Brother Khayr, why dont you help out your friend here? He is in trouble

Dude, stop running and answer the questions below: 1- Do you dispute the fact that the prophet of Islam ordered a woman to breastfeed a grown man with a beard despite her exclamation? 1.5- Did the prophet of Islam indicate the practicalities of such breastfeeding? 2- Do you dispute that his wife, the beloved Aisha continued the practice to allow men not related to her access to her quarters? 3- Do you dispute the fact that your own Sheikhs, Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albaani are supporters of this particular ruling and its existence? 4- Do you have any Sahih hadiths that support your view of the use of a cup in this weird ritual? [optional] 5- What is your personal opinion on this practice? Beyond these religious texts, what is your personal view on this? What was the need that forced the prophet to make such bizarre rulings? I can not allow you to run away from this

I hope this shows everyone how brainwashed most of our people are with regards to religion and spirituality. I am sure that DrKenny in real life would be some what reasonable and with some education yet when it comes to this subject he is prepared to throw all reason out the window. He knows exactly how strange and disgusting this practice is, he agrees that the prophet ordered it, and that it has also been agreed upon by his most beloved wife and the Sheikh that he calls the Sheikh of Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah, who he agreed is an authority in Islam, but as he is viewing me as an infidel attacking his religion he refuses to stop for a minute to question these walls of texts that he is continually posting. Its very sad wallahi [opps!]

As predicted he could not answer the questions I have simplified on purpose for him. Notice how he is still able to write quite a bit of text while refusing to answer these seemingly innocent questions. Dearest DrKenny, you know how weak your argument is, everyone here can see that, and you're trying your best to cover that up by posting random 300 page books which NO ONE in this thread really cares about, in addition to getting us to discuss the practicalities of the breastfeeding trying to pass it off as normal behaviour. lol My facts still stand: - The Prophet did order this practice (from Sahih Hadiths!) To which our friend says it is a very specific ruling to one family, despite how bizarre of a ruling it is, and the fact that the prophet himself did not clarify that this was a specific rule for that situation. - Not only the prophet but his most beloved wife, and daughter of Abu Baker, the first Caliph, Aisha did indeed practice this to which she was only met with disapproval by the other wives. - Not only the prophet and his wife, but the most prominent Sheikh of Wahabism, Ibn Taymiyah, and his follower Al Albaany, and Al Huwayny all agreed with Aisha and the prophet. Our brother Kenny is still in denial after all of this, and as can clearly be seen above, is refusing to answer my simple questions knowing fully well that they would go to show his lack of reason. The questions still are: 1- Do you dispute the fact that the prophet of Islam ordered a woman to breastfeed a grown man with a beard despite her exclamation? 1.5- Did the prophet of Islam indicate the practicalities of such breastfeeding? 2- Do you dispute that his wife, the beloved Aisha continued the practice to allow men not related to her access to her quarters? 3- Do you dispute the fact that your own Sheikhs, Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albaani are supporters of this particular ruling and its existence? 4- Do you have any Sahih hadiths that support your view of the use of a cup in this weird ritual? [optional] 5- What is your personal opinion on this practice? Beyond these religious texts, what is your personal view on this? What was the need that forced the prophet to make such bizarre rulings?

Good for them, I wonder how many more decades will go by before we get our shit together...

Tallaabo;991077 wrote: What are these Hadiths? There are non, he will only bring you Fatwas that discuss other questions after sneakily omitting the questions, or unrelated verses from the Quran discussing the normal breastfeeding of a mother to her son and not this monsterosity. Please note that it is documented that Aisha the prophet's most beloved wife did indeed practice this.

