Sheikh Nur, Since the thread has already turned into Islamic FAQ ,i'd like to ask you if building a Mosque in Second life ( virtual life , http://secondlife.com/) can be considered as good deed as building a real Mosque in my neighbourhood, [highlight]given that more people actually do virtually worship Allah in the 'Second life' Mosque[/highlight] ?

Originally posted by Elysian: However, coming back to my question... lol JB , hey I'm the irrational person here remember, and I've made so far no attempts to rationalise the conflict between faith vs free will. Elysian, walalo, you're not necessarily the irrational one of us , and i absolutely see no conflict between faith and free will, One can both have the free will to have faith or the free will to not have faith. Originally posted by Elysian: I might be wrong, so pls correct me, but if I try to follow your logics, it means that who we are, our thoughts and actions are all derived from the chemical reactions in our brain... right, Wait a jiffy abayo , the answer to that 'probably to be' sarcastic question is a BIG No, what we think is not the product of mere chemical reactions in our brains,it is the product of our thoughts. chemical reactions are what take place during our thought processing,we decide what we want to think about,we don't decide what chemical reactions that will take place in our brains, to realize that, just hold on a second , stop reading this and think about JB's hair color, see? voila,you just did think and inso doing of course caused a chemical reaction in your brain. If you meant to say that our thoughts and actions are all derived merely from the chemical reactions in our brains, hence, they,per se lack genuine meaning , so is your thought that there is a God that answeres your prayers, or even more concretely , so is your very thought that this is the case. Originally posted by Elysian: and hence we are the product of the natural laws governing everything...right? So in all of this, where does our free will play a role? What we're is generally termed as Human beeings, and again unlike you i'd sit at the fence till i could cincerly and certainly tilt, instead of concluding as you did and call myself a product of the natural laws that govern everything. there is no knowledge known to mankind that says we're the product of those natural laws, the humble knowledge we've tells us that we're ruled by those natural laws. If i may, (that is if you don't mind letting me) do the following of my own logic, we exercise free will imminently on daily bases, we're faced monemnt by moment situations where we must exercise our free will, some situations are so recurring that we call them routines, a good example would be your free will to answer or not answer this very post of mine. Originally posted by Elysian: The only conclusion I can draw from this is that there is no such thing as free will... right? So when we pray to God, it's not that we have any choice but thats the shape of our synaptic network... blame evolution! I don't know what to make out of the above, again , some fence-sitting would of have been of great help, instead of this patently enforced conclusion of the inconclusive nature. That we've a free will of own is unquestionable , but questioning how free is our will would make alot of sense, me thinks. Perhaps the whole idea of wondering my stance and wrapping it regardingly is slightly tedious, maybe we'd do ourselves a favor if we discussed the subject matter , namely Prayers and related matters, thus , atleast we'd skip some wild assumptions and make unnecessary loss of space.

that appeals to my economist side... what an stingy legend, God is probably mad at you for exhausting him in your endless prayers for more of the good things in life. The Constrast is between Predestination and free will , not Predestination and God's omnisciency. Look at this circle: A: God is Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just. B: Everything that happens in Legend lifetime is predestined. C: Legend makes prayers to God asking for the change of an unfavoring Status Qou . D: (D-A:) God answers Legend's prayers, (D-B:) God doesen't answer Legend's prayers. Scenario D-A: Legend gets happy , thanks his God for intervening the Status Qou, Now what is the role of the predestination concept here? I: The whole thing happened becouse it was predestined so , including Legend's free will to make the prayers and God's readjustement of the Status Qou. II: God decided to answer the prayers of a worshipping creature, namely Legend, becouse of Legend's prayers, has Legend not made the prayers , God woulden't bother.hence legend had the free will to make or not to make prayers. Senario (D-B): Legend gets sad, yet still thanks his God for not intervening the Status Qou, again what is the role of the concept of predestination here? I: The whole thing happened becouse it was predestined so , including Legend's free will to make the prayers and God's refusal to intervene the Status Qou. II: God decided for a reason or another not to answer the prayers of a worshipping creature, namely Legend, has Legend not made the prayers , God woulden't bother refusing to answer.hence legend having the free will to make or not to make prayers. ps.. if people accept God's omnisciency, why do they need to make prayers?

Touche` , At last i met my Legend, you're forgiven for not reading the whole thread, just imagine yourself praying, asking God to interfer and change the status qou to your favor, voila, there you are caught red-handed attempting to denude the concept of predestination. On this thread, we're not denying God's existence ( JB has somehow mellowed ), we were discussing Prayers, and inso doing collided with predestination and free-will, all that and a belief in an Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God.

Elysian, I do not believe, i know that during my thought process chemical and physical activities take place in my brain, it's a fact , regardless there beeing a higher Deity or not. If and that is a huge IF, you're of the idea that those chemophysical activities that take place during our thought process are predestined so, still it woulden't help much a Deity that punishes human beeings for sinning, would it?

Elysian, I'm sorry about the repetitiveness in my post , i'd to highlight specefic attributes of God(Allah) as i was accused of lacking knowledge of such attributes earlier in the discussion. As for the complexity of the world and coming to logical conclusions, you're not alone to not have all your conclusions based on logical thinking and reasonable stances, unlike you i do the only rationally justifiable thing to do , namly fence-sitting, instead of conceeding to the popular beliefs that doesen't hold water in your rationale,just to hold on to an old tradition or appease the casually religious rabbles. Khayr Though i like your attempt to couple the "releatively free" will and God's sometimes detrimental predestination ,you leave much to be desired and you almost redefined the terms. If Allah predestined so North will intentionally miss Apr 20th Friday prayers, due to beeing Omniscient, then Whatever North does or However North tries the result will be North missing that Friday prayers becouse Allah predestined it so. North can then take his " relatively free " will and tack it somewhere as he has no choice but to miss the Friday Prayers. What a will what a freedom ? You tried very hard to say whatever North does is God's will and whatever God predestined will be North's will. In your metaphor, the liquid has no choice but head the jug, the liquid is directed towards the Jug and prohibited to go all other directions. where is the choice in that?

Originally posted by Violet: And you expect people to take you seriously? All you ever seem to talk about is Puntland..What next, you'll accuse Puntlanders of being behind 9/11?! :confused: Let's say Fanisha 'caqaar' bey cuntaa, what does Violet eat? gadaal bey ka sii deyneysa. So much for civility and " anagu hablaha ma cayno" mantra.

Originally posted by Northerner: If I intentionally want to miss a prayer today I know I would commit a sin and blame myself but also know it was written for me to commit that sin (preordained). This,to say the least, is confusing. How can an event that is already preordained by God be under your sphere of influence (free-will) ? , God can either preordain events in a specefic way and you'll have no influence (free will of your own), or let your free will and intentions influence an event,and thus be accountable for your actions. As for blaming yourself becouse you intentionally missed a Prayer, you may want to present yourself as humble and meak infront of the almighty , but the child voice in you that says, "it was preordained, so i'd no choice" is load and clear.

Originally posted by Naden: There is an internal working to our world, biological and physical, that is both within and outside of our control as humans. It seems to work despite the religious leanings of a group or the devout practices of an individual. That is worth noting indeed !!

Another? who is the 'other'?

North Mc Hammer's " you can't touch this" is a classic. Back to the toipc, There is an unforgiveable contradiction in the concepts of Prayers, fate, Predestination and the belief in a concerned, Omniscient and Omnipotent God , who is always around and constantly influences the subsequent fate of the believers. A God that is Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just, who detailedly predestines every Person's accomplishment in life presumeably has the knowledge of the sum result of that Person's accomplishment in life. Given that, That Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God made Hell and Heaven for the purpose of punishing the sinners and rewarding the good doers entails that God knows by way of predestining the actions who is going where. Now , for an Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God who already predestined the course of any event we may encounter , there is little if any reason to intervene the course of events again, hence answer prayers or punish sinners, unless either the Predestination of events was never made ( people are left in their devices) or that Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God for a reason or another decides the predestination of events he made earlier was somehow wrong, which contradics God beeing Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just in the first place. And if that Omniscient, Ompnipotent and morally just God predestined any event that i may encounter and never intervenes again, then Praying is meaningless somaha? as God never interneves again since he already predestined it ,and it all hangs on my free will, in another words it is upto me to either thank God for say giving me Cancer or silently think his predestination 'sucks'. Good Xiin, Without you holding that semi-saddistic stick, would you mind picking that devine carrot first and feed these hungery wolfs, untamed as they may seem , still nothing beats a well cooked crispy carrot.

DhucDhuc, [ much better than Cambarro],nice to have your two cents here. When you say Before attempting to tackle this, it is necessary to understand the etiquette of Dua. For instance how can one limit Allah's ability in providing for everyone when He is the One created all of it? You're slightly getting the wrong end of it, it is not about the limit of Allah's ability to deliver , it is about the limit of the number of parking places near the Mosque or the limit of the number of people whom we fall in love with etc etc. No question God almighty can increase the number of the parking places or make us meat the doppelgangers of those we love , but how often does that happen? btw, you diden't come across like a preacher!

Khayr, We're so used to seeing you throw in that towel and yell " MOREAL RELATIVISM " in almost every topic, but this one time ,you were unusually quick with that favorite line of yours,even for your standard, woulden't you say ? Khayr , let me for once try what SB gave up on , namely to bang a wit in your head by asking you to reflect on your prayers probability to be answered or ignored, rejected, left unanswered [ pick your word ]. and how answering your prayers conveys God's intervention of the course of events that would otherwise take place without you making the prayers. North, First: A believer will usually say ‘it was the will of Allah’ and move on. He/she may get something better later on. The loser in the FA Cup final may win the Champions League the year after. The loser in a race to a ladies heart may find someone better later on etc. It’s a test of one’s belief (something you wouldn’t understand). [Placing "or may not " behind every "may" in your post would have been closer to the Reality repectively the Truth, woulden't you say?. ] second: For a believer, he/she will believe that it was the will of Allah. No one knows what is in store for them. You take the rough with the smooth but you keep believing and praying. The rich man will pray just like the poor man. The connection with Allah is a fundamental in Islam. First a believer says, then a believer believes "that it was the will of allah", A believer might as well stop pretending to know what it is or might be , somaha? And as for the self-worship, i thought i delivered when i told you that self-worshipping is a contradiction in terms, but i don't mind delivering again. Originally posted by Northerner: The human error or intention is not independent from Allah’s will. As you are well aware Muslims believe all goings on in the heavens and the earth happen with Allah’s will as he intended and exact. If that is the case,the elevator is falling with his will, so why bother pray?, why ask God to change this event he knowingly/willingly set on course? areen't the believers showing a bit of mistrust towards God's judgement? Originally posted by Northerner: A written course is what we are in the start/middle of. We are merely going through a life long test. Our success or failure is already known to the all mighty. Our actions/deeds/sins are recorded. The balance sheet will be checked sooner or later. that is one of a confusing statement to make about God's intention, what is the meaning of making a test whose result you already know? Originally posted by Northerner: Therefore the course is written and people are left to their devices to succeed or fail in that course. Hold it right there , no more confusion atheer, what happened to the will of Allah? people are not left alone to their devices for a second, people either fail or succeed with Allah's will. somaha?

Originally posted by Northerner: JB A believer will usually say ‘it was the will of Allah’ and move on. He/she may get something better later on. The loser in the FA Cup final may win the Champions League the year after. The loser in a race to a ladies heart may find someone better later on etc. It’s a test of one’s belief (something you wouldn’t understand). North, What are you trying to say here? ,that if two people pray to win a specific person's heart, one of them's prayers will be answered and the deprived or the 'loser' will be somehow compensated later ?, its a win win situation?

Paragon If i think man is naturally dispositioned? No, dispositioned compared to who?, who is naturally better equipped than man?, i believe we're up on that chain of food for good reason. If i think man is equipped with an urge to believe in a higher and better beeing to express his reverence? Maybe, but then insofar as nothing more than a wishful thinking, and it hasen't been solly about expressing a reverence, but in many cases asking for a direct intervention in behalf of one. Originally posted by Paragon: JB, lol. If God can answer one's prayer then I don't see why another human should suffer for one's blessing. Look at it this way, don't think of it as zero-sum theorists think, where one's gain is another's loss. Oh no. If, say, I pray for diary cow (because I have four daughters to feed) and God giveth me a cow, don't you think the cow is one of his creations? You see the point here? Instead of depriving another, He (that is God) can create another cow in a short-while. Thus, my blessing may remains a blessing . The other chap can keep his cow too, granted I wait alittle longer! Very intresting point of view there, but the situations i'm talking about are such that zero-sum theory is inevitable. Let's say you're a Man-Utined player and Xiin is a Chelsea player, its a FA cup final, just before the first whistle, you turn your face up positioning your hands as if you were receiving something from up and start mumbling your Prayers, while Xiin is exactly doing the Same, both of you innocently pray for your team's success. Now , unless that match ends on a draw, one of your prayes has to be denied or answered, woulden't you agree? Another good example is that Both you and Ngonge this time fall in love with Rahima, as faithful as you both are you guys make prayers that she chooses you over not only NGONGE but all men on the earth, so does Ngonge too, now to answer you prayers would mean depriving Ngonge all that Rahima has to offer,and unlike your diary cow, God creating another Rahima to answer both prayers positively is not an option somaha? ( he's into VAL according to Ibtisam , but that is another ball game) A better example is Naden's elevator, it better illustrates the probability of God's intervention or a lack therof. If i rephrased my question as " how ultruistic is your prayers?", still i'd deal with prayers beeing personal hence ego, and nothing more than gesture of good-will concering others. Elysian, Thanks for translating the whole thing abayo, i was so tied by time yesterday. Good Xiin, Blessed are you my friend and paradise will hopefully be your place, rizq waasac ah ?hmmm, i could of imagine some people beeing more needy than you're, gabar raaliya ah ? can you imagine anyone who could be more deserving than you? ( look at me ). All the abouve is yours, the point was, there are situations where answering one's prayers mean depriving others, hence the example of the parking place near the mosque. Xiin-ow, by answering one or all your prayers God has to intervene the course of events that were favoring others somaha?.

North, this is a sum up of it. Originally posted by Elysian: JB, jag vill inte förstöra ditt intressanta inlägg med hårklyveri, eftersom min intention inte var att ens försöka besvara din fråga. En diskussion om bönens betydelse kommer onekligen leda till existentiella frågor osv…. vill inte ge mig in i den diskussionen. Din fråga var dock “How egoistic is your Prayers”. Även om altruistiska handlingar ter sig osjälviska är de ändå ursprungna ur egoism, och därav min fråga, vilka icke-egoistiska böner finns det? Men eftersom det inte var den frågan du förväntade dig, klassas det självklart som ”inget vettigt inlägg” – bra undanmanövrering JB, since i don't want ruin your intresting subject by splitting semantic hair with you, as my intention is not to even try and answer your Question. A discussion about PRAYERS and their meanings will undenieably lead to the existential question etc etc.. and i don't intend to partake in such a discussion. Your question was however( "how egoistic is your prayers"? ), Even if altruistic ations seem un-selfish , they're basically deduced from egoism, hence my question, what actions are not based on egoism?, but since my question was somehow un-expected to you, you'd rather class it as , " un-witty input",- nice dodging there. Now , its your turn to make it Arabic. Paragon, my blessing may remain a blessing, kulahaa, wanna walk away with the dairy cow? so un-selfish, i just have to come back to that later. Naden, Just , read and repeat that specefic verse X times and you're safe of Demons, very intresting view point , one might say. Just put me in that elevator and you can forget my prayers for you., i've more to say on this , later.

Elysian, Förstöra och förstöra, det är ju redan så gott som förstört, i och med att jag inte fick säga "Bruden", undra om Fröken , Gullet, Jäntan,Gumman eller t.o.m "abayo macaney" hade dugit?, ba driver merig. Du hade rätt, Jag ville inte diskutera Egoism vs Altruism,din fråga dock ifrågasätter Altruism , precis som du själv hävdar att det i grund av botten finns ju ingen ren altruistiska handling, vilket i och för sig är diskutabelt men ej av intresse för tillfället. Och du, vettig inlägg var det ju, men av ovan angivna orsak kan det har varit ..säg ovidkommande? Originally posted by Northerner: I would never do such a thing as its a major sin. But not knowing God's intentions is a good thing as one will pray for God's mercy in this life and the next. So what is going on your mind when you're sitting there, presumeably in rapture praying for almighty intervention of the status quo? Could it be so,the act of prayer itself provides the comfort as Naden hinted?

Legend, war bax, nacla ku tale , aniya arji Magol u qora?, i rather lick Val's smelly feet, ban ku idhi .

Originally posted by Northerner: ^^ma nin deen la, aya dad deenle oduceenkara? North,you've missed the point by miles there, Anybody wa docenkra, its just that anybody's prayers might not come true, somaha? Originally posted by Northerner: But how would you know about God's intentions/plans/interventions? I woulden't , unless a theist like you voluntarily claims to know , hence, tells me about it.

And i thought i resided in this hall of Shame.

And thus , the curtain went up for Roobleh. Welcome to SOL.

Elysian, Bruden, 'Altruistic' kallas de handlingar som är icke egoistiska eller ger direkt vinst till en själv, men min pöang är icke att framhäva Altruism utan att diskutera vad som kallas bön och hur hjälpsamt det är att be. Det var ju synd att du avstod ifrån en vettig inlägg, jag hade önskat annars, men, men. North, Khayr, Atherkey wuxu yiri, "nin faruran forida ma karo fii,na haba shegin", horta, Aan idin duceyo noh. Hi Naden, nice to see you again !! As usual , you pose intellectually tickling questions, If i concern myself with what motivates a person to pray, and how convinced people are that their God has responded to their prayers, i'd assert that the motivation is always a combiantion of belief and a dire need ,specially in difficult or hopeless situations where people wish a different and more favorable status qou. As for how convinced people are,it varies,in most cases though,specially in the Abrahamic theology, people show strong belief in a God that is concerned and always around to oversee and constantly influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation, by answering prayers, forgiving or punishing sins and in some extreme cases preforming miracles. Would a God that doesen't intervene and shape the fate of his creation be qualified for our prayers i wonder?

Soryy to have came across as the Man of the twists, but if you'd given it a minute's thought, you'd sure realize that praying to one's self is a contradiction in terms. That i think long and hard and specially at nights? eh ,i could of have kicked it home by highlighting that atleast one of us is doing the thinking , but then that is not the case , it is just that i get better things for my time, ENJOY.

One of the intresting aspects of Religion is PRAYERS, People do PRAY for a variety of things turning to their Gods, asking for good health ,good economy,etc etc . Technically PRAYERS are carried out as a direct communication between a Person(s) and a Diety,that person strictly belives that somehow S/He can communicate with a Diety and ask it to intervene the status quo in behalf of that person and make changes that turn the status quo more favorable to that person. Though all this is done under presumeably a good faith and intention,the childish egoisim in it glares at one right in the eyes,becouse there are situations where answering one's prayers mean depriving others who are equally as good as us or maybe even slighly better than us. On a friday efternoon ,Alle-Ubaahne makes a PRAYER that God saves him a parking place near the Mosque( wonder how many of us do so) so he skips walking blocks to the Friday prayers. Sadly, this kind of Theism is very popular, How egoistic is your Prayers?

Zafir, you're not alone bro, It striked me as more tormented than a filthy post, and it reveals how contrived is PI's issue of morality, It turned out to be nothing but a deep hostility towards a person of different stance. Sadly , the "holy hate" flourishes in less sophisticated minds.