DoctorKenney;991785 wrote: Tallaabo....instead of addressing these arguments directly in an endless back-and-forth discussion that bears no fruit. Just leave it. You're not knowledgeable enough to address these arguments head-on (as most people of course) All of these arguments are all addressed on www.letmeturnthetables.com Click on the link and go on the Articles section. There are plenty of other forums and articles that address this. Whoever is reading this should take a good look at the post quoted above. The Quran should be the most elegant and clear communication we have from the creator of this universe. It should speak to every person, man, woman, child, with clarity and precision that can only come from the divine, this is one of it's alleged 'miracles'. Yet not many people seem to find it 'clear' or understand it without the need of a third party commentary track and 'explanation'. Can you all see the inherent contradiction here? And this is before we begin to discuss all the scientific (An example seen above) and verse contradictions that it contains. Tallaabo;991786 wrote: Thanks doctor. I am certainly not an expert in Islam but will give my point of view, my understanding of the meaning. And so you should! You should always have a point of view and an understanding of your own.

I was wondering what you lot use in terms of saving/investment? Any traders here? I mean, with today's terrible interest rates dealing in shares seems a logical defense for you savings against inflation. So yeah, lets discuss money and investment.

Mr Allyourbase you have no argument here. Stars like bombs do produce projectiles when they explode in supernova. I am sure you don't want to get close to one. Dear Tallaabo, we are not talking here about stars in other galaxies and supernovae, the Holy Quran is very clear in its Arabic: السماء الدنيا Which is the nearest heaven, i.e. the world's heaven. Now the verse attempts to explain shooting stars as missiles directed at jinn who eavesdrop on Angels. But in doing so lumps them up with Stars, which would have been a fine explanation in the 7th century but we know today they are different things. And yes all the living things are in pairs . The species you posted are also in pairs(male and female) regardless of how they reproduce. The implied purpose for creating things in pairs is for reproduction which is proven above that some species do not have a need for. As with regards to your claim (and the Quran's) that all things are in pairs, I am sorry to say but that is not correct. If we are being scientific, then viruses are neither male nor female, same for bacterium which multiplies by cell division. In addition, there are a organisms that have both male and female parts, see Hermaphrodite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite As for the earth, Allah indicated that it is a spherical body when he me revealed this verse and others like it. "It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course." Quran 21:33 Although it is spherical, due to its immense size and gravitational pull this planet gives us the impression that it is spread out and flat. It is indeed this carpet-like property of the earth which makes it so homely and secure which Almighty Allah is asking us to think about as a blessing from Him. This makes no sense. It is clear that the use of 'rounded course' is describing the orbit of the Sun and the Moon and no the Earth. The Quran believed that the Earth is stationary in it is the Sun that orbits the earth as seen in Hadiths posted earlier. The verse translates as such: And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming. You can see all the translation of this particular verse below, I do not know where 'rounded' comes from: http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=21&verse=33 I have noticed that you did not attempt to explain the Quran's claim of the impossibility of forecasting the rain and knowing whats in the womb, as you can see it is also supported by a Sahih Hadith. I would have also loved to see you explain how it is that people could sleep for over 300 years. All of this clearly speaks of a simple understanding of the world by someone who lived in the 7th century. I cant believe how you cant see it.

Carpets are found in your Quran brother Khayr, dont shoot the (wait for it.. ) messenger (ha!)