This man is really beyond reason. He had the time to write (or perhaps copy) that huge wall of text but no time to answer two very short and simple questions. Notice how he is avoiding the Aisha subject, which would simply ruin his logic, as he is claiming that it is agreed upon by all 'non obscure' muslim Sheikhs. He went to the troubles of naming some of them, namely Ibn Taymiyah and Al Albaany as an example of a trustworthy Sheikhs. Unbeknown to him, both Ibn Taymiyah and Al Albaany agree to the existence of Breastfeeding of grown men, accepted this practice and stated how Aisha, the beloved wife of the prophet did indeed take part in it. Then he started to Fatwa Shop and googling other opinions that agree with his views. So to put it simply he produced the names of two sheikhs that he agreed were an authority in Islam. I provided their consent to this practice. He then ran to find other views that agree with him. Which anyone can, you yourself said how it was possible to find someone condoning homosexuality in Islam. I would then provide many Sahih Hadiths that document the practice in Islam and how the prophet of islam and his wife were great supporters for it. He brought a book by Ibn Saad, a non Sahih book of history to explain how the breasts were actually milked into a cup WHICH IS NOT WHAT WE WERE DISCUSSING And acting as though drinking human milk by grown men is NORMAL. So dude, man up and answer my simple questions: 1- Do you dispute the fact that the prophet of Islam order a woman to breastfeed a grown man with a beard despite her exclamation? 2- Do you dispute that his wife, the beloved Aisha continued the practice to allow men not related to her access to her quarters? 3- Do you dispute the fact that your own Sheikhs, Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albaani are supporters of this particular ruling and its existance? 4- Do you have any Sahih hadiths that support your view of the use of a cup in this weird ritual? [optional] 5- What is your personal opinion on this practice? Beyond these religious texts, what is your personal view on this? What was the need that forced the prophet to make such bizarre rulings? [optional] Notice everyone how he will come back with yet an other wall of text [probably edited from other sources as he was caught earlier in the thread] and totally avoid answering these simple questions. I said this before sxb, checkmate

Miyir;991052 wrote: We are all human some of us have a KINKY side nothing to be ashamed or offended. Yes, thats fine by me. Laakinse to see the prophet of islam ordering such kinky practices and his wife defying everyone else in their practice is just not good news for our brothers DrKenny and Khayr and co I am afraid. Notice how he keeps saying that the practice was abrogated and the the actual milk was had in a cup, assuming that if it was abrogated then its somehow okay. Notice how he never spoke on the fact that his beloved prophet ordered this poor woman to breastfeed a man, this he can not dispute. Notice that the prophet's wife went in defiance of all the other wives and practiced this sick ritual. He refuses to talk about this and is just going in circles about cups

