Finally, someone took a break from the photos of the nice buildings and great “progress†to show us some of the misery and strife many of our brethren are going through. I’ve got to admit, those nice buildings and tennis courts always manage to lull me into a sense of contentment and thinking that Somalia is not all that bad. Topics such as this one are good reminders of what lays beneath the gloss. How the hell can one ease the suffering of such innocents? Originally posted by Nationalist: I've always condemned the policy of the Pland government to fully ignore the displaced refugees from the south in various IDP camps throughout Pland, such as these children from the Boqolka Bush refugee camp in Bosaso. It's a common fact that these refugees of mostly Bantu and Bay&Bakol descent are expected to leave Pland for their homelands in the south, when peace returns in the south, because the Pland government doesn't have the capacity to fully meet the needs of the Planders [better yet they never have build one school or hospital], let alone assist the well being of the refugees. There should be an NGO that provides recreation such as sports, art etc. to help these poor children get off the streets. Refugees in their own land, saaxib? NGOs? Heh. They never make them like used to anymore, man (nationalists I mean).

I wonder what political consequences such sick acts will have on Somalia’s situation! Will such news finally wake the international community from its stupor and spur them into giving military and economic aid to the current government! After all, the mention of terrorism, Islamic militants and backwards Islamic courts always make the ears of those in the West prick up and pay attention. Was this a political act by some hidden saboteurs? Was it a random act? Are these “Islamic†courts for real and to what end? Would such a travesty usher the beginning of the end for all those warlords and the unending anarchy? As for the Islam online article, the editor of that site covered a story narrated to him/her by a Somali. The fact that some Nomads on here have not heard of such practises does not mean these practises do not take place! To condemn the story out of hand without verifying it strikes me as somewhat thoughtless and unwise. What magnifies the thoughtlessness is the fact that this story was mentioned alongside the one we’re discussing right now! Then again, the desecrating of graves is a grave issue and the show of anger, disappointment and condemnation is the correct reaction to have. I suppose some excess anger had spilled over into the other topic!

AJ, I too heard of a similar story, saaxib. The one I heard was not real though. A friend made it up to see my reaction to such a scenario! He wanted to know if it’s an acceptable reaction for people to shrug and say “it’s the individual’s choice†or, if we as a society have a responsibility to condemn and distance ourselves from such behaviour! Of course, when he presented me with this scenario, I as a typical argumentative Somali, told him that he botched the whole story up and made it look like some idol gossip. What he should have really done was to present me with a direct, clear and unambiguous question concerning the idea of Muslim couples living together without being married! At which question, I would have shrugged and said “ arr soaaladan culos aan meelna na gaarseen mad naga daysid, saaxibâ€!

Originally posted by BOB: Ngonge, Sxb, if Diego hadn't won the World Cup with Argentina do you think people would even remember him? Football is all about trophies Sxb that is what fans like us would remember for a player and not for a few predictable tricks that anybody can do...Jay Jay Okocha is a One Trick Wonder...The StepOver while Abedi Pele had bundles of tricks and oh yes Abedi Pele was far better freekick taker than Jay Jay will ever be..Shall I Go On? here is Abedi Pele's Story http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/people/person.php?ID=164 Peace, Love & Unity. Please do, saaxib. I'm not convinced yet you see. PS Diego was a great player way before he won the world cup, saaxib. That, was only the icing on the cake.

^^^^ I think Caaqil's opposition is to the above map and the way it shows the spread of one clan within Somalia without showing a similar breakdown for the other clans! I trust that the brother has been a bit hasty with his conclusion. If he waits for a few days, I'm sure others would have furnished us with similar maps with "different" breakdowns. As great as this topic is, I fear that we will have to sift through a lot of rubbish to reach our final destination! So, fasten your seatbelts and have your senses of humour at the ready, people.

Why do I get the feeling that these "comebacks" were written by men?

