^^ Of course they do, J11. But the question was how and which interpretation if Islam? Is it the Khilafah as Truth Seeker and Yusuf state or is it The Shari’ah law on a small scale (Somali scale). Which “madhab†would you prefer to follow when you say “ Lakom diinikom wa liya deen� There are lots of different interpretation of Islam and lots of ways of applying it. For example, the Salafis believe that the best and most correct system of government is ISLAM (as do most other Muslims) but in Kuwait, the Salafis are part of the “democratic†process! It seems to have been approved by some of the top scholars. So, as you can see, we all agree that Islam has the potential of being the best form of government but which Islam are we talking about? I’m not asking for a big piece on the subject, a summary will suffice.

^^^^ They were rhetorical questions, saaxib. The point was made in the paragraph that followed. Still, I’ll answer them and say that for most of them the reply would be: Not that many. DA, I totally agree but those that memorise the Koran by heart are also important. The point I was trying to make (and seem to have failed in making) is that in my acquaintances, relatives and friends not many could claim to know (or remember) much of the basics of their religion. I’m assuming mine is not an exceptional case either. Damsel in Deep Shine (had to modify the name a little, sis), seems to have got the message and covered an area she personally saw a problem in. In due course, I hope to address another. Are there any from that list which you feel strongly about and would like to cover?

How many people that you know memorise the whole Koran off by heart? How many would instantly remember the pillars of Islam if you asked them? How many get mixed up between what is cultural and what is Islamic? How many pray? How many are good to their parents? How many encourage good deeds and discourage the bad? How many know/remember their Islamic history? How many help the needy? How many have patience? How many listen to good advice? How many give to their relatives, the poor and travellers? How many issue random fatwas? How many jealously guard Islam? How many make mistakes? How many are more knowledgeable than you? How many are less knowledgeable than you? How many are on your level? How many do you want to help? How many do you ask for help? How many are beyond help? I asked many questions and I would be very surprised if the reply to most these questions was in the affirmative. Those who know and would want to argue amongst themselves know what they’re getting themselves into, and, in most cases; they know what they’re talking about. But, how about those that don’t know and are getting confused by reading all this stuff? This is not somebody’s living room, people. This is a website on the Internet that is accessible to all. In addition to discussing “advanced†Islam and its relation to politics, life and other specific issues all the time lets not forget to go back to basics from time to time. I don’t have anything ready right now or I would have posted it. I’m hoping the brothers and sisters that usually post on this section can help me out here. Thanks.

^^^^^ :confused: :confused: BINHAM, BIN LADEN all sound the same to me, sister(you are a female, right?).

DO NOT TAKE THE TOUR BUS IN DECEMBER! If you do, make sure you sit in the lower deck. The easiest way to do things is if you visit the tourist office in the Airport you land in. Pick up a few leaflets and magazines that will tell you and give you instructions on how to find the best places in London. Alternatively, you could ask your family to take you there. By the way, why limit yourself to London? Go touring in the whole of the UK. Alas, as the brother above said, London is not the liveliest of places in December.

QL, xarragow xanuun ma leh, saaxib Still, I can’t see the difference between changing something surgically and applying full makeup or having a piercing or a tattoo. They’re all alterations to someone’s body. Ok, some might be permanent alteration but the principle is still the same. I’ll be a romantic old fool and say that the person inside will still be the same so why bother changing the outside!

^^^^I was advised by my brief not to comment on this topic, sir. Any comments you might have about the size of my flag or otherwise should be directed to her. :cool:

while Jama (another freind)who is born n raised at Hargeisa tells me that is and considers himself a Somali not a Somalilander. Then there is Aisha ( a freind´s gf )who is born at Borama but was raised in Mogadishu n considers herself a "PURE" somalilander, though her Nolander and puntlander freinds consider her "Mogadishu girl". Then There is Abdiwahid who is born at Buhodle and considers himself a Somalilander, not to forget Jama born n raised at Hargeisa who considers himself a 1st class Somalilander, last but not least there Ahmed born n raised at Burco who sometimes considers himself not ONLY a Somalilander but it´s backbone but sometimes Somali considers himself n acts as a Somali. It’s not just you and everyone here who are confused, saaxib. Sounds like your friend Jama is more confused than us all (or do you have two friends named Jama who were born in Hargeisa?) :rolleyes: Or maybe, just maybe, this is some “confused†way to prove a “confused†theory that you have. I’m confused now, saaxib. Please rescue me from this confusing paradox!

