. The tremendous wealth of the Saudi state has fueled a worldwide campaign to promote the Wahhabi view of Islam, resulting in the financing of publishing houses, religious schools, mosques and charities around the world. The March 1, 2002, edition of Ain al-Yaqeen, the official Saudi English-language weekly, documented the success of this widespread promotional campaign: “In terms of Islamic institutions, the result is some 210 Islamic centers wholly or partly financed by Saudi Arabia, more than 1,500 mosques and 202 colleges and almost 2,000 schools for educating Muslim children in non-Islamic countries.†Many experts say this financial support has given the Wahhabi or neo-Salafi movement a voice entirely disproportionate to its numbers. “The Saudi state and its religious hierarchy are major producers and exporters of Salafi publications, missionary operations and humanitarian assistance,†says Dr. Quintan Wiktorowicz, professor of international studies at Rhodes College in Memphis, Tenn. “The transnational organization of the movement, which incorporates a myriad of nationalities, renders it an effective and influential force in the Muslim world.†WARNING Wahhabis today call themselves "Salafis," in an attempt to confuse the Muslim masses that they adhere to the methodology of the pious Salaf, or predecessors, i.e. the Sahabahs, the Tabi’un, and Itba’u-t-Tabi’in. For example, some of the true Salaf applied ta’wil, or figurative interpretation, to Allah’s Attributes. Imam Bukhari gave a figurative interpretation of wajh to mean "Allah’s Dominion," in Suratu-l-Qasas, ayah 88. This can be found in the Sahih of Bukhari in the Chapter "Tafsir ul-Qur’an." Plenty of other examples exist of how the Wahhabi-Salafis oppose the practices of the true and pious Salaf. The following writers are representatives of this cult. Their followers call them "Shaykhs", and Muslims must stay away from their books, papers and Web pages, and do not confuse them with real Sunni scholars: Yusuf al-Qaradawi al-Misri (the one who says that salah in al-Aqsa is "haram". He unites the errors of Wahhabis and the errors of Ikhwanis in a new form of heresy. He also claims that suicide terror attacks finalized to the assassination of civilians are "lawful" in Islam). ‘Abdu-l-‘Aziz Ibn Baz (the deceased official "Mufti" of the Saudi regime and their Rabitah, who oppressed Ahlu-s-Sunnah in al-Haramayn). Muhammad Nasiru-d-Din al-Albani (a recently disappeared pseudo-muhaddith from Albania who classified hadiths according to his unlimited fantasy and forbade women to wear golden ornament). Abu Aminah Bilal Philips (a ultra-Wahhabi from Jamaica who forges claims in the history of fiqh, full of slanders and absurd accusations against Ahlu-s-Sunnah). Muhammad Nubar Yahya Silmy (a propagandist of Wahhabism in Sri Lanka who is very much hostile to the Sunni ‘aqidah). Shiraz Mohammadali (a former Shi'ite from Sri Lanka who converted to Wahhabism and fanatically supports all of al-Albani's heresies) Abu Bilal Mustafah al-Kanadi. Muhammad Saleh ibn Al-Uthaymin (an anthropomorphist who believes that Allah is "located in the upper direction"). Saleh Fawzan Al-Fawzan. 'Abdur-Rahman Rosario Pasquini (an Ikhwani propagandist in Milano who, because of senescence, supports linguistic bid'at like "Allah is monopersonal" - sic! - "Muslims are islamocratics", wa na'udhu bi-Llah, afala yatadhakkarun).

With so many different schools of thought or madhhabs how do we choose "the expert scholars to follow" when all of them say that they are following the Qur'an and Hadith and some of them going as far as accusing fellow muslims of being kuffar? For instance the Jamiatul Ulama which school of thought are they following? Do they accept other expert Ulumas opinions? Do we have names of Ulumas to follow?

Since when Osama bin Laden became a Sheikh :confused:

I just read the Da Vince Code. Well written. Full of historic facts.