^^ Ok. Brother will do but if you ever change your avater, you'll have to stop this brother business.

^^ Adeer, adeer, call me ADEER! Bruv moxo ahaa? ma eslan bad aheed?

^^^^ Now I understand! Dee you deserve it really. Odey biiqay ayaad waxyalaha o qoraysa! But, honestly, I can understand how the admin can misinterpret your motives and meaning when you wrote my name in the way you did (which as you rightly stated, was the way I told you to pronounce it). Don’t expect an apology from the admin because he was merely doing his/her job here. Still, if you would be satisfied with an apology from me I’ll gladly give it (hoping you will not). :cool:

Seems as if I was as subtle as a sledgehammer there, eh? Orgi, it should be important to you, saaxib. There are such things as intellectual properties and copyrights you know. Some websites on the net would delete any article, piece or bit of news if the author (or poster) didn’t specify clearly where he got them from or provide a link. Many websites get sued for such behaviour because some guy posted something with no link whilst arguing that life is short! In any case, I was not “accusing†BOB of anything; I was merely teasing him into providing a link to the source of the story.

Edit: Message hopefully received loud and clear.

Where did you get this "news" from, saaxib? I see no link, no mention of any news outlets, nothing! Some people might accuse you of making the whole thing up, saaxib. Not I, of course, I completely trust you, Bob.

^^^^^A Southall resident with access to a PC? Wonder will never cease! As for the flags, they're usually the Pakistani national flags. It's not only Southall that suffers from this problem. Green Street in East London does too, so does Manchester's Wilmslow road! I’m not sure what’s the significance of waving a Pakistani flag on Eid day is! Still, I find the involvement of the British Muslim Council in such a trivial matter extremely puzzling.

I’ve watched him in his prime, saaxib. I know that he was a great player (not denying that at all). However, for me, Jay Jay is the best African player I’ve seen with a ball at his feet. For raw, god given skill, nobody comes close to Jay Jay. However, if we’re talking achievements, what cups they won and the like I’ll have to concede that the two guys you mentioned are way ahead. Still, David Beckham and Steven Gerrard can be argued to be great players! I rate neither. :cool:

Heh. Looks like you people have really been assimilated into the English way of thinking! Hark at you complaining about London transport! What next, London’s bad weather? One day, I’m going to really tell you about my experiences on London transport, one day... Don’t fret dawoco, at least that “big boned†woman was a human, you should try having your faced licked by a tramp’s dog in a full train carriage, dear.

^^^ You spoke too soon, saaxib. Don't you read the news? He'll never walk alone ( Costa del scouse, me son)

Aha! We’re talking better in terms of achievements here then? I assumed you were talking about ability and skill, saaxib. In that case, I choose Kanu

^^^ Heh. I see that you’re as cautious as me when it comes to making a choice between the ideas of Moxi-el- Din (Ibn Arabi) and Taqi-El-Din (Ibn Taymiyya)! For the time being, I’m forced to agree with the clarity of Sheikh El Islam and avoid the approach of Ibn Arabi (and the many others that agree with his principles). Still, maybe the more I read and learn about this particular subject, the more I’ll find myself moving towards their way of thinking! The TV channel I speak of is called Al Mostaqbal and, as far as I know, these debates are the only programs they seem to have on! The names of the programs (or debates) depend on the subjects they discuss on a particular evening. The guest list is usually very impressive! Intellectuals, scholars (All branches of Sunni and Shica), Arabic and philosophy professors and even political thinkers from all parts of the Arab world! (Apologies to the author for this slight hijacking of his topic). Carry on..

AYOUB, Yes, but what makes the elders in the West for instance your “leaders� Is it a hereditary privilege? Is it experience or just the fact that they’re old? The same applies to the people back home (by the way, I was not belittling them in anyway, my questions were genuine. I understand the structure but can never put it into words and that’s why I asked these questions). Originally posted by Ameenah: Apologies for my vagueness but the child I was referring was the national child, whom I feel might (with great effort) provide an alternative to the qabiil conflict. You were not vague at all. I understood your meaning but was only trying to tease you. Whatever ills the clan system embodies within itself, unless another economically competant system can be put in place, there is no point in trying to eliminate Qabyaalad. Somalis have no other effective system to replace with the one they have. Every sytem is for some people and serves a purpose. And human beings, like all other animals, are slaves to or can be dealt with efficiently through the provision or the refusal of the basic needs: food, shelter and clothing. If one can satisfy such needs for groups of people, one can (let alone shift allegience) create truth and reality. I agree. The Arabs of the Gulf States were fiercely into tribalism but once they found wealth and each man was able to fend for himself, tribes have been relegated to mere folklore and something to boast about (like owning a nice car or house). Yemen though is the closest example to Somalia. The tribes there still exist, still wield some power in government and parliament (cardboard parliament of course). However, nationality to them comes before tribe! This might be due to the huge efforts the government put into glorifying the unity of the country without demeaning or belittling the tribal concepts.