Ngonge, If the country is peaceful and prosperous and everyone is well off financially but the political system is corrupt; If the leadership practices nepotism, favoritism, and justice becomes an institution that requires political support. If this happens in a tribal society and certain clans feel disenfranchised, it follows that malcontents feel compelled to stick together and protest against the injustice. What other recourse do they have if the justice system failed them and leadership is consolidating power and wealth at their expense? If the political system provides no other venue (like courts) that could be utilized to channel these grievances, then negative tribalism fills the vacuum and becomes the vehicle for change noh? I agree saaxib. This is what happened with the former regime and even if the current regime sincerely tries its best to uphold justice and fairness, people will still be suspicious and carry on toeing the tribal line! How many in Xamar though seemingly happy about the recent political settlements are still muttering about the president’s “closeness†to Puntland? How many in Somaliland think their president is merely a puppet of one of Somaliland’s sub-clans? How many believe the opposition leader of that entity will favour his own sub-clan if he ever managed to wrestle power from Ryaale? In the short to medium terms, I agree with you, justice has to be implemented by those at the top, with probably a very heavy campaign of positive propaganda. This will still be a risky business because of the entangled state of our tribes/clans and politics. However, it’s the only choice. We might manage to keep peace for a year or two (maybe even a decade or two). But, because we will still have these tribes and because every man with a grievance will always blame a whole clan instead of blaming his wrongdoer, the possibility of this house of cards collapsing any minute will forever stare us in the face! Our ultimate goal will have to be individuality and personal economic independence (this independence while it might not extend to the cronies of a president or a Minster, will at least (hopefully) reach members of their tribes). In such an atmosphere, if justice is not served, people can at least blame the president, his political party or the incompetent judiciary. All can be replaced without the whole state completely falling into anarchy again. If however, people insist on keeping the status que! Then that itself needs some reformation in order for justice to prevail. In my earlier questions in this thread, I asked about the structure of tribes and clans. The only person that replied to me was Ayuub! Even then, he didn’t seem sure of a solid existing structure. This confusing way of belonging to a tribe/clan/sub-clan/sub-sub-clan or even branch and not knowing the supposed leaders of all these groupings (at each stage). Yet vehemently declaring one’s total allegiance to each and every one of them (according to your ancestry of course) is not helpful at all! Neither is it conducive to the consistency of justice. When I say leaders, I mean arbitrators that can and should spread justice in their spheres of control. I believe that if tribalism is going to work, it will have to work along those lines. The “Odey†in your town (and I’m talking your adopted town) that you go to seek advice from, should also be able to issue an order that all those under him would follow blindly. He in turn should adhere to the orders of those above him. In this way, everyone will be accountable for all they do. Sadly, this is not what we have today. No “Odey†can force anyone to do what he (as a recognised and accepted “Caaqilâ€) deems correct! Accountability does not exist!

Bob, I have no idea what you’re on about, saaxib! This is a poem by a Palestinian poet. The title of it is “The Will of a Refugeeâ€. In it, the poet is giving his son a declaration and advice before death. He says (and I’m only translating it quickly to ease your paranoia): Tomorrow, my son, the twilight will engulf me; nothing remains of life but a drop The lamp once shone and burned; its wishes and hopes dried out until it suffocated So, when you clean up the dirt of my grave from your hands; and go feeling your way to your tomorrows Remember the will (advice) of a father under the sand One that was dispossessed of the dreams of old age and youth! We used to have a dwelling and we used to have a home And I paid for its salvage the greatest of sacrifices With these hands of mine I buried your brother in it without a “kafan“! If I cried once then it’s only because I had to bear the loss of both Two wounds in my side, a dead son and exile! A wasted boy and a subjugated motherland! They’ll try to negotiate with you about peace NEVER listen to their words Like a child being tricked with promises until he sleeps; NO peace and the shame will not leave your face! I believed them once and the tents became my home! And the source of my food was the charity of the generous! Oh! How it was thrown down to my fellow hungry refugees and me! Remember my son that their peace is trickery and their promised safety is an illusion; remember how they spread demolition and destruction in your homeland. PS Jilaato, there are others that can read Arabic on this site, dear. Still, that above translation (though it was done in haste and does the poem no justice) should give you and everyone else an idea about the poem. PPS This poem was written in the 1950s and its quite remarkable how farsighted and aware of his enemies this poet was. His name was Hashim Al Rifaaci (for anyone who might be interested). Eid Mubarak again.

