Ngonge, firstly I was actually joking with you. But it seems you took it the wrong way. As for not responding to you, I told you before I'm kind busy and to be honest probably just 2 dam lazy to write one of those lengthy replies. But if you wanna hang a medal around for neck for that, go ahead it's all yours. As for being holier than thou, I am not the one that claimed to have the solutions for Somalia nor I am the one that claimed to be rational. I am not the one that is constantly dismissing people as dreamers, emotional, irrational etc and whatnot. Your so called rationality and objective outlook on the situation in Somalia is a simply a case of regurgitating(for the past 6 months) the financial, economic and political capabilities of the Ethios and the T.F.G, and also constantly reminding us of the suicidal desperate nature of the so called resistance. I would have thought ones needs not to be "objective" or "rational" to claim that! I will leave you to come up with the "rational" and objective solution for Somalia. Do present your graphs and your scienfitic analysis of the current situation!Ooh and please be as rational as possible.

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne: Many Somalis are known to be Somalis That was a classic indeed!

The demonstration in Muqdisho is dismissed, but the demonstrations in Lasanod are described as gun battles in every alley

They are not the only ones dreaming

If the oil runs out the Kings and princes will have some problems. It could threaten the actual existence of the monarchy which is actually prohibited in Islam. It could also raise external threats which could challenge the custodians(false)of the holy mosques and global Wahabi project. Hence why this new King is mingling with some Muslims who less Saudi affliated Islam. Secondly by investing in science etc, it will hopefully create more educated ppl middle class....thus stemming the flow of young unemployed into the hands of anti monarchy Bin laden typ groups. In any case the Saudi thing will have to run it's course one day or another...........

choose to do neither and instead rationalise the whole thing and think of ways to get us out of this quandary. If one of these ways happen to be the lending of my support to the TFG (bear in mind that this is nothing but a vocal support) so be it. At the moment, from this privileged position of mine, and for the reasons I gave BiLaaL in our earlier exchange, I have no other choice but to support those turncoats. Love them or hate them, they got us into this mess and they seem to be the only side that is capable of getting us out of it. Baad mare hore sidaa iska tidhahdiid?

Originally posted by Fatah_Al_Soomaal: And indeed his forces are keeping a getting an asskicking(a very good one). Hence why he can't leave right now! I wonder if the Ethiopian soldiers are buried and collected or do they leave them to rot in Muqdisho streets?

By Abdi Sheikh and Aweys Yusuf MOGADISHU (Reuters) - Heavy fighting killed at least six people in Mogadishu on Saturday as Ethiopian troops clashed with Islamist-led insurgents in the worst battles for weeks. Residents said the violence began before dawn in the heart of the Somali capital, where an interim government backed by Ethiopia and Western nations is struggling to exert authority. "I can see four dead men lying in the street from my balcony," resident Ismail Osman, told Reuters by telephone. "Ethiopian troops and insurgents are fighting in every alley." Another terrified resident, Fatuma Ali, said there were two dead men and four injured in the dusty road outside her home. "No one can carry them away, because anyone who comes out of his house is shot dead," she said. Somalia's fragile government has faced an Iraq-style insurgency of roadside bombings, assassinations and suicide attacks since it routed a hardline Islamist movement in January with the help of Ethiopia's military. But Saturday's sustained clashes with the rebels were the heaviest for weeks. Many residents were wounded by stray bullets and shrapnel from artillery strikes. We have received 21 wounded persons, including policemen and civilians," Dahir Mohamed Dhere, a manager at Mogadishu's chaotic main Madina Hospital, told Reuters. "The number is increasing minute after minute ... you can see how most of them are very serious cases." The latest fighting comes as political divisions between Somalia's president and prime minister threaten to split the fledgling administration -- the 14th attempt to forge central rule in the turbulent Horn of Africa state. President Abdullahi Yusuf and Prime Minister Ali Mohamed Gedi have feuded almost from the moment they came to power in late 2004 after peace talks in Kenya. Reuters Pictures

http://www.newstatesman.com/200710250023

Originally posted by Khalaf: Xiin, thats what i been saying for long time, somalia at least the south should be put under Trustship (somewhat like colonization era), maybe this is what Ethiopia wants to do and she won't be able for obvious reasons.... but a Muslim country should do it or even America/Europe which are more capeable then Ethiopia. It was already under "trustship" and designated to Somali warlords who got their weapons from lavish hotels in East African countries. But please Akhi dont wish for Southern Somalia to be under the trustship of Americans. They would give the people mcdonalds, coca cola plants and plenty of B5s bombers. Anway no Africans, Muslims etc are coming...the entire world is supporting Ethiopia to stay......

