I’m not sure I understood that, J. "Now that is that NGONGE. But what do you if the idea of championing a new culture complete with best virtues and values, mostly Islamic?" To have a Somali culture with the best virtues and values that is mostly Islamic would be great. That will only come about if the dominant group in Somali society are religious. Even then, many of the brothers and sisters who are, stick to the letter of Islamic Sharia and forget that there are other ingredients that made Islam great. The prophet (scw) told the Arabs of his time that he was sent to complete (or compliment) their values and morals. Sorry, I’m starting to ramble on again...I’ll stop now.

The above guy sounds like someone who knows what they're talking about. Heh.

the birth rate in Kenya was 7 children per mother now it went down to 4 or 5, you would think this country is making process yeah. here is the clincher with the Aids/Hiv epidemic the death rate has increased therefore the balance is lost again. I’m being a devils advocate here by the way. As a Muslim, I don’t agree with family planning and contraception. However, in reply to your words above, isn’t that the whole idea of family planning (population control is one part of it)? Isn’t the idea of all those contraceptives to do with reducing STDs and HIV?

I don’t believe the West do most things out of compassion. They do things to serve their own ends. They also aim to force their values and morals on everyone else because they believe them to be right. However, I stand by my earlier comments regarding racism and the victim culture. We don’t need to blame the West for trying to look after their interests when we don’t look after our own. If we look at the big picture then maybe the West would shoulder some of the blame for the state Africa (and many poor countries) are in. But, most of the blame would lie with those countries and their people. The West does not force us to kill each other. The West does not force us to cheat, steal and brutalise our own people. The West only takes advantage of our own ********* . The topic was about family planning but the original poster didn’t expand on his/her ideas on that subject, they didn’t even ask a question (other than the racism bit)!

I realise that, J. I was saying my bit but it was not my intention to offend.

I’m not sure where to begin here! Positive (and farah) ask interesting questions. But, I’m tempted to add an extra question of my own. Why do we need culture? Surely we live in a global village where most of the main norms and practises are the same the world over. Many people limit culture to history and heritage but even there we’re not really unique. J11 speaks of the way the tribes and clans used to operate. This is exactly how the Arab tribes operated. Others speak of our nomad life style and our arts, poetry and family trees! Again, this is nothing but a variation of the Bedouin way of life of Arabs (from the camels, all the way to the little artefacts we build). In fact, that part of Somali culture is a carbon copy of Bedouin cultures. I wouldn’t say there is a culture crisis in Somalia. Cultures change and evolve. Things that fitted Somalis a hundred years ago might not work in today’s environment. To look at culture from that angle only leads to lots of navel gazing and prejudice! Positive, the four groups you mention all make valid points but none of them is totally right. Why does it have to be a choice between any of them? The people that makeup the Somali nation come from all these groups and, in a free society, the views of all should be heard and able to progress and blossom. All will embrace logical ideas that will improve the society while weak ideas will whither and die. Having said all of this, I’m sure all groups agree on the main problems in our society, which is why they’re all trying to do something about it. I personally don’t care much for the popular definition of “culture” amongst Somalis. It’s fake and it’s not really of any use to anyone. It’s a source of false pride for many people. It allows people who did nothing to claim the credit for the deeds of others.

Stpaulchick, don’t fall for the Arab nationalism rubbish. It does not really exist. When we see the plight of the Palestinians and the Iraqis it’s the Muslim world that needs to be blamed for it not just Arabs. This Arab stuff is what destroyed the Ottoman empire; the Brits managed to fuel anti Turkish feeling amongst the Arabs and promised them that they’ll get to rule their own lands only if they agreed to side with her majesty’s empire in the war against the Ottomans. The Arabs did and look where that got them? Shortly after the Second World War, Israel was created and the Arabs (Muslims in general) were up in arms. It was the Egyptian president Jamal Abdul Nasser who started the idea of Arab nationalism and got the whole world to think of the most important Islamic lands as ARAB lands. Now, even Muslims like you and many others think the same! Everyone from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia is guilty of complacence in this case. There is no such thing as Arabs (even though the nationalistic bigots would have us believe there is). There are only Muslims who are divided by petty notions of nationhood. Look at many of the silly Iraqis; they don’t mind being occupied by the West. They don’t care for the humiliation of occupation. They dismiss every problem and abuse as mere “setbacks” that they need to overcome in their quest for democracy. Even many of those fighting the occupation, they don’t have a wider mission, they’re fighting for their little slice of the Islamic world and they don’t care for anything or anyone else. We’re in a real mess yet we all try to bury our heads in the sand and use the excuse that we need to worry about our “own” people not Arabs, Afghan or Chechens!