( هاشم الرÙاعي ) ( وصية لاجئ ) أنا يا بني غدا سو٠يطويني الغسق لم يبق من ظل الحياة سوى رمق قد أشرق المصباح يوما Ùˆ احترق جÙت به اماله حتى اختنق Ùإذا Ù†Ùضت غبار قبري عن يدك Ùˆ مضيت تلتمس الطريق إلى غدك Ùاذكر وصية والد تحت التراب سلبوه امال الكهولة Ùˆ الشباب كان لنا دار Ùˆ كان لنا وطن Ùˆ بذلت ÙÙŠ انقاذه اغلى ثمن بيدي دÙنت أخيك Ùيه بلا ÙƒÙÙ† ان كنت يوما قد سكبت الادمعا Ùلانني حملت Ùقدانهما معا جرحان ÙÙŠ جنبي ثكل Ùˆ اغتراب ولد اضيع Ùˆ بلدة رهن العذاب سيحدثونك يا بني عن السلام إياك أن تصغي إلى هذا الكلام كالطÙÙ„ يخدع بالمنا حتى ينام لاسلم Ùˆ لا يجلو عن الوجه الرغام صدقتهم يوما Ùاوتني الخيام Ùˆ غدا طعامي من نوال المحسنين يلقى الي إلى الجياع الاجئين Ùسلامهم مكر Ùˆ أمنهم سراب نشرو الدمار على بلادك Ùˆ الخراب http://www.palestinianforum.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-2238.html

Eid Mubarak one and all.

Jacaylbaro, my fishing net was confiscated for the life time last July My heart bleeds for you, saaxib. Damn these women! They come into our lives and confiscate our fishing nets. In your case, it sounds like she had the bigger net too! Only 26 you say? Only married in July? Damn! She got you young, I bet you, and you can leave me a PM later if you want, that you’re getting a shirt (or an item of clothing) for your Birthday! We’ve all been there, saaxib. The first year is the hardest. After that, you get used to it and never complain about being dressed in pink jeans and loud green shirts. Commiserations, saaxib (on the Birthday)! Very bleated congratulations on the marriage. Welcome to the disobedient husbands club (I’m the vice chairman but don’t tell the wife). :cool:

Lander, in all three cases that you’ve cited tribalism is not (comparatively speaking in Iraq’s case) relevant or important as in the case of Somalia. For example, you mentioned the UAE and the difference between the different Emirates! It’s true that they have many tribes that exist to this day. The rulers of Abu Dhabi and Dubai for example both hail from the Bani Yas tribe (sub clans of this main tribe). They don’t put too much emphasis on that fact though, nor do many of the urbanites in the UAE. It is, like I already said, a source of historic pride and nostalgic heritage rather than a political tool. In Iraq, the religious divides are more apparent than the tribal distinctions. I was surprised to recently find that the current president of Iraq was the sheikh of a tribe that counts Sunni and Shica in its ranks! Still, as you can see with the constant news about Iraq (in the west and the Arab world), the main topic of discussion is the dangerous sectarian divides (Sunni, Shica and Kurds) rather than tribal unrest! Even with Syria, Hafiz Al Asad was an Alawi and the whole political tension is one of different “faith†groups rather than tribes. Yes, “families†rule these countries but if there is a revolution tomorrow and these “families†are put to the sword, the whole country is not likely to collapse because the average person in the street does not strongly identify with these families along tribal lines. This is why I asked all those questions at the start of this thread, saaxib. What compels someone to be loyal to a tribe? If everyone is economically independent and the country is (relatively speaking) peaceful, why would people toe the tribal line?

By Robert William Service: Oh happy he who cannot see With scientific eyes; Who does not know how flowers grow, And is not planet wise; Content to find with simple mind Joys as they are: To whom a rose is just a rose, A star--a star. It is not good, I deem, to brood On things beyond our ken; A rustic I would live and die, Aloof from learned men; And laugh and sing with zest of Spring In life's exultant scene,-- For vain my be philosophy, And what does meaning mean? I'm talking rot,--I'm really not As dumb as I pretend; But happiness, I dimly guess, Is what counts in the end. To educate is to dilate The nerves of pain: So let us give up books and live Like hinds again. The best of wisdom surely is To be not overwise; For may not thought be evil fraught, And truth less kind than lies? So let me praise the golden days I played a gay guitar, And deemed a rose was just a rose, A star--a star. Link