^^^ Jazak Allah Kheer, saaxib. I would hope this bit of advice is not only to Salafi but also to us all.

Last one for today قال الاصمعي صوت صÙير البلـبلي هيج قلب الثـــــــملي المـــــاء والزهر معا مع زهر لحظ المـقلي وانت ياسيدلي وسيدي وموللي Ùكم Ùكم تيمني غزيل عقـــــــيقلي قطÙته من وجنة من لثم ورد الخجلي Ùقال لا لا لا لا لا وقد غدا مهر ولي والخـــــــــــــــــــــــــــود مالت طربا من Ùعل هذا الــــــــــــــــــــــــرجل وولولت وولولت ولي ولي ياويللي Ùقــــلت لا تولولي وبين اللؤلؤلي قالت له حـــــين كذا انهض وجد بالنـــــــوقلي ÙˆÙتية سقونني قهوة كالعســـللي شممـــتها بانÙÙŠ ازكى من القرنÙلي ÙÙŠ وسط بســـــــــــــــــــــــتان حلي بالزهر والســــــــــــــــــــــــــــرور لي والعود دن دن دنلي والطبل طب طب طبلي طبطبطب طبطبطب طبطبطب طبطبلي والســق٠سق سق ســـــقلي والرقـــــــــص قد طاب الي شوا شوا وشاهشو على ورق سÙرجلي وغرد القمري يصيح من ملل ÙÙŠ مللي ولو تراني راكبا على حــــــمار اهزلي يمشي على ثلاثة كمشية العرنجــــــــلي والناس ترجم جملي ÙÙŠ السوق بالقلقللي والكل كعكع كعكع خلÙÙŠ ومن حويلللي لكن مشيتها ربا من خشية العقنقلي الى لقاء ملك معظم مبــــــــجلي يأمرلي بخلعة حمرا كادمدملي اجر Ùيها ماشيا مبغدد لذيلي انا الاديب الالمعي من حي ارض الموصلي نظمة قطــــــعا زخرÙا يعجز عنه الادبلي اقول ÙÙŠ مطلعها صوت صÙير البلبلي

خلاص ما دام ابتديت..خليني اكمل يقول امير الشعراء: برز الثعلب يوماÙÙŠ شعار الواعظينا Ùمشى ÙÙŠ الارض يهذي ويسب الماكرينا ويقول الحمد لله اله العالمينا. ياعباد الله توبوا Ùهو كه٠التائبينا. وازهدواÙÙŠ الطير ان العيش عيش الزاهدينا. واطلبوا الديك يؤذن لصلاة الصبح Ùينا. Ùأتى الديك رسول من امام الناسكينا. عرض الامر عليه وهو يرجو ان يلينا. Ùاجاب الديك عذرا ياأضل االمهتدينا. بلغ الثعلب عني عن جدودي الصالحينا. عن ذوي التيجان ممن دخل البطن اللعينا. انهم قالوا وخير القول قول العارÙينا. مخطيء من ظن يوما ان للثعلب دينا. For those that can’t read Arabic: This is a poem about a fox and a rooster. Apparently, once upon a time, a fox went out to preach! He cursed the wrongdoers and asked them to repent. He advised them to shun birds and told them that the good life is that which spurns all temptation. He then asked them to seek out the rooster and request that he calls the morning prayers. A messenger from the Imam of the devout (The Fox) went out to see the rooster and present him with this request (in the hope that he’ll relent and agree). The rooster replied “ Pardon me, lost soul! Inform the Fox from me and from my virtuous ancestors; those of diadems, which perished in the cursed belly (The fox's belly); that they said (and those who know usually make the best sayings): misguided he who thought that a Fox has a religion! Hope this quick translation will suffice. I’m sure with a bit of time I could have made the whole thing rhyme ( not to an Ahmed Shouqi standard of course). PS The one before that was all about smiling.