This is so because the masses can not apprehend with their intellect the mysteries of the Lord. Ibn Rushd mentions in his treatise Ùصل المقال the methodology of Islam as pertains to spiritual and intellectual instruction; he mentions the Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari in which the prophet, Peace be Upon Him, says "We, the prophets, have been commanded to adapt ourselves to the conditions of the people, and address them according to their intelligence." When the Gnostics try to remember, recollect, and reckon what they had witnessed during the state of "Al-Fanaa" or annihilation (the annihilation of all other than He), it becomes excruciatingly difficult for them to articulate in human language that which they had experienced. This is the reason why some Gnostics attempt to explain this phenemonon by employing metaphors. This business of the masses not apprehending sounds to me as if this is not a case of knowledge in the accepted everyday sense! We are talking some sort of revelation here, are we not? (Forgive the simplicity of the question by the way). Many, many years ago I tentatively delved into the sphere of Islamic philosophy and Sufism and was turned off by the language used doublespeak and, in parts, mixture of rationality and mysticism! I recently started watching the debates on the Al Mostaqbal channel (not sure if you’re aware of them). In these debates (which seems to be the only program on that channel), they have a group of intellectuals, professors and scholars discussing the different schools of thought in Islam. They seem to have an obsession with Ibn Arabi and Ibn Taymia in particular. On the strength of those debates and the little I read since, I find myself in agreement with Ibn Taymia’s opinions regarding such issues. Still, and like I said, I’ve only done very little reading on these subjects (whatever reading I did in the past is long forgotten). What puzzles me in your quote above is the mention of the prophet (csw)! Do these Gnostics claim to experience revelations similar to those the prophet’s had? Is this what’s known as being a perfect human (الانسان الكامل)? Is this a blessing or نعمه from the almighty bestowed upon them, and where does that leave them when judgment comes? Will they be judged with the masses or does having this “knowledge†give them some sort of immunity? How does this knowledge differ from having total Iman? (I beg your pardon for all these questions; I’ve acquired a strange fondness for question marks lately).

Here you go. Good luck with the script by the way. Is it a hobby of yours or is this script going to see the light in the form of a film? The things I do for you, people Edit: Soz! Didn't see the "English" bit there.

Neither was as good as Jay Jay Okosha (IMHO). Shame he always ended up with useless teams though.

^^ Would it be evil of us if we tried to induce a miscarriage?

Originally posted by Gediid: Wind There's no newspapaper or media outlet that can truely claim to be unbaised.Take the case of the Washington Post,a well respected newspaper but closely aligned with the liberal voice and the views of the Democratic Party while the Washington Times represents the views of the Republican party and the conservative base. As far as Somali newspaper are concerned I think the same is true,their views normally reflect the views of the area they are based and Jamhuuriya is one such case. The differences between the papers you quote the Somali papers is that the former try to advance a certain ideology while the latter’s motives are anyone’s guess!

