Keynan the Americans can defeat any army in the world on a battlefield.However they have been exposed in urban warfare.They celebrated when the Taliban simply discarded their clothes and went underground.They celebrated when the Iraqi army crumbled in Baghdad.Look at what is happening in those countries today.The Taliban are as strong as ever and the Americans are dropping like flies in Iraq.Am not comparing this to Somalia in any way.However it is easy for the Americans to invade countries, but the hard part comes in occupying countries and taking on lethal insurgencies as we have seen in Vietnam, The Afghan-Soviet war and know Iraq.How do you fight against a guy who straps himself withe explosives and takes 10 highly trained marines in the latest developed tank with him?

@Taliban, so what about those that do not vote or actually oppose the war?When you get on a train with explosives even in London, they will always be innoncent people and even Muslims.This is nothing to with Islam rather cowardice and murderous revenge to grab the headlines. When the Prophet saw was commanding an army of 10 000 men to Mecca, he suddenly stopped because he saw two puppies in the way thus he instructed to rows of his army to mind the puppies until the whole army passes. You know the Prophet instructed not to harm civilians, children, the elderly and even uproot trees.Look at the hadith of Ali when the enemy he was about kill spat at his then he stopped because he would have killed him out of anger and revenge.Compare to people who say that you can blow up trains in London just because people elecT the government, what about me your Muslim brother who uses to train everyday and elects no particular party?

Obviously you don't care if Amxaar flags are flyed over Somalia or how many are killed in the process.As long as your pseudo unity is achieved.We will live this issue aside. Secondly the I.C.U never caused the government to do anything.One cannot seriously believe the I.C.U would have attempted to overthrow the Somali government.Otherwise they would have been proven to be liars as they said they recognised the Somali government.The people who where lying where the t.f.g.They said there was no Ethiopian troops inside Somalia.Perhaps you think lying is acceptable in order to reach goals of "unity"?The initial war was between the Somali warlords and the I.C.U thus when the Warlords lost the battle.The Americans and Ethiopians started to use the T.F.G as an outlet against the I.C.U.Abdullahi Yusuf said himself that the American should negotiate and deal with the T.F.G.Know if you are pretending to us that the T.F.G where under threat thus where forced to use the Ethiopians.This is a complete and utter fallacy.The Americans said themselves "we will not allow any Islamic state within Somalia".Therefore it was they who orchestrated the Ethiopians and the warlords to prepare to attack the I.C.U.You can watch the video by Channel 4 about the documents and meetings which where held in Adiss by Frazer and Ethiopians allies.General Abizaid even visited Ethiopia after the I.C.U takeover.Clearly, somewhat understandly the Americans could not accept any Islamic regime in the world after September 11. You also mentioned about Somalis being oppressed.Let me ask you how comes the warlords(Qeybdiid and co) suddenly started to become allies of the government in Badiao? When they where the people who where blocking the government from taking power and also oppressing the people?What did you except the I.C.U to do, when the same warlords they defeated and thousands of Ethiopians where circling them.Did you except them to offer them tea or invite them for a party? Anyone who fights against the Somali warlords who where kidnapping Ulema is a true Somali in my opinion.Tell me what is so "wicked" about this? The people who where hindering "unity" in Somalia where the Somali Warlords and the Ethiopians who backed different factions against each other.Don't you think it makes a mockery of your claims when the same people who where obstructing unity(Ethiopia and Warlords), suddenly became wonderful unionists in order to drive out a few scary wadaads for the Americans? The unity of Imam Ahmad and the Sayid was not built on machiavellian style politics......

Somalis have always fought each other man to man- clan to clan, rightly or wrongly.However the greatest act of cowardice in the history of somalia, was the invasion of somalia by thousands of Ethiopians to root out as Captain Xalane says "clan cowards".This great act of cowardice led to the Ethiopian flag being raised over Muqdisho airport and Ethiopian soldiers relaxing on Kismayo beaches......Imagine if Imam Ahmad Gurey or the Somali King who was killed by an Ethiopian King, who later boasted in their chronicles that they had killed their "Somalis".Would see Somalia today?