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by NGONGE: As for QL’s question, we’ve gone a long way but I reckon the best system of government for Somalis is a brutal dictatorship. We’re at our best when we have something to moan about. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now why do you include yourself if I may ask? I'm not a great fan of our president, saaxib

Rahima, My snide remarks (if that’s how you decided to view them) were nothing but a question. I’ve seen this argument about Islamic systems of government being peddled about this forum for a while (seen it from you only twice, seen it from others many times). Like I said, it would be helpful if we could get your “interpretation†of this system of government. Don’t assume that we already know. After all, you don’t expect me to agree or disagree to your interpretation of this system of government when I don’t even know what it is, do you? As for reading the books, that’s something I’ll probably do in my spare time. It does not concern this discussion. In this discussion you made an assertion, now justify that assertion with an explanation of why you think the Islamic system of government is the right one. Don’t go on the defensive and take every comment made as an attack. It wasn’t an attack on you personally. It was an attack on the sort of lazy comments we seem to get on this forum when the topic is Islam. Arguments are made but are not backed up with any reasoning or evidence. Islam is the best way of life and governing! Hmmm, really? How? Why? Why do you assume that everyone is on the same boat as you and knows what you’re talking about? Again, this is not directed at you personally, sister. If you check other threads, I’ve already asked someone else the same question, twice! For some reason, I never seem to get any replies

I see the argument for an Islamic system being repeated in several threads on this website! Nobody seems to give details of how this Shariica system works though. It would be very nice if we could get an explanation of such a system given to us. :rolleyes: As for QL’s question, we’ve gone a long way but I reckon the best system of government for Somalis is a brutal dictatorship. We’re at our best when we have something to moan about.

