The Quran and the Hadith are the two sides of the same coin. The hadith is the words of the Prophet explaining in full detail the words of the all mighty. They are insaprateple, to seperate them is a huge error. Dude, HOW WILL YOU SAY THAT THE HADITH ARE THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET? MAY ALLAH GUIDE YOU, BUT THAT IS THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTION I HAVE EVER HEARD FROM A MUSLIM. you seriously need a study on the progress of Islam and the history of hadith collection. The hadith cannot be said to be the words of the Prophet, they were collected and gathered 200 years after his death. And if you check credible sources on the biograpy of the prophet, you will know that he refused to have his sayings written down so that it would not replace the Quran. All through the reign of the Khaliphs, Abu Baker, Omar, Ali and even Uthman you will find that the written sayings of the prophet were forbidden. don't be deluded by uneducated scholars, the collection of hadith were influenced by all sorts cultural, and religious confusion steming from the diverse communities of muslims, pagans, and jews and Christains alike.

Salam Brother Nur, This was the first i got a chance to see your response to my polygamy thread. Thanks for the all the feedback, i understand your position regarding the state of polygamy in Islam. However, i disagree with you on numerous points: 1) polygamy IS restricted in Islam, Allah allows polygamy on condition. Yes while polygamy was not restriced before islam came, but It became resticted by these verses of the Quran: [4.3] And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. with all due respect brother Nur, the Quranic verses above on polygamy are in context to dealing justly with orphans of war, and other such societal misfortunes. And even as Such Allah is clear that monogamy is the more proper "then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course". Thus, polygamy is restricted in islam. 2) NO Woman can happly share her husband! thats just the truth. I will personally say, coming from a polygamous family, that polygamy is difficult not just for the wife, but for the children as well. In this day and age, polygamy has no place in islam, and in any society. A certain sheikh of the mosque in my community married a second wife, he did not tell his first wife, and when she found out in an insulting matter, she was ill for months. Being such a house ridden wife of four kids, she was forced to remain in this unhappy state, she never consented to this polyagmous marriage, and even if she tried to refute it, these extreme muslim fanatics around her would accuse her of denying islamic ways of life. A polygamous marriage is an awful thing, i wish it on no women. Many of these men who embrace their right topolygamy often forget the basic foundations of being a muslim such being honest, and not hurting others. Allah put a restriction on polyamy and those who practice it out of abuse will certainly suffer for their actions. Allah has allowed polygamy only where it is necessary, and when that time comes none shall question the purpose of this divine law, it is only when we subject polygamy on societies that cannot support such ideologies that we see it as primitive, cruel and outdated. May Allah guide us ALL.

When he was arrested last month he was found to be carrying a bible and charged with rejecting Islam which is punishable by death in Afghanistan. Unbelievable, How is it possible to charge a man with " rejecting Islam" in a mixed religious country not ruled or governed by muslims? ....rejecting Islam is not punishable by death, we can not be the judge of people's faith, the apostate laws in Shariah apply to times of opression, but not in peace, and especially not to alone individuals practicing peacefully and privately in his own home...It is between Allah and him.

=haseena=Certainly the hadiths go hand in hand with the quran. The men who wrote them? How much do we actually know about them, and the different methods they used when collecting these ahadiths? If we just look at bukhari, he used to perform so many suppligatory prayers, or prayers of guidance (istikhara) when submitting just an ahadith, and he if I remember correctly travelled for a day or so, and when he reached the destination where the man he was supposed to ask for a certain hadith was, he saw that man double-dealing with his animal (I think the animal was a donkey), bukhari turned did not even stay, same thing with another man he was supposed to take an ahadith from he saw him eating outside and bukhari dismissed him. Are you saying because Bukhari practiceed bizaare rituals before collection we should consider him holy good, and show our appreciation for his tedious work by proclaiming our unfettered obedience to his work?...I disgree with you my good sister. This "science of hadith collecting" you refer to means that if a hadith is contrary to islamic principles we lose it or upon consenus from majority we keep it...It seems very faulty to me that when a collectors of hadith have been removed several times because of inconsistency, that we still keep other weak hadith from these very collectors.But I see your point in the historical value of arab custom which is very well detailed in hadith, but other than that the hadith have little if any faith related purposes...that is my opinion, i mean i don't know what the prophet did, if Allah wanted us to know those meticulus detail of the sunnah, it would have been perserved in more valuable form than hearsay collections by men. Remember Allah is never lost for words,This faith was complete before the Prophet died and before Bukhari was ever concieved by his mother.

