Northerner, It was a great result. Gerrard got all the praise again (deservedly so) but I've got to give some credit to Alonso for somehow helping the team to rediscover the old tradition of the Liverpool passing and moving. Here is to Alonso( and the rest of the team).

^^^ They are indeed.

^^^ It’s a great thread, dear. Don’t get bullied into asking for it to be deleted. I know you’ve said you’ve had these questions when you were a child, but there are many adults who have similar questions and would not ask. This thread of yours is an illustration of the openness of Islam and receptiveness to all kinds of genuine queries. Don’t let the blind and self-righteous intimidate you.

There has been criticism of Sir Richard Burton’s translation by many Arabic writers and critics. I’ve read about this guy in the past and if memory serves me correctly, legend has it that he spoke over twenty-five languages, of which Somali was one (he allegedly visited Somaliland once). Some argue that Mr Burton was a racist by nature and cite many passages in his books as evidence (not just the Arabian nights). This, though I have no evidence to back me up, I suspect to be true, and having read Alf Leila wa Leila in Arabic I’ve noticed the slight differences in translation. Still, in spite of all of that, it remains a great story (or stories).

^^^^ I would never dream of putting words in your mouth, saaxib. You’re articulate enough as it is.

^^^ So you're saying Nationalist is half right, right?

Back as promised. On your first point, yes I seem to have got mixed up between the points you’ve made and those that Aniga made. Your point about “dependency theory†and the consequences of the money drying up is a good one. I have no concrete answers to that one, only reservations. The hope being that a government and functioning state will be in place to replace or at least plug the void created by the eventual end of this trend. I’m assuming that this trend will not come to a sudden halt but will rather evaporate gradually! It’s all conjecture of course, but I would hope that people’s ingenuity and instinct for survival would find a way to cushion this mammoth setback and keep the grating wheel of Somali life turning (albeit slower than before). Your second point is a more general one. I’ve read it; reread it and then a third time! I can see your point regarding the neo-con’s agenda and how it might change the world order (if it were to succeed). However, I fail to see how the secondary impact of it (if any at all) would effect the daily lives of Somali migrants or the process of migration in general. Surely if we’re saying that the vision of the advocates and theorists of neo-conservatism were to come true, we’re saying that they’ll CONTROL the whole world and impose their values and beliefs on it’s systems of governance! I realise that Huntington spoke about the “Clash of Civilisations†and envisaged a world that was divided into three blocks (Western, Chinese and European). However, these theories were made in the early nineties and have been supplanted since. Now, the neocons of Paul Wolfwitz and co are the ones in the driving seat and their vision, though borrows a lot from Huntington is even more extreme! Their success in the Iraq war, triumph over “old Europe†in the Security Council and victory in Afghanistan have given them the satisfaction and belief that the American “empire†(or rather Republic) is already here. In political and military terms, they don’t foresee any significant opposition from any part of the world (save the “terroristsâ€)! Theirs is an ideological struggle, which by the way, they believe to be well on its way to bearing fruits! Now, back to the case of our Somali immigrants and their ability to move and settle in “profitable†lands and it’s relation to the changing world! Here, I’m completely dumfounded as to the bases of your analysis. Why should any of this effect the ability of workers to migrate? Surely, if the neocons succeed in realising their vision, then they’ll be just another empire like the many that preceded it in history. In fact, very similar to all the ones you’ve mentioned. In all of those, foreigners migrated to these power bases in search of a good life and economic fulfilment! From the Jews who went to live and work in Istanbul under the Ottoman rule, the various Europeans who moved to work, study and live under Islamic rule in Andalusia, to the Somalis and many others who moved to the various trade centres of the British empire. I should even add the many Germans who moved to the United States after the Second World War! The politics has changed, the powers changed but people’s search for a good life and flocking to the centres of power and trade never has and I see no reason why it should now! Was your point to do with Islam and the neocon’s total abhorrence of it? When you say “its illusionary to believe that Somalis can determine their stay in the Diasporaâ€, is that because they are Muslim? Of course the International system will determine our migration and safety, but why do you presume it will be a negative outcome? What signs have you detected in the American, libertarian, and very capitalist system that hint at the fact that migration, trade and opportunities of work for Somalis (and any other foreigners) will die out? It is all historical sxb. You should peruse the history of Cordoba and/or that of Spanish Adalusia, and corrolate the dominant empire of that period to today's American empire. The same advances Umar Ibn Khatab made to Europe are being made to the Islamic world by a civilisation of a different sort. We don't live outside history but within it. Considering the fight of the city of mosques, aren't we witnessing another crusade? Ah! The “crusadeâ€, it is about Islam then? I would appreciate it if you expand on this point, saaxib.