Xarragow xanuun ma leh, my dear. If it’s too expensive, sell the car and walk. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the “pain”.

I’m glad I didn’t know any of your parents when you guys were born. I would have been asked to change some of those stinking nappies! In 1983, I have just discovered girls and was break dancing and Moon Walking to MJ’s Billy Jean. Damn I feel old, man. In fact, I’m so old and forgetful I just noticed OG Girl’s name! I wonder if she worked out who I am though? :rolleyes:

Why is it everything you feel uncomfortable about you attribute to racism? Population control is a valid idea. Yes, we don’t agree with it as Muslims but what you have to ask yourself is this; does it make sense? It’s not only about FOOD; it’s about education and health too. Man does his best to formulate laws and practises that will make his life and those of others easier. Lets leave the West out of the equation for a minute; let’s look at parents in Asia and Africa. I can foresee a scenario of a woman getting pregnant with her tenth child in India (or Rwanda) and because she does not have IMAN, she’ll be reproaching herself for getting pregnant yet again! The father will probably do the same. Would you say such a couple are racist towards their own offspring? Family planning is not an idea invented by the West; it has always been there on some individual level. Don’t agree with it, give reasons for not agreeing with it but please stop blaming every bad thing in the world on racism. This conspiracy stuff and victim culture is very undignified.

What people say and what people do are two totally different things. A young man would talk about marrying a young, single, virgin girl. While a young girl would talk about marrying a young (ish), educated and responsible man. It does not always follow that either gets what they want. Young Somali men would not want to marry single mothers because they assume they would be cheated, they’ll be at a disadvantage with an experienced woman who is set on her ways. That does not mean some of them do not eventually marry single mothers. I suspect the main reason why single guys do not marry single mothers is to do with the circles both parties mingle in than any preconceived ideas or perceptions.

NGONGE .. let me ask you, which country do you exactly come from, or in which country were you brought up? Born in Burco, raised in the gulf and brainwashed in the UK. But my heart belongs to the People’s Republic of Congo.

I think most Somali guys would offer to help a damsel in distress if it was outside the supermarket they worked in. Inside, is a totally different story! It puts them at a disadvantage. They probably had to deal with many members of the “ Why are you blocking my view Farax” brigade. Once bitten, twice shy I would guess.

It's 04.10 am here yet there seem to be lots of people still logged on! For many of them, it's also 04.10 am! I've got a doctor's note, I'm a certified insomniac, what the hell is your excuse? I bet nobody is here to answer my question. The lights are on but nobody is home, huh?

You need only look at their physical appearances to answer that one sis.. True. Men don't wear makeup! :rolleyes:

I wonder what you would have done had you been in his place!

Sophist, I'm not sure what your point really is, brother. 'The intellectual crisis of the Somali Youth'? You seem to have some sort of point that you're trying to convey but it's just not getting through to me! What the hell does the title of the thread mean? Do all Somali youth have to be 'intellectuals'? I'm assuming that's what you're saying (because you've compared them to other nations). Are all Sudanese youth intellectuals (are most of them? 40%? 20%?). Like I said, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, but I took the liberty of making some assumptions of my own as to what your thread (rant) relates to. I think, in simple, crystal clear english, what you're questioning is the wisdom of the Somali youth. You're wondering why things that seem really obvious and clear to you don't seem that obvious to others! How can educated and evidently intelligent people sit around and spend hours discussing the pros and cons of a Farax's/Xalimo's choice in clothes? How could they waste their time comparing a Playstation to an X-Box?(I hear X-Box's are best by the way). There is no intellectual way of discussing the above mentioned topics (well, there is but it would be too false and contrived). It's trivia, humans like to discuss trivia. There is no harm in it. It's main stream. The lowest common denominator! Trivia is something all can agree on. Some of those taking part in these threads are interested in poetry, literature, science and philosophy. However, it would be very silly to assume that ALL would have the same interests or the mental capacities to take part in such discussions. We're all different yet we're all the same. The beauty of it all is that someone who a few minutes ago was posting to a thread about 'Best Chat Up Lines' would now be seriously replying to a thread about "The Fall of Western Civilisations." (I'm not sure if either thread really exists). Intellectuals are a lonely lot.