Originally posted by Ameenah: quote:Qabyaalad or Qabiil is all the same in the Somali sense of the word and the two go hand in hand. Renouncing one will lead to the elimination of the other. Whilst we're @ it lets eliminate race and gender to rid us of the other friendly isms such as sexism and racism. On the real...Given time and national effort -I think we can one day revolutionise our politics so that it's not so dependent in qabiil... to eradicate the very existence of qabill is another matter entirely. However; so that we don't stall this thread..tell us your ideas Macalimuu... How do you purpose that we the Somalis undertake such a mammoth task of reconstructing our sociological makeup? What is the alternative and whose role is it to lead this revolution? I'm all ears...or eyes rather When you compare tribalism to sexism or racism, are you implying that people discriminate out of pure hatred and superiority? Do you think this is the real reason why tribalism is rife in Somalia? Is it really just a case of people looking down at everyone else and believing their tribe to be the best? Or is it a case of mistrust, paranoia and unfounded suspicions? I personally believe it to be the latter. For if it was the former, then truly, we do not have a chance in hell of correcting that predicament! The brother is right in saying that Qabiil and Qabyaalad are one and the same in the current Somali psyche! The difference is personal; when talking about one self’s actions then it’s Qabiil, but when talking about the actions of others it becomes Qabyaalad (i.e. Qabyaalad is something committed by other people). Of course, the correct definition of it should be the one that Baashi above has provided but that’s not the reality on the ground today, or is it? I agree with Baashi in that the cure for this ailment is in the introduction of justice for all. Equal justice, fair, unbiased and neutral! However, that’s easier said than done. In fact, going by the current climate of Somali politics it’s nigh on impossible to realise such a dream. This is because such a solution will have to be implemented from the top and trickle downwards. The pitfalls of such a solution are abundant and the chances of it completely collapsing are numerous too (all it would take is a simple whispering campaign for the paranoia to return and the whole thing to collapse). Though knowing one’s roots and lineage is impossible to abolish (today), it’s important to realise that one is a separate being from his father, grandfather and great grandfather. One is not a multi headed hydra! One is not the umpteenth limb of his great grandfather, one is only a descendent of that grandfather and one shares that claim with many others. These others, though “relatives†(depending on their proximity of course) only obligate the person to loyalty for religious and moral reasons. This loyalty however, should not extend beyond giving a helping hand and looking out for the economic welfare (or social should the necessity arise). Still, even then, one should be explicitly aware that one is not the tribe and the tribe is not one. These “acts†are done out of a sense of duty, belonging and social harmony but should not cancel out one’s own, separate, unique and individual identity. It’s this individuality, I believe, that will eventually relegate tribalism into what it essentially always have been; a method to state one’s roots and lineage, no more, no less! Only when we promote such individuality and encourage all to set, seek and pursue their own goals in Somalia will we be able to obliterate the ghost of Qabyaalad. It’s not always that your third cousin removed, who speaks on your behalf on all matters political, will do what’s right for YOU. It’s not always that what’s good for your Qabiil will be good for you! Because, while Qabiil is a convenient social cushion to fall back on when the going gets tough, there is a risk that this cushion might become too comfortable and reduce one to a dependant, needy and indolent being that relies on others to decide how his life and well being will pan out! Individuals are better prepared for taking risks; they (on the whole) would know what these risks entail and what would be at stake for them (personally). For a profit, gain or realisation of one’s goals, one might be prepared to overlook (or ignore) the suspicion, paranoia and mistrust associated with dealing with members of rival tribes (clans). One’s loss (should it occur) will be an individual loss and will not affect his tribe in any meaningful way (save the trivial ways of one-upmanship and losing face, etc). In such a case, and depending on the individual’s single-mindedness and the importance of his goals, such simple hiccups will not matter! The tribal approach on the other hand, limits one’s horizons, goals and ability to realise these goals. A collective tribe is always concerned with matters of face, honour, pride and superiority! A tribe is a small replica of a nation. Nations (Somali or otherwise) derive their togetherness and unity from their culture, history and character. The Americans brag about being the supreme world power, they highlight their kindness, strength, wealth and intelligence (though it’s fair to say that not all Americans are intelligent). The Brits talk about their history, the English language and their influence on the world. The French boast about their revolutionary traits, philosophy and secularism! All three believe in their own importance (over and above anyone else). The Jews believe in divine favour, the Muslims believe in being the best nation sent to man (which I don’t dispute). In short, groups (tribes or nations) have to have these unique “advantages†in order for individuals to respect the integrity of the group. When these “advantages†are questioned or face a risk from outsiders, the whole group is offended! Here you see, the face saving and self-glorification take precedence over progress! Who in his right mind, would confess to being a member of a humiliated group (tribe or nation)? In Somalia, it’s not practical to have these “nations†within a nation. A group is bound to always lose face, be humiliated or trampled on! This group will always try to retaliate in order to restore its self-worth! The nations within a nation will carry on being in this perpetual conflict! Easier to just get each group to declare a state of their own, some would say! But, things are not that simple! Within each tribe exist clans and within each clan exist sub-clans, the pride, self-worth and boasting is replicated all the way down to the smallest family. Could they all have their own state? I suppose that when the boundaries are clear and the ability of one clan to cut itself off from the rest, there might be a very strong argument for it to do so. But, that still does not mean it will be safe from the disease that’s haunting every other Somali tribe! Renouncing tribalism should not be done out of a sense of frustration and anger at the way it has ruined Somalia. Renouncing tribalism should be the goal of every individual that’s confident of his/her own ability and wants to pursue his own dreams, goals and targets. Like a child losing the umbilical cord and leaving the womb of his mother, individuals should attempt to shake off the shackles and try to breath on their own (some might fail but many wont). Mother will always be there, mother will always try to dictate things for you; in fact, mother has always fed you and comforted you. But now, now it’s time for one to mature and find one’s own way in the world.

