Originally posted by NGONGE: I probably failed again, but the effort of trying to suppress the sarcasm, condescension and patronising putdowns was immense. I am not sure if I could survive another ordeal. Hah. Now that's funny. No problem brother. So we have a mutual understanding. I will continue to spout random ahadeeth and ayat, and you will continue to remind me that I am a hijab-adjusting hollow beard stroker, and there will be no ill feelings between us.

Originally posted by Rahima: A few of the brothers here (and I can quote) in an attempt to justify their thoughts/opinions are belittling the rights of women. The Prophet sulallahu alayhi wa salam never belittled the rights of women, but instead established them, upheld them, and set the example for us to follow. If we all spent a little more time and put a little more effort into knowing his Sunnah sulallahu alayhi wa salam, women's rights wouldn't be an issue among muslims. Wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by bilan: i do not know why do we make things more complicated than they are. men have a right to marry 4,and women have a right not to be one them. Well said, mashallah. Right to the point. I agree with this completely myself. The Shari'a is just and fair, complete and perfect for all-time and every occasion.

Originally posted by Ducaqabe: This topic is getting out of control. Can we just get along? I think by now Nasir made up his mind. Ducadii baa Alle u aqbalay. Unless he's going to India, he isn't thinking about Maryooley. Ninka Cadaan, Thanks for sharing your story. I take it your wife is Somali. Hey nomads, let's try to be good reer xidid. Hope you know the term. Do you go by whiteman? I would think there're other interesting nicknames. Rahima, ragaan kugu goobanaaya waad iska dhicisay. Bilaash booska laguuguma dooran. Walee inaad fariidad tahay. Gacan baan kuu taagay. Akhi karim, salam calaykom.. ha, xaaske wax waye Somali.. I don't mind the nickname. I am used to it. It's ok, don't worry about the flaring emotions. Let them vent and get their anger out. After that, we can really get down to business with a serious exchange of ideas and principals inshallah. I don't mind all the fuss really.

Rahima, to save my hand from typing too much, please revisit Haseena's post on page 6 of this topic. What she said there, I agree with completely, 100%, and I echo her sentiments exactly. That is where I stand if you are in doubt of my intentions, or if you have been confused by my posts. Shukran abayo. Jazak Allah Khair. Barak Allah feek.

Originally posted by NGONGE: ^^^ That’s good of you and I appreciate it. I also believe you to be sincere in what you write. But it is still wrong. Keep doing it and I’ll keep talking about fake-mullahs (can’t expect you to forgive me every time). PS You being an ajnabi means nothing to me. I’m arguing with you because you’re a Muslim who I think understands the faith and applies it the wrong way (on here at least). How am I applying it the wrong way, and be specific. If you can bring authentic proof that would also be beneficial.

I never said you did.. show me where I accused someone, anyone, of mockery.. Please don't take my post so personal, because it wasn't meant personally for you. As I stated before, it was general nasihah, not directed to anyone specific. As for those whom automatically assumed that this fatwa from the Sheikh al-Fawzan was meant for them personally, I implore you to ask yourselves why you took Muhammad Cadaan's post as a personal attack on yourself, when he stated clearly that it was a general advice or reminder for no specific individual.

Who did I accuse of mockery and where?

Originally posted by NGONGE: Insults? Oh look! Another fake mullah with a hidden message. Oops! Did I call you a fake mullah? It really is not what you think, brother. I’m a fellow believer like you and I have my reasons when I point out all the artificial mullahs and fake beard strokers. What are you talking about sir? I do not understand what you are trying to say, or what the point is you are making. All these names you are calling me, I'm not even sure what they mean exactly, but it seems they are not nice, or could be taken as hostile even. If you want to call me jahil, alxamdulillaah, I am. If you want to call me ajnabi, alxamdulilaah, I am that too, but artificial mullah and fake beard stroker with a hidden message? That is just a weird thing to call someone. Do you always attack people who post Islamic content that doesn't agree with your particular view? No problem brother. May Allaah make it easy for you. I forgive you.