Here is the full article: Muslim group: 'We are so sorry' for 9-11 It's first to take responsibility on eve of 3rd anniversary of attacks on USA. www.freemuslims.org Sep 10, 2004 This September 11 marks the third unforgettable anniversary of the worst mass murder in American history. After September 11, many in the Muslim world chose denial and hallucination rather than face up to the sad fact that Muslims perpetrated the 9-11 terrorist acts and that we have an enormous problem with extremism and support for terrorism. Many Muslims, including religious leaders, and "intellectuals" blamed 9-11 on a Jewish conspiracy and went as far as fabricating a tale that 4000 Jews did not show up for work in the World Trade Centre on 9-11. Yet others blamed 9-11 on an American right wing conspiracy or the U.S. Government which allegedly wanted an excuse to invade Iraq and "steal" Iraqi oil. After numerous admissions of guilt by Bin Laden and numerous corroborating admissions by captured top level Al-Qaida operatives, we wonder, does the Muslim leadership have the dignity and courage to apologise for 9-11? If not 9-11, will we apologise for the murder of school children in Russia? If not Russia, will we apologise for the train bombings in Madrid, Spain? If not Spain, will we apologise for suicide bombings in buses, restaurants and other public places? If not suicide bombings, will we apologise for the barbaric beheadings of human beings? If not beheadings, will we apologize for the rape and murder of thousands of innocent people in Darfour? If not Darfour, will we apologise for the blowing up of two Russian planes by Muslim women? What will we apologise for? What will it take for Muslims to realise that those who commit mass murder in the name of Islam are not just a few fringe elements? What will it take for Muslims to realise that we are facing a crisis that is more deadly than the Aids epidemic? What will it take for Muslims to realise that there is a large evil movement that is turning what was a peaceful religion into a cult? Will Muslims wake up before it is too late? Or will we continue blaming the Jews and an imaginary Jewish conspiracy? The blaming of all Muslim problems on Jews is a cancer that is destroying Muslim society from within and it must stop. Muslims must look inward and put a stop to many of our religious leaders who spend most of their sermons teaching hatred, intolerance and violent jihad. We should not be afraid to admit that as Muslims we have a problem with violent extremism. We should not be afraid to admit that so many of our religious leaders belong behind bars and not behind a pulpit. Only moderate Muslims can challenge and defeat extremist Muslims. We can no longer afford to be silent. If we remain silent to the extremism within our community then we should not expect anyone to listen to us when we complain of stereotyping and discrimination by non-Muslims; we should not be surprised when the world treats all of us as terrorists; we should not be surprised when we are profiled at airports. Simply put, not only do Muslims need to join the war against terror, we need to take the lead in this war. As to apologising, we will no longer wait for our religious leaders and "intellectuals" to do the right thing. Instead, we will start by apologising for 9-11. We are so sorry that 3,000 people were murdered in our name. We will never forget the sight of people jumping from two of the highest buildings in the world hoping against hope that if they moved their arms fast enough that they may fly and survive a certain death from burning. We are sorry for blaming 9-11 on a Jewish or right wing conspiracy. We are so sorry for the murder of more than three hundred school children and adults in Russia. We are so sorry for the murder of train passengers in Spain. We are so sorry for all the victims of suicide bombings. We are so sorry for the beheadings, abductions, rapes, violent Jihad and all the atrocities committed by Muslims around the world. We are so sorry for a religious education that raised killers rather than train people to do good in the world. We are sorry that we did not take the time to teach our children tolerance and respect for other people. We are so sorry for not rising up against the dictators who have ruled the Muslim world for decades. We are so sorry for allowing corruption to spread so fast and so deep in the Muslim world that many of our youth lost hope. We are so sorry for allowing our religious leaders to relegate women to the status of forth class citizens at best and sub-humans at worse. We are so sorry. www.freemuslims.org Special to World Tribune.com (It's the website of The Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism, a nonprofit organisation made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era. The Coalition was created to eliminate broad base support for Islamic extremism and terrorism and to strengthen secular democratic institutions in the Middle East and the Muslim World by supporting Islamic reformation efforts. The Coalition promotes a modern secular interpretation of Islam, which is peace-loving, democracy-loving and compatible with other faiths and beliefs. The Coalition's efforts are unique; it is the only mainstream American-Muslim organization willing to attack extremism and terrorism unambiguously. Unfortunately most other Muslim leaders believe that in terrorist organisations, the end justifies the means.)

This morning, I woke up early and went out. The streets were unusually busy. I went to the high street. It was busy too. I saw a queue of people outside a shop! Why was there a line outside this shop? I assumed there was a sale. I joined the line. I wondered if it was women’s shop. I looked at the shop sign. It didn’t mention anything about women. I wanted to ask the guy in front of me what was he planning to buy from the shop. I didn’t want to look silly. I didn’t ask. I looked behind me and noticed that the line was getting bigger. There were two women behind me. They were talking about their children. Something to do with schools and leaving things to the last minute! I noticed that they were looking at me, straight in the face! I realised that I was also looking at them, straight in the face! I quickly turned round and looked straight ahead. I felt someone touch my shoulder. I worried that those women were going to start a fight with me. I quickly shouted “ I’m sorry for staring, ok?â€. It wasn’t the two women. It was another woman. My next door neighbour. She asked me what was I doing in that line. I was about to answer her when the two women behind me interrupted. They told her to go and join the end of the line. She told them that she’s only here to talk to me and that she’s not planning to buy anything. They didn’t like the way she replied to them. One of them whispered some sarcastic remark under her breath. My neighbour shouted “ what did you just say?†. The woman said “ nothingâ€. My neighbour said “ you’re very rudeâ€. The woman replied “ no, you’re rude for jumping the queueâ€. My neighbour said “ I didn’t jump the queue, I only came to ask this guy why was he standing in line for a shop that sells school uniforms when his kids don’t even go to school?â€. I almost fainted. I lied and said “ I’m planning to buy stuff for my nephewsâ€. Nobody heard me. The women were still arguing. I told my next door neighbour to stop arguing with them. Told her that I’ve changed my mind and didn't’ want to buy anything and that we should just go. She refused! She insisted that I stay in line and that she’ll stay with me. She stood there looking at the women and daring them to make a move. They backed down. She stood next to me and started to t