^^^^Believe it or not, I don’t even know what tribe he comes from or what part of Somalia he hails from ( I know it’s the north but is that Somaliland or Puntland?). I like his music though. By the way your questions are just way too challenging and demanding. I know, saaxib, I know. I spent three nights thinking them up and mulling them over in my mind. Even as I was posting them, I was still asking myself “would the people of SOL be able to cope with such challenging questions? Is it too soon to unleash my full intellect on them?†Luckily, I remembered that this section of the site is bursting at the seams with wisdom, common sense and rationality! I knew you guys would easily answer my simple questions. So, quit teasing me now and lower yourself to at least giving them a passing glance.

I think clans are most effective in qurboland. They identify with each other, help each other and look after each other. What you need to is disassociate is the system from the followers. Clan-system is about lineage. Blood is thicker than water brother. You cant deny or denounce where you come from. What is wrong is not for me to claim I belong to a certain clan, but to discriminate against others for belonging to a different one. The latter is obviously ignorant and absurd. We need to realize the latter is a form of prejudice, and one that should not be tolerated in todays world. Clans shouldn’t extend to political parties and govern political driven decision, specially a political party that is an umbrella for several other clans. We should recognize qabiil for what it is – identification/lineage/proximity. The fault with Somalia/land is not clans -- its somalis/landers. Hi gorgeous. Not meaning to pick on you in anyway, shape or form. But, yours was one opinion too many, that’s all. The majority of those that replied to this thread followed the same line of reasoning. All are attempting to explain the importance of knowing one’s roots and talking about blood, water and all forms of liquid things! I don’t think the aim of this thread was to renounce that part of tribalism. It rather was interested in the negative aspect of tribalism and how that could be banished. So far, all of you only repeated the words of the author (in a better way). But, none of you is willing to look into the ways tribes’ function and the reasons people claim superiority, dominance and supremacy! Some of you stated that the tribal system should not be applied to Somali politics and that all the Somali ills are a result of the actions of the Somali people and not their tribes! Confusing to say the least! Are these tribes and clans made of Ethiopians then? Aren’t they Somali people and aren’t they fighting, plotting and scheming in order that their tribe (clan) is not left behind? Has this not always been the case?

Ridiculing my statement about the prophet [css] as blasphemous is rich coming from you. I rather drink a glass of hot oil than let the garbage you call posts sink into my mind. We all know that the prophet Muhammad [css] came from the formidable Quraysh tribe, the tribe that was blessed with guarding the city of Yathrib [Mecca] as wel as the keys to the Ka'bah. It was a fact that his tribe was the most noble among the Arab race. The fact that he was aware of it and proud of it, doesn't mean that he was arrogant. Your knowledge is limited, hence your foolish rantings. Heh. I realise that you were being playful here and wanted to mischievously mislead the brother here by mentioning “Yathrib†and then having the word (Mecca) in brackets, but that’s not fair ** sniggers ** not fair at all. Yathrib was the old name for Medina, not Mecca! As for the prophet and his pride in his tribe (was it the whole of Qureesh he was proud of or just the sub-clan of Bani Hashim by the way?), well, since you did not provide any proof of such a statement, it’s fair that people will question it, wouldn’t you say? I agree with you that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but you’re really not helping these brothers and sisters when all you do is give them tiny snippets of what you know, brother. Don’t be mean! educate them now. I notice that nobody dared to answer any of my questions by the way!