But it was not intended for a particular individual, it was intended as a general reminder to our brothers and sisters, as the tone of some of our posts was somewhat mocking, but the subject was something that had to do with Islam. So I posted that nice reminder to benefit whoever may take heed, and regardless of whether the post landed exactly where I intended it, it is a beautiful reminder, no matter when or where. Jazak Allahu Khairon.

I was originally born and raised in Ohio. In the mid 1990's I moved to Chicago, Illinois, where I connected with people I knew from the internet via IRC #gothic. After having stayed there for four years I made a lot of friends in the area. It just so happened that the neighborhood I had moved to was populated predominantly by immigrants from the middle-east and Asia. There were all kinds of interesting people who lived around me, really. Out of all of them, I became especially intrigued with the Muslims, mostly because they looked and behaved so differently. You couldn't imagine what it was like for me to see these types of people walking around all the time - sights to see, such as old men with super-long beards dyed fire red, wearing long white cotton robes, turbans on their heads and heavy black eyeliner.. women wrapped from head to toe in dark gauzy fabrics, obscuring most of, and sometimes all of their entire bodies.. people speaking a diffusion of different languages I had never heard before.. and all of that was right in the middle of ultra-urban Chicago. You have to realize, I had come from a deep rural setting, to this. It was enthralling. While taking the steps to make friends with some of my Muslim neighbors, something strange happened to me in the process. All of the malicious stereotypes and prejudices I had been presented with during my life concerning Muslim people and the religion of Islam now came to the forefront of my mind. Much of it was now beginning to seem very obviously distorted. With some effort, I was able to gradually overcome all of those implanted prejudices, which I had never realized, nor would have admitted I was harboring. I had to think back to where all those negative opinions originated from. I had never been around Muslims at all in my whole life! My parents surely hadn't taught it to me. I slowly came to realize that all of that negativity had come primarily from two sources.. television/radio media, and the elementary grade-school teachings of my formative years. I can recall today statements from certain grade-school teachers of mine who delivered such disturbing phrases as, "Islam is the religion of the sword, and whoever lives by the sword, dies by the sword!" I was shown classical anti-Islamic Judeo-Christian period films in school, such as "El Cid". I was taught to recite "The Lords Prayer" in my public elementary school. I was also taught many descriptive labels and how to apply them, such as "towel-head", "sand-nigger", and "swarthy people". I could go further but I won't. What I eventually came to understand by my own research concerning the religion of Islam pretty much blew my mind. I realized I could never turn away from it once I understood the truth of what Islam really was. By 1999 I decided it was worth changing my life for. Everything I loved or was addicted to I was ready to give it up for the sake of Allaah, and I began doing that, step by step.. a little at a time. I began practicing gradually at first, not telling anyone out of fear of rejection and mockery. After my old friends and I drifted apart, I pretty much cut my ties to everything I used to be. I was trying very hard to clean up my act, so I could better fit into my new and hard-won faith. Later on that spring, I asked one of my muslim neighbors to take me to a mosque. He told me that he had a "very religious" uncle who went to the mosque almost every week, on Fridays. He scheduled me to meet with his uncle on the following Friday, at noon. The night beforehand, I was so excited that I didn't sleep at all. In the morning I took a shower, and put on my nicest muslim clothing. I then proceeded to meet my friend's uncle, who drove me to the mosque nearby. When we arrived, he entered, leading me by the hand to the back of the room where I was motioned to sit down. The uncle then joined some men sitting on the other side of the room. I sat and listened to the lecture that was being given, and I watched the people pray afterward. When it appeared to be finished, someone announced that there was going to be a new shahada, and that everyone should stay to witness it. I concluded that this "shahada" might concern me. I was correct. The uncle came and led me by the hand again to the front of the mosque, where I sat down on the floor in front of this old, old man with a long white beard. There were several hundred men sitting around me, as onlookers. The old man asked me if anyone had forced me to come there, and if I willingly wanted to be a muslim. After I explained that indeed, no one had forced me, and that I did want to be a muslim, he asked me to repeat some words in Arabic, which I fumbled over two or three times. Then he asked me to declare in English that there was nothing worthy of worship except Allah (God), and that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the final messenger of Allah. I did, and when this was finished, we stood, and all of those men approached me, one at a time to give me a hug, shake my hand, and finally offer me some words of encouragement. I had never in my life been hugged by that many people before! It must have taken like two hours. I was exhausted but very happy when it was all finished, and from that day forward, I have never quite been the same as I was before. In order that I could conform to Islamic prohibitions on dating and opposite-sex mixing, I got quickly married in 2001 to a seemingly family-oriented young woman by the name of Judith Espinosa-de-los-Monteros. Afterward, I moved back to Ohio with the honest intention of starting a new life there as a Muslim. Judith unfortunately did not have the religious faith I had. She had other plans in mind for herself (partying), and for our future (child support). Five months after the birth of my son Anwar, I came home from work one day to find she had disappeared back to Chicago with him! She simply could not to be convinced to abort her mission. I feared for my son's future, and I knew that taking responsibility for him was a must. I simply could not let him go, to be raised in a non-Islamic environment.. so I called on Allah the Exalted for His mercy, and I took my son back. After some difficulty, I was eventually granted a divorce and full custody of my child, al-hamdulillah. I was from that point on a single father with a six month baby until further notice. Once again, I called on Allah, and was granted out of His mercy (through an arranged Islamic marriage) a beautiful 19 year old wife from East Africa. She speaks four languages, wears niqab (the veil), and has a degree in Early Childhood Education. What more could I ask for? I was humbled. She has proved to be a blessing, helping me to raise my son, taking care of him like he was her very own. I moved to Canada and lived with her family for one year in Toronto until her parents gave us approval to return back to the States together. We have since moved back to Columbus Ohio with our new daughter Fozia and my son Anwar, who is now three years old. Here we plan to stay for a little while, spending time to teach my family about Allah - the Exalted, and helping my younger sister, her husband and their four children, who recently converted to Islam to learn more about our religion. Life is truly a test and no one knows what will become of himself. Surely I could not have foreseen ending up with this life if you had asked me ten years ago to guess my future. It has turned out to be better than I ever would have expected.