DoctorKenney;991050 wrote: There really isn't anything I should respond to, regarding this troll. Everything he just claimed, I already addressed. And any future posts I make regarding this, I'll risk repeating myself. So what else is there to say? He keeps claiming as if this ruling is still valid. I proved to him that it's no longer valid. I proved to him that this ruling was an exception made for specific people, during the lifetime of the Prophet. And that this ruling no longer applies. I proved to him that the woman first poured the milk into a cup, and then gave it to him to drink, but he insists that it's not true, and then he wants to insert his own bias into this. So what else is there to say to someone who wants to deny the facts altogether? It's pointless. It's proof that he has no interest in getting out the truth, but is only getting a kick out of discussing this topic. I've given him Quranic verses, tafsirs, authentic hadiths, fatwas, and the opinions of many different Sahabi regarding this issue, who completely agree with me, but Allyourbase wants to dismiss this. He's bankrupt here. Here's another link that goes into further detail regarding this topic than I ever had: http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun-nursing.htm#Why was nursing of adults That's all I have to say regarding this, this argument itself has been refuted several years ago. Why are you avoiding my questions? They are really simple and straightforward sxb. 1- Did you prophet order this weird practice? (I dare you to answer) 2- Did his wife herself take part in this practice? I proved to him that the woman first poured the milk into a cup, and then gave it to him to drink, but he insists that it's not true, and then he wants to insert his own bias into this. Dude, why do you keep mentioning the cup thing as if that makes it normal everyday behaviour?! Are you into this stuff too? [wink wink] I stated before that I do not care about the actual practicalities of it. Whether she put ice cubes in the cup or put a straw in it for him to suckle on is not really that important to me, or anyone really, what is important is that this did happen and was ordered by your prophet, that is all I am interested in. And these are points that you are in agreement with, now your lack of a good comeback to my very simple questions above clearly show you are are at the end of your wits here. But to actually follow your lead, and shut you up once and for all on this point I will humor you. How exactly did you prove to me that a cup of any kind was used in this freaky practice of yours? What did the prophet exlicitly say? Breastfeed him. Did he mention how to do it? NO. Do you have any hadith that is Sahih supporting your argument of a cup being ever used? NO. You simply quoted a book titled Tabaqaat Ibn Sa'ad. The author of this book was born 150 years after Mohamed died. For you to say that this is proof is again being disingenuous to the readers, knowing that they wont follow the links you posted to see whats up. Or implying that you quoted Sahih Hadiths to support your argument. Well I did. And where I have provided two Hadiths that are Sahih for you read, you brought forth the ramblings of Ibn Sa'ad: Muhammad Ibn ‘Umar told us: Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdullah, Az-Zuhri’s nephew, told us on authority of his father that he said: an amount of one milk drink was collected in a pot or glass, so Salem used to drink it every day, for five days. After this, he used to enter at her while her head is uncovered. This was permission from Messenger of Allah to Sahla bint Suhail. ( Ibn Sa’d, Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir , Volume 10, page 257. Also, Ibn Hajar, Al-Isabah, Volume 7, page 717) If this was in fact the case, we would have read about it in the same Sahih books that have put the stories of the suckling ordered by your prophet. The lack of explanation in the Hadith imply one thing and one thing only, some breasts were exposed, brother Please watch Sheikh Al Huwayni, a very prominent Wahabi Sheikh, also a student of one of your favourites Al Albaany, refuting your claims and stressing that the cup stories are Daciif, and the breastfeeding is done the old fashioned way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-cNu1EOzAA So the question is: Can you bring ONE hadith from the Sahih Sunna or the Quran (the two authorities in your religion) that claim it was a cup that was used? Simples! This was to shut you up on this point but as I said numerous times, I do not care if the milk was served in a cup or a starbucks mug, it makes no difference to the fact that this strange practice was ordered by your prophet. Boom!

double p

Khayr;990992 wrote: Your are being very dishonest. This is not a debate but a ridiculing of Islam and you should be banned for this! Khayr;991012 wrote: Offbase, Aisha (ر) reported the hadith but where did it say that men where suckling her breast? You are spewing this thread with your garbage and you are being insideous with your circular line of questioning. You should be banned! Khayr;991027 wrote: As I said I do not care about the practicalities of this weird, messed up practice. What is important to me is the fact that Aisha did practice it and that your prophet ordered a woman to allow a man to suckle on her exposed breast. You are a troll parading around on and rehearsing your Freudian fantasies. You shoulf be BANNED! You sure are persistent

Guje;991022 wrote: ^ for all we know you could be a perv getting a kick out of it, secretly hoping folks will prolong this saga. i am confused is this breastfeeding stuff really allowed or what ??? i remember a while back a crazy fatwa come on facebook that had everyone talking. Haha, no I am just exposing some of the sick behaviour Arabs did and proclaim today as religion. Dont be confused about it. Basically Mohamed ordered a woman to breastfeed a strange man so he can become Mahram for her (weird, I know!) and she did. Later on Aisha, his wife, used this as a ruling that general in Islam and not specific to the case of the woman who was ordered by the prophet. So Aisha would ask her sisters or their daughters to breastfeed any man Aisha wanted to have access to her quarters, a practice which the other wives of the prophet did not agree with. These are the FACTS of the matter, and beyond this I will only be giving you my opinion. I will not be feeding you propaganda links like DrKenny and co would, I will simply tell you to look it all up yourself. And see the discussion on it and make up your mind. What I stated above is what is present in the Sunna books and the Hadiths relating to it are all Sahih. Thats all. Hope it helps.

