Good cincere questions there CG. Despite the surrouding reality of Islam ( the evolved one, the old one and the yet to come ones ) beeing really imported to the Somalis. Sheikh Nur's hint of heavenly Islam and Mecca barely as a spot undermines the real identity of Islam to be imported in the first place, a Religion that in turn imported alot from Christianity and Judaism ,blended with the Arabic Badouin culture to tease a sneazing of a delicious theological Muffin in Arabic, targetting the arabic culture of 7th Century at first hand. If we hold that as it is , then that Islam really is RE-imported will have a wider perspective, seen in that light that is. That the new Somali 'Wadads' claiming to have gone back to the real pure Islam, "reconstructing the original message" as Sheikh Nur puts it and Cambarro agrees with , is a missleading righteousness at best and a futile attempt at beeing a better Importer to be exact. I've always wondered the chances of the early Somali Pagans to import from the sources of the sources, namely Judaism .

What is a Jin? a Ghost?

A Child nursery career, a Day-care center cheif to be exact is the advice i( sister JB ) can give to sister Hiba, thus agree with sister NGONGE.

Sheikn Nor-ow, LoZ might been right about the wasted space, after all, even you coulden't keep defining the variables as it were. Secularism is a smoke screen for Atheism. ooops, was that a defination ? There, you should been a little more explicit according to nothing less than the Webster. Atheism comes in many flavors, denial of Allahs exisitence, denial of his commandments, denial of following of his commandments, Now, that is beeing too un-ethical, to be frank un-pragmatic at all. How can one deny or be in denial of something YOU could not cogently present.? In your mind-set Sheikh Nur-ow, for some unknown reason, a Deity wants to communicate Humnity and wants to make it's presence known , yet it needs your help in ways and means to just realise that? To wrap this Topic, i think it stands to reason that a person who belives in a specefic religion that utterly dismisses all other religions and Gods is in no position to argue that (s)he is beeing sidelined for the coexistance of all our conflicting belifs of our World.

Originally posted by Zafir: ^Are you disappointed? Khayr disappointed in the Ulema? he's not only disappointed, he's furious. How could they let him down? , he belived in their JUST judgements all his life, but somehow today, the un-pragmaticalness of the idea of demanding a raped girl/woman victim to produce four male witnesses to her plight , sneaked in the back of his mind. Now , whether to blame the Ulema's or the scripts they been applying is a totally diffrent ball game . I personally wonder if a Pakistani guy ever got convicted for Rape, who could produce 4 sprectators to one's plihgt? EDIT :: Where in the world is one supposed to find four totally indifferent human beeings preferably four males, who neither participate in an act of Rape that takes place infront of their eyes nor hinder it.? A Mental institution? just a thought!!

^And who knew that the status qou would change untill an a notch better Nomad walked in ,axiologically motivated to guide us through the labyrinths of ethics ,as the futility of our attemps seem to insult his intelligence. this Deontologically superior Nomad, "Mr do the right thing" is morally obliged to shed a light on what he conceives to be a murky pit,a no go zone for kids like me & SB. And that he misses the point in SB's inductive reasoning and my affirmative respose deducted through cogent,but preceeding statement , is everything but a thought i entertain. SB , are you a philosophy Student? i'm not.

that big-boobed ex-borg is Nothing for your Johhny my dear (knowing what tthat girl is capable,its pretty daring , kina super heroing , woulden't you say sweet Uhura?) , and Ngonge is right about my Bed-room decoration, its just that i haven't told him that it was you who were with me queuing for a George Michael ticket in Gothenberg.

Unlike some here , i'm of the idea that we support our sisters who hit the book , no matter what they study and make a career of it. If it happens that a specefic Career attracts or seems to attarct most of the systers, i don't see anything wrong in that, unless i was too sexy for my shirt. in fact more Somali nurses are gonna be needed as we've a never ending civil war and an aging Diaspora, i think you all heard that when one gets very old only mother tongue will be available to him(her)in the short memory. Just imagine Ngonge old n senile, a Somali nurse preferablyy one who speaks and dresses Arabic would be in Demand.