Nacam Ukhti.

Originally posted by Libaax-Sankataabte: "Muhammad Howell - Niinka Cadaan" What a name. salam alaykom brother My full name is Muhammad Clenn Howell. Before I accepted Islam, it was John Clenn Howell. I put Niinka Cadaan because that is what I get called all day at work. Somali children sometimes refer to me as Shaytanka Cadaanka or Galo. Sometimes I just say my name is Muhammad Cadaan, or Muhammad Amriki. Some people call me Abu-Anwar because of my son, Anwar. It seems like being Muslim requires one to have many names and aliases.. alhamdulillah

Mashallah Haseena you are speaking haq.

Originally posted by sheherazade: Muhammad Howell - Niinka Cadaan, I URGE you not copy/paste hither tither. Nobody wants to call u(no offence), if u can't explain yrself here we're not going to be tempted to lose money on a long distance call are we? Naasir, Ashwarya Rai, eh? Cause u're worth it I suppose? I didn't post hither tither, and somebody did just call me. So what is with the hostility, and why all the concern? I don't wish to argue, only to participate as a muslim brother. There is nothing here to fight over. p.s. I am going to go make Salaat al-Asr, so if anyone calls and I don't pick up, just try back in 10 minutes inshallah. jazak Allaah khair.

That is my number at work, at the Global Mall, where I am sitting right now (4:10 PM Eastern Time). Feel free to call me. I will answer the phone. I am not lying. Lying is haraam.

Originally posted by Castro: ^ I'd like to hear the explanation too. Can we keep this online? Thanks! Castro, I recognize a baited trap when I see one. If you wish to hear more about that fatwa, you can call me too saxiib.