And indeed his forces are keeping a getting an asskicking(a very good one). Hence why he can't leave right now!

quote:although the diatribe starts against “Islamists”, soon the mask drops, and Amis turns his fire on Muslims. quote:Although it is “Islamic radicalism” he claims to loathe and condemn, he almost always slips into reviling Muslims, In essence if he said what he said about "Islamists" then it would be be perfectly acceptable to the moderates and the larger(politically correct) society? Would it be acceptable(society) to kidnap,detain and deport suspected Islamists? The irony is that the above author hasn't defined what exactly differentiates an "Islamist" from an "ordinary muslim"?And this Amis should have stuck to his guns...and stood by his remarks......for why should ppl be forced to apologise if they dont like Islam and Muslims?

Ngone, I dont have much time, so ill have to reply to another time...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PsuINLIpCi8

Teenagers brainwashed by the Cult. Reports reaching our cafe desk suggest that two teenagers have been brainwashed by the cult of Somaliland. The incident took place yesterday near a well 40 kilometres from the city of Laascaanood, a disputed border town. The two teenagers were approached by two secret Somaliland officials and then programmed with pro Somaliland propoganda, whilst they were drinking water from a nearby well.Several well known Puntland doctors said the symptons of the cult taking root include: posting excessive pro- Somaliland propoganda on the Somaliaonline politics section, displaying the Somaliland flag and believing firmly in the superiority and democratic ideals of Somaliland. The two teengaers are said to be young nomads, who have started to decorate their camels and macawis with the Somaliland colours, something which is fiercely objected to by local pro-Puntland nomads. There is also a danger that two young men could be ostrisized for their association with Somaliland cult. The perpetrators are still at large, although Puntland authorities suspect an individual who goes by the nicknames of Jacaylbro or SheikaJacaylka.General Duke,the Puntland minister for information and propoganda warfare on the Somaliaonline forum, yesterday vowed to " take all measures to find and hunt down the cult". According to reliable reports obtained from local Cafes and Khat houses Puntland is close to declaring " a war on the cult" and has appealed for urgent funding from the International Community. We will keep you updated with any further news. Source:Somaliaonline.com

Caamir, Cadde Muse it to blame for the "debacle". He sent most of the army to die for Meles Zenawi and be ripped apart by roadside bombs in Muqdisho. Whilst the rest were unpaid, unfed and lacked the basis skills and machinery. In any case there will not be a sudden rush to a clan war as some would hope.All political leaders and traditonal leaders will meet in a large gathering of the mentioned clan.

they are combatants too....

quote:south and because lack of strategy, leadership, and political/financial international backing/maneuvering.....just screwed up! I don't believe that is entirely the case. Yes, mistakes, errors and some gross political risks were taken by that aforementioned group.Indeed there was a certain amount of political naivety on behalf of the Alitixadi groups. But in all in all, when they look back at that time they would probably take that same root again and again. Other states have special measures when they go to war. Legislations is by-passed, the president is given more financial backing and more international backing is required. When the I.C.U defeated the warlords in June 2006, a meeting was called by Jenday Frazer, Zenawi and others in Adiss Ababa. There it was decided that Ethiopia would invade Somalia and attempt to oust the I.C.U. Channel 4 actually obtained the minutes from that meeting and those parties have not denied those claims. Thus after one month thousands of Ethiopians started crossing the Somali border. Therefore the I.C.U knew full well that had to make preprations for war from that period onwards. Bear in mind this war was instigated by the entire international community, namely U.S,Europe and even the U.N who broke their own resolution. Of course political channels were explored and negotiations took place, but war was imminent as both sides rejected each others proposals. If one believes that the I.C.U could have avoided war with the Ethiopian regime, then you could say that they "blew" their opportunity. I dont believe that I.C.U could have avoided a war with the Ethiopians regime. The only way that could be done was to accept their proposals; to accept the presence of Ethiopians troops, not rule by the Shariah, give up claims to the occupied region and hand over some wanted men. Those proposals are not to different from the ones that were offered to a certain Sayid Muhamd Abdullah Hassan. And he died in the wilderness; sick, tired and betrayed by his own people. But my friend that is a better to leave this world than a lifetime of servitude to another man.

