I know, as you would probably read for yourself in this very thread Nevertheless I am still interested to hear what you have to say.

Somewhat, but I am determined! Safferz I would love to hear your take on these Hadiths?

I have a few more Hadiths that I would like to share with you all. I have included the sources of all of them in the accepted books of Islamic Sunna, namely the two Sahih book of Muslim and Bukhari. You can google each and everyone to authenticate so please have no doubt that the prophet of Islam did indeed say these. In keeping with the topic at hand, I tried to present the Hadiths that relate to scientific findings by the Nabi, or descriptions of phenomena that we can easily understand today but may have seemed quite intimidated to an arab bedouin a thousand years ago. -The prophet claims that no one can possibly know the gender of a baby before its born, and when it will rain. It might have been impossible when he was alive but we have technologies today that will allow us to know both. Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "Keys of the unseen knowledge are five which nobody knows but Allah . . . nobody knows what will happen tomorrow; nobody knows what is in the womb; nobody knows what he will gain tomorrow; nobody knows at what place he will die; and nobody knows when it will rain." Sahih Bukhari 2:17:149 ----- -The prophet claims that Satan sleeps daily inside our noses (of all places!) Abu Huraira reported: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. When any one of you awakes up from sleep and performs ablution, he must clean his nose three times, for the devil spends the night in the interior of his nose. Sahih Muslim 2:462 ----- -The beloved prophet is an expert on the sexual norms of monkeys Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them. Sahih Bukhari 5:58:188 ----- -The prophet commenting on the daily movement of the sun (as opposed to the earth orbiting the sun): Narrated Abu Dhar: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself (way sujuudda)underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. Sahih Bukhari 4:54:421 Please note that all of the above is the documented wisdom of the beloved prophet, as said above you can look it all up yourself. How can you expect any new findings of value from muslim Scientists who believe in all of the above? I say this because believing in any of this requires you putting your mind on standby for the rest of your life. Thanks for all of the encouragement

Thats out of topic, sorry, no answer to that

Lets start a new page If you have just stumbled upon this page, we are discussing this Hadith: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If a fly falls into the drink of any one of you, he should dunk it all the way in and then remove it, because on one if its wings is disease and on the other is its cure.” [sahîh al-Bukhârî (3320, 5782)] Apophis;991243 wrote: Why should things not be "acceptable in this day and age"? What's so special about "this day and age"?. Scientific advancement sxb, I am still interested to hear your opinion btw. For those of you who are wondering about this fly dunking in drinks practice please watch the video below, where this muslim guy on TV attempts to 'xayasiis' this Hadith to everyday muslims claiming that the extracts from wings of Flies does indeed cure AIDS LOL It is actually hilarious to watch! Its only ten minutes so check it out It also happen to have other Sahih Hadiths that are very very strange indeed! Find in that video: - The science determining the sex of the child - Satan urinating in your ears and many more... Its very funny.

Why should I go and discuss these issues with Arabs that I do not care about, you must understand that I am not wanting to convert you as you have been clearly brainwashed expertly. This is an open platform for intelligent (I hope) discussion so you actually have only two choices here, either partake or kindly observe from the sidelines. And as to whether I have substantiated my discussion here with you or not, I guess we can leave it for other members to decide

Khayr;991236 wrote: ha ha, I see offbase gets lonely when no one responds to him. When DoctorK ignored you for an hour and half, you posted again more litter. What an attention seeker! DoctorKenney, Offbase is a bit illiterate. He is a product of his own logic. Brother Khayr, I see you cheerleading for DrKenny now, where were you when I had him in that pinch earlier? He actually wrote pleading for your help specifically: DoctorKenney;990988 wrote: If Khayr or MagicBird or someone else wants to add to my points, by all means do so You left him out to dry man, not cool

Apophis;991234 wrote: Maybe this is the reason the hyper clean West have very high rates of immune system problems compared to non Western places where flies on food is an everyday thing which, starting from infancy, helps the immune system become familiar with all kinds of diseases etc. In Africa I have found people who were healthier than Western propaganda has lead me to believe. The problem with scientism is one tends to always think without nuances. The 'hyper clean West' and its hygienic and medical advancement is the reason behind the drastic fall in infant mortality rates and pretty much every medical indication there is. I agree that if taken to the extreme it could result in immune system deficiencies laakin you can not deny good hygiene is the basis of modern understanding of disease prevention. What do you personally think about the Hadith ordering muslims to dunk flies Adophis? Do you think it is acceptable in this day and age? I am interested to hear your views on this and previously discussed matters.