Sue, I seem to have confused myself and confused you with me by my last comments. In talking about Democracy and Freedom being old concepts, I was talking about their origins in ancient Greece and Rome, etc.. I believe you’re talking about modern capitalist democracies. You are right in criticising the shortcomings of such governmental systems. But, you seem to mix the ideology with the details! I’m also a bit lost on your objection to the world’s lone superpower trying to dictate and force the rest to follow its way. I don’t think that the actions of that country conflict in anyway with it’s democratic principles! After all, it’s only obliged to do the best to benefit its own citizens and not the rest of the world. I agree that corruption and lies do exist but they’re minuscule when compared to the type of corruption and decay you would find in dictatorships. If democracy is all about giving the people the power to decide, then modern capitalists’ societies do adhere to these rules. The propaganda and campaigning that comes with that might influence things but, ultimately, the choice still remains with the people. The recent Spanish elections is testimony to that; everyone was expecting the government of Aznar (sp?) to be returned but the terrorist attack that occurred a day before the elections and the reaction of the government to it changed things. Communism is the opposite of capitalism (since we’re talking about capitalist democracies here). In fact, many of the Marxist theories were formulated as an alternative (reaction) to capitalism. I don’t have a problem with freedom and equality. I have a problem with the Marxists interpretation of equality. It disregards ability, inheritance, etc. All the means of production are owned by the state (the means of production would include lands and many other private properties). The state dispenses it equally to the populace! At least that’s how it says in the theories. As you can see, I’m being very brief in my explanation of all these concepts. I have yet to mention Islam and it’s systems of government. To be brutally honest, I’m lost. I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at. Is it democracy in its general sense? Freedom in its general sense? Capitalist democracies (let’s just call it capitalism to make things easier)? The conduct of modern western governments? Or Are you just asking for the best system of government?

^^^ Somali women tell jokes? :eek: :eek:

قال السماء’ كئيبة ! وتجهÙÙŽÙٌّّّّّما قلت’ ابتسم يكÙÙŠ التجهم ÙÙŠ السماء قال الصبا ولي ! Ùقلت له ابتسم لن يرجع الأس٠الصبا المتصرما قال التي كانت سمائي ÙÙŠ الهوي صارت لنÙسي ÙÙŠ الغرام جهنما خانت عهودي بعد ما ملكتها قلبي، Ùكي٠اطيق ان اتبسما ØŸ قلت : ابتسم واطرب Ùلو قارنتها قضيت عمرك كله متألما قال الليالي جرعتني علقما قلت : ابتسم ولن جرعت العلقما Ùعل غيرك ان رآك مرنما طرح الكائبة جانبا Ùˆ ترنما اتراك تغنم بالتبرم درهما أم انت تخسر بالبشاشة مغنما؟ يا صاح ØŒ لا خطر على Ø´Ùتيك ان تتلثما Ùˆ الوجهأن يتحطما Ùأضحك Ùإن الشهب تضحك Ùˆ الدجي متلاطم ØŒ ولذا نحب الانجما قال البشاشة ليس تسعد كائناً يأتي الى الدنيا ويذهب مرغما قلت ابتسم ما دام بينك Ùˆ الردي شبر Ùإنك بعد لن تتبسما