Talking of great speeches (not plagiarised ones by the way, naughty naughty boys). Here is Mark Antony’s from William Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, but first let me give you a quick introduction to this speech! Brutus and the conspirators had killed Caesar ( Et tu, Brute!). Brutus had given a great speech and managed to convince the mob that Caesar deserved to die because he was too ambitious and thought himself to be bigger than Rome! Antony, persuaded Brutus to let him talk to the crowd and conned him into believing he was on the side of the murderers. Antony gave the following speech (I’m sure you’ll recognise the first three words if not the whole speech): Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears; I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones; So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus Hath told you Caesar was ambitious: If it were so, it was a grievous fault, And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it. Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest-- For Brutus is an honourable man; So are they all, all honourable men-- Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral. He was my friend, faithful and just to me: But Brutus says he was ambitious; And Brutus is an honourable man. He hath brought many captives home to Rome Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill: Did this in Caesar seem ambitious? When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept: Ambition should be made of sterner stuff: Yet Brutus says he was ambitious; And Brutus is an honourable man. You all did see that on the Lupercal I thrice presented him a kingly crown, Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition? Yet Brutus says he was ambitious; And, sure, he is an honourable man. I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke, But here I am to speak what I do know. You all did love him once, not without cause: What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him? O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason. Bear with me; My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar, And I must pause till it come back to me. The whole play can be found here

What do you think of the "building" there, Northerner? ** Sniggers **

^^^ The shooting part was only added for dramatic effect. It was not a reflection on the character of those that enjoyed reading this book. You missed my point about the children’s stories. In these stories, people are happy with the endings because they’re aware of the fact that these stories are aimed at children and being daft rather than serious. The comparison I made was meant to reveal my opinion of this novel as being nothing better than a children’s story masquerading as something more profound. Like I said, I had no problem with the initial idea or theme of the book, my problem was with the way the author attempted to convey that idea. He left a lot to be desired. Every part of the story and every situation he “built†led back to the quest for personal legend. He did not work on the idea of alchemy that much, he dipped a toe into the ocean of religion and the love story within was easily forgotten! Good stories and novels usually contain unforgettable characters, ones that even if you don’t identify with, you will still remember. Think of Mr Darcy in Pride and Prejudice! Think of Pip in Great Expectations and crazy Miss Havisham! Think of mad Yousarrin in Catch 22 and Major Major! Remember Scarlet O’Hara and Rhett Butler (how about Ashley and Melanie)? In the great novels you see, even the smallest characters are remembered! This novel was all about Santiago but even our Shepard boy was not that memorable because the author was more interested in the personal legend angle and focused all his energy on making that point. The writer wanted the readers (and I’m being very generous to him here) to use their imagination and draw their own conclusions from the story. The only conclusion he was going to help us with (and didn’t he do just that) was with the personal legend part. The rest of the story was open to interpretation. The rest of the characters were left for us to ponder about! The story didn’t end with a whimper or a bang; it just ended!

It’s not the Freemasons we should worry about. It’s the frogs and lizards that should worry us. They sit there quietly croaking away and pretending to be dumb animals when all along they’re planning the destruction of man and taking over the world. Beware of frogs I tell you, beware of frogs! :mad:

Like many others, it didn’t take me long to read this story. I’ve already alluded to my reaction to the book in our earlier discussion but don’t mind repeating it here. When I first started reading this book, I was impressed with the initial idea! Here was an author that was going to take me into a world of mysticism, mystery and adventure. I was looking forward to being taken in an unreal and exciting journey. However, five or six pages in, I started to get restless. This was not the great book that it promised to be. This author was PREACHING! His whole style was patronizing! But I persevered and decided to suffer the annoying tone in exchange for a great story! The story, as the Nomads above already explained is about a boy who goes in search of his “personal legendâ€. THE END. The writer is not very fond of digression when writing stories. He sounds like a pushy parent trying to force their offspring to realise their dreams (or personal legend). They would use a story, an anecdote or a situation to prove that they’re giving you the best advice possible. I sat there like an annoyed child hoping that there is a point to this “lecture†other than “realising one’s personal legendâ€. Many people have written about this idea in a better and more interesting way. Even children’s tales such as Cinderella were more interesting. However, where Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and others were stories that didn’t take themselves seriously, one gets the impression that Paulo Coelho was very serious as he wrote this story! Even the ending of the story was a total disappointment (at least pumpkin-riding Cinderella got her prince). Santiago on the other hand, learnt things? (There goes that patronising tone again). When we were deciding to choose what book to discuss and somebody mentioned this book, I gave a short summary of what I thought. Having quickly scanned the book again, I’m still of the same idea. Paul Coelho had a thought about dreams and personal legends. He wasted two hundred pages attempting to tell us about this single idea! His characters were not believable enough and hastily constructed, his narration was not wholesome and his obsession with personal legends ruined the whole book. I got the impression that even as he finished writing this book; he still was not sure if he should keep it as a silly fable or expand on the philosophical and mystical themes! As it turned out, he did neither. He presented us with a half-cooked story and hoped that our imaginations will do the rest! This is a book that I would only recommend to an eight-year-old. Any person older than that age and still unaware of dreams, personal legends and the rest of that mumbo jumbo should, frankly, be SHOT.

