Such an impressive young artist! Its a shame that she does not have much in terms of resources or tuition. She would benefit form lesson in human anatomy and perspective. I do not understand why Somali artists feel like they can learn how to draw or paint on their own. Art just like any other discipline has been taught for hundreds of years now, and whenever I see a Somali artist you can totally tell they are self taught, which for the most part mean great social commentary but with often crude and poor execution. I am yet to see a Somali artist back home with a good understanding of colour and light, or the use of palettes, i think they would totally kick *** if given some fundamentals in drawing and painting with access to life drawing classes and still life setups.

It is an absolute disgrace and an utter eyesore to observe how this demeaning getup has infiltrated our society. Wherever you go in Somalia you see the majority of women and their little baby daughters dressed like this: When the generation of our mothers and grandmothers were not beholden to this backword ideology imported from the forsaken deserts of Arabia: So sad.

galbeedi;987098 wrote: I would like to add my few senses on this issue. There are probably couple of reasons that the Jews excel in science and business. 1- The Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, especially in the western world and Russia.Education and business ingenuity were the only way to escape from poverty. Don,t look farther, even in the early twentieth century, just like blacks, Jewish were denied to be members of white Christian Clubs. They forced their way and through education and broke these barriers. 2-There are probably no Jews Noble Laureates from Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Spain or Portugal or many other countries were there Jewish communities live and do well. As we are all aware most of the winners come from Advanced economies in the west. The Jewish Diaspora is the oldest among western nations, and these western being open societies the possibilities are greater for those who strive or success. among the sixty or Muslim countries, almost all of them were colonized, except Turkey and Iran. 90% of these countries gained their independence for the last half of the twentieth century. The western world took literally the Hadiis of the Prophet which says " one must seek knowledge from the cradle to grave" , also you need freedom to seek knowledge. The Muslim Ummah is must separate it self from the backward culture of the Khaliijul Arab before it can challenge others. On the issue of Somali contribution of the world, I bet you within few decades the Somali Diaspora will produce great minds, not to the extant of the Jewish community but compared to other developing nations. We are not static nation by nature we are mobile nomads, we cannot be boxed in somebody else s narration. Moe Farrah the Somali British runner and many more will be on the spot light. Few months ago I was chaying this guy from Zimbabwe , and he said " are you Somalis guys in exile or refugees or what? I told him that few decades ago we were singing " Ian Smith ma muuqdeen, Rodishia ma maageen hadan midig la siinin" I narrated how we took part in their liberation from White minority rule in Zimbabwe. Look at these great minds in this forum, how intelligent and reasonable they are, when they are engaged issues outside their tribal home lands. Finally, Atheists like Richard Dawking will never understand The Believing of the unseen and .faith. The foundation of hierarchy like God the Creator, Faith , Family and country were replaced by mans desires and whims by proclaiming the death of Faith. I have no intention of debating with atheist. Cool. But let me correct you, "One must seek knowledge from the cradle to grave" is in fact not a Hadith.

I hate the proverbial mud house, I really do, and it is my belief that only once we see it for what it is do we go on and improve it. My comment to the contribution is inline with the topic i.e. tangible in the sciences and arts. I mean, we have lived in this region of the world for millennia and we have nothing to show for it, thus our contribution being nil. If all of the Somali Lands were swallowed by the earth tomorrow, the people and the land wont really be missed, isn't that a comment on us as peoples?

Apophis;986694 wrote: The question you ask is a good one but I do not know if you are asking it sincerely or it is merely rhetoric. And do you really know “our net contribution to the world" to speak of it as a matter of fact? It really is sincere, I would love nothing more than to see my people doing well, despite my different views on religion to yourself. And it IS easy to dismiss anyone based on their views being different to yours, and going on witch hunts requesting for certain posts to be deleted and members to be banned because they stated views that not be compatible with your own (Im looking at you DrK). All of this is very very easy but if you stopped for a second, just a second to answer my question (which is not rhetoric) as to our net contribution to the world, as peoples, you will find an answer that is very embarrassing and depressing. And while some would go and blame it on a lack of religious piety, a laughable conclusion. Some need to state the obvious that it has nothing to do with religion really, or piety, or jews, or Ibliis. It is simply lack of education, drive, ambition, grit..etc. And whilest its easy to reminisce on a period of islamic empire that was dominant for a short period of time, you need to remember that what is Somalia today was still as backwards and still as insignificant back then. Hargeisa was no Baghdad, Muqdisho was no Damascus and Garowe was no Istanbul.