DoctorKenney;991232 wrote: LOOL You see what he's doing here? He's jumping into a brand-new topic without properly addressing any of the previous topics. He couldn't respond to any of my points, yet he's quick to jump into a brand-new topic against Islam. We can go all day, we can keep doing this, and it'll take months before we even get close to finishing this sort of conversation. And I've made more posts on Somalia Online in the past week than I've ever had in the last 1.5 years I've been here. Again, and I'm gonna stress this to everyone reading this: This is not an Islamic Forum. This is a Somali forum, composed largely of Somali Muslims, but SomaliaOnline is mainly focused on Somali issues. Any of the questions you have against Islam can be addressed properly if you go to the proper Islamic forums regarding it. There are plenty of brothers and sisters who are more than happy to answer any of your questions on these forums. There are entire websites, and entire books about this sort of stuff. I've refuted this clown several times here, but I'm only one man. And I will get exhausted if I spend every waking moment browsing this forum, responding to his silly points. Yesterday, I actually had to stop on the sidewalk, pull out my phone, log into this forum through my 3G data plan, and respond to this clown while standing in the middle of the street. There's a reason why AllYourBase doesn't register on Islamic Forums and pose his questions. Because he knows that there are thousands of brothers who would demolish him and every single one of his arguments. I'm a member of one of these forums myself, but I'm a total amateur compared to these knowledgeable Muslims. I don't even post anything due to my extreme lack of knowledge, compared to these brothers and sisters. Don't let this deceptive clown mislead you from the proper way of thinking. He wants to mislead those from the Way of Allah because he knows he's dealing with Somalis on this forum, who are rather inexperienced with these sorts of arguments, and don't know as much about Islam as they should. If you have any questions regarding your cellphone, you go to specific technology forums designed to answer questions on cellphones. If you have questions about universities, then you go to specific forums designed to answer questions on universities. And if you have questions about Islam, then you go to the proper forums regarding it. But this type of stuff is silly. His arguments are amateur, and there really isn't any use in a Muslim justifying himself to someone who can't even address simple arguments. What I have said before and you do not seem to comprehend is that I do not care for Islamic forums, as I am not obliged to them. I care about my people (read: Somalis) and their view of the world. This is precisely why I am here, to discuss these matters with my people and attempt to clear out all of your Wahabi smoke. We have established before that you get your understanding of life by way of Islam and via these guys: And you seem very protective of their ideas and the understanding of life provided by a single man from the Arabian deserts. My point is that all of this is alien to us as Somalis. The increase ilk in the last 20 years is due to the fact that Arabs are extending their influence on us due to our current state of weakness. This is unacceptable to me and many Somalis found here and elsewhere. I see that you have completely avoided answering the fly dunking matter, which is fine by me, I shall continue to list these anomalies for the benefit of other members. You seem to imply that you are burdened with answering each and everyone of my posts when no one is forcing you to do so If you want you can take part of this discussion and if you do not then you can also observe from afar. There is no compulsion in this discussion (see what I did there? ) So do you dunk flies into your drink sxb? Its sunnah you know

OKAY, MOVING ON! I just wanted to mention yet an other pseudoscience performed by the Muslims in accordance to the guidelines of the Prophet Mohamed, this is the science of dunking flies (dukhsi) into one's drink, read this with me: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “If a fly falls into the drink of any one of you, he should dunk it all the way in and then remove it, because on one if its wings is disease and on the other is its cure.” [sahîh al-Bukhârî (3320, 5782)] Can anyone here make heads or tails of this? I really wander what sort of lame excuse would the dear DrKenny provide this time Now supposedly this is all divine revelation as every muslim must believe that the prophet is always guided by the Almighty Allah in all he says and all that he does. How can any soul living in the 21st century and believing that on one wing of a fly lies disease whilst on the other is its cure, how could they go out in this world and produce anything of scientific importance? Why would a prophet guided by the all knowing god waste his time on the matters fo suckling of grown man, camel urine or what to do in the emergency of a fly landing in your drink, its all so trivial and speaks of a somewhat simple mind. Bal iiga jawaaba taas? Is it not clear by now that these sayings are all an attempt by a medieval man to describe and make sense of his surroundings? I actually think that Mohamed was quite intelligent for his time and he surely was a charming man. Laakin how can you bring yourself to believe in all of the above in this day and age? Some of you have pmed me asking my stance on the whole thing which I thought was clear from my writing. There are aspects of it that go with our modern sensibilities today, like the traditional understanding of family and how to stay close to your parents and such, these are all very nice aspects and you do not need to be a muslim to practice that. But all the mythology and all that goes against our current understanding of the world must be discredited and left in the book for historic purposes but not to be practiced today.