Apophis;991016 wrote: Ffs stop discussing grown men drinking or not breast milk. Utterly disgusting and macabre. Chill, I totally agree with you, its disgusting and I think one of the most vile things I have ever heard, but it was a practice directly linked to the prophet of islam and his wife Aisha. I am so sorry if I have offended you.

DoctorKenney;991009 wrote: Here is the link that goes into further detail regarding this. Everyone reading this thread should click on it http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4806&CATE=120 Either way, you're jumping around here trying to prove something that's not true. It's not valid in Shariah. It's an incorrect ruling, and I've given plenty of examples showing you. And even Aisha herself, never believed that it was okay for a strange man to suckle out of a woman directly. What she believed in, was pouring the milk into a utensil or a cup, and then give the cup to the man to drink, without exposing her body parts. Allyourbase would have us believe that there were lines of men waiting to suckle on her, which is totally wrong and is a complete fabrication, and he is slandering the name of Aisha. He's giving no evidence at all for his beliefs. Again, read the link I provided, which provides different evidences but reaches the same conclusions. That's all I have to say about this issue. And there are plenty of refutations on the net All he's doing (Allyourbase) is basically trying desperately to validate his pre-conceived beliefs and then try to pass it off as a legitimate ruling in Islam. He's wrong, I've proven him wrong several times on this thread, and that should be the end of this discussion. The link I provided goes into far greater detail than me, but it still says everything I needed to say. I DO NOT CARE about the practicalities of the suckling, certainly the Hadith I have quoted when your prophet ordered the woman to allow the strange bearded man to suckle on her breast was explicit in the usage of the word suckle. In fact here is a lecture on this very topic by Sheikh Al Huwayni, who was a student of one of your own favourite Sheikhs mr. Al Albany, clearly refuting the 'drinking the woman's milk from a cup' rehtoric that you are presenting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-cNu1EOzAA What she believed in, was pouring the milk into a utensil or a cup, and then give the cup to the man to drink, without exposing her body parts. Dude you are talking as if the actual suckling is weird and what you presented is alright, this is insane! Do you think it is normal for a woman to pour her own milk into a cup for a strange man to drink?! Do think this is acceptable behaviour? As I said I do not care about the practicalities of this weird, messed up practice. What is important to me is the fact that Aisha did practice it and that your prophet ordered a woman to allow a man to suckle on her exposed breast. Now you did not answer me, what do you think of this behaviour, seriously, what is your opinion on it?

HOLD IT. You yourself said that the act of allowing a strange man to suckle on you or your relatives for a woman was 'bizarre'. You said that yourself. And it is documented by your own sources that Aisha did that very thing that you thought was immoral and strange. So why not just say it? Is she not a normal person like you and me? Have you not said before that this practice is 'bizarre'? Okay, what about your beloved Prophet, was he incorrect too? Because he was the one who ordered such practice to begin. If we all agree that the act in itself is vile, why not condemn those who propagated it?

DoctorKenney;991001 wrote: What Allyourbase is doing is completely dishonest, and he knows it. He quotes Hadiths, claims that those hadith rulings are still valid to this day, and then he claims that this is the valid view of the consensus of scholars, and then he tries to flip the situation and make it as if his opinion is the correct one. And then he tries to flip it on me and claim that I'm the one with the misunderstanding! Read above, read everything I posted, and I've given plenty of evidence. So what if Aisha and Sheikh Albaani made mistakes ? What does this have to do with anything? So FINALLY you agree that Aisha is a sinner? And she, along with Albany and Ibn Taymiyyah's understanding of this matter is morbid, immoral, strange and definitely not part of islam? Do you agree? (Say yes )