Originally posted by Xu: quote:Originally posted by besbaaso: if u luv arabian lit. u have probably read the "alif layla wa layle" or the one thousand and one nights tales.....i luve arabic fairy tales....found an old copy at this tiny book store near the university....it is called tales from the arabian nights....by n.j.dawood.... I love that too. But have you noticed that they are a tad racist and misogynistic, even if it is related by a woman? All the women are committing adultery with black evil ugly men. All the villains seem to be black? :eek: When I was younger I used to love the story of Qays and Leila. However, such mindless unjustified love doesn't do it for me anymore. That's why I can't stand Romeo, both these men were in love with Love. Obsessions like that don't move me emotionally. I can't sympathise with someone's love, if I don't understand it. The blacks in the stories are black slaves. I wont go into the morality of it, however, you need to remember that these stories were written at a time when slavery was rife in the Muslim world and most slaves were black. Ergo, black slaves were mentioned in a bad light. لا تشتري العبد الا والعصا معه ان العبيد لانجاس مناكيد الكلب كلب ولو طوقته بالذهب والعبد عبد ولو عليته بالرتب The above verses, subject to the correction of Al Motanabi fans here, were, if memory doesn’t fail me, written about a black ruler of Egypt. The poet is being outright racist here and saying that a dog will remain a dog even if you put a golden leash on it, likewise, a slave will always be a slave despite the elevation of his position.

Alle-ubaahne, your total hatred for anything western seems to have weakened your ability to read, comprehend, convey or understand any pieces written in English (mostly those written by your good self might I add). Adeer, waxan aad qorayso wax macqool maaha! Fikrada ama mabda’a aad sheeganayso ano kolay waxba Kaman fahmin. Hadalkaga o dhan nac nac eyo mouran ayaan o arka. Marka, bal yaanan danbi kugo galan o khalad kuu fahmin; fadlan, manta laga bilbo af Somali kaleya wax ku qor! En kasto afko ego adagahay wan es khasbi eyo dadaali doona si aan o fahmo calacalkagan badan waxad ola jiidid. Silence, Dhaqan Celis as you explain it and understand it, is a good idea that I have no objection to, saaxib. As Somalis, kids (and adults) need to reacquaint themselves with their country, language and culture. This might have been the original message of Dhaqan Celis, but nowadays the whole idea seems to have mutated into more than simply going home and finding out about your culture, at times, there is even an “us†and “them†tilt.

I read it all, saaxib. But, if you keep going on about it, it will never end! If you think that’s what she should have done in private and believe it to be the correct way to do things, practise what you preach and send her a private message. Who’s right and who’s wrong doesn’t matter right now. It’s too late. Saaxib, ado entaad wax kala celin laheed wabad ka si daraysa, say wayah adiga duqa?

Originally posted by ORGILAQE: We are not just who we think we are today; we are what we have been historically Jamaal I love it I love that comment you made.Yes i do agree with you 100% and it is because i hold suc views that i believe we should look to Somalia as future salvation not outside it as that iis the only place where as somalis no one can tell us we are foreign!.We have to build it so can return to it and those that will have to build it are my generation who will lay the foundation and the generation after us who will have to make it work efficiently.That is why i wanted to gauge tthe minds of the somali youth and all NGONGE seems to be doing is taking us of course.Bro Ngonge can you add anything positive to this argument if not could you kindly give those that wish to participate a chance,poisining their minds is not an option. Jamal, yours requires a longer reply, which I'll write when I get home. Orgi, I believe I was being positive in my own little way, saaxib. I humbly request that you point out the “poison†that you speak of. I’ve given you my realistic take on things, not my dreams or hopes, not my desire but what I believe is important. I didn’t expect many people to agree with it but I also did not expect to be accused of poisoning people, saaxib. Your knee-jerk comments resemble those of another proud and emotional nomad that I’ve had runs with in the past. You guys are proud of an idea and whenever someone points out the flaws in that idea you resort to cheap digs and disconsolate mutterings! The irony of course is to be found in the title of the thread. Heh. Comment on my words and refute my arguments, saaxib. Suck and spit out my poison for all to see. PROVE ME WRONG!