Watching a movie is xaaraan. What is brother Khayr and rest of ikhwa gonna think about you?

Stop trying to trivialise this. It can be seen by everyone that the Nabi of mercy actually took part in torturing these men. He ordered for them to have their eyes taken, and have their limbs cut off and for them to be placed in the hot dessert sun asking for water and given it. If we are lead to believe the 'tit for tat' understanding of justice then he would have just killed them you see. But he had to resort to this thuggish punishment as means of making an example of these bedouins, which again could be understood if he was the head of a bandits but not a holy prophet from a god. Please note that up until DrKenny is actually not disputing any fact that I am bringing. From the weird understanding of his favourite Sheikhs of astronomy based on their understanding of the Quran, to the weird practice of suckling of grown men, to the drinking of camel's urine. He is not disputing any of that, he is merely providing explanation and excuses to these vile concepts. DrKenny sxb, weligaa macabtay kadida geela? How does it taste?

Show me where your prophet killed them. He took their eyes and limbs and left them in the desert. Do you call that tit for tit? Why did he not kill them like they killed his shepherds? They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them Its torture sxb, he went a step beyond what they allegedly did.

If you would like other examples of barbarity from Hadith check this out: It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them. [i.e. pagan]. Sahih Muslim Hadith no 4321. Notice it includes children Anyways, I digress!

DoctorKenney;991188 wrote: When we say Islam does away with clergy and middlemen, we are talking about purposes of worship and practising your religion. If you worship, worship Allah. If you seek Help, seek Help from Allah. If you seek forgiveness, seek forgiveness from Allah. We are not like the Catholics who go to some Priest who "forgives" them of their sins. We are not like other religions which ask their clergy to "speak to God" for them. But when it comes to knowledge, we ask those who are experts in knowledge. People who have studied Islam for years, and have books on every single Islamic topic conceivable, complete with references from the Quran and the Sunnah as well as the consensus of scholars. And there are literally thousands of scholars throughout history who have attained high levels of knowledge regarding Islam P.S. Read the article that I copied and pasted, and read the bolded parts which I underlined, which agreed with my arguments. The Questions itself were irrelevant, and that is why I omitted them. I was only interested in the bolded hadith references. And I posted the link for all to see P.S.S Respond to my points AllYourBase. I'm not gonna tolerate your deception and lies on this thread. Could your God not have made islam simpler to understand for everyone without the need for these 'caalims'? Also chill out, we are having a discussion here, you can 'not-tolorate' me all you want, what are you gonna do? Miyaad i habaari?