Then why did the t.f.g call 20 000 xabashi troops to defeat meer "cowards"?Logically this means the t.f.g are even bigger cowards for calling another state plus America to defeat "cowards".

Originally posted by Taliban: quote:Originally posted by Abu_Geeljire: Somalis don't need the advice of "Dr Al Zawahiri".This the same guy that encouraged Somalis to use suicide attacks.......... You disapprove of suicide attacks? I disapprove of suicice of any kind.I also disapprove of Ayman Al Zawahiri's propoganda, which states western civilians are legitimate targets because they apparently support and elect the governments.Lastly I strongly disapprove of psuedo sheikhs(Bin Laden and Zawahiri) who have no real credibility as Mujahideen or Ulema.One only has to look at Algeria to see how dangerous these groups are.

The Western front, which on the surface appears more problematic, is in fact less complicated than the Eastern front, in which most of the events that make the headlines have been taking place recently. Lebanon's total dissolution into five provinces serves as a precendent for the entire Arab world including Egypt, Syria, Iraq and the Arabian peninsula and is already following that track. The dissolution of Syria and Iraq later on into ethnically or religiously unqiue areas such as in Lebanon, is Israel's primary target on the Eastern front in the long run, while the dissolution of the military power of those states serves as the primary short term target. Syria will fall apart, in accordance with its ethnic and religious structure, into several states such as in present day Lebanon, so that there will be a Shi'ite Alawi state along its coast, a Sunni state in the Aleppo area, another Sunni state in Damascus hostile to its northern neighbor, and the Druzes who will set up a state, maybe even in our Golan, and certainly in the Hauran and in northern Jordan. This state of affairs will be the guarantee for peace and security in the area in the long run, and that aim is already within our reach today.14 Iraq, rich in oil on the one hand and internally torn on the other, is guaranteed as a candidate for Israel's targets. Its dissolution is even more important for us than that of Syria. Iraq is stronger than Syria. In the short run it is Iraqi power which constitutes the greatest threat to Israel. An Iraqi-Iranian war will tear Iraq apart and cause its downfall at home even before it is able to organize a struggle on a wide front against us. Every kind of inter-Arab confrontation will assist us in the short run and will shorten the way to the more important aim of breaking up Iraq into denominations as in Syria and in Lebanon. In Iraq, a division into provinces along ethnic/religious lines as in Syria during Ottoman times is possible. So, three (or more) states will exist around the three major cities: Basra, Baghdad and Mosul, and Shi'ite areas in the south will separate from the Sunni and Kurdish north. It is possible that the present Iranian-Iraqi confrontation will deepen this polarization.15 A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties by Oded Yinon (with a foreword by, and translated by Israel Shahak) http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0005345.html

@Abdi 2005:Somalis don't need the advice of "Dr Al Zawahiri".This the same guy that encouraged Somalis to use suicide attacks.......... And i agree with Ahmad Gurey, the majority of Somalis are clanists.They only care about their clan, not Islam or Nationality.You can see this even on this "intellectual forum".What matter most is Puntland, Somaliland,Jubaland etc..... No resistance can win without the people.In Iraqi you have the Sunni stronghold, In Lebanon you have the southern Shia population and in Afghanistan they are supported by the Pashtun communities and the tribal support from the border(Pakistan). In Somalia you have a few kids that are aimlessly shooting mortars and even hitting civilians.Thus far they are not achieving anything and do not have any popular support. The Somali people are very tired of war, they don't particularly care about who rules them or who fights each other.A few Sheikhs hiding in the Jungle being carpet bombed by the Americans, will not help them.Whilst the manin leaders of the I.C.U lavish in grand hotels.Resistance requires knowledge, expertees, and most importantly the people.Somalis are allied to their QABIL, until this changes firing grenades inside Muqdisho will not change anything.Because the guy who throws the grenade will not be seen as a resistance or a liberation fighter,rather a kid from Qabil X throwing grenades................

The wadaads kept somalia on it's feet for the last 16 years.............. Somalis never elected any leader The warlords are the cousins and brothers of T.F.G..........