^^^^ Slow it down now, people. What do you hope to achieve by trying to “gang up†on the moderator in such a way? Those that feel aggrieved can PM her (yes, her not him) and discuss their differences in private. Moderators are not perfect, sometimes; they make mistakes (not saying that this was a mistake by the way). You don’t have to rip your shirts of and beat your chests every time a moderator does something you believe to be “wrongâ€. Anyway, an exercise of power every now and then is a healthy thing to have. Reminds us all that “big brother†is watching. Maybe that way, some people will moderate the language they use and keep their emotions in check. As for the topic, it is nothing but a storm in a teacup. Don’t panic and throw a hissy fit now, I bring good news. When the Day of Judgment comes, we’ll all be judged on our individual deeds not on what Mr Peter Ahmed and his ilk do.

Horrible injury is an understatement, saaxib. This is a sick, disgusting, vomit-inducing injury. Any person or people of a nervous disposition should not click on the link Viking provided. :eek: ** faints **

^^ We did well, didn't we? Let us enjoy the applause.

^^^^^

^^^ Tagalog, dear :cool: Kalispera, nomads Here is some of my Greek: Kalimira = Good morning Ime o NGONGE = I’m NONGE GE A SO NGONGE = HELLO NGONGE Ti kanis NGONGE = How are you NGONGE Poli kala, afkharisto = Very good, thank you Es I? = And you? Ime kala, afkharisto = I’m well, thank you Kalispera = Good afternoon Kalinikhta = Good night Ime ilanis = I’m Greek Poli oreos = very beautiful Meghalos = big Mikros = small Where are the Dutch people? Varoom Varoom you not take part in this lakar discussion? :rolleyes:

^^ Saaxib, I asked you this before and I ask you again (though I doubt it will make any difference), stop making assumptions and judgments about people. If you believe you have a strong case, state it and let it stand on its own feet rather than be built on accusations and judgements. If your comments are made in jest, that’s fine, though I fail to understand how you expect me to take any of your posts seriously! Of all the points you’ve made, the only one that I find myself agreeing with is the importance of language. For without it the whole thing becomes meaningless. However, your assertions about empty spiritual beings and the like are way off the mark. Somali culture and Islam is not the same thing. If you would like to discuss Islam that’s fine, however to confidently announce that the lack of Somali culture would also mean a lack of spiritual fulfilment is faulty and can be interpreted in a very shocking way. It’s almost as if you’re saying Somali culture is HOLY! Other than the language, what exactly is the Somali “dhaqan� As for the “celis†part, the return to the “dhaqan†of our ancestor’s culture, isn’t that an impossible dream? Culture (and language for that matter) are not static, they grow and evolve over time. This constant change and improvement is what keeps different cultures going. Yet, the patrons of “dhaqan celis†seem to want to hold on to the impossible dream of satisfying their interpretation of a bygone age! If we agree that cultures and languages do change and evolve, if we agree that Somalis outside of Somali have developed their own unique cultures, why then do we insist on peddling that tired old idea of “preserving†our Somali culture? It’s not a stuffed camel, saaxib. It’s what constitutes the arrangement of our every day lives. This, as I’m sure you’re perfectly aware will vary according to the place and environment we live in. The “reer magal†in Somalia, though understands and knows the ways of the nomads, doesn’t necessarily follow or believe everything the nomad does. Many aspects of the nomadic lives for the city dweller (and I’m still talking about Somalia here) are an amusing source of pride, however they’re not “things†the urbanite would dream of replicating in his daily life! Which culture is the more correct? Who says? Now, a plane ride away, there lives another city dweller. Another Somali who due to his surroundings, varying norms and new influences, looks back lovingly at the two previous examples as an amusing source of pride! To him, they’re in the past; he has moved on and acquired a newer culture. One that’s built on the same foundation but is complimented with all the new discoveries and additions of his new surroundings! Other than the lack of language, who says that his new culture is in anyway inferior to the previous two? As I said in my previous post, I believe the idea of “dhaqan celis†to be meaningless. It is not in anyway compatible with modern ways of life. Somalis do not rely on language and “culture†alone to preserve their identity. What preserve the Somali identity are the family unit and the group interactions. Somali children from those living in China to those living in the West all know about the Somali family and the way it operates. This, in my opinion is what needs looking into, not the redundant concept of an old culture! I understand of course that this is part of that culture, but this is the only part that’s important here. Speak Somali or don’t, act Somali or don’t you still are from a Somali family, you still belong to a Somali tribe/clan or sub clan. Some will say that none of this matters to the kids in the West, but I beg to differ. These kids might not speak the language, might not know many of the simple cultural habits but most have a basic idea of tribal links and meanings. Again, in talking about kids in the West, I’m only talking about those that have created their very own Somali culture. I’m not talking about the odd souls that have been assimilated into their host nations and do not mix with any Somalis of any kind. These kids will become adults and will invariably decide to marry someone who has something in common with them (in most cases). They’ll have to go through the ritual of marriage; they’ll have to find an “odey†or two to help them marry. They’ll have to follow the same traditions as those in Somalia. There is no escape from it. The stronger parts of Somali culture are overwhelming and are not easy to discard. These people might not be able to spit out tribal names and the complex quandary of how they all relate to each other, but they all will understand how important the family/clan/tribe is. Dhaqan celis on the other hand, would propose to introduce everything tribal into these kids (everything of which most is negative). The above needs to be read in relation to my earlier post. Hope it makes sense.