DoctorKenney;991183 wrote: AllYourBase. I read your post, and you completely ignored my points. So I'm gonna copy/paste what I wrote before: But AllYourBase needs to provide proofs for the following: 1. That the Prophet's punishment of these men was excessive, barbaric and unjust . He needs to provide objective evidence with strong foundations. I don't want to hear any of his flimsy personal opinions. 3. That the prescription of camel urine mixed with camel milk harmed these Bedouin men and was counter-productive when it came to healing them. He needs to provide actual Hadiths which back his points up. I'm not gonna tolerate him changing the topic and going off on a tangent. Give me evidences which back up your point Answer each one of the questions I posed, instead of your ridiculous insults and your sarcastic remarks. Prove your assertions with worthy evidence, and don't back out of it with your immature rhetoric. I'm waiting P.S. Anyone can see I responded to this clown's posts in thorough detail, but yet he doesn't have the ability to answer my questions or substantiate any of his points. This is embarrassing for him and his kind As I said before the barbaric acts by the prophet described above are out of topic, but in the interests of members that may be curious to hear my answers and just to show DrKenny goodwill by leading by example I will answer you. But if I do I am expecting an answer to my questions as well, I hope I am being fair here. I have joined questions 1 and 2 as they are repeating the same thing. 1- The evidence of the barbarity of what your prophet had ordered is very clear in the very Hadith that I posted. We have a group of men who stole from the prophet and killed his shepherds, that act is very barbaric and criminal on their part. But it holds that what your prophet ordered upon them was equally barbaric and criminal. In this matter they were both equal in their actions so if you think them killing the poor shephard was vile then what your prophet did was just the same. Now where does the divine come into play, they could be excused for their ill ways but what excuse would you give a man who claims to be directly connected to the divine? In fact, what he did was even worse because he did not kill them straight away, lets read the Hadith again: Narrated Abu Qilaba: "Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)" So for their punishment he went one step further as he: A- Cut their hands and feet. B- He branded their eyes with hot iron!! C- He placed them with no arms or feet in the Harra desert, and when they would ask for water no water was given. This is not just killing, it is torture! And your claims of his punishment to them being of equal standing to their crimes is rendered mute. 3- With regards to me providing a Hadith to say that the bedouins were in fact not healed is absurd. As a muslim you claim that in your religion that camels urine could be drank to cure illness, the burden of proof lies on your shoulders sxb. Why do I need to both bring up your claim regarding the camel urine and to counter is as well? Dont be ******. I bring this up as something that is vile to human sensibilities, its disgusting and speaks of a very simple view of the world. Ask yourself why it was the camel's urine specifically and not the horse for instance? Why it was the camel and not the Llama? Because Mohamed was not aware of an animal called Llama so he would use things that were from his immediate surroundings. I hope that is clear. Now please man up and answer these questions to close that chapter of the discussion: 1- Do you dispute the fact that the prophet of Islam order a woman to breastfeed a grown man with a beard despite her exclamation? 2- Do you dispute that his wife, the beloved Aisha continued the practice to allow men not related to her access to her quarters? 3- Do you dispute the fact that your own Sheikhs, Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albaani are supporters of this particular ruling and its existance? 4- Do you have any Sahih hadiths that support your view of the use of a cup in this weird ritual? [optional] 5- What is your personal opinion on this practice? Beyond these religious texts, what is your personal view on this? What was the need that forced the prophet to make such bizarre rulings? [optional] Much love ya akhi

Are you saying that the Quran and the books of Muslim and Albukhari are not enough for people to learn about their religion? Are you actually saying that people can not discuss the rulings of Islam based only on the Quran and the Sahih Sunna? Because this is huge sxb! I thought the biggest difference between Islam and other religions is the fact that Islam claims to do away with clergy and middlemen altogether, but apparently this is not the case! Also if you want to speak of deception and ingenuity, it was you who was caught red handed in front of the entirety of this forum copying from irrelevant websites and omitting the parts you did not want to show the members here, you were caught sxb, way kugu caddahay

Let me get this, you want me to answer you when you have avoided answering my questions countless times? Am I getting this right?

Guje;991176 wrote: Yeah, but what does science say about the actual benefits of camel urine ?? it could be beneficial you never know, the ancients could have stumbled upon it.... human urine is drunk by some people as health tonic even now. so i don't think making this an issue will work either. You could make headway if you concentrated on the larger philosophical issues rather than trivial matters like adult suckling and camel urine. your reasoning and logic is fine otherwise but it to good use. Thats what is strange about it, human urine is a less concentrated form than that of a camel's, so it would then hold that, islamically speaking, drinking one's urine is also permissible. What do you think brother DrKenny? We will come to the larger issues, I am just starting with some of the practices relating to science and Islam, that hole suckling issue was a massive digression. We will get to the larger concepts soon inshallah.