I only repeated the questions because you refused to answer a very simple, straightforward question on many occasions. I did not ask you if it was abrogated or not, I simply said, are the Hadiths that I have posted Sahih or not. To which you could have simply either said yes or no. But just like you took the part of that post you thought would weaken your argument and disingenuously posted that wall of text you are evading my simple questions. I know why, and everyone who is reading right now too knows why. Because you know they are Sahih. You also know that the wife of the prophet did not give a [you know what] about what you call 'consensus' and followed the Hadith of your prophet, which clearly shows that it is infact not abrogated. Do you know who agrees with me? Yes, Al Albany and Ibn Taymiyyah, YOUR VERY OWN Sheikhs, that you were quoting earlier in the day. You chose to cite them when you thought their views aligned with yours, as AUTHORITIES of fiqh as you have yourself stated. And yet you chose to ABANDON them when their views embarrassed you in this discussion. You ran and googled your own view, found a random article answering the question of a man with the weird fetish of drinking his own wife's milk, deleted the part that referred to the question and posted the rest thinking that you were not going to be caught but you were So to put it simply, our friend has abandoned the school of Ibn Taymiyyah and Al Albany that he was advocating and is claiming that in this matter he is right, and the wife of the prophet, is in fact wrong. [i would not want to be you on Judgment day] So yeah, checkmate sxb.

Oh should I? You are a very funny character sxb, isdeji, and stop reporting me to the mods This is a discussion, no amount of censorship would take out these hadiths from the books. I mean, even if you could censor me, are you going to censor Sahih Muslim? LOL

I hope this discussion has proved how fickle the understanding of muslims, even those who claim some religious knowledge of the real rulings of this religion. I am sure both DoctorKenny and Khayr were shocked to hear this really weird practice by Aisha and the Prophet. I think both members here are well meaning, they want to represent their religion and defend it, but what they are missing in doing so is actually thinking about what they are copying and pasting. They are so busy trying to get those Hasanaat and the browny points that will get them to their Jannah that they get into some really murky situations. Evidently seen here by drKenny taking out part of the huge wall of essay just because it would be clear that the question is not relevant to this discussion. Also evident by his own desertion of the very Sheikhs he proclaimed to be authorities on religious matters, and trying to find other ones purely because their opinions embarrassed him in this discussion, clearly Fatwa Shopping, an act he was criticising just earlier today. Its a shame and it speaks of the lack of reasoning that we suffer from today.

Wherever you got it from you disingenuously omitted the question which clearly said: What is the ruling on drinking one’s wife’s milk? That was a really sneaky move on your part, and you have been caught red handed. You are still avoiding my very very simple and straightforward question. The reason why you are avoiding them because you know the Hadiths that I have quoted are indeed Sahih. And in denouncing my posts you are also avoiding the fact that both Aisha, the wife of your prophet, and your hero, ibn Taymiya, the man you named yourself as one of your own Sheikhs have agreed that the suckling of grown men in Islam is infact NOT abrogated. This is clear for all to see. Remember dear readers that this man was flaming an other poster in this very thread for what he labeled 'Fatwa Shopping': Second of all, anyone on the internet can go "fatwa shopping" and find strange statements from obscure Sheikhs And went on to name Ibn Taymiyyah as one of his trusted sources here: The vast majority of scholars, men such as Ibn Taymiyyah , Qayyim, Abdul Wahhab, and even contemporary Sheikhs like Albaani and Al Uthaymeen and Al Munajjid state otherwise. But according to you, you want to overlook the vast examples stating otherwise and focus on a select few which confirm your bias. And once I have presented my argument of how bizarre [even by drkenny's own admission] some of the rituals in islam are, and how Aisha, the wife of the prophet did indeed practice the suckling of grown men via proxy of her sisters. And went to the troubles of finding not one but two hadiths in which these are acts are specifically mentioned and explained, both being sahih. One whereby the prophet himself ordering a woman to do it, and smiling when she objects that the man in question is indeed an adult. The other whereby the other wives are criticizing Aisha, Mohamed's most beloved wife for practicing this ritual. Two hadiths the he refuses to answer whether they are Sahih or not. And once I have added that his OWN SHEIKHS, the ones that he mentioned himself above, ibn Taymiyyah AND Al Albany both agreed with Aisha, what does DrKenny do? [Listen to Al Albany talking about this issue and clearly stating the views of Ibn Taymiyah and himself: ] He goes and FATWA SHOPS himself, trying to find OTHER Sheikhs that agree with him, disregarding the men he was bigging up a moment ago. Not only that but he disingenuously omits the part that indicates that the wall of text that he carelessly copied is infact intended for a different question about a man drinking his own wife's milk. If this is not confirmation bias, then I do not know what is You have been caught sxb , I am sorry

I just saw where DrKenny copied his block of text that he is arguing with: http://islam.worldofislam.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=742:what-is-the-ruling-on-drinking-ones-wifes-milk Notice how the question is: What is the ruling on drinking one’s wife’s milk? :D What dishonest post from you sxb, trying to mix the suckling of a stranger which is a very specific matter in your religion with a weird fetish of a man wanting to drink his wife's milk, you've been caught!!

Dude, can you answer a simple question: Do you consider these hadiths to be Sahih: 1- The prophet ordered this practice in this Sahih Hadith: ' A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She said: How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man. 'Amr has made this addition in his narration that he participated in the Battle of Badr and in the narration of Ibn 'Umar (the words are): Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) laughed. Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3424 Zainab daughter of Abu Salama reported: I heard Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon himy, saying to 'A'isha: By Allah, I do not like to be seen by a young boy who has passed the period of fosterage, whereupon she ('A'isha) said: Why is it so? Sahla daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I swear by Allah that I see in the face of Abu Hudhaifa (the signs of disgust) on account of entering of Salim (in the house), whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She (Sahla bint Suhail) said: He has a beard. But he (again) said: Suckle him, and it would remove what is there (expression of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa. She said: (I did that) and, by Allah, I did not see (any sign of disgust) on the face of Abu Hadhaifa. Book 008, Number 3428 So basically the prophet ordered this poor lady to suckle a man with a beard! Do you refute any of that DrKenny? 2- Aisha who was the wife of the prophet of Islam (arguably his favourite after Khadija), adopted this bizarre ritual, and would order her sisters to suckle any stranger man she wanted to have access to her quarters. A'isha umm al-muminin took that as a precedent for whatever men she wanted to be able to come to see her. She ordered her sister, Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr as-Siddiq and the daughters of her brother to give milk to whichever men she wanted to be able to come in to see her. The rest of the wives of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, refused to let anyone come in to them by such nursing. They said, 'No! By Allah! We think that what the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered Sahla bint Suhayl to do was only an indulgence concerning the nursing of Salim alone. No! By Allah! No one will come in upon us by such nursing!' Muwatta' Malik Book 30, Number 30.2.12

You did not answer me DrKenny, are the Hadiths that I have posted Sahih or not? Simple question requires simple answers. And please dont copy and paste your argument, if I wanted I could copy and paste my arguments from the myriad websites that have anti islamic essays, I only get sources and put them here for authentication. Now answer my question please. I do not care if it was one incident or a ruling, this falls to everyones own sense of judgment as seen in how Aisha thought its a general ruling and the other wives did not. Lets stick to the basics, are these Sahih or not?

This is all clear evidence as to why Richard Dawkins would mock the 'Muslim World'. You have young, intelligent, educated [i hope] boys and girls in the 21st century who take their moral and spiritual codes from people who would utter and perform the most bizarre or acts. The Hadiths I have posted above are Sahih, so you can not do anything there, you can not doubt their authenticity, you can not say I am spreading lies upon Allah and his Messenger. You simply cant! However you can and will continue to lie to yourself, to try and refute what I am saying because you are seeking rewards, loot, aka hasanaat which in turn will allow you entrance to your Jannah and in turn an all the virgin buffet that you will deflower at will.. so sad

Safferz;990977 wrote: December 13 1937 - Nanking falls to the Japanese and the Nanking Massacre begins The rape of Nanjing :(