Got nothing to do with the topic. But, I thought you might enjoy reading this. "United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 percent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong. A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam." -- Peter Grose, 'U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote,' The New York Times, Sept 4, 1967, page 2.

Going to sleep now, but thought I'll leave you this to chew on In mind the Somal are peculiar as in body. They are a people of most susceptible character, and withal uncommonly hard to please. They dislike the Arabs, fear and abhor the Turks, have a horror of Franks, and despise all other Asiatics who with them come under the general name of Hindi (Indians). The latter are abused on all occasions for cowardice, and a want of generosity, which has given rise to the following piquant epigram: “Ask not from the Hindi thy want: Impossible that the Hindi can be generous! Had there been one liberal man in El Hind, Allah had raised up a prophet in El Hind!†They have all the levity and instability of the Negro character; light-minded as the Abyssinians,—described by Gobat as constant in nothing but inconstancy,—soft, merry, and affectionate souls, they pass without any apparent transition into a state of fury, when they are capable of terrible atrocities. At Aden they appear happier than in their native country. There I have often seen a man clapping his hands and dancing, childlike, alone to relieve the exuberance of his spirits: here they become, as the Mongols and other pastoral people, a melancholy race, who will sit for hours upon a bank gazing at the moon, or croning some old ditty under the trees. This state is doubtless increased by the perpetual presence of danger and the uncertainty of life, which make them think of other things but dancing and singing. Much learning seems to make them mad; like the half-crazy Fakihs of the Sahara in Northern Africa, the Widad, or priest, is generally unfitted for the affairs of this world, and the Hafiz or Koran-reciter, is almost idiotic. As regards courage, they are no exception to the generality of savage races. They have none of the recklessness standing in lieu of creed which characterises the civilised man. In their great battles a score is considered a heavy loss; usually they will run after the fall of half a dozen: amongst a Kraal full of braves who boast a hundred murders, not a single maimed or wounded man will be seen, whereas in an Arabian camp half the male population will bear the marks of lead and steel. The bravest will shirk fighting if he has forgotten his shield: the sight of a lion and the sound of a gun elicit screams of terror, and their Kaum or forays much resemble the style of tactics rendered obsolete by the Great Turenne, when the tactician’s chief aim was not to fall in with his enemy. Yet they are by no means deficient in the wily valour of wild men: two or three will murder a sleeper bravely enough; and when the passions of rival tribes, between whom there has been a blood feud for ages, are violently excited, they will use with asperity the dagger and spear. Their massacres are fearful. In February, 1847, a small sept, the Ayyal Tunis, being expelled from Berberah, settled at the roadstead of Bulhar, where a few merchants, principally Indian and Arab, joined them. The men were in the habit of leaving their women and children, sick and aged, at the encampment inland, whilst, descending to the beach, they carried on their trade. One day, as they were thus employed, unsuspicious of danger, a foraging party of about 2500 Eesas attacked the camp: men, women, and children were indiscriminately put to the spear, and the plunderers returned to their villages in safety, laden with an immense amount of booty. At present, a man armed with a revolver would be a terror to the country; the day, however, will come when the matchlock will supersede the assegai, and then the harmless spearman in his strong mountains will become, like the Arab, a formidable foe. Travelling among the Bedouins, I found them kind and hospitable. A pinch of snuff or a handful of tobacco sufficed to win every heart, and a few yards of coarse cotton cloth supplied all our wants, I was petted like a child, forced to drink milk and to eat mutton; girls were offered to me in marriage; the people begged me to settle amongst them, to head their predatory expeditions, free them from lions, and kill their elephants; and often a man has exclaimed in pitying accents, “What hath brought thee, delicate as thou art, to sit with us on the cowhide in this cold under a tree?†Of course they were beggars, princes and paupers, lairds and loons, being all equally unfortunate; the Arabs have named the country Bilad Wa Issi,—the “Land of Give me Something;â€â€”but their wants were easily satisfied, and the open hand always made a friend. There is more in the e-book. First footsteps in East Africa - Sir Richard Burton

Methinks the lady doth protest too much :rolleyes:

X LoL...NO THANKS! I can just imagine what that picture might look like. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am curious, what do your boots represent? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you think they represent? Heh. Typical woman, she said no thanks and then asked "What do you think they represent?" War just tell her and be done with it. She NEEDS to know (I need to know too but I'm not important here).

