** Johnny jumps all over the place , collecting kiss bubbles. while singing Pet shop boys.. Western girls , Eastern Boys ..... ** Though its early for towels be they White or Red, an incohesive theme seems to be surfacing through the discourse, disregarding what generally language-capacity imposes, there seem to be desperate attempt of poisoning the well. however, a sign usually witnessed at the beginning of one's abandonment of previously held position. Since I can not whatsoever cede legitimacy to the shallow themes of GG where neither the persona nor the point of views get granted to be on their own right,Nor will i for now spend a breath on Norf's hedgehog defence-mechanism in that helpless corner of Faith,He has to wait sister The_Siren as she is the sole one with the kind of honesty in demand under such debates. Therefore I will concentrate upon and follow through our Near-Death-Experienc e crux and your use of it as an evidence of an acceptable reason to allow some 'powers' ( read Gods ) at work,hence, a reasonable hint of the existence of a particular God. And since you've saliently accounted for the undercurrent jab there is no reason whatsoever to continue hanging in there, so let me further agree with you regarding Brother Humble aka Paragon's unreserved honesty displayed in this and many other threads over this Forum being something we both so deeply enjoy and hope to take after. Now,As you might already know Near Death Experiences ( NDEs ) almost always occur as a result of decreased blood flow to the brain and/or lack of oxygen,usually from shock induced either from severe infection (septic shock), from myocardial ischemia (cardiogenic shock), cardiac arrest,or the effects of anesthesia. Apparently, NDEs are integrally linked to physical and not spiritual—realities. One common misconception regarding NDEs which seems to be the case here is that when we have one, namely NDE, we literally die and are then restored to life, something which is simply not possible. Some people mistakenly believe that when our heart has stopped, we are dead. Contrarily, the heart is merely a pump that sends oxygenated blood to the rest of the body. It is not until approximately six minutes after a cell has been deprived of its normal oxygen supply that it truly dies. Not until the cells in a person’s brain have died are we truly deceased, a death from which no living organism has ever returned. Though NDEs are not something that is thoroughly studied it is difficult to make a plausible connection to a particular Deity, just because: 1: NDEs happen. 2: NDEs can make one experience what a particular religion promises in an after-life. And there you've my bone of contention.

I must say , i've been called many things but A tongue twister maybe the most fitting one so far . Having given you that, let me fall back to the stream of our little discourse with a bit of clarification holding the highlighter , as it were. Firstly it must be said your presence wakens a badly needed passion for the thread and i'm entitled to stay optimistic that you'll draw the last straw unlike our Norf, with dignified humbleness, as that is how it ideally should be. Starting to deal with a glaring misconception in your last post regarding Beliefs warrants a specific clarification. Your position is that lacking belief in Gods is in itself a faith, hence another Belief, and i stated firmly that it is not Faith , but a rationally justified Belief just like the belief of the sun not rising from the West, while it is the Belief in the existence of a particular God or the Belief in the sun rising from the West that is based on pure Faith, hence not rationally justified. Though its regretablly true that you fell in the cavity of the twisted logic of 'it's the possitive claimer that is to be disproved and not the other way around' , you still maintain a wider sense of generousity towards a differing stance, which can only be met by even more generous sense of belonging together under the Humanity umbrella. It's intellectual dishonesty to not demand the possitive claimer to account for his/her claim, as that is like letting me claim that i Jonathan Bravo am an Angel and it's your duty to prove the contrary. Conclussively , the validity, proveability, disproveabilty of the evolutionary theory or any other scientific theory is and can not be used for the existence of a Deity and its creation of the universe. namely, that axtra ordinary claim needs extra ordinary evidence. That about That. I'll have to come back to your apologetic stance coupled with the under current jab and near death experience as your evidence of ( a reason ) to allow some 'powers' ( read Gods ) at work. As Time is not what i have plenty of today. Norf. ama hit you next .. nabad ku afaur cawa..

^How come i missed this? I've yet to see a Somali married to an Indian.

The down-side of having 'timo Jareer' ? I suggest you shave your head.

LG, Abti , I'm gonna bring Norf's dead out and take them to the heathen's pit, in a minute, but let me first share a serious "Fika" with the steaming up Siren. Very interesting input The_Siren, Despite what in my circles is referred to as the 'bending over backwards', i can accept the overall call for strict Agnosticism, but take however issue with: 1: The claim that lack of Belief is 'some sort of' Belief. 2:The apologetic attempt to strengthen Faith in the existence of a Deity under the notion of Human incapability of grasping, understanding that particular Deity and variety of other things in it's environment. Firstly i'd like to share with Sister The_Siren that Atheism in general is basically a lack of Belief in Gods, and most theists have difficulties understanding that, despite they themselves being practically Agnostic/Atheistic towards other religion's versions of Gods. Having cleared that, let me flourish the gist of my contention towards the notion of 'lack of belief' being in itself a 'Belief'. If I present you the name of the Ghost I am married to, namely, 'Mahboubawawa', there are likely three possibilities: 1: you be rationally convinced and accept my claim of actually being married to a Ghost. 2:you rationally stay unconvinced( or maybe feel intellectually insulted ) and after challenging my claim rationally conclude that you can't share my Belief in my marriage to a Ghost, hence, lack of Belief in that. 3: you rationally stay unconvinced( or maybe feel intellectually insulted ), but leave the possibility of me really being married to a Ghost undecided. Consequently, the process of having/lacking Belief in my marriage to a Ghost,follows: A: A firm Belief in my marriage to a Ghost through incoherence and imagination. B: A lack of Belief in my marriage to a Ghost through rational Belief. C: A Firm undecided Belief in my marriage to a Ghost through inability to really KNOW. Now, the logical cut-rule here is, Only a rationally justified Beliefs are based on empirical evidence, therefore the lack of Belief in the marriage to Ghosts is rationally justified. Now, are Beliefs, be they rationally justified or superstitious equal?, i leave that for the reader to answer. As i have accounted for above, your claim of lacking Belief in Gods is truely a Belief , but it is a rationally justified Belief. Q.E.D Now regarding our sister's apologetic attempt regarding the existence of a Deity, one can only hope that it was consciously deliberate, as the alternative could only display emotional imprisonment and unforgivable rational deficiency. the concept 'God' is presented as an explanation. God is claimed to not only exist, God is claimed to want,know and be behind every natural action that takes place, Also god is the explanation. I find the attempt to wrap God's existence in Natural mystics and human inability to completely fathom nature way too apologetic in the search for an answer to the existence of a particular God, while Near Death experiences are awash in every culture, it's a cross-cultural phenomena, to hint that it represents a possibility for the existence of particular God can only beg the question. Near Death Experience must therefore constitute another inherent part of the human cognitive experience,as with all other cross-cultural,cross -religious behaviours. And lastly though with negligence let me tell sister The_Siren that Atheists are neither necessarily snobs nor angry lot, quite the contrary, You hardly see an Atheist suicide bombing others because others happen to think differently. That you relate being content in ones Belief to arguing with those who held a different Belief is not true. The urge to stand and account for one's Beliefs is human trait, and not something Atheists or agnostics has monopoly upon. The need to preach, as it were, is widely available among the theists, flipping the positions and accusing them of being not content in their Belief would be out of the question?! One last point regarding this recurring insinuation of Atheism being equal to another religion that is based on evolution instead of creationism as the other religions, must be once and for all burried. Atheism is not dependant on evolution, it's as old as Theism while the evolutionary theory is only 200 years old. Let me lastly quote one of my favorite English gentelmen, namely John Staurat Mill. “To question all things; never to turn away from any difficulty; to accept no doctrine either from ourselves or from other people without a rigid scrutiny by negative criticism; letting no fallacy or incoherence, or confusion of thought step by unperceived; above all, to insist upon having the meaning of a word clearly and precisely understood before using it, and the meaning of a proposition before assenting to it; these are the lessons we learn from ancient dialecticians.”

^Ngonge asked me to try and make a point of your initial rambling Laba xininyodow, what he didn't ask me however is to answer threats and empty once at that. To be frankly honest Mr twoBalls, You got it blatantly wrong, my problem is not Mohammad ibn Cabdulwahaab,and his teachings , that is for those who can differentiate his writings from any other Abdul-bla bla's writings. The point is Somalia is a country , and not religion (Islam), this is a distinction you Islamist-wanna beez need to sink in. The religion of Islam engulfs over a billion throughout many nations/countries, and Somalia is one tiny of those nations/countries. That al-shabab is a political failure is not something, 'they spread Mohmmad Abdulwahab's version of tawheed' or 'Ethiopia is our enemy' can plaster. That reactionary movement lacks real political visions and is purely hate-oriented, hence facing the failure. Next?!

Ok Garaad.

Ît's exactly there we differ NGONGE, namely it being an acceptable article. Mr two-balls served us with few axiomatic Shabab-ridden slogans devoid of plausible arguments. No matter how i turned and twisted it the following was what was thrown my direction: "While tombs are being demolished in some parts, locals are being taught the fundamentals of belief at the same time – thereby enabling them to practice pure Tawheed (Monotheism) and abandon worshipping saints and graves. The creed of Alwalaa wal Baraa has now firmly become instilled in majority of the people’s minds and they have, as a result, began to loathe the presence of the African forces." What is sad is what he refers to as 'the locals being taught ' is what i call terrorizing , tired it may be but it reflects what is taking place in those places where that group calls the shots. To me Mr twoballs subconciously displayed that it is unhealthy to support that group at this juncture in Somali politics,by hoping for the continuation of the change-ridden status qou. That that group is fading away is displayed at every corner of the Somali politics, so glorifying the moment is not something I take as an acceptable article. True that a killer IS a killer,and i don't give much for Faith, but as a person of Somali origin , intrested in the healthy existence of that Republic, Shabab are the worse bet at this point in time for the Republic of Somalis.

^ A cry for keeping the status quo ?. The winds of change are really marginalizing the terrorist group of al-shabab indeed. The only thing al-shabab taught the Somali people is to kill, mime and terrorize in the name of Islam.

Rayaale is my Atheero.

Such a luxury ! So your office is so isolated, others don't bother you? i hope you don't work for my atheero.

morning JB ! What is the Aura today?

^ Naxar , don't blow his cover dee ! Odagu intaa yar bu gabaad ka dhigan waad ogtee. Nrof, So the whole mantra of being deadly sanctimonious, 'Mutawa' per excellence, shrinks behind certain provability/disprova bility regading certain scientific theory. Oh, the irony !. Are there other scientific theories whose provability/disprova bility strengthens/weakens your sanctimony?, as you don't seem to be able to account for it scientifically.

^Ah...at last someone from my hood of the neighbour. Waraa , fiiri nooh, we're many here who're born and bred in Xamar ( this is for Ngonge )ma fahmino?, lakin born and bred wa badan yihin nooh, adi iyo ani,Serenity,LG,Xiin ,Juuje iyo Ibtisam( Ibtisam pretends to be from Burao, lakin ga ka sii) born and bred plus belong to aa nahay nooh, unlike , Libaax sankataabte, Castro, Nuune,Che´ etc etc .. ma fahmino? ciyaalka xaafada camaleeti nooh . psssssssssssssssyt, Farax brown is a bloody Sujui, ha ku sirmin.

^Adeer ha ii misin dee, ma ina adeerkey ayaa tahay? Beryahanba wax reer Mugadishu ah oo genius ah lama arage, Juujaa ugu dabeyay.

^And with this conclusion from Mr.Somalia, i concur with Abraar. Mr.Somalia is genius,and as all geniuses come from Puntland , he sure is from Eyl.

Cajiib... Waaba Abraar oo islaantii oo soman ka fakan weyday , Gay promotion ha lagu eedeyo.

^Of all the things to worry about Arac is devastated by the sound of 2015 abbreviations. Yarey , adiga shaqa ma haysato?

^If that is the case then your cut-rule is you're neither Abraar nor can you be his Gay-colleague. Why suspect him, and what for? mise waxban mis-garyey?

Waar waa bila sermon, ee waxad ku haysato Abraar noo sheeg. mise waxa uu ka hadlayo ayaa ku danqiyay?

Abraar = an agnostic in disguise? I just have to see where this ends.

I've a feeling that Somalis prefer Gay-friends to Lesbian friends, why?

Originally posted by Norfsky: You said it yourself here . Allow me to say just this one in Svenska. suck och bedrövelse ! It's something like, trials and tribulations!, shock and horror or a strong Oy Vey. Originally posted by Norfsky: Just get on with it. I would really like to debate with you without repeating myself a hundred times in the process. As I said, the floor is yours gents. Present what you will however you wish to present it with as many caveats as you please. Ahhh, How does one define 'sulking off' and 'political theism' again?! So much for civility and willingness to debate open-mindedly. What is the point of presenting the attempted proofs of a scientific theory to someone whose understanding of the scientific method can be summed up in the following: (1) Flabble glurk zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz ping! (2) No one has ever refuted (1). (3) Therefore, God exists.

" Future Somali government should recognize the need to take advantage of our regions' seperate and unique resources and thus set up a regulatory system that encourages and protects both investment and ownership rights. " An admireable vision indeed !!

^ I just hope one skips sharing one's veggs & fruits (sent from Mogadishu) with the locals as they were scarce in my old man's days there.