By just not "agreeing" with an ahadith, seeing some ahadiths as ridiculing the “faith†or Islamic behaviour or whatever the reasons maybe, does not really cut it. Especially to say an a hadith is fabricated we surely must look at the science of hadith collecting and the different stages within the clarifications of ahadiths, to determine whether an ahadith is fabricated or not. There are to my knowledge some ahadiths in the sunnan Bukhari (anyone do correct me if I am wrong here) that may be weak or fabricated but they are very limited, and to claim that which you just did above, you need to bring your proof, look at the chain, the narrators etc. and nothing else. Why doesn't it "cut it" to disagree and dismiss any hadith that are contradicting the Word of Allah? why shouldn't I question sources of faith that riddicule the personality and integrity of the holy Prophet? as muslims it is our outmost duty to guard the integrity of our faith, why should we be burdened with hadiths that seriously damage the principles being taught in Allah's holy book. It is absurd that we should treat works collected by men as divine law. the reality is, there are all sorts hadiths and imam said so and so which is taken like it is Allah's word by some people. "We went out with Allah's messenger for the Ghazwa (attack upon) Banu Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus we said "How can we do coitus interruptus without asking Allah's messenger while he is present among us?" Now looking at this hadith, i wonder why would a married muslim person would find it hard to practice celibacy?..i mean where is the modesty the prophet was teaching? bottomline is, I will not accept anything blatantly riddiculing my faith. NO one ever said that Bukhari or muslim or Imam this or that were exempt from critcism, they were men and what they wrote is subject to reason, scrutiny and the principles of the islamic faith.

AbdulNoor= When shariah is mentioned people talk about cutting hands, or stoning the adulterer, and how there is many interpretations ect. All this has been unanimously mentioned by our scholars, so talk to knowledgeable people, I would relate it but I fear that I make a mistake due to lack of knowledge. first, thank you brother for your lengthy clarification. Second, I totally agree with your advice to seek more knowlegde in matters that seem disputed in islam. However, i will add that shariah does differ from the quran in few areas. It is troubling sometimes that stoning is found no where in the quran....also in the Bible, Jesus comes to condemn the old jewish practice of stoning. In such a case, it possible that the muslim ummah may have problems with the absolute validity of the Shariah Law. Is Shariah divine law? that is disputed. Islam is for all times, as is the Divine law. Lets not our limited knowledge make us transgress against ourselves, the Plan of Allah will come to pass-as human beings we just think about the present, forget about the past, and let the present predict the future. Islam today largely consists of other sources of knowlegde, it is not all divine Law. To say that islam is divine law would mean all aspects of islam is dictated by the Kitab thus equal to Divine law, but this is not the case.

Socod_badne = With the impressive advances in modern medicine, we nomads shouldn't fret too much over FGM. Certainly it isn't too far-fetched to envisage a day when chopped off pieces are effortlessly attached back in place or artificially grown and slapped on Are you saying we should ignore such an islamicaly unsound practice? and do you assume every poor girl from a badiye village is gonna be able to afford the thousands of dollars required to reverse the damage caused by FGM?....access to medical surgery is a privilege, even in Western countries like the US.

Socod_badne= Help me with something. This Iraqi Shia dude tells me that in Islam woman's testimony is worth half that of a man. Something I already knew but he goes on to say that in instances of adultry where you need 4 witnesses, where only women witnesses are available you'll need 8. Is that true. Flipmode, the great Islamic luminary, help this brother dude. The four witnesses are required for adultry, not eight! if four women are present then its four women, if a mix of men and women, then they are four. The only time the rule of two women for every one male witness is allowed is for debt contracts( business), because women were less skilled in those matters. Remember Allah is always clear, the ayats concerning adultry and debt contracts are seperate. And Allah makes distinction when he refers to the number of witnesses for each case. witnesses For Debt contracts: In debt contracts Allah is clear, there is always detail where it is necessary. [ [2.282] O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony Witnesses For Adultry: 4.15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them In the arabic, Allah refers to the adultry witnesses in plural form meaning four witnesses either females or males or mix.