Originally posted by Rahima: quote: And now I must go shopping fast! Sounds almost tempting , but my heart wouldn’t let me. I keep getting shocked by these men (don't know why though). Allow me to ask just one question, where in Allahs religion does it state that a sister lacks in taqwah because she does not want to be involved in such a marriage? I mean would I be lacking taqwa because I don’t like timir, or lizards? I mean they’re both xalaal right, just like polygyny. [/b]salam alaykom Ukhti. I am not stating that a woman lacks taqwah and deen if she dislikes for herself to be in a polygynous marriage. The choice for polygyny is given to the man, but the woman always has the Islamic right to seek a khula if she wishes. Although, I don't know if there are many mushayikh who would issue a khula because of jealousy. However, let me clarify, I am stating that to disklike that polygyny has been Legislated by Allaah is a very dangerous matter for any believer.

Originally posted by NGONGE: ^^^ There goes NGONGE Still, I can’t understand how this applies to this topic. Is it a passing fatwa? Does it apply to anything the people on this thread discussed? Hey, there's no need to hurl insults at me. I am a muslim, and I am assuming you are one too. Don't you know that a Believer is the one from whom other believers are safe from harm... If you are not a muslim, then please excuse me. I'm sorry if you missed the point, but it wasn't meant for you. Also, you are right about it being out of place somewhat because I posted it in response to some statements on the previous couple of pages, same topic though.. If you want an explanation of why I posted this, just message me and I will tell you. Or you can call me at (614)475-4644 and I will be happy to explain to you offline.

Mockery of the Religion is Disbelief Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan Source: Things that Nullify One's Islam (p.41-46) [1] [ In the Name of Allah, the All-Merciful... ] The sixth one: Whoever mocks anything from the Religion of the Messenger or Allah's reward or punishment has disbelieved. [2] The sixth kind of apostasy is mockery of what Allah sent down or of anything that the Messenger came with, even things from the Sunnahs (of the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) or recommended things like siwaak, trimming the moustache, removing armpit hair, or trimming the nails. If a person makes mockery of any of these things he becomes a disbeliever. The evidence for this is found in the Statement of Allah the Most High: "And if you were to ask them, they would say: 'Surely we were only jesting and playing.' Say: 'Was it Allah, His Verses, or His Messenger you were mocking? Make no mistake, verily you have disbelieved after your belief.' " [3] So then the one who mocks anything that the Messenger came with, be it obligatory or recommended, he is an apostate from the Religion of Islam. So then what do you think about the one who says, "Growing the beard, trimming the moustache, removing armpit hair, washing the knuckles, these are insignificant things!" This is exactly what is meant by mockery of the Religion of Allah, the Mighty and Majestic. When they say this thing, and if they know (it is from the Religion), then they have apostated, since this is belittling what the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) came with. It is obligatory to have great reverence for the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and to respect it. Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan Source: Things that Nullify One's Islam (p.41-46)

There is no contradiction in the verses regarding polygamy Question: Concerning polygyny, it is stated in the Qur.aan: {If you fear that you will not be able to deal justly [with more then one wife], than [marry] only one}, [soorah an-Nisaa., Aayah 3]. However, in another place, it states: {You will never be able to do perfect justice between your wives even if it is your ardent desire}, [soorah an-Nisaa., Aayah 129]. In the first verse, the condition of being just among the wives is stated while in the second it makes it clear that the condition of justice could never be met. Does this mean that the first verse is abrogated and that it is not allowed to many more than one woman since the condition of justice cannot be fulfilled? Benefit us, may Allaah reward you. Response: There is no contradiction between the two verses. There is also no abrogation by one verse of the other. The justice that is mentioned in the first verse is the justice within one's ability, which is related to being fair in division of time and in maintenance. As for being just with respect to love and sexual relations, this is not within one's ability. This is what is being referred to in the verse: {You will never be able to do perfect justice between your wives even if it is your ardent desire}, [soorah an-Nisaa., Aayah 129]. In a Hadeeth about the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) ‘Aa.ishah stated: "The Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) used to divide his time between his wives and he was fair. He used to say: ((O Allaah, that is my division with respect to what I have control over. Do not blame me for what You control and over which I have no control)). This was recorded by Abu Daawood, at-Tirmidhee, an-Nasaa.ee, Ibn Maajah. It was graded Saheeh by Ibn Hibbaan and al-Haakim. Shaykh Ibn Baaz Fataawa al-Mar.ah