These ideas are quite interesting and, despite some caution on my part, the way they’re presented does make total sense. Of course, the interchange between figurative speech, lateral, metaphoric, and actual tends to be slightly bewildering. Like a Sufi in a state of intoxication is unable to communicate his experiences to the masses adequately, I find that reading all of this has conjured up a multitude of questions in one’s mind, which one is truly struggling to express in a suitable manner! The details and descriptions that a Sufi would experience when in a state of annihilation (intoxication) are of no concern (for now). However, the steps leading to such a “nirvana†are of the utmost importance here (IMHO). Reading the exchanges above and conducting a hasty research on the topic at hand, I’m left with the impression that in order for one to reach such a high state of “existence†one need not only go through the process of purification! One also has to be favoured by the almighty! Now the puzzling question I have, and may Allah forgive me if I erred, is in the priority between purification and being chosen? Which would come first (this I ask as a mere mortal using his intellect and available information from the Quran and Sunna)? I’m of the belief that, for us mortals, the state of purification would come first. I don’t wish to patronize anyone with a repetition of a Muslim’s duties and the importance of total submission to Allah. However, my limited understanding of this topic would suggest that this “purification†process is just another name for “total submissionâ€! Up to this point at least, most people should be in agreement and I see no deviancy or innovative ideas (save for the semantics). My real questions arise when talking about a Sufi just before, during and after having been “immersed in sheer singularityâ€! The idea, for a novice, is astonishing! In this, I find myself agreeing with the detractors of the Sufis (and the Sufis themselves). This reminds me of Hayy ibn Yaqdan’s story (which I‘m recalling from memory and only read as a short work of fiction). In the story, Hayy is abandoned in an island as a baby and looked after by a female dear. The dear dies when he’s seven or eight years old and Hayy has to fend for himself in this isolated island. He spends most of his life amongst the animals and studies their behaviour and makeup. This study finally leads him to “discover†God. He later goes to another populated island and finds out that the people there follow a religion with signs and symbols that are no different to his own belief. He’s surprised at all these symbols and extra layers. He tries to reason with these people and explain his own ideas to them. They ignore him and refuse to listen. Rather than persisting with his pleading, he decides to leave them to it and return to his island! He reasons (as I understood) that it’s better to let the masses follow the “We hear and we obey†doctrine rather than attempting to illuminate them and lead them astray in the process! It’s not my intention to accuse any of the Sufis of being deviant, kaffirs (which by the way always astonishes me when people easily let such a grave accusation roll of their tongue on the strength of hear say and second hand information) or even lost sheep. I can’t do so because I don’t have enough knowledge to condemn them. For exactly the same reasons, one can’t also sing their praises or wish to join their ranks (yet). Still, the mystery of Sufi practises requires, for an ordinary person, a huge level of faith. Since one who has been in a state of intoxication can not adequately explain how and what it is they went through to normal people, these normal people will either have to take his word for it or not. Those that take his word for it on the strength of faith alone (not illumination) will likely accord him a higher level of reverence and might even fall into the trap of treating him as a lesser “godâ€! Those that don’t will consider him a mad man or, invariably, a disbeliever! It seems to me that without solid grounding in Islam to begin with one should not consider nor encourage others to follow Gnostic ideas. Those that have the basic knowledge (and basic here would mean “very substantial†in ordinary people’s eyes) would be sufficiently equipped to explore this side of Islam. But, the overwhelming majority, the masses; the man in the street as it were, will not and frankly, should not attempt to enter this complex world. For the consequences for most are not likely to be any illumination. These were but a few of the thoughts crossing my mind as I read this topic, if and when I succeed in articulating any of the rest in the form of statements or questions, I shall endeavour to return.