4.3] And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess" Johnny, "what your right hands possess" has been through serious scholarly debate in Islamic schools. "what your right hands possess" has been intreperated as those under your care, who are permitted to you in marriage. Now, this has meaning under the context of the war prisoners, and female widows being taken care of by the Prophet and his companions. When many of the Prophet's soldiers went to war, they lost their lives and the Prophet took it upon himself and those surviving companions to take care of widows and orphans. Now, many questionable hadiths make it seem like female prisoners and their slaves were like booty to be shared around and enjoyed by those who captured them, But I will never believe that to be true. Allah does not forget the vulnerable, and especialy not while his message is still being recieved by the Prophet. any hadiths especially such as those discussing slave woman... Bukhari: Vol. 5-#459 (This Hadith is similar to the above. However, additional details are added). Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: "I entered the mosque and saw Abu Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu said, "We went out with Allah's messenger for the Ghazwa (attack upon) Banu Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus we said "How can we do coitus interruptus without asking Allah's messenger while he is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said "It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."" are obviously fabricated...it is an insult for muslims to associate such inhumane discussions and behaviour with the Prophet of Allah. First, sex outside of marriage be it slave girl or free woman is prohibited in islam. Second, the prophet is known for compassion for slaves for he had deep relationship with the slave woman who raised him. Also, Allah does not contradict himself, He says [24.33] And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful" Bukhari's hadiths seem to be chronicling unIslamic behaviour and many islamphoebes are always quick to discredit the Prophets humanist characteristics thanks to some of these widely accepted hadiths.

Castro, what gives dude?....is strict opinion such as I wrote above not allowed in this place.lol P.S did the old Cuban gain some weight?, he looks rather chubby in your avater .

True, the problem is not with Quran or Islam. IF Islam, is the practice of All muslims which stands for its definition, than does the fault not lie with Islam? Yes, the problem does lie with Islam, it plagues the muslim Ummah. The Status of women has been abused by general scholars and those who authorate Islam. It is a grave myth if you think that womens inequality and other issues are not an islamic fault. let me make it clear, the Quran is the main source of Islam, and whatever injustice any group in islam, say slaves and women faced in Islamic practice and societies was never ordained by Allah and not justified in the quran, and thus it is an Error in the practice of Islam, and thus the fault lies with Islam as faith until we correct it As Allah has instructed. Islam is perfect as Allah described it in his holy book, But is also imperfect as we practice it. May Allah guide Us all.

I wonder why some of you nomads think there is an epidemic Somali problem with Somali girls whooring themselves to other black races?....but Let us be honest to the subject matter at hand, FGM is a pagan practice, Islam does allow the mutilation of the human body when it is medically unnecessary, and damaging to the female in all aspects. The fact that some of you are trying to justify this as "sunnah" of some sort is uneducated and unislamic. Yes, Somalis have few backward African traditions they practice, but as Muslims we should strive to become better than the non-believers, and not join them in their devious practices. It is possible that some Western bound Somalis are facing problems with teaching their daughters Islamic modesty and respect for themselves but there should be no reason why a Muslim person should consider FGM as a possible method of deterrence. FGM is haram by all means in Islam. It is proper education and religious principles that teaches girls to have modesty and self-respect. May Allah guide us All.

