Originally posted by Animal Farm: Nurudin Farah won’t republish his previous works, because he had close ties with the Barre regime and he wrote in their favour. AF, i was under the impression that he was against the Barre Regime, If my memory doesen´t fail me , i remember him criticising the Barre Regime right in our living room.!!

Though living together without beeing married to each other is religiously forbidden, bringing a goodlooking strange in your life is not a better alternative, so how to go about? A virtual test marriage? A period where you consider yourself married while infact you´re not.

Xiin, Atheer , let me sqeeze a lil bit more , a drop or two might just be left. Isen´t it amazing to see Sheikh Nur asking for a reason instead of a sign to beleive in something?, Hade Cara and co somehow succeeded in banging in the some rationality in the good Sheikhs´s head? you tell me. Sheikh Nur, let us not turn this thread into a "JB the persona "thread, as i wont be able to teach you the core concepts of Natural Skepticism/Agnoticism/Atheism. Unlike in religious belifs, where one claims to have an urge to save lifes(souls),and preachs what one perceives as the Absolute truth, but end up pounding that very truth in the minds and hearts of "the to be saved people" enforcing it by intellectual dishonesty and by violence, as in the case of this War of the Camel. Sheikh Nur, Skepticism is the innocent five years old child´s question " Dad, where does God live?", and if you be cincere enough to both to SOL and to yourself, you sure will have loads of repressed innocent childhood questions to ponder on. Sheikh Nur,A Skeptic doesen´t have the need to make a ' Dawa', A Skeptic naturally questions claims that he or she finds unsubstantiated, And SOL is not intrested in neither my intentions nor my motives, unless you´re a Judge of sort who feels so desperate and conspired against. Islam is the religion of my Mother and as far as i know nobody has a monopoly on that faith, so relax and put off the "Mujahid" mask, i´ve seen it defended in more sophisticated manner than you seem to facilitate. My cousin who doesn´t speak Arabic seems to reason slightly better. Back to War of the Camel, who won it? and what do you think of cause of those who died in that war?

Sheikh Nur, i see you´re still revelling in your old theme of "concpiracy againt us" rhetoric. If we shift the attention from the blurry, ambiguous and sometimes contradictory religious messages that you and few other self-proclaimed cyber-Mullahs pour in this forum, with which you unjustifiedly demand a position of distinction, respect and what not, and concentrate on what motivates ME. Sheikh Nur, I´m a law-abiding citizen who makes decent life through a professional JOB, i´ve a wonderful life but since you are redundant regarding my profile , let me for the record assure you once and for good that i´ve a girl-freind that i´m satisfied with. that i do disagree with your papal bulls every now and then shoulden´t bother you so much, beleive you me , sometimes i´ve had let you get away with plain rubish. As you seem to understand very little (if anything) about natural Skepticism/Agnoticism/Atheism and Natural Theology , let me assure you my Sheikh that no one is more serious in finding God than a Skeptic/Agnotic/Atheistic person. A pure and plain dedication to the TRUTH and unwaving cincerity are prerequisites for real knowledge, It´s too sad that you´re bilinded by negativity and " we against them" mentality that you even entertain the thought of me geeting paid by someone to just get to you and your imaginary camp. more to come !!!

It´s intresting topic , Ever since Ameenah hushed me, personally i´ve been wondering the significance of this so called war of camels to Islam in general and killing for ones belif in particular. Though i realize and respect Nur and Khashafa´s sweeping of it as a simple disagreement (misunderstanding if u like )between two equally faithful, pious and equally correct people , namely Aisha and Ali. What intrests me is neither Khashafa´s resorting to personal and charechter belitteling of SB, (that is a standard ) nor Nur´s "show´m boi" lofty attitude of justifying the killing and death of both the Army of Aisha and the army of Ali by other fellow Muslims. but the question of political Islam, where having faith and worshipping a Deity that cares about the well-beeing of Humanity is translated into killing human beeings in the name of the good. More intresting is the low level of tolerance even among the belivers of the same Deity whose words and intentions are beeing interpreted so diffrently that a human beeing has to die. It makes one wonder if that very Deity is intrested in defining itself better and clarify one or two ambiguous messages supposedly from that very Deity that cause a human beeing to kill another human beeing for supposedly beeing wrong.