The question reminds of the "Are somalis genetically backward" thread. These questions are very open and somewhat offensive.Can Black people build properous societies? They have built prosperous societies in, Egypt, Sudan,Mali,Ethiopia and various other civilizations, even at the time Europe was lavishing in the dark ages.So, if they have built "prosperous societies" before why can't they do it know". This question can be asked of the Muslim World.But if we look at the Muslim World there are countries that are advancing economically eg. Malaysia, Dubaia etc.......Again if Muslims ruled half the globe and where the most prosperous society in the world, why can't they build Prosperous societies?Who would have ever thought the Jews would be one of the most dominant people in the world. Perhaps the question should be "Why aren't black people building prosperous societies"?Furthermore "Black" is a totally meaningless term.What black people are we referring to? Sri Lanka,Aboriginals, Blacks in Mexico, Arabised Blacks or American/British Blacks?All these have different socio-political and econmic histories/problems thus lumping them all into one category is quite misleading....Perhaps the author should have focused on problems unique to the African subcontinent.....Sure they have problems but they have built "prosperous societies".But we need to analyse these subgroups in their particular contexts. Rather than employing the colonial mentality of pretending all people with significant melanin share the unique problems.One cannot engage in any meaninful discussion, if you have people comparing the problems in Ethiopia with Haiti.......

I didn't bother read the article.Because the question of the thread is actually very ignorant."Black people" what ever that means have and are building Prosperous societies......... @Ngone are you suggesting that African culture is primitive and thus a hinderence to build any civilization?

Is this money put to good use, especially in Somalia?

Is Hassan Turki there?

I hope it is located in Somalia too.That way we can gurantee the possible rendition and secret flights of clerics continues..............

Maybe because it would turn him into a hero?While at the moment he is a relative nobody in somali politics?This why the American let him go, if they had killed him or detained for a lengthy period, they would have turned into an uneccesary hero.Besides some of the somali warlords have commited far worser crimes then him have been forgiven. Some of the people who have been "blindfolded" are innoncent people who have been bounty hunted either for having a large beard, belonging to a certain clan or being oromo.Of course anybody who has disagrees with these inhumane actions is a dowladiid right Naxar?

Frazer ba na waashay mesha mayaada xukuntaa?

Ali Dheere Jamac: A Somali Youth living in southern Somalia. I work 5 times a week in my dads local teashop in Muqdisho.Prior to this i used to attend a local mosque for quranic studies and enjoyed playing footbal with my teenage friends.I had dreams of someday moving abroad to playing for a professional footbal team like my favourite football player Ronaldiiniyo...... However my father said that i had become a grown man know and stressed the need to help the family out in the teashop.It seemed i was destined to follow in the footsteps of my two older brothers. I have never known any sort of peace in Somalia.In fact it was an everyday occurence to get robbed on my way home.During my time in Somalia I have witnessed the death of several local people, mostly killed by brutal warlords.Sometimes i would think that i would never see peace in my life... Alxamdulilah, thanks to the Islamic Courts Union the warlords where defeated and they restored a sense of normality to our lives. Many of my family where elated and overwhelmed that we had peace for the first time in years.However my father a well known local Reer Dheere elder was quite wary of the Islamic Courts,although he too was happy at the order they had created.Many other people where suspicious of the intentions of the Islamic Courts but they gave them the benefit of the doubt aswell. After several months under the Islamic Courts suddenly we and some others started to encounter some problems under their rule.Firstly,as my father pointed out many of their high ranking posts where given to Reer Bisad.My father and several other clan elders where very dissapointed at this stance.Because we felt as that we would be at the mercy at the hands of the Islamic Courts who where largely run by Reer Bisaad, our traditional enemies.My father recalled that Reer Bisaad had killed one of our uncles 36 years ago,in the famous battle of "Nafta Kasaar". When Sheikh Hassan Turki announced that they where willing to overtake Puntland,Somaliland and other Somali clan territories, it reaffirmed to me and my clan that the Islamic Courts where an alliance that simply wanted to overun all other Somali clans.The propoganda against the Islamic Courts took a surge in Muqdisho teashops when they shot unarmed prisoners in a hospital and also took over the city of Kismayo. Despite all of this i was still a firm believer in the Islamic Courts,perhaps my family and clan elders where being a little clanish? The final straw came when the Islamic Courts started to ban Khat in several of the areas they had controlled.Me and my family where especially affected by this as our income was reliant on the Khat and tea sales from our local Business.I was very saddened at this because the Islamic Courts did not inform us of this policy, nor did they give us the means to seek another alternative to porvide for our family.My father and other Khat sellers where know secretly hoping that the Islamic Courts where defeated in their upcoming war with the Ethiopians.Other complaints started to flood in from people who's Indian movie cinemas had been closed down.Many of my old Dhalinyaaro friends where know fed up at the rule of the "Surwalgaabs".To sum up many people started to see the Islamic Courts as just another force who had come to rule over us.In reality they where losing the suspicious Somali love and support they had gained from us........ Your sincerley Ali Dheere