I agree on these ever-encroaching laws, saaxib. However, we’ve got to choose our battles carefully. The almighty works in mysterious ways as it’s often said. Fortunately for us, and through no sense of love or solidarity but rather one of preservation, we seem to have other religions on our side. The Muslims in the UK are not strong politically and have no visible representation in the media, however, the Jews and Christians do. We’ve already combined forces with those that follow the Jewish faith in the issue of Halal and Kosher meat! The fact that the animal lovers could not get their way is in no small measure down to Jewish lobbying (not Islamic). The recent complaints about the showing of Jerry Springer (The Opera) on the BBC have also marshalled the Christian hordes! Again, they have strong influences in the halls of power and their protest (on religious grounds) will prevent others ridiculing any faith (lucky we, eh?). Last month, the Catholic Pope complained about the atheists and their attempts to banish all signs of faith from Christmas. You and I might shrug and think that such calls have nothing to do with us (they’re following the wrong faith after all)! However, the argument that followed was one of faith (since the two sides are not all Christians) and the ability of people to freely practise their faith without interference from the state. Now I agree that there are plenty of people that hate Islam and would do all they can to suppress this “backwardâ€, “savage†and “aggressive†faith (see the quotation marks, simpletons? Let it go now). Still, and in the most part, in order for these people to get to Islam and Muslims they’ll have to also step on Christian and Jewish toes. This is not France, saaxib. France has always been a secular state that equally abhors all forms of religion (though as the socialist saying goes: Some people are more equal than others). The UK has always regarded itself as a Christian state (even now when it’s mostly secular). The Archbishop of Canterbury still has a strong voice when he condescends to use it. The board of deputies of British Jews and their Chief Rabbi are not people to trifle with (in the political sense of course). Most decisions that will encroach on the liberty and freedom of Muslims to practise their religion will also have an impact on other divine faiths. This, I believe, will not be allowed to take place. Of course we’ll be harassed, hassled and linked to all sorts of terror activities (their only outlet these days), but when it comes to making major decisions against us, I really can’t see it following the French model. Two different countries with differing ideologies you see.

^^^^^ A singer

If you are not "Accusing" me of fraud then I don't care what anybody else in here thinks of me because they don't matter to me as they mean nothing to me, in fact less than nothing! Calm down, Bob! This is not about what people think of you or even “explaining†yourself, saaxib. Like I already said, this is about following accepted cyber etiquette. I didn’t want to come across like a schoolteacher and TELL you that it’s WRONG to post information from other sites/ people without acknowledging the sources. I thought hinting at the idea would have been enough. It made me chuckle to watch you taking it seriously and proceed to fight shadows, saaxib. It is a fact of Internet life that many sites, news agencies and people do not approve of their material being taken without a link to their own site being posted and acknowledgment of the originator/author of the piece. You’ll be surprised (if you don’t know already) of the number of sites that were sued because of such lazy (or uninformed) acts. The least that some sites would do is to report the offenders to their own ISP and the service will be withdrawn. This is a serious matter, saaxib. Whether you explain yourself or don’t does not matter to me, however, in due time you will find that even the administrators of this site will start censoring posts with no links. It is the way things are these days. Copyrights and intellectual property are serious issues and should not be taken lightly. PS I can’t see past Jay Jay, man.

Northerner, The waving of another country’s flag would be regarded by the “natives†as being ungrateful or even a fifth column (considering the current state of tension between Islamic countries and the west)! Still, this in itself is of no concern to the police and the local council. What concerns both these authorities is the nature of Southall as an area and the different people with varying ethnic backgrounds that reside there. The Muslim youth do not only wave the flags (mainly Pakistani) flags to celebrate. There is obvious tension between the Indians (Hindu & Sikh) Southall and the Pakistani youth that go out of their way to celebrate in that area. The waving of the flags is not done discreetly or even innocently in most cases, it’s done to provoke. You mentioned the Hindu celebrations and the waving of the flags there, but in all of my time in the UK, I honestly cannot say I’ve ever witnessed celebrations on the scale our Muslim brothers make in “Muslim†areas. The police are only trying to keep the peace. Yes, it is a silly decision but the silly actions of the few led to such a draconian decision to be taken. I still disapprove of the involvement of the UK Muslim Council in this trivial matter. Though I did not elect them to their post, they do represent me and I’ve noticed lately that these people have belittled the idea of having an organisation that’s a voice for Muslims with their involvement with all manner of insignificant bother. :mad:

Take your time and think about it, Ms Cambo Northerner, we're building up to that, bear with us, saaxib.