We are back I have attempted in previous posts to show how the Hadiths of the prophet (peace be upon him) have many rulings and statements that appeal to the sensibilities of the 7th century layperson. These often include bizarre statements, pseudoscience and much that contradicts our modern understanding of the natural world. Now I have received a few messages stating that these are all Hadiths (however sahih they may be) and it is the Quran that is protected and is in fact infallible. So I am now switching to the Holy Quran, to show you that it is in fact not that different from Hadiths when it comes to unscientific statements. In the Quran there often a confusion of stars and meteorites that light up upon entering the earth's atmosphere. This is a common understanding of meteorites as 'shooting stars' by people of the 7th century. God in the Quran proclaims that stars are in fact missiles directed at jinns: And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with stars/lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame. Qur'an 67:5 ---- I had mentioned in previous posts the Prophet's claim in one of the Hadiths that knowing the gender of the fetus or when it would rain is knowledge that no one holds but Allah: - The prophet claims that no one can possibly know the gender of a baby before its born, and when it will rain . It might have been impossible when he was alive but we have technologies today that will allow us to know both. Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) said, "Keys of the unseen knowledge are five which nobody knows but Allah . . . nobody knows what will happen tomorrow; nobody knows what is in the womb ; nobody knows what he will gain tomorrow; nobody knows at what place he will die; and nobody knows when it will rain ." Sahih Bukhari 2:17:149 A statement that also appears in the Quran: Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things). Qur'an 31:34 Again for someone living in the 7th century these would appear impossible but today weather forecast and sonograms are very common. ---- There is also the claim that God had created all creatures in pairs: And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. Qur'an 51:49 Which is not the case with with asexual, all-female species like the whiptail lizard which reproduces through parthenogenesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis ---- Humans can not last more than a few days with nourishment, yet the Quran states that it is possible for humans to sleep for over three hundred years! Then We sealed up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years. Qur'an 18:11 ---- As to the flatness of the earth we have many statements that claim the earth 'spread out' and like a 'carpet', which for an all knowing all hearing divine is such a small local understanding of the Earth: -Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, Qur'an 78:6 - And at the Earth, how it is spread out? Qur'an 88:20 - He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); Qur'an 20:53

You must understand that the breastfeeding rule came as a loophole to that very Quran ruling that you have quoted. As a rule, muslim women are not allowed to reveal themselves to non related males, but the breastfeeding rule came to take non-related males and relate them (somehow) to the women. Its good that you're questioning some Sahih hadiths that you see may be prone to human error. The problem is that your view would be seen by the vast majority of muslims, especially hardliners like DrKenny or Khayr is deviation from the 'right' Islam. In fact some 'bigtime' Sheikhs like Al Suyuuti would brand you a Kafir if you refuse any Sahih Hadith.

Get outta here, Rain = Roob and Lion is Libaax.

Tallaabo;991678 wrote: By authentic I mean the holy Quran and what can be attributed to prophet Mohamed(scw) beyond reasonable doubt . As the Quran is protected by Almighty Allah from corruption, its authenticity and authority is not disputed but the problem begins with the hadiths, their interpretations and commentary by various scholars over the years, and the subsequent fatwas issued based on these interpretations and the point of views of those who studied these hadiths. It really is a difficult matter sifting through the thousands of Hadiths one would find in various book. But Muslim scholars have created a system of ranking for Hadiths based on their authenticity and it is: - Sahih (the most authentic of Hadiths, this is as good as it gets and these Hadiths can never be doubted) - Hasan - Daciif - Mucalaq And others that are of unknown origins. Now all of the Hadiths that I have provided here are of the Sahih label, so their authenticity can never be doubted. Now what do you do in this case? And this is without going through the various interpretations and commentary.

Again Tallaabo, define authentic. I say this because authentic for you may not be authentic for the poster above you. How do you define it? Is it an understanding based on Quran alone? On Quran and Hadiths? On various Tafsiir books?

Just got the Creative Habit and going through the first few chapters, its really good, thanks for the recommendation!

But Tallaabo, define basics. Also what if said basics contain similar issues that you would disagree with, what then?

Cheers, will have a look. Do check out Hardcore History, I am doing him a disservice by describing him as a hobbiest. The Creative Habit seems like a good shout actually. Have you read Outliers? Because reading through your post it seems right up your street. Malcolm Gladwell goes through the working habits of those working at world-class level. It has become a little cliched recently with the 10000 hour rule and all but its a good read!

Safferz;991491 wrote: Not cheesy at all! All the books I listed I first read around ages 17-19 (except The Creative Habit, which I read earlier this year and helped me work through my grown up procrastination habits ), and I'm sure most people similarly encountered the books on their lists at a young age for it to have an impact on their formation. Forgot to add one more, to this day one of the best history books I've ever read and one of the reasons I wanted to become a historian: Tell me more about the Creative Habit, why would you say it altered your thinking? I ask this because I myself have a bad procrastination habit that I need to kick. If you like history then stop everything you're doing now and go check a podcast called Hardcore History, its by Dan Carling, he describe himself as a hobbyist but he consistently churns out some of the best commentary and analysis of history that I have seen. Check out the WWII episodes in particular, and the Mongol ones too, fantastic stuff.

Absolutely, I think these are the sort of questions that muslims today ought to look into. An objective look into all issues that are not compatible with our modern understanding of the world and a process of revaluation are key if the Islamic societies of today are to avoid regressing back in time.