^I happen to have a twin sister , that means i´m a candidate to have twins right? Now , all i need is to hish away all those girls looking for shortcuts who wanna go through the hell of delivering just once. ooooooooh mama, am here for the taking

^Oh , My Sunday !!!

Abti , you can´t have a State that is a State with or without the Transitional government( did you skip the term "federal" on purpose ?), either Puntland is a State among other States in a Republic or it is a soverign State. Now what is the problem Abti?, Isen´t Puntland having enough internal problems of it´s own? does it need to solve the TFG ´s problems too? Or the unholy intermarriage is true and Puntland´s problems are the TFG´s and vice versa?

My understanding of governments and the TFG may be non existent, but my understanding of the Puntland State beeing in position to declare Gheddi or JB for that matter a persona non grata is unmistakenly accutare. Puntland "state" runs Puntland affairs unless an invisible equation of Puntland to the Republic is secrectly adapted. And likewise , his axcptance of the nomination was regarded as a fatal mistake by me and the late Juma , and that from day one . Now , redifine Puntland´s role as a State abti and try not to ruin my sunday

There is a reason to why Puntland state , (the one and only "state" in a supposedly federal states of a Republic )fell short to declare Col Yey the President, a persona non grata too , since Gheddi is his Prime minster. that reason is just as Abti Duke highlighted , Col Yey too mistook Puntland for something else.

Allamagan , you may need to repent for begging / wishing things from your 'Allah',using the wrong language( your native language ), but neither Mr Hersi Ali nor any other Somali will ever need to do so, becouse their God happens to understand Somali.

In a normal day , one would ask the normally entailing question, " What is(was) her crime against Somalia and Somalis"?. but given all the trivial judgements on her already , i´m as stunned as Caano geel , will Somaliweyn ( an identity swarming with individuals worse than herself )embrace her ?

Even if we accept the Islamic justification of the idea that Men could use their women-slaves whenever they needed,the equally unjust,but not mentioned idea of women having their Male-slaves whenever needed is left unjustified. As always, there is an interpretation of sort ( often from a specefic prepective ) as to why it was just so. very intresting !!

Graduating means simply getting liberated from beeing bookworm,but not from beeing a worm,Welcome to the liberated world of sandworms. Congrats SOTIC !!

Originally posted by Nur: JB You ask two logically contradicting questions, it is OK to be logically challenged, but help is on the way saaxib, I know what you are going through, a period of aimlessness and a void you dont know how to fill except to argue to spread ignorance when people are thirsty for knowledge.

Sheikh Nur,In the begining when you said : "As for my proofs, since I am the one who made the claim that there is Allah, here are they, let us discuss their validity, in a result oriented way:" I thought you´d some sincere and concrete proofs to share, boy, am i disappointed !! Now when you say : "Wron argument buddy, you are really missing the point JB, I have invited Cara to the dialogue, between the two of us, a believer and a non believer. Take Allah out of the argument for now, since she does not believe in Allah, and assume the Quraan as my argument to prove Allah's existence, where is the problem JB? why cant you accept? are you afraid you cant answer?" and try to hang on to using the Quran( which you claim to be the words of your Allah ) as part of your proof for the existance of your Allah and thus portray it as crucial part of a solid proof that is feared and avoided by Agnostic/Atheistic people, you seem to want to keep me in this dead thread by deliberately beeing intellectually dishonest. Sincerity and honesty are crucial ingrediences for having such a serious dialogue, and you seem to lack that,for that reason this thread died long before it came to life. Nur, what would the point of contention of an Angostic/Atheistic person be if you take the claim of Allah´s existance out of the picture? How can you be presenting a proof for validation and evaluation regarding your Allah´s existance when you insist using the supposed words of the very Deity whose existance is in question? better yet , what would you claim of Agnostic/Atheistic people conducting an empty life mean if your Allah was out of the argument? Those whose concrete existance can be proven, can supposedly be argued to have said something. The problem with your position is crystal clear to anybody with a sincere hope to venture a responsible opinion . Nur, it only takes one failure of intellectual integrity to corrupt one's thinking and come to wrong conclusions. If we fail our intellectual integrity and assume a single wrong notion to be true, example " Bishitta is a tall person " ,then arguing that she is 3cm taller or 3cm shorter than the everage Model is a sidekick as long as Bishitta is actually not a tall person, thus my Allah says so is a sidekick as long as you haven´t concretely proved the existance of your Allah as you promised. Now having said that , you may use the Quran as much as you please , any attemp by the quran that states the existance of your Allah will be self-defeating, and all you´ll be saying will be " My Allah exists becouse My Allah says so ". And that wraps it for me.