DrKenny has the time to write essay upon essay of irrelevant copy and paste material yet he still refuses to answer my basic 5 questions from the previous discussion, I just want this to be noted Notice how he is constantly attempting to normalise these really vile and bizarre practices and always finding excuses like: 1- Oh no, the grown-***, bearded man drank the human milk out of a cup, there was no mouth-breast contact so its okay 2- Oh no, my beloved prophet tortured those men because they killed and stole from a shepherd, so its okay 3- Oh no, drinking camel urine is totally normal, and it is on you to bring evidence stating otherwise I have not commented on the medical benefits (or lack of) of the kaadi of geela, I am just stating what your prophet ordered his followers to do and what is today perceived as scientific by your ilk. I am pointing out the level with which some are willing to shut down their faculty of reason, of what is acceptable or what is not. AllYourBase posting here, is disingenuous and should not be tolerated, mainly because it distracts some of the Somalis here (who aren't very experienced in dealing with anti-Islamic polemics) and confuses them regarding their religion How can I confuse anyone in the age of GOOGLE? And what do you have to hide anyway? I thought the message of Allah was universal with no need for middlemen between a layperson and the Quran and Sunnah Isdeji sxb, and go drink some kaadi latte This man would have us believe that the Noble Prophet was a pacifist, when that's not what he was. He fought, and he treated bandits and criminals the way they deserved to be treated. If you would like us to open an other discussion on the well documented barbaric acts of your prophet I am more than happy to do so, but this discussion relates to SCIENCE and ISLAM.

You will have an upset stomach for the first few days , persevere and you'll have the best time of your life.

Guje;991131 wrote: First of all it was double post and this site is horrible when you hit submit you have to wait 30 seconds and when you refresh you find a double post. :mad: I have no particular opinion but i agree with some of your points esp the proof hadiths but i also see dr kenny point in that its not a known tradition anywhere in islam so you can't pin him on this. hence its a draw, lets move on. I know! I am having these problems myself. My point Guje was not whether or not this was a widely practiced tradition today, I tried to prove that it was part and parcel of the religion and I tried to provide as much evidence as possible. Glad you accept the Hadiths I have provided, and please note I have only used Sheikhs that DrKenny named in his earlier post, and Hadiths that are agreed upon to be Sahih. And in the spirit of this thread (i.e. science and Islam) let me stress that I am merely scratching the very surface here and if you dig deeper in the literature you will find even more bizarre rulings by the prophet, who prescribed camel urine as medicine to bunch of bedouins! He ordered grown men drink kaadida geela, and here is the evidence below: Narrated Abu Qilaba: "Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)" Now we can not talk about that barbaric punishment described above as its out of confines of this topic. But it is documented that the prophet did indeed preach the drinking of camel's milk, a practice that is performed by many muslims today as can seen here: http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/drinking-camel-urine-in-yemen-fob-000300-v20n8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrIKcM-_0r8 And if you have more time please read the sorry *** explanation that this website has, and all the 'research' that was done on the subject. http://www.answering-christianity.com/urine.htm Now how do you expect any form of scientific advancement from someone who believes that this sort of behaviour is normal. I totally understand if the vast majority of nomads did not hear about this before, we are all force fed only parts of the religion that our parents are aware of, which for the most part is very little actually. The purpose of me bring these rulings out is for you to questions what has been passed down to you as holy and divine, and see it for what it really is.

I get it but do you have an opinion on what was discussed beyond it being interesting? Waar dadkan su'al kajawabi karayn xagee lagakeenay lol

Its a minor point really but its one that is well documented, and it just goes to show who DrKenny's role models are and what weird practices they got up to. I do agree we have dwelled on it for quite a bit but our beloved brother refuses to answer my questions, wallahi they are really simple, what do you think Guje?

HE KEEPS SAYING I ANSWERED :D Dude, would you like die if you answered the questions specifically? This is turning to a weird comical situation. Please answer the questions below: 1- Do you dispute the fact that the prophet of Islam ordered a woman to breastfeed a grown man with a beard despite her exclamation? 1.5- Did the prophet of Islam indicate the practicalities of such breastfeeding? 2- Do you dispute that his wife, the beloved Aisha continued the practice to allow men not related to her access to her quarters? 3- Do you dispute the fact that your own Sheikhs, Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albaani are supporters of this particular ruling and its existence? 4- Do you have any Sahih hadiths that support your view of the use of a cup in this weird ritual? [optional] 5- What is your personal opinion on this practice? Beyond these religious texts, what is your personal view on this? What was the need that forced the prophet to make such bizarre rulings? The questions are open to brother Khayr or any other member of that crew