According to the Sunna of the Prophet peace be upon him, fever is in fact but a taster of the heat of Jahanam: Narrated Nazi': Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "The Prophet said, 'Fever is from the heat of Hell, so put it out (cool it) with water.' " Nafi' added: 'Abdullah used to say, "O Allah! Relieve us from the punishment," (when he suffered from fever). Sahih Bukhari 7:71:619 --- And eating 7 dates a day will cure you from poison: Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle said, "He who eats seven 'Ajwa dates every morning, will not be affected by poison or magic on the day he eats them." Sahih Bukhari 7:65:356 Ironically, many muslims believe that the prophet (peace be upon him) himself died of poisoning, it could be the case that he had forgotten to eat his 7 dates that day From Bukhari's Hadith 3.786: Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle.

I love Mondays!

I think Silanyo needs to go, he is too old.

I think you are a good guy, brother. I would say if you have trouble finishing books you can perhaps start with smaller ones and work your way up. To this day one of my favourite books is the Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, check it out, you can finish it in a couple of hours and its dead good!

Why do you say that brother Khayr? Do you have problems reading books through?

Very good development! They should set up a paypal donationations button too.

Dont worry sxb, plenty of contradictions in the Quran too, I will be posting a few more on Hadith then its Quran time

As opposed to being an Arab ***-licker? Please!

The Prophet on Diarrhea The prophet has found scientific cure to diarrhea, so next time you have the skitters you better look up this hadith: Narrated Abu Said: A man came to the prophet and said, 'My brother has got loose motions. The Prophet said, Let him drink honey." The man again (came) and said, 'I made him drink (honey) but that made him worse.' The Prophet said, 'Allah has said the Truth, and the abdomen of your brother has told a lie." Sahih Bukhari 7:71:614 The poor man complained that drinking honey had made his brothers bowl movements worse, but the prophet, confident in his prescription showed him medieval 'tough love'. ----------------- Yawning According to the Nabi (peace be upon him) the act of yawning is deployed by Satan himself: “Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Yawning is from Satan and if anyone of you yawns, he should check his yawning as much as possible, for if anyone of you (during the act of yawning) should say: 'Ha', Satan will laugh at him." Sahih Bukhari 4:54:509 What if any, is the purpose of a Hadith like this? What is the scientific, spiritual or social good that it attempting to communicate? What astonishes me is that muslims actually believe in that to this day. I've always wondered what exactly would Satan gain from forcing you to yawn, beyond the giggles I mean? Please do not take these Hadiths that I am posting as trivial sayings, as a muslim you are required to wholeheartedly believe in them, regardless of what you think their logic. ----------------- The Rasuul's (peace be upon him) view on the issue of female intellects The prophet of Islam issued a blanket statement on the intellectual deficiencies of women: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind." Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826 ----------------- This one is a dead good : Satan's loves to urinate in muslims ears. Narrated 'Abdullah : A person was mentioned before the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and he was told that he had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The Prophet said, "Satan urinated in his ears." Sahih Bukhari 2:21:245 It seems that the prophet has always nurtured a healthy dose of interest in the urinating habits of all things, including xaywaan (camels) and jin (satan). ------------ As stated above, please note that all the Hadiths above are Sahih, they come from the second source of authority in Islam after the Quran which is the Sunna of the Prophet. Each and every Muslim must believe in all of them or face being labeled a Kafir. There is a group today that because of all of the bizarre material found in Hadiths had denounced all of the Hadiths of Mohamed and only believe in the Quran, They are known as Quranists and are Kafir according to the rest of Muslims.

I would say the books that have really altered my thinking or have made a strong impression on me I read when I was younger so expect some cheese in my list: The Alchemist 100 Years of Solitude Flowers for Algernon The Art Spirit The Little Prince Outliers

DoctorKenney;991282 wrote: Didn't this clown get the hint from my posts earlier? No one is responding to you AllYourBase, because you're preparing arguments which have all been refuted in the past. You didn't even have the competency to respond to my arguments, so why should anyone respond to yours. Register on a real Islamic forum if you want answers to your arguments You're funny sxb, its like you're having this itch, you keep posting saying you will not respond to me Thats fine by me, you can respond if you like or go sit in the corner if you like. I do not need your responses to keep the thread going, in fact I can probably post what you would have said myself anyway, you lot are that predictable. Watch him reply swearing he SHALL NOT respond to me lol