I understand your argument fully. But I have to to disagree with it. Given the fact the Ethiopia already owns and stole a large portion of Somali territory, namely the ocaden province. Whereby Oromos have been implanted into Somali territory and the local population has been subjected to gross human rights violations. Secondly the ideological leaders behind the I.C.U have been fighting the Ethiopians in the occupied region of Ocaden,whereby some of their leaders have been killed and other returned to Southern Somalia. Thus one has to look at the situation in Somalia not as a simple "regime change". Perhaps Ethiopia does require for Somalia to have a functional central government. Maybe Ethiopia does want Somali clans in Southern Somalia toreconcile, although this is contradicted by the support given to various warlords over the last decade or so. However, there are enormous ideological, political and religous issues at stake in Somalia. Ethiopia wants to see a certain Somalia, which doesnt have to be chaotic or warprone. This could well have a central government. This type of Somalia has to be federal, clan organized and must also give away certain concessions to the Ethiopian regime and other agents in the Big Brother scheme of things. Firstly any one that rules any part of Somalia has to be pro Ethiopian regime. Just take a look at the people that run the various entities in Somalia, namely Puntland, Somaliland, T.F.G and various other warlord rulers. All of these have one thing in common: they are all pro Ethiopian regimes. If you think about this, it is something of a remarkeable achievment.How this came about is unimportant and its beyond the scope of a public forum. Somaliland was created and run by S.N.M leaders (funded and armed by Ethiopia);Puntland was run by S.S.D.F leaders(again funded from Ethiopia); and Southern Somalia was controlled by various Warlords(again funded and armed by Ethiopia). In other words the Ethiopian regime played a key role in the ousting of the Somali government and the descent into clan based fiefdoms and warlord run territories. Perhaps this was accelerated by good old Somali clanism. Ethiopia with the help of other agents have done their very best to discourage Somalia from adopting any Islamic or Somali nationalistic inspired governments. I already gave the example of encouraging various clan backed movements to overthrow the Somali state and supporting them control Somalia thereafter. Of course Siyad Bare effectively signed of Somali claims of the Ocaden region, however this was after internal conflicts which applied to pressure to the Somali society.But, nevertheless Ethiopian regime played a key role in overthrow of the Somali government. Furthermore, the Ethiopian regime is said to have interferred in every Somali attempt to form a government. This is clearly evident with the close relationship with the T.F.G, to the extent that anti Ethiopian influenced politicians such as Galayd have been hounded out of their jobs. Today we even have Ethiopian troops disrupting Somali cabinet meetings and so called Somali leaders jet off to Adiss at the click of a finger. Moreover, the Ethiopian regime has decreed war on any use of an Islamic(in the real sense of the word) based system of governance inside Somalia. Again this evident from the war against Alitixaad and current war against the Islamic Courts Union. Thus the Ethiopian regime has historically and till this day fought against those that want an Islamic based system, those that advocate Pan Somaliasm(concede occupied Somali territories) and those that reject her interference inside Somalia. To sump up my your rant, I must say I heavily disagree with your claim that Ethiopia is simply after a regime change in Somalia. Rather this a prolonged conflict with ideological, political and economic dimensions, whereby Ethiopia(with the help of other agents) seeks to create a Somali with the following critrea: 1. A Somali government and peoples that withdraw any claims or sympathy with regards to occupied region of the Ocaden.This includes handing over any suspects from this region to Ethiopia without any judicial process. 2. A Somalia that is run according to clan fiefdoms and clan formula(some call this federalism). 3. A Somalia that doesnt govern itself by the laws of the Shariah(which has many supporters). This includes the killing, torture and detention of those Ulema that spoke out against the practices of Ethiopia against Somali citizens. 4. Any one that displays of an IOTA of concern regarding Ethiopian ventures in Somalia is hound out of the politcal process. Again this evident by the expulsion of Somali politicians from the political arena for simply uttering concerns about Ethiopia's ventures in Somalia. Now tell me all the above arent happening in Somalia? Tell me that the entities known as Somaliland, Puntland, Ocaden province and the T.F.G arent putting those issues to execution? Tell me all these organizations dont run according to clan based formulas?Tell me that Somali citizens handed over to the Ethiopian regime for free or for ammunition? Tell me that the people of the Deen(in the real sense of word) aren't being sold or bounty hunted by warlords both in today and past 16 years? Of course one could say that this is the essentially the fault of the Somali people. Furthermore it can be argued that Somali clanism and Qabilism are the root causes of the conflict in Somalia. Yes Somalis fought each other and they didnt create a government for sixteen years. Perhaps Somalis are backwards and ignorant people as some here have claimed. Am not denying a large amount of Somalis are more loyal to their clan more-so than their religion or state. This are facts and arguments which have strong evidence to back them. I am not saying that the I.C.U are perfect nor I am saying the boys in Asmara are going to bring honey milk to Somalia. However,I will never support the venture of Ethiopia into the arena of Somalia, which has spread into every sphere of Somali society, be it religous, political or economic. There are some concessions which can't be made, even if youre the poorest most backward nation on earth and the T.F.G/ Ethiopia have a chance of forming you a government. Still though, I consider my self a realist and not a dreamer as our thoughtful expert Mr Ngonge has portrayed me as. I have always maintained that the Asmara Group and T.F.G should meet to pathe the way for the withdrawl of foreign troops(Ethiopia) and the replacement with international(muslim, africa or Arab). You can find those threads on this very forum. I said early one that the presence of Ethio troops in Muqdisho would lead to a prolonged conflict whereby the Ethiopians and T.F.G take heavy casualties. However my views were dismissed and I was told that those "rag tag" terrorists had no chance against the mighty Ethiopians and Ugandans, and they would apparently destroy everything in their way whilst leaving Somalia in a few weeks/months. This was suppose to be a new era of democracy, government and the Ethiopians were suppose to bring Somalia to its feet once again. Tell me now who are the dreamers? The Ethiopian adventure will be fought, denounced and condemned at every opportunity. It matters not whether the Somali people are armed with Tanks,Technicals; nor does it matter if they are armed with simple rifles or even rocks to throw at tanks. This doesn't need scientific or economic formula to understand! As one of our nomads(SOS) on SOL explained it: quote:Of course the option of unconditional surrender was on table as demanded by Ethiopia in their last face-to-face meeting, which included full denunciation of all our irredentist historical rights to occupied territories, distancing from the central religious ambition to self-determination per rule by the Qur'an and Sunnah, full disarmament and acceptance of Ethiopia troops occupying Somalia. That was the only other alternative choice available, and I really mean it when I say death is a more honourable rational choice. As Shakespeare ones wrote: If we are mark'd to die, we are enow To do our country loss; and if to live, The fewer men, the greater share of honour. God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.