^^^ Heh. An assumption for an assumption, saaxib! Yes, I concede that at the moment there are huge amounts of money being sent home. This, as I’m sure you’ll agree is due to the large numbers of Somalis on the outside. This, as I’m again sure you’ll agree is a result of civil war! A stable Somalia, though poor, is unlikely to require such huge amounts of money. Nonetheless, your point (if I understand it correctly) is about the young generation of Somalis who forget the motherland and stop sending money home. This I still contest. I don’t have knowledge of the future, that’s the Almighty’s domain, but what I do have as a mere human is the ability to look at and learn from past examples. In this case, the examples of the past prove beyond doubt that many of those born and bred in the outside do at some point in their lives start in helping and sending money home. This has been the case with the old seamen in Europe and the many Somali families that resided in Arab countries (mainly Yemen) during Colonial rule. Their offspring picked up the habits, language and culture of the host countries but with time, they got back to what they knew to be home and fulfilled (for the most part) their familial duties. As for your second part about living in the West and your mention of the riddle of globalization, I think here at least, you’ve succumbed to the mistake of making a wild assumption while forgetting a fundamental part of Somali nature. We’re nomads, saaxib. Living in the West is not the be all and end all. Again, I’ll use historical precedents here and cite the Somalis living in the Gulf countries as an example. Thirty years ago, that place was the goose that laid the golden eggs. Somalis flocked to it in huge numbers. Abu Dhabi, Reyad and Kuwait rolled off the tongue as easily as Xamar, Kismayo or Hargeisa! Things are not as rosy as they used to be in the past, however, a quick visit to Dubai will reveal that Somalis are still trying to find jobs and settle in those countries. On the other hand, many Somalis who lived in those places and started witnessing the draconian tightening of rules and immigrations laws, upped and left as easily as they came. Some of them had lived there for over thirty years! So, should things change in the West as you predict, I’m sure Somalis will as easily move on to pastures new. The nomad spirit lives on. Talking of the nomad spirit, you’re also assuming that no more Somalis from home will be leaving and attempting to find their way into the West, Far East or Middle East. Only when that supply of fresh nomads ceases to be will the supply of money being sent home dry. Can you honestly say that either will happen? Your final question is very mischievous. I’ve already covered that subject on another thread. Feel free to respond to any points I’ve made there.

^^^^ Ignore the one-trick ponies, dear.