Khayr;986670 wrote: ^You are definitely delusional in your disassociation from your religious and ethnic orgins. How am I disassociating myself from my ethnic origins? Just by stating the facts of our net contribution to the world? These are facts sxb, and only once you stop reciting names of long dead persian scientists and claiming them as your own do you wake to the fact that you have a lot of catching up to do. Your 'brother's' line of reasoning that an almighty god bestows specific traits along ethnic lines acts only to dismiss the true nature of their achievement which comes through a need to succeed and sheer grit.

I can be many things, at least I am no delusional hypocrite, who attempts to distort both the present and the past knowing fully well you're lying to yourself and other posters here.

So now you argue that your god dictated the different talents that different ethnic groups got? And you dare label anyones argument silly? So, somewhere in this vast universe, your god decides to give jews unparalleled intellect, gives the Chinese the gift of hard work and grit, and goes on to bestow upon some blacks the gift of, wait for it, athleticism! Do you realise how silly this sounds even by your own standards?

Dude, it hurts you doesnt it? The fact that there are other people out there with different viewpoints to your weird, distorted self-induced fairytale of a past. If stating the coldass truth of you as a Somali being at the lowest point of human civilisation at the moment is an insult then you are pretty effing delusional sxb. Iskudhejiskan aad waddid eed name dropping persian scientists as if somehow that is an honour you can claim is utterly bizarre to say the least. And this is in no way a digression on my part. What Dawking had said about muslims is a fact, but your lot went on the defensive attempting to discredit the highest accolade of human advancement in science and humanities. My point is simple: if you are trying to advance the idea of islam being a science-nurturing religion then please tell me how many physicists, philosophers and scientists that came out of Mecca or Madina, the heartland of the Dacwah. Simple right? On the other hand the Persian Empire had always had a claim to scientific and artistic research, they literally invented the wheel. So they would have performed with or without Islam. "As Ibn Khaldun, the fourteenth-century Arab historiographer and sociologist suggests, it is a remarkable fact that with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars in the intellectual sciences were Ajams ("Persians"): Thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent… they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar … great jurists were Persians … only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, 'If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it' … The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them … as was the case with all crafts … This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana [=modern Central Asia], retained their sedentary culture"

Its quite funny how when convenient some names always appear as Islam's scientific lineage when for the most part they are uttered with much contempt in layperson circles. Al Khawarzmi for instance is thought by many to have been Shia (seen by Ahlul Sunna wal Jamaca as infidels) but is seen here as a 'pious' muslim caalim for the sole purpose of evoking an aura of scientific pedigree to a religion opposed to science. His names appears in Altabari's book as Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwārizmī al-Majousi al-Katarbali, which clearly indicates that his was of Zartosht religious background. Now how would the poster above describe the 'religious piety' of a man we know very little of his personal life? It does not matter! His name sound muslim and he contributed to science. Thats enough to add him to the pre-written, copy-paste riddled text files of 'Defence against Al Shubuhaat' every online islamic warrior keeps in their desktops. Ibn il Haythem (Al Hazen) is an other persian scholar many muslim like to parade around as a 'pious' example of the ultimate muslim scientist where the man himself was more into philosophy of Aristotle and others: "[Alhazen] was given a traditional Muslim education, but at an early age he became perplexed by the variety of religious beliefs and sects, because he was convinced of the unity of truth. When he was older, he concluded that truth could be attained only in doctrines whose matter was sensible and whose form was rational. He found such doctrines in the writings of Aristotle and in natural philosophy and mathematics". What is funny is that Ibn Al Haytham was actually disabled by the islamic doctrines of the time which forbode dissection of human tissue, and had to rely on the finding of other scientists in order to advance his understanding. What you will notice is that even with the muslim scientists they parade in these 'preemptive' religious cyber strikes, very little of the lists they will offer would actually claim arab lineage including Al Farabi, Ibn Sina, Al Hazen, Al Khawarzmi, all happen to be of Persian origins. In saying this, we must see that the persians were people of science and empire well before the islamic conquests. I would be very interested in the scientific influence of Saudi Arabia, you know, the Mekkans and Medinans of the world. You have to accept that you have contributed very little to the advancement of the human race as a Soomali, no amount of isku dhedhejis with Arabs or Muslims will change this. Persian had scientists before and after Islam, they're kicking *** (albeit at a smaller scale) to this date. What have you contributed? Where do you stand today as a Somali. We are ****ed beyond recognition and we play little psychological games in dreaming of pasts in which we carried more weight. **** no, if you think that you as a Somali, were more important during the golden age of islamic enlightenment you are in for a big disappointment my friend. Stop living in this weird distorted past and realise we did not amount to much in the past, but we can totally kick *** if we put our minds to it. It probably wont happen in our lifetimes but you never know.