My beloved Sheikh Nur, Something tells me that you´re in dire need of those DVDs Castro is talking about , and i need to learn Arabic. When again say : "The symmetry is, if I am not allowed to use Quraan as a convincing tool, because cara does not believe, then, I shouldnt be expected to allow Cara to use Agnostic arguments that contradict with my belief." You´re off the mark, probably in a state of rapture . A: Xiin has a green natural hair. B: really? A: don´t apply skepticism towards my position as i don´t apply it towards your position. Sheikh Nur, the position of the Skeptic IS the default position, while yours is the extraordinary position of absolutely possitively certain knowledge. You see B politely questions the truthfullness of A´s claim, B lacks claim, so A can´t question B´s position. simple. That is the reason behind what you perceived as a rediculing from my part, I´ve no reason whatissoever to redicule my Sheikh, on the contrary , i think my Sheikh will only get stronger after few doses of sound logic. Bishy, Älskling , your words are my orders, this is the my last post on this thread.

Sheikh Nur, when you say " Johnny Boy's redicule of my usage of Quran as my argument is not symmetrically applied across both sides of dialogue ", You´re patently wrong becouse , Cara´s position is not claiming possitively a knowledge of Allah, it´s your claim of possession of such knowledge, that is in question. and if you think you can demand of Cara (or any other person who happens to hold diffrent idea than yours, or has no clue of what you´re talking about ) NOT to use or apply any skepticism towards your extraordinary claim, yoy´re not applying logic Sheikh Nur, you´re begging us to swollow your extraordinary claims with line and stinker, I´m sorry but some of us prefer knowing what they swollow. Now ,you may blame me forever. Sheikh Nur, Asking Cara what books she reads or what movies she watches is irrelevant to this grandstanding of yours, Cara lives an empty life according to you , so why bother ? you´re not entertaining an empty Agnostic life are you?, do i need to remind you that this grandstanding is the offspring of your saddistic claim that Agnostic/Atheistic people conduct an empty life? My Graad Bashi. As much as i respect and sympathize with your burning desire to save the hulk and even get abstruct as you philosophise, just this one time, let us not take over Nur´s show. Ever heard of the adage never say never )? you´ve reasoned as to why we shoulden´t reason ,thus told us to NEVER say NEVER it is a nice adage , it is just that is tells a person not to do what is beeing done (right now). Your position engenders a fatal contradiction, it is self-refuting at best a self-annihilating to be frank , becouse you can´t reasonably reason to to call reason a dictator. Too many things have been claimed to have been the revealed thruth only to be enforced by way of human violence and intellectual dishonesty. When you say "For me the divine revelations occupies different sphere as it is the word of Allah" you may want to save your extraordinary claims from failing infront of a rational , objective and naturally questioning crowd, but inso doing sell it to a person who is under the ellusion of his imagination beeing a universal truth or common sense beeing based on some particular reason or pure intuition beeing the undeniable universal truth. i´ll be having difficulties proving you right or wrong , but as you sink into absurdity you won´t be able make your knowledge a universal truth.

Dragon , something tells me that you´ve alot to thank for the (JB-factor ), respect is granteed . while Xiin & co are busy in meditation praying for Naden, JB walks to Naden n whispers , " i hope you dont have a tail,i´m mastering the new butt-clap." , nice one Naden, hope you miss more episodes

I love Bishy , simple as that , do i exist? guess again.