My three-year-old daughter and my two year old had a fight yesterday. I usually stop them from fighting and tell them that it’s wrong. But, yesterday, I was tired. I took them both to the kitchen and gave each of them a knife. It turns out, they were not that angry after all. It was only a bad mood that had passed by the time we got to the kitchen. Learn from my wise girls, people. Anyway, back to the argument on hand. Hang on a minute and let me get my knives: Lets go back to the post that started it all, shall we? Ok, i promised myself that i wouldn't comment. I would leave well alone, but i simply can't. Baranbaro, abaayo what were u thinking? If all u wanted to do was become one of the "baro" people, why couldn't u have chosen a better name than infestious pests that dwell in the most disgusting places imaginable? My sister i am by no means attacking u, and if u find my meddling troublesome do forgive me. But why couldn't u be cambaro? Or even tiimbaro?! For god's sake, u weren't even sure of the spelling, so why bother with it(!) I'm just a fellow sister that wants what is best for u, since everyone seems to be smiling at u and applauding ur inginuity. All these guys oo kuu sacab tumaayo should be ashamed. They know themselves, and double shame on them As you can see, the last line in that post more or less invited the Baros to reply. I don’t think their initial intention was to gang up on the sister. I think once the ganging up issue was mentioned, they did. The others joined in and took sides, as they usually do. The sarcasm and subtle attacks started. It’s a cyber war that none of you are likely to win. Maybe the admin should also set up a section called “ BARO family VS NOBARO family†where we can all go and watch you pick up fights with each other and blame it on the Somali language, females and other such nonsense. At least it would keep me amused on slow Fridays like this one. PS Admin, if you decide to do anything with this thread, just close it, don’t delete it please. The artistic display of Somali thought found on this thread is priceless. :rolleyes:

Sue, Freedom and Democracy are not modern concepts. You’re using the dictionary’s definitions of both words and trying to apply them to the modern Western world. Democracy is derived from the Greek for “Power of the peopleâ€. The idea is for people to reach a consensus on every decision they make. Like you said, they can choose representatives to make those decisions for them. The example you used and argued about shows the shortcomings of democracy. However, that’s just one instance where democracy fails. It does not mean however that in the next American election the same mistakes will be repeated. Will democracy be declared to be working fine then? Democracy and Freedom are ideals that people strive to get as near as possible to. They’re not realities and they’re never likely to become ones. Like you said, it’s impossible to have total freedom. To have total freedom you will have to be free from all external influences. Not just in the physical sense either. Religion for example could be regarded as an external influence. How could you be totally free if you’re restricting yourself by your beliefs? This is probably why we’re “ The Slaves†of Allah. The modern (or maybe it has always been thus) understanding of Freedom could be better interpreted by your ability to talk in a crowd where your voice is loud and clear but not loud enough to drown the voices of others. Sounds crazy of course and there will always be people who scream louder than everyone else, but the aim is for everyone to “feel†that they’re being heard. As things stand, current modern democracies and freedoms are the nearest thing we have to a perfect world. Of course there are abuses, corruption and lies. However, every once in a while, these democracies give the people the chance to catch out and get rid of the corrupt rulers. They also give them the chance to have a say on the major issues (such as the current referendum being carried out in most European countries to decide on the European constitution). If people don’t take part in such processes it could hardly be blamed on the concept of democracy, could it? Somebody mentioned Socialism, Communism and Marxism (All are more or less the same ideologies by the way). The major fault of such ideologies is that they focus heavily on the economic side of things. They aim to make everyone EQUAL! Everyone being equal in the way they’re treated sounds like a good and noble idea, however, everyone being equal in wealth and capacity is the pinnacle of unfairness in my humble opinion. In these ideologies everyone owns the means of production. There is no private ownership or wealth. It’s all for one and one for all! The style of government is dictatorial. The theories assume that fairness and good intentions are what would make this system work. It places too much trust on the faith and honesty of these dictators. Big open goal if I’ve ever seen one. I hear you say that the alternative is an Islamic system of government, what exactly is an Islamic system of government and how would it look like in practise in this modern world? I appreciate that my definitions of these political terms above are on the short side but I’m hoping that you’ve already got the background information and are able to follow what I’m trying to say here.

Check this thread out

. . . let's finilize da topic and get da hell out of here. As the restless man said to his wife while she was giving birth.

That goat I was talking about in my earlier posts had stopped flying and seems to be praying now. :rolleyes:

Thanks. I got it now. I clicked on "Skip intro" and when I didn't get anything, I assumed the site is still being built.