Concerning polygamy Question: Some people say that marrying more than one wife is not allowed unless a person has orphans under his care and he fears that he will not do justice between them. Then he may marry their mother or one of her daughters. For evidence, they quote the verse: {And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan-girls, then marry women of your choice, two, three or four...}, [soorah an-Nisaa., Aayah 3). Response: This statement is false. The meaning of the verse is that if a person has under his care an orphan and he fears that he will not give her the proper amount of dower, then he should marry other women, for there are many women and Allaah will not make things difficult for him. The verse points to the legality of marrying two, three or four wives. This is allowed because it leads to more chastity, lowering of eyesight and guarding of the private parts. Furthermore, that is a cause for more children and the chastity of more women, as well as them being treated properly and cared for. There is no doubt that the woman who has one-half of a husband or one-third or one-fourth is better off than the one who has no husband at all. However, one must meet the condition of justice among the wives and the ability to take care of and tend to the wives. If a person fears that he will not do justice, then he may only many one wife in addition to having slaves. The practice of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) indicates and stresses that. When he died, he had nine wives. And Allaah says about him: {Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah you have a good example to follow}, [soorah al-Ahzaab, Aayah 21]. The Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) made it clear to his Nation that it was allowed for him to have more than four wives. Therefore, following his example on this point would mean taking four wives or less. Beyond four wives is something that is specific for the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) only. Shaykh Ibn Baaz Fataawa al-Mar.ah

Originally posted by Naasir: My fellow Brothers and Sisters I am currently dating some one with the purpose of getting married when the right time comes. However y'll know when u r dating you talk about almost every thing... Salam calaykom, Bismillah. You are dating? Are you chaperoned by her muhrim on these dates? Akhi, I suggest you make istikhara and either marry the woman or don't marry her. This dating thing is definately not from Islam, but is quite ordinary in the West among the kuffar, who also claim to do it with the intention of getting married, so be careful my brother and fear Allah wherever you can. If this woman is willing to "date you" without a muhrim present and she will talk to you endlessly on the phone about any subject you wish without the consent of her muhrim, then you might think very seriously about the state of her imaan and her taqwah of Allah subhana wa tacala. If she has taqwah (which requires KNOWLEDGE of Allah aza wa jel and His religion), then polygyny won't be a big problem because the girl will take the Sahabiyat as her example and be content and pleased with what Allaah has legislated in his Mighty Book concerning marriage, and if she has knowledge and taqwah, she would be content to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (sulallaahu alayhi wa salam) and the way of his companions (radhiallaahu anhum). So don't waste your time talking and dating. Get permission from her muhrim, determine if the girl has deen and taqwah, and if she does and you are pleased with her and she is pleased with you, get married. Don't be afraid. If you do it for the sake of Allah and you marry a woman for her deen, you will be successful. I am speaking from experience. My first marriage failed because I married a woman who had no deen. I met my second wife (who has deen) only one time - in the presence of her family - and we got married a week later. It had it arranged by Sheikh Abukar at Khalid ibn Walid Masjid in Toronto. That was like three years ago. Now we have a happy Islamic family, mashallah. Akhi, here is a good reminder from Sheikh ibn Uthaymeen concerning this subject, barak Alaahu feekum. Relations before marriage Question: What is the view of the religion concerning [pre-marital] relations? Response: If the questioner means by "before marriage," before consummation of the marriage but after the contract, the there is no harm in such relations since she is his wife by virtue of the contract, even though they have not decorously consummate the marriage. However, if it is before the marriage, such as during the period of engagement or otherwise, such contact is forbidden and impermissible. It is not allowed for a man to enjoy a nor related woman's company, either by speech, look or private company. It is confirmed that the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) said: ((A man cannot be alone with a woman except in the presence of [one of her] mahram. And a woman cannot travel except with a mahram)). In sum, if that contact or association is after the marriage contract, there is no harm in it. If it is before the marriage ceremony, even if it is after proposal and acceptance, it is not allowed. Such behavior is forbidden for him since the woman is a non-relative and non-wife until they conclude the marriage contract. Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen Fataawa al-Mar.ah