Cost of living: lets just say that some of the guys I know who work for the police there and for private companies get between 2000 to 4000 dhs per month. The exchange rate from US$ to UAE Dirhams is 3.671(you can work it out yourself, it’s a fixed exchange rate). Job Opportunities: For highly educated graduates there are many job opportunities in Dubai but you’re better off applying from abroad (unless you know someone that knows someone). Salaries in this case are totally different to the ones quoted above. If you’re lucky, you’ll get a villa and a car plus annual travel tickets “home”. Tourist Expenses: Well, that depends on how long you’re planning to stay and where. It also depends on how much your planning to spend on gold and all the cheap products you can buy there. Lets assume you’re staying in a hotel (there are plenty of Somali hotels in Dubai these days). The cost for most of them is between 90 to 150 dhs per night (not expensive at all). Food is even cheaper, you’ll eat until you can’t eat no more and you’ll still have enough money left. There is a city centre and there are several big malls. You can visit Jumira beach, or the gold souq (where all the Somalis are). Sharjah is only half an hour away by car (taxis are cheap) and Abu Dhabi is about an hour and a half away (could be quicker). Was that of any use to you?

^^^^^^^^Pathetic^^^^^^ I said the exact same thing earlier when a pigeon flew over me and left me a nice gift.

Heh. I know, Ameenah. I was just teasing. Dictionary.com defines culture as the following. cul·ture P Pronunciation Key (k l ch r) n. 1. a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought. b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty. c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture. d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization. Intellectual and artistic activity and the works produced by it.

One word, lots of people! gissa a song, love.

I sense a disturbance in the force, Obi Wan! Or was it a bit of sarcasm?

There are rules which people accept as being right and just then there are practices, which are the realities that exist. All Somalis, as Muslims, will agree that praying is a duty but not all would pray. The cases I’ve mentioned above follow a similar line. I suspect that all Somalis know that bad behaviour and swearing in front of children is wrong, but the reality is that the majority do it. Those that don’t will at least tolerate it. It’s not something that’s exclusive to Somalis of course; other cultures suffer from it too. But, in our case we ACTUALLY tolerate it (or give the impression that we do). As I said in an earlier post, most of these things are born out of the lack of direction that we seem to have. There are no reminders for people of our culture. The original Somali culture might not condone any of these practises but the current prevalent culture does. In the past, the lines and borders of Somali life were clearer but now it’s all one big blurr. This is why people “prefer” other cultures to their own. This might I add has nothing to do with conflict and war, it’s the fact that we’ve become lazy (or maybe we’re confused). We’re not adding anything new to the society. Where is our Somali media? We don’t have films and soap operas that tell stories about good and evil, thus reminding those who forgot of their obligations. We don’t have enough news that covers things other than politics. We don’t have documentaries that paint a picture of Somalia in the past and Somalia now. Even the poets are not as inspiring as they used to be. The lack of all this leads people to go their own way, creating their own version of Somali culture. Having a free hand to do so with no condemnation of guidance, in more cases than not, usually leads to the practices I’ve mentioned above (maybe I should say LED). And breath....

NGONG Whats wrong with having a 14 year old chat to his elders. In th era where 'mentoring' 'role models' are common features of conversation regarding the downfall of Somali youth, am surprised that you have a problem with interaction between young and old. And mothers throwing obsenity at tehir children is not something encourage by dhaqan iyo deenba. Most mothers I know don't display such behaviour, so I don't see how that can be generalised or considered a Somali tradition. Nothing wrong with a 14-year-old sitting with his elders, but when he starts acting as if he’s one of them is the problem. It’s great that Somali culture encourages kids to speak their minds in the presence of adults; however, the lines of what’s right and polite and what’s rude have been blurred. As for the mothers swearing at their kids, hey I didn’t make that one up. It’s a fact of life in Somali society. Swearing and habar are tolerated. In fact, they’re the norm. What would you call something that’s repeated and replicated by a society? I personally would call it a tradition. I’m surprised you have not seen it! I seriously am! Somali culture has its good points, most outweigh its bad points but we all conveniently decide to ignore them and pretend that none of it exists.

No it is not inferior by any way. I love everything about our culture, the food (yum!!) the manners, the importance of family, our music, the beautful poetry and literature and i love my diric. The manners? What manners are these? The ones that allow a little 14 year old to sit amongst his elders and talk to them as if they’re his best friends? The way mothers when they get angry with their infants would swear and use obscene language and “habar”? The way a total stranger would feel it’s his/her right to know everything about you (from your age to the amount of money you get paid at work)? All the above is not even the result of the war or the disintegration of Somali society. ** Sigh **