No one does it better than Ishmahil Blagrove, Hyde Park's finest:

The whole argument is moot, because it is limited to politics. Politics is not the entirety of what decides a political system. It also interleaves pretty much completely with the media, the establishment and the police. Overarching all of this is capitalism, which trumps everything. So the idea that voting can effect any sort of a change in the UK currently, or to be frank ever again, is quite laughable. There are three main parties, all of whom represent exactly the same interests. Exactly the same - the accumulation and preservation of wealth. Any party that can engender enough support to be considered any sort of a threat to these three parties will either be: A) Denied sufficient oxygen of publicity to achieve electoral success. Social media possibly offers a loophole, where consequently B) Their ideologies are subsumed into a more palatable form for the masses by the major parties (this has happened many times with Labour / Conservatives, no doubt we will see it happen with the Lib Dems if they survive in any form). Any extreme opposition will always remain on the political fringes at best. Green, UKIP, BNP et al have all and will all experience this. So the status quo remains, vested interests are protected, the rich continue to be rich. Brand's viewpoint is correct, a revolution is the only alternative. Personally I don't think it will ever happen as people are too supine, and if it somehow does we will simply have anarchy followed by feudalism followed by capitalism again. It is too ingrained in our consciousness for us to ever be rid of it. In my wildest dreams, people start to think. Society strives to improve. However, the reality is things will only ever get worse.

He absolutely murdered Paxman! Although he can be verbose, his heart is definitely in the right place and most of what he says is pretty on the money,

I think the question of clan allegiance applies to most african countries in the sense that political borders may separate single clans between two countries. The referendum in South Sudan was only within the borders of South Sudan and did not include the entirety of the Sudan, likewise appears the proposed referendum in Scotland and we know of similar cases in Eritrea (1993), East Timor (1999) and Kurdistan (albeit informal, 2005). It seems that though the clan allegiance is an important factor, it has no leg to stand on politically as the nature of independance referenda is for it to be held within the territory that is seeking independence.

I do not see any workable plan that does not include a referendum within the borders of the Somaliland Protectorate, I was simply alluding to the similarities with the other state seeking independence i.e. Scotland in having parts of the country wanting to remain within the union.

An other aspect that I wish to highlight is the presence within Scotland of parts that seemingly do not wish to part with the rest of the UK, namely the Shetland isles. These are very important to the economy of a future independent Scotland seeing as they happen to have large oil reserves, so again it would be interesting to see how that pans out.

I think the referendum is a very sensible solution as it would give the Somali republic time to lure people back to its stand and in a couple of years should they choose to vote for independence then it would only be fair to let them go.

So what? We still be hating

Mad_Mullah;981101 wrote: re-union won't happen. But at the same time you can't compare the Scotts to Somalilanders. We are only comparing them as two entities that have large sections of their population wanting to be independant. It really seems like a clear and easy solution, perhaps too easy. I mean, what would the problem be with a reunion with view of referendum within the borders of Somaliland in a couple of years?

I have been thinking lately how similar the quest for Scottish independence is to that of Somaliland, as both seem like smaller nations that were amalgamated by means of not-so-fair unions with larger neighbours. As the momentum for independance grow, it seems that Scotland would either be going solo comes next years referendum or at the very least attempt to get even more fiscal powers through its system of devolution (devo max?). Would a reunion with Somalia be possible on the premise of having a referendum (in 3-5 years time) that is limited to the historical Somaliland Protectorate?

In saying that, you imply an alternative for said Bangladeshi girl working to make Friday night garments for the above poster. Please elaborate on the alternative.

For a moment there I thought this thread would be dedicated to Shingeki No Kyojin, would've been more interesting.

GAROODI;978486 wrote: I am begging you to write down for us every contradiction you found. Please state the aya or sentence and chapter so we can all look for ourselves as well. I have gone through it so many times and have not found even one so I am very intrigued. Hobbesian_Brute;978489 wrote: Thankfully someone else has spared me the effort of compiling them, go to this link. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Qur%27an its also full of historical inaccuracies for a supposedly infallible book dictated by the creator to his prophet. http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv7.html I am eager to hear what you say to the contradictions posted

Mad_Mullah;977319 wrote: If Siyad Bare stayed we would be at Egypt's level but every country has their version of HAG that keeps them down -- celebrating the building of a hotel by a man living in London and getting food from Turks. Aar kani muxuu leeyahay? This is Egypt in the 70s: You cant funk with that bro.

Marksman;977543 wrote: In my opinion islam goes against many human rights and common laws we have today in the western world. And we take them for granted. Why don't we talk about this instead of a romanticized version of islam? Sure there are some good things, but go into detail and you'll be shocked. Go to the islamic sources and you'll see that being a minority (religion), slave or a woman is one of the worst things to be in a country based on islamic law. I wish people would refute my claims with examples. I'll do the same later. Sure it makes me sad when people say islam is perfect and Muslims aren't. In general we lack critical thinking. We're stagnant, we're stuck. +1