Originally posted by Cambarro: In order to have a belief, it neednt be coupled with rituals. Atheist secularists do worship their desire and nafs. They believe (yes believe) that they only hold logical reason and rationality (whilst religious folks believe that they solely have the truth..see we aint so different after all). That is their hogaamiye. Make no mistake. This secular person will even start to tell others that their religion and sacred Way is wrong because this materialistic man has completely been blinded by his own ego. Cambarro, abayo , maybe u've missed it but i asked you to support your claims so we skip having a discussion where " that is what i think, i.e my stance" suffices. I knew the Author was intentionally beeing dishonest, intellectually that is , and i see certain un-willingness to seriously,cincerely engage the subject matter from your part. I don't understand that term 'Nafs' , but my Desire is everything but a Deity, i don't worship my desire, i don't whatissoever turn towards my Desire in prayers and i don't definitely belive my Desire created me, you or the universe. To conclude ,i won't come off track , in fact i'll go back to one of your earlier inputs, an input that i think underlines this whole thread. Originally posted by Cambarro: Nowadays being secular is validated and given rewards. I mean in a work situation say to your work mates you are going to the pub later and everyone will join you, say you are going for prayers and you will get some odd looks. The reason people give you the odd look when you're going for prayers could simply be that they know ,in your prayers, you're going to talk to yourself in solitary wish just about anything from a Deity you coulden't possibly ,possitively know and share the knowledge of it's existance. Originally posted by Cambarro: It would be an ideal if we were all free of prejudice and agreed that no worldview has a monopoly on truth and reason, but we know better Firstly, one should speak for him(her)self as it were , secondly, i don't think practicing Islamic religion and having faith in the existance of an Allah conveys just that stance.

Originally posted by Oday_Shirwac: I AM AN ALIEN Evidence is piling up for that !!

Originally posted by Socod_badne: But you can't falsify this assertion, therefore Atheism is irrational. You're right SB, i can't falsify it.

Very weird points Cambarro , but before we sift through the concepts you blend , let us agree on the Author's oppening notion, namely that Religion is or used to be where the premier threat to tolerance and coexistence comes from. And i'll stay forthright enough to argue that it still is the ONLY threat to tolerance and coexistence. To strengthen that notion ,i'd say, religious people don't only Jostle to claim having monopoly on the one and only right path to their version of heaven by beliving in the one and only true God (allah), but they're busy pouring all other human beeings, religious and non-religious alike in their version of hell. Sister Cara has nicely wrapped it for you there , Every religion ends up in the hell version of all other religions. That only few if any religions show respect and willigness to co-exist peacefully with other belif systems is a fact you have to deal with, every friday you pray for the destruction of the non-Moslims wishing them all the bad things one can think of,Judaism destroys You after friday prayers preparing itself for the Sabath ,Christianity repeats same scenario preparing itself for the sunday mass, The Hindu laughs at you all, on his way to take a devine dip in that holy river, etc etc ,that, dear Cambarro is a Fact . In reality , religious people do exhaust their Gods with prayers, prayers that are not answered for a reason or another , i'll let you explain to us weather your God can't answer your prayers becouse (s)he is not really there or weather something is wrong with your prayers. and please support your claims rather than simply insisting that those who don’t agree with you are bigots. Secularism is a movement that serves to differentiate the modern times from the Middle Ages,To claim that Secularism is a belif i.e a religion is patently missleading, religion (always) worships a Deity, it has rituals , religion turns to supernatural powers for help , Secularism lacks all those. it was funny though to see for once the people of faith acting as faithless. An Atheist is a person who doesen't beleive in the existance of a God or Gods as defined by the people of faith, nothing more nothing less. but maybe you were under the impression of everybody beliving in a God-like beeing . Originally posted by Khayr: Religion is a living thing that needs its own territory and to claim its superiority over other things. That is part and parcel of the wisdom of God and his creation; to have multiple competing views but are also complimentary and hierarchic. Atheer Khayr, just multiply yourself , put on a Jew Hat or a Christian rope or why not wear a an Indian sari and tell us can you guys be complementry in Allah's hierarchic.? With a belif in such a stance you're more or less demanding to be superior to all others and you've your God to thank that for.

It'd been tempting to sit beside Caano Geel and wait for an intellectually tickling inputs from Mr North ,MMA and Cambarro , but if that is not forthcoming( hoping that is not the case), i'd like to widen the prospects so they know what ground to cover. MMA and Cambarro's coupling of Atheism and Secularism leave much to be desired in contrast to the simple fact that many religious people are Secularists and absoloutly not Atheists and ofcourse it goes without saying that some Atheists are militant and not Secularists . As for the Author and the point , I knew that few religious people labor under the mistaken notion that things happen without a reason , and correct as they may be in their own minds, the fruits of natural science based on fatcs through sound reason, based on reality and actuality speak against them. what i diden't know however was that beeing intellectually dishonest was a religiously justifieable act, becouse the Author seems to be under the impression that his REASON of penning down these unsubstantiated lines against Rationality and Science is not a Reason but a devine revelation of sort, but it soley stands to reason that even (s)he is unsuccessfully trying to reason that Rationality and Science are Lame therefore Secularism is another Lame, dogmatic religion.

Many happy returns of the day my tiny tot. And let us hope that Cara is wrong about you and your adventures, she better be !!

Castro, Caano Geel, Cara , Bashi, Samurai Jack , MUHAMMED, WOL, you're beeing so missed here !!

Seeker , thanks for the cincere answer , i appreciated it, and it shoulden't bother me that you put more logical thoughts into the way people keep predicting it to happen than you do in accepting that it will happen. That you caught 22 should be more than enough. Naden, Now i know why many Muslims abuse the term 'JIHAD', i diden't know that in an Islamic State a Jihad booty is Tax deductable.

Atheer Kahyr, Proving the theorems as it were, oh,the secret sign has been revealed,the secret message has been decoded.worse, the end is near, catastrophy, earthquakes, wars , femines and what not are your proofs , yet to backpeddle from each and every claim has become slightly lesser than a habbit,so far an evolving interpretation of the otherwise solid proofs regarding the destiny of humanity is all you seem to afford. historical events are nothing but symbols of what has really taken place,as time progressesd, Mankind coulden't skip noticing the engulfing reality, that too many promised apocalypse did not arrive. You may continue to nurse the hope that it might appear someday,and God’s will comes to fruition, do get practically minded every now n then and try to develop newer interpretations of the mysterious predictions, since your sources could not possibly be mistaken, but must have meant something entirely different than you thought. Seeker,I did see where your questions stem from and i find them natural and rational, but if you'd noticed my point of contention i'd skip answering this very question. let me put it this way , Why ask these questions while swollowing the apocalypse ? i hope that makes sense !! Bougie ? maybe , presumptous ? A , AA

Ahhhhh , You're so capable of analyzing my points,ideas and hints with such a careful precision,but then why suspend that rational process when you approach your own beliefs about what might have been foretold. All of a sudden why everything becomes possible, even probable and the mere saying of the Imam or the Sheikh suffices ,"so i believe it" becomes a forte? and JB is accused of a priori bias against the supernatural when he is merely following the process that you abandoned while digesting what the Imam claims to know. Let me for once turn into a fortune-teller and foretell that you'll develop wings by Monday. A'aa, i can see you putting on that rational 'dirac' again.

^As always , not equipped with Fatzokaz and the latest devine carrot-stick methodology, Sheikh Nur-ow i think Fat-Boy diden't ask a question. what he did was disguise an answer that is looking for a question. So let me ask him this . Fat-boy , would you enjoy doing one of those named 'sins' knowing that you'll be forgiven? Maybe an irony for you is, i've been told that all those so called sins you're talking about are commited daily in Mecca during Haj-time.

" Allah is preparing us for Victory" might sound innocent, even intresting for the simple Muslim consumer, but for a thinking Muslim, (s)he ought dislike when someone infers having the knowledge of what Allah is preparing for her/him. History has it so , an interpretation of Allah's will is one of the leading causes of death.

It's sad that the stats dont show the percentage of the female beggars, female beggars are the only ones who can choose. :cool: seriously, don't they have charity organizations?

^ quite a contrast there !, actually his conclusion writes on the noses of those black arabs among us.

Originally posted by Che-Guevara: an iconoclast like you may lend a hand to these boys. You can even take JB with you. Atheer , maxa carabta geneysa?

Sacdiya, i'm sorry walalo, i diden't mean to upset you, ( actually i was hoping to be your freind , me n my "long" mouth ). i don't blame you for getting upset , i assure ya, Naden is gonna pay for that!!.

Putting the Pope's statement in perceptive , i'd like SOL to wrestle with the criticism against Islam in a higher level than the prevelant of somewhat low clibre and sometimes sheer insults towards the persona of the Pope, anything beyond the elegant but reactionary facade ? Jostling everything (that is considered bad ) said about Islam by anybody (considered not a Muslim) in the readily available category of "bad things said about Islam by bad people" is way too lazy and utmost defaince machanism of sort, actually the one and only available for the lay and semi- laymen, but for the Muslim with the solid theological pillars, this constantly recurring claim from Christianity, namely ,the line of thought that sees Islam as an adultred version of Christianity, goes far deeper than so . it 'almost' poses an identity question. Challenging Islam theologically the Pope seems to be demostrating that Muhammed(pbuh) borrowed almost every theological pillar of Islam from Christianity except the adultred ones, thus distances himself and his christianity for that matter from the vioilence that is ( allegedly) associated with Islam. and coupling that with the rational conclusion that , ""Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul" . Maybe just be it'd intresting to see Nur or Xiin splitting semantic hairs, " Jihad", "holy War" with the Pope, instead shrugging the trade-offs .