Originally posted by Duke_Valantino: I have to give it to my boy Nationalist.. Well said. I remember Siyad Barre tried to tell the people that we should move on from the clan system. We know what effect this had. Do you think Siyad was wrong in that wish or was he wrong in the way he attempted to fulfil that wish? I would be interested to read your views on the questions I asked Ayoub earlier in this thread. If they’re too much, then all I’m interested in is how does the clan system work? (It’s not a trick question, honest).

Originally posted by AYOUB_SHEIKH: quote:Originally posted by MsWord: I realized my Qabiil is part of me and I can't change which one I'm born into but neither can I change the fact that I'm somali. Religion aside I chose to be identified as a Somali first and my qabiil second. I don't see nothing wrong with that either. I can understand why some people are not comfortable with qabiil but not the ones who champion 'Somalism'. The easiest of explainig the way I see things is; moi first , then my brothers, cousins, qabiil, somalis. After that neighbouring 'cousins' of Somalis like Afars Muslims and so forth and so on.. The people in here who think otherwise need to explain to me why it's wrong to identify or see the 'qabiil bridge' between distant cousins and others Somalis? What makes 'Somalism' right and 'Qabiilism' wrong? Originally posted by Xoogsade: MsWord , I am tempted to ask if your resolution includes not to marry a man from another tribe then? Let me guess, you're one of who would marry from any tribe as long as it's Somali, right? That statement of yours throws up dozens of questions, saaxib! First of all, let me state that I see nothing wrong with identifying with tribes, being loyal to them or using them in the political system. Political parties in their essence are tribal in nature (though they might not have tribal connections). My questions, should you (or anyone else for that matter) care to answer them regard the “workings†of contemporary Somali tribes! When someone identifies, is proud of and loyal to a certain tribe, do they do this for only the superficial reason of lineage? Do these tribes have rigid structures? (Do they have identifiable leaders?) Other than mere duty, and lineage (though that’s a faint point) what obliges a person to remain loyal to his tribe? Would a tribal council (or leader) banish you for disloyalty? How is a person (or person’s) punished for misdemeanours within a tribe? Who’s the arbitrator? I ask these questions because this is the area of current Somali tribal behaviour that I find most puzzling! For instance, if we look at the Somaliland political system and the political parties within, I’m under the impression that these political parties work along tribal lines and loyalties. Of course, I understand that some tribes (clans) might throw their weight behind a certain party (though that might have more to do with a lack of suitable candidates of their own rather than strict adherence to “democratic†systems). However, let us leave the ruling party out of the picture for now and look at the main opposition party! Does the leader of that party, who as you and I know, is mostly supported and lionised by members of his clan, have total control over that clan? Is he, as the ancient tribal systems would say, the designated sheikh (or Sultan)? (I’m aware of the existence of other Sultans by the way). Likewise with the recent elections in Puntland, again, I’m no expert on the details of these “political†manoeuvrings. However, again, I’m under the impression that the candidates would have represented two different sides (clan based of course) of the overall population of that entity! You’re all free to correct me on these assumptions by the way. The same question regarding the Somaliland tribal dynamics applies here. I would not dream of going into the maze that is Southern Somalia and trying to even fathom how that conundrum is built, though I would assume that at it’s base the same structure existing in Somaliland and Puntland will be found too! Now, back to Ayoub with more child-like questions. If we assume that these tribes do have leaders that issue “laws†and control the conduct of their own tribes (a farfetched assumption might I add), how does their power extend to you and me when we don’t even reside in their realm? If on the other hand, we suppose that such leaders are mere representatives of the tribe (clan) and have no power over individuals in their own tribes, how do these individuals toe the line? Why? Now to the idea of being a “Somaliâ€! Can one be a Somali and endorse the concept of Qabiil at the same time? When the sister above says that she’s a “Somali†first and her tribe comes second (which you seem to have agreed with though you proceeded to contradict)! Does that mean that when the state clashes with your tribe, you’ll forsake your tribe for the bigger and better idea of the state? Will it be the other way round? I apologise if my questions seem tedious and simplistic, but in order to formulate a way to renounce “Qabiil†or even argue for its survival, one needs to understand how the whole thing functions!

^^ You have taken it upon yourself to be offended about nothing in particular and there is nothing I can do to ease your pain, saaxib! You be happy with these nonentities as long as they abide by the rules of the site, I on the other hand am only interested in reading the thoughts of those that might add something to my knowledge, intrigue me, force me to think or even make me smile. Rage away, brother.