Am I liberated by Western culture and feminsim? No... Am I liberted by Islamic practice and culture? No. Liberation to the modern women is a bitter sweet taste, and a double edged sword. The modern women in Western societies is free, and competent enough to compete at all levels with her male counterparts. She has the desires to be wife, mother and commander of great ships. But her liberation has come with a heavy price to pay, she has had to sell herself to reach the top, and when she gets there she finds herself unsatisfied, and still burdened by societal expectations to fulfill her female role in life. She is always disadvantaged and quick to compromise all. Liberation of the modern Western woman is commercial and a glittering one at the surface, but deep within, it has made her load heavier. Liberation of the Islamic woman lies written in the pages of the Quran where Allah has lifted the pre-islam burdens on the female gender 1400 years ago. But it remains there silent, and unminded by the general Muslim societies. The liberated Islamic woman is still waiting for her cheque of liberation. She has stood waiting for it for thousands of years. The Prophet, the guardian of her status has long gone, and now her societal status has slipped far back to pre-Islamic era, she has become the scapegoat for those who guard not their Islamic modesty. Islamically run states have isolated her, made their primary objective is to breed the control and manipulation of their women. And Islam in this light has not succeeded; it has weakened the role and status of women, and thus weakened the whole Muslim ummah. Thus, the liberation of the Islamic women is an empty promise, and only real because Allah has guaranteed it to them in his holy book.

Thank you Castro for the above link. This article is indeed interesting;But a weak defensive article on the position of polygamy in the Islamic faith. Surely, the need for polygamy was never in question, both western societies and Islamic societies know that polygamy in history was necessary and surely it will be useful when drastic changes in the future influence the balance in the numbers of the genders. My question above was addressing why the loose interpretations of the polygamy verses in the Quran? …Allah Almighty is never lost for words, Allah only mentions polygamy when he is referring to doing justice and managing the affairs orphans and widows. But Even then, Allah discourages the practice, saying that "then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper". Allah is always clear, when he refers to normal marriage; Allah Almighty is clear of monogamy as the norm, “more proper†system of marriage. In Verse (4:20), allah says: “you wish to marry another wife, in place of your present wife, and you had given any of them a great deal, you shall not take back anything you had given her. Would you take it fraudulently, maliciously, and sinfully?†Here, Allah is clear, when discussing divorce, and the replacement of wife. Monogamy is the norm, and those who choose to practice polygamy are unjustified except where Allah has allowed it with strict conditions. Emotional and psychological distress of polygamy are caused where the laws of Allah are abused. And those who practice injustice will not find peace in their actions, and thus even What Allah has ordain for them lawful becomes a burden when they have abused it for their own means of fullfillment and dominance over weaker individuals. Feminists may object to this male right by insisting that women should also be able to practice polygamy. However, a woman marrying four husbands would only increase the problem of surplus women. Furthermore, no child would accept his or her mother identifying the father by the “eeny meeny miney mo†method. The question which remains is, “If God is good and wishes good for His creatures, why did he legislate something which would be harmful to most women?†Divine legislation looks at the society as a whole seeking to maximize benefit. If a certain legislation benefits the majority of the society and causes some emotional harm to a minority, the general welfare of society is given precedence I find this piece of the article rather pathetic, the divine legislation especially polygamy only causes emotional harm where it abused in societies as we have today, where Muslim women are subjected to polygamous marriages without their consent and where population numbers of women and men are near equal and thus polygamy is socially and economically unjustified. Allah does not place a burden on anyone for the gain of others. There is point in time where women may feel the emotional and societal need to form polygamous marriages. In this case, abolishing polygamy would be a form of injustice to those women who cannot find a male and wish to marry and reproduce. Thus, Allah is kind, and so he has allowed polygamy to curb such distress to women in times like these. Furthermore, the author's above defense that polygamy is justified in modern Muslim societies because it serves as positive alternative for adulterous marriages and high divorce rates in Western societies is unsound and islamically a weak grasp of the Islamic way of life. We as Muslims should not use the ugly societal norms of western societies to justify our weak deviance from the laws and instructions of Allah. Allah has allowed polygamy only where it necessary, and when that time comes none shall question the purpose of this divine law, it is only when we subject polygamy on societies that cannot support such ideologies that we see it as primitive, cruel and outdated. May Allah guide us ALL.

Asalamu Alaykum, Allah says in Surah alnisa [4.3] And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.] now, I have a question concerning islamic polygamy, and the context in which it is permitted in the Quran. From my understanding of the Arabic language, the polygamy discussed in the quran is in context with the treatment of orphans and widows. Furthermore, From the Prophet we learn that Other than marrying Aisha, and HafsaH, the Prophet married widowed mothers of orphans. So my question is, if the Quran places such strict limitations on the practice of polygamy, then why do we find it so widely abused in our societies where it is highly unnecessary?