I don’t see how this topic is considered an intellectual debate! I also don’t see why we would need a men’s section! Like someone above said, men are free to roam in all the sections. We are MEN, we can go wherever we like. Nobody should limit us to one section or call it a man section. Women on the other hand, while allowed to venture out from time to time, can’t be “souraaf†and claim to have equal footing with us men. Of course, we have to placate them with the sweet words of equality and fairness but when being practical, they have to be hidden away in their own section (if it wasn’t for political correctness, I’d call it a kitchen). This might sound too odious but dress it up with the right words and expressions and it’s fairly acceptable to all ( even those in the “kitchenâ€). So, men, give the ladies some space.

Originally posted by ORGILAQE: Ngonge hard cash being sent home is fine but if unchanneled or properly planned it will simply become a waste!! As for the dreams well.......martin Luther King had a dream and has it been realised?,Nelson Mandela had a dream and has it been realised?,Gandhi had a dream and has it been realised?,and Finally our Beloved Prphet Muhammad (Pbuh) had a dream and it most certainly has been realised.So my brother there is nothing wrong about a dream,in fact a nation without a dream is a nation without hope!!! With dreams comes ambitions,drive,aim.Without any of those feelings it is impossible for them to become what they are capable of becoming.So brother dont put them down,just because those before them couldn't do it doesnt mean they can't.!!Be positive bro....be positive. I’m too old for the sweet sounds of your violin, saaxib. Spare me the evangelical speech please. The people you mention lived, breathed and witnessed the struggle. You and I are sitting in comfy office and typing away at a brand new keyboard. Our dreams are superficial to say the least. I’m not asking you to stop dreaming. What I’m asking is to stop the grand dreams. If you need to encourage this “generation†into taking part in reconstruction, then the most you should concentrate on is their money. Maybe I’m a born pessimist but I sincerely doubt that even 5% of Somalis on the outside will do much to help in the rebuilding of their country. On the other hand, I believe in people’s good will and it’s pointed out to them, many do their best to send, donate or give money. So, like I said, better concentrate on that issue rather than the wicked dream that we’ve been living for the past fifteen years. Saaxib, fifteen years is a long time. Those that were fifteen back then and were told to study and learn so as to help in the rebuilding of their country are thirty years of age now. How many of them do you see doing anything (other than the sending money part) to rebuild their country? I’m not concerned with the small number of people that do work and strive to better the state of the homeland, for those really don’t need anyone’s encouragement to do so. It seems to come from within and your words would be wasted on them. Can’t preach to the converted, can we now? As for the argument that the money being sent home will soon run out! I strongly disagree. History is proof of that. Somalis have been sending money home for hundreds of years (yes I said hundreds). The poverty of our nation did not start with the civil war. It has always been thus. There are countless 80-year-old Somalis who were born and bred in Arab and Western countries that still send money home. The idea that the young generation are changing and forgetting their country is not a new trend. This “dhaqan celis†fable has been bandied about for years! From purely historical precedents though, most of the young change track and go back to being Somali once they’re married and are in a position of responsibility. Rest assured that this is one well that’s unlikely to ever dry up.

Nice story, saaxib. Erm, carry on.

This dead horse of “reconstruction†has been bandied and flogged about for years now. However, by my calculations and in my own opinion, I really have not seen that many people willing, ready or able to do anything about it in the past. I doubt any of the future generations will either! What guarantees do any of the people outside of Somalia have of being welcomed back and given the power to create the climate for change and reconstruction? Why would those who lived under strife and war give up their hard earned positions that easily? What sort of “reconstruction†are we talking about here? To make a long story short as the saying goes, the only option open to the majority outside of Somalia proper is to continue doing what they’ve been always doing (before, during and hopefully after this civil war), send money home! This is all that those in there expect from you and this is the minimum you can do. All the other talk is nothing but dreams. A few might fulfil those dreams but the majority will not. The romanticism of it is nice, but playing it safe is even nicer. So, instead of getting the kids to chase that mirage of reconstruction, better encourage them to contribute hard cash. It’s the Somali way.

"We live in constant fear. We have very little rights, since people believe that there are no Christians in Somalia," said Peter Ahmed Abdi , leader of the Mogadishu Pentecostal Church, who is also chairman of the tiny Somali Christian community. I didn’t read any of the thread because I don’t find it interesting (no offence to the poster of course). However, the name of the church leader caught my eye! Peter Ahmed. Heh! Sounds like a movie star.

Wrong? With me? Erm, you lost me now. :confused: Is something the matter?