Now that Nur and Cara decided to have a dialogue i ask the rest to hold back their comments towards Nur and Cara´s positions, untill each has posted 3 posts, that gives them the chance to both comment on the Oponent´s position and put forward their point of view and best of all not to worry about jibes from unexpected direction. After 3 rounds ( it can´t go forever ), the dialogue stops and people can have their say, remember the dialogue is between Nur and Cara , so whatever you may think of Cara´s or Nur´s posts for the sake of healthy dailogue stay away. you ´re not Nur and can not be Cara. Edit : As for the indication that beeing reasonable and logically sound is not necessary for communicating, let Nur make an attempt to convince SOL and the world of that without using logic and reasoning as to why, no sane person has bothered to try yet. thanks!

^^ My Graad, I see no dialogue (not even one with a thread of 500 pages )between Nur and Cara where Nur objectively proves the existance of his Allah rationally,thus comes to bedrock, and Cara´s neutral skepticism exactly demands that. what i see is, however, Nur revelling in his own personal perceptions( already started ) . And Cara (among many others , including myself )will walk away disappointed becouse the status Nur used to enjoy as our self-proclaimed resident sheikh proportioned to what he offers theologically as the solid proof, is a great disappointment of sort. not to only Islam but to all the Abrahamic religious heritage. A:How can you possitively proof your claim that your Allah exists? B: becouse my Allah says so and so... A: i see .. Nur, only you can increase the percentage after you´re 100% dead. That is all i see , so this time i plead to Cara , please sister, becouse of the aimlessness of the dialogue and the concomitant result refrain from beeing part of it.

Bro Nur , Time and again,you keep making strong and loaded statements without producing the necessary and supporting proofs , I could imagine whats driving you but unfortunately find it too dogmatic to be hurboured by a cincere and rational person . Your saddistic claim that "the life of an Agnostic/Atheistic person is an empty life" ,and our demand of you to account for that vacuous claim has led you to calling for a grandstanding, in where you make even more absurd claims. Nur, resorting to grandstandings where you dictate the the subject matter maybe your dream of sort, but that you misrepresent your ( to be ) opponent in a purely pontificating manner harmed your already weak stance. Cara is ( from what i could tell) an honest person that endeavors cincere skepticism and critical careful thinking, unlike you who seems to be a decent,highly spritual but somewhat slightly self-righteous . If what you´ve just penned is or supposed to be a proof account or part of solid proofs of what your extraordinary belifs about Allah are based on ,you´ll have more of Muslims who disagree with you than Cara. please and i plead here, re-consider what Castro warns you for and let us stop right there. i see a diffrence in class. and i hate to see the beleif in Allah defended by not the best it has to offer. Where is my Graad Bashi when you need him, maybe he is the most probable to make you realize what Castro is talking about.

Nur , We seem to have a brilliant example of Rillion's Law in action: "The amount of knowledge a person has about a particular subject is inversely proportional to his or her tendency to make universal, authoritative statements about it." . more of it, later

Good Xiin , that was a great maneuvering of sort, under a wild fireworks display if you like, but a neither rigorous nor remotely cogent , a total failure if i may say so , right infront of me it fell flat. Good Xiin, you´ve emotionally ( deliberately ? ) embellished and benignly connoted equity when you presented it as a divinely exercise when judging human beeings, and the divinely yardstick is soley based on the individual performance in piety,. It´s stunning how you immediately turn and throw that wonderful equity away to first point at a divinely attributed characteristics ( physical difference between Men and Women)) and assaign them to different (social) resposibilities and trivial tasks just to simply highlight inequality among the sexs , All this to conclude that Men and Women are not equal? that they differ? Good Xiin, aren´t you judging women for beeing diffrent, weird enough a difference that is not self-inflicted , but according to you divinely. highlighting and recognizing that difference you take women to court in the name of ' realistic approach ' and dismiss gender equality as it were becouse of slight physical difference , trivial social tasks and naturally relative responsibilties to promote Men as naturally superior sex. I´m saddened good Xiin, equality in gender as it were is an intrinsic human value. Good Xiin, Equity implies beeing fair and impartial between two different (things) be it positions, ideas , sexs, etc etc , So, you see good ( sexist ) Xiin, that manly man argument as it were never took off the ground , i ´d to lift it up a lil bit to just smash it for good.