quote:Yet those whose self-proclaimed banner states that they will re-liberate Somalia only further enable Ethiopia's occupation. That has been the same argument used by all occupiers since the start of history..In any case some of those that declared war in on Ethiopia wanted to entice her into a prolonged occupation and guerilla war in Somalia....some of those were speaking of a long war inside Somalia within the first days of the week....I also suspect that Meles Zenawi must have discussed the prospect of a long conflict inside Muqdisho....I mean do you seriously believe that he intended to leave southern Somalia within a few weeks? Even Mr Geedi let slip that they could stay for months or perhaps even longer until " the job done".

Question Oodweyne, Castro or any others that can answer: Well known Sool personalities such as Garad Abdiqani and Galayd attended the Burco conference, did these personalities endorse the matter of seccession?If indeed this was discussed at this meeting?

Sow adiga hunguri la baxay.

Are the reer L.A who are supporting and providing the bulk of the "invading" army not considered "locals"? Or is this the only reserved for those that support PL milita?

This brings me back to your question. What should Somali people do? I hope by now you know what the answer is. Yes I already know that answer. The Ethiopians and T.F.G are in the best position to militarily, politically and economically govern Somalia. Anyone that tries to resist them is virtually commiting suicide as they are ill equiped. Thus the Somali people should quote-unqoute " work through the T.F.G". Let us end our story there for now !

If i present plainly, in a word or two, A short account of myself and of my life You will all you have to say to me With no one contradicting "You are telling the truth indeed!" When i was a boy, with no share yet in the affairs of men I used to fill my ear, as if it were a vessel. With the preaching of sheikh's, With the advice of my old parents, And with their words of guidance Concerning the path of the holy faith. Thus rightly counselled, I had an aim in mind. A good cleric was what i would become! I acquired for myself the implements of true piety- A vessel for ablutions, the holy book, And a very good mat for prayers- Yet still you called me wiilwaal, crazy lad! And then it happened That the fighting you were engaged in Planted a desire in me To show my solidarity with other men, And if I had not bridled my horse weyrax. the rager Nor held the shining spears and the shield of rhinoceros hide. If I had not cried, "onward,men!" as i launched an attack At the first breaking of dawn's light, And if I had not then hewn "gurey" into quarters- The enemy would have overrun our country! p.s Gaal Gurey was apparently an Oromo Chief who tried to invade Somali territory in the early 19th century...