Let's look at the statements of the true People of Knowledge, our Great Scholars (who have extensive knowledge of Islam) and we will see what they have to say about Islam and the Sunnah. Imaam al-Barbahaari (a great Muslim Scholar of the past), in his famous book Sharh as-Sunnah, said: " Know that Islam is the Sunnah, and the Sunnah is Islam, and one them cannot be established without the other. " Here is an explanation of that statement, given by one of our contemporary Major Scholars, Shaykh Allaamah Ahmed ibn Yahya an-Najmee: "Know that Islam is the Sunnah, and the Sunnah is Islam." How is this possible? It means that the correct Islam is the Sunnah, so the one who remains steadfast upon the Sunnah and implements it then surely he has implemented Islam. , and the one who deviates from the Sunnah and departs towards the left or the right then surely he has failed to implement the correct Islam due to his deviation. But know that this departure is divided into two categories: 1. Total departure, where the person disbelieves, and his is judged upon as having left Islam in totality. 2. Partial departure, where the person does not disbelieve and his is not considered to be an apostate or as having left Islam. However, his Islam is deficient depending upon the extent of his departure, whether that departure is something small or great. What is the proof for that which we mentioned? The proof is the hadeeth (which informs) of the splitting of the nations, and it is the saying of the Prophet: "The Jews split into seventy one sects and the Christians split into seventy two sects and my Ummah will split into seventy three sects, all of which are in the Fire except one (sect)." They asked, "And how are they, O Messenger of Allah?" - meaning which is that one (sect), and who are from its people that will be saved from the Fire - He replied, "They are those who are upon that which I and my Companions are upon."

So verily the Muslims - from the first generation - had a great concern for memorization of the chains of narration in their Revelation from the Book and the Sunnah, the like of which no nation from before them had. So they memorized the Qur`aan, and they reported from the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) frequently, sentence by sentence, and word by word, and letter by letter. They preserved it in their chests, and they confirmed it upon pages of their writings, and they authored books about it with exhaustive detail. They also memorized much about their Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), everyone of his statements or actions or conditions. He was a teacher from his Lord, and an explainer of His Revelation, and a commander of the establishment of His Religion. All of his (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) statements and actions and conditions are an explanation of the Qur`aan. He is the infallible Messenger and the good example. Allaah the Exalted says in describing him: "He does not speak from desire. Verily it is not but Revelation revealed to him." [sooratun Najm 53:3-4] Allaah says: "And We revealed to you the Reminder for you to explain to the people what has been revealed to them, in the hopes that they may become thoughtful." [sooratun Nahl 16:44] Allaah also says: "Indeed there is a good example for you in the Messenger of Allaah." [sooratul Ahzaab 33:21] 'Abdullaah Ibn 'Umar Ibnul 'Aas used to write everything he heard from the Messenger of Allaah, so the Quraysh forbade him from that and it was mentioned to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam). So he said: "Write. So by the One in Whose Hand my soul is, nothing emanates from me except truth." [2] The Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) commanded the Muslims in the farewell pilgrimage to teach about him as a general command. So he said: "So let the one who is present teach the one who is absent. So it may be that the one who is being taught may be more heedful than him." [3] He also said: "So let the one who is present teach the one who is absent, for the one who taught may be more heedful than the one who heard directly." [4] So the Muslims understood that all this was obligatory upon them. They memorized everything about the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and they acted upon that, and they went to great lengths to fulfill this trust, and they related hadeeths from him; either as well known (mashhoor), or with authentically established chains of narrations. According to the scholars, this is named an authentic hadeeth (hadeeth saheeh) or a good hadeeth (hadeeth hasan).