So what are your conclusions, are you tempted to Join the sunni insurgency?

1.They lacked the love and the support of the people. 2.They clearly didn't put any real thought into their military endeavour 3.It is Allah who gives victory....... Inshallah i will elaborate more on this...........

Lord Levy, Cameron and Blair speak for them.

Maybe because some poor/ignorant people have been convinced(mostly by males) that these activities are sanctioned by Islam.Thus anyone who speaks out against these activities are branded as being against Islam.There are plenty of people are speaking out against these activities especially proud muslim women.These people are quietly going about their business unlike Ayan who's whole existence and media publicity is dependant on attacking Islam, in order to reap a little money and attention from the Neo-con/Zionist circles.......

It's only a political struggle for power and dominance in the middle east.The sudden emergence of sunni warriors like Jordan, Saudi Arabia,Egypt etc...is a complete joke.These are the same countries that have been detaining and killing sunni ulema for years.They are the same people who's countries are used as bases(by America) to attack muslim countries.Know they are trying to politically manipulate the masses into fearing the new boogeyman "Iran".In order to carry out the dirty work of the Zionists and the Neocons.Some of the sunni warriorsin Iraq are the remanants of the anti islamic baathists members. In Palestine the Americas and Sunni Arab states are heavily backing Fatah against the Iranian/Syrian backed Hamas.In Lebanon the Saudis and West are backing Sionaras Governent against the Shia dominated Hezbollah. This political wrangling will probably get worser as both sides continue to put money and resources to back thier allies. Yesterday,in Iraq a policemans car blew up when he turned his siren on.I doubt these types of sophisticated attacks are caried out by the insurgents.There are probably Zarqawi types who are willing to blow themselves up.However i cannot believe that the mass detonations of one killo bombs in Baghdad markets are carried out by "sunni insurgents" are what the media is telling us. I remember a while back two British soldiers where caught with Arab clothing shooting Iraqi police officers, in which the Brits had to rescue them.You might call me a conspiracy theorist but i say there are outside agents who are setting up bombs in order to create sectarian violence all across the Middle East.A Shia- Sunni war will only suit one state in the Middle East.....go figure.....

Firstly, I can't believe the observer would publish such a provocative title "taking the fight to Islam".One couldn't clearly get away with a headnline titled " Taking the fight to Judaism" or "Taking the Fight to Christianity".However i am not surprised. The contradictions that Ayan Hersi found in the Muslim world are all too common.Look around the Muslim world and you will see the most prevelant; racism, xenophobia,oppression of women, poverty, warfare and many other ills. It is also interesting that she joined an organisation such as the Muslim Brotherhood.Then would become the staunchest enemy of Islam.However i do not consider her any greater or more intelligent than the Quraish, Persians and many other who have "taken" the fight to Islam.......

May and "soon" join are the keywords in the article.Secondly note that the United Nations refrained away from mentioning the words "Independence" and "Sovereignity" in their statement on the Kosovo.

In that case you should look out for the thesis "The Genetic Backwardness of Somalis", coming soon to a Univesity, Refugee Camp or Internet forum near you. The Marfish inhabitors cold disect the data to reveal which regions/tribes are more "genetically backwards", am sure it would excite the faraxz on sol.......