Originally posted by Baashi: Seriously though, I didn’t take any offence of what’s said in this exchange. It was just a simple remainder of the fine points of civil discussion. You seemed to be too sure of yourself and brushed aside other opinions as ones held by half-wits. The half-wits are the writers of such articles, saaxib. When faced with their huge persuasion powers, I’m left with no choice but to call them cretins. Do I really sound that smug? Well, maybe I am! Wouldn’t say that I’m self-confident in every exchange or area of discussion. With this one however, the longer it went on, the more my confidence and conviction that people are going about it the wrong way strengthened! Time will tell if I’m right or wrong.

Heh. Surprisingly enough, he omitted the mention of any other political parties! Could it just be that he’s a supporter of these other parties? Would they do better if they were in government? It looks like this election issue is the one that will really prove if Somaliland is a workable idea or not! All the rest that went before was mere window dressing. I’m a cynic; I was born one and I’ll probably die one. As much as I want to suspend this habit for a bit and say that Somaliland will emerge wiser and stronger from this bottleneck, I find that I can’t! It gives me no pleasure to say so though, for Allah only knows what the alternatives are for a people that don’t want substitutes but can’t agree on their chosen goals!

Maradona was a great player before he came to Italy, saaxib. He played his first game for his country at the age of 16! He won the youth world cup! He won the league with Boca. He was voted South American player of the year TWICE! All that before he even joined Barca. They bought him for a world record fee (back then). Won the league and cup for them in his first season. People were calling for him to play in the 1978 world cup!! He played in the 82 world cup in Spain just as he joined Barca and got sent off (I watched that game LIVE). His best time was of course with Napoli but he was already a great player before they even bought him. I'm a LIVERPOOL fan of course, saaxib. Keegan? hmmmm..King Kenny..arrrgh..Barnes..hmmmm..jumpers for goal posts...haaaaa! You?

^^^ Apologies if you took my remarks as being snide or a putdown. I don’t shy away from making snide remarks when the need calls for it, saaxib. But, in all honesty, what I wrote above was written in the most sincere of spirits and not meant to offend you on this occasion or used as a dirty dig (on other occasions and depending on the subject of course, I’ll reserve the right to do so).

Time to kick things off a little methinks. Gather round Nomads, after eighty-four replies, I feel this thread is old enough to handle some real home truths. We needn’t hold back, needn’t toe the political correctness line. Here and now, we’re going to discuss the unbelievable situation of a GIRL leaving her town and going to LIVE with her “boyfriendâ€! Now I know that a number of you ganged up on good old Action Jackson and tried to give him a beating that even Rocky wasn’t able to dish out. However, your protestations are weak, your arguments are full of holes so much so that we’re drenched by the leakage, and your astonishment at his audacity is faker than a fake woman wearing fake fur! What exactly is this business of asking him to equally blame both (if blame is to be apportioned?). From whence does the idea of equal blame in Somali circles originate? What would you call a girl cohabiting with a man who is not her husband? What would you call the man himself? Enough questions (only because it gives my greatest fan a nosebleed)! The couple in question are Somali. As Somalis who are fond of gossip and chitchat, we are obliged to condemn them, curse them and lament the loss of the GIRL’s innocence. It’s our job; it’s what we do best. What’s with this sudden “understanding†trend? (Sorry, sorry, here is a tissue). Now, it’s either you agree that such a situation is ok, or you condemn it. If you say it’s ok, the discussion ends here. However, if you decide to condemn it the discussion is not likely to end anytime soon. If we decide to denounce such a situation, the girl will have to take the lion share of the blame. Here, and for the purposes of a wider discussion, the girl is not AJ’s neighbour. The girl is any girl that would move from her hometown to go and live with her “boyfriendâ€. We don’t have to mince our words, call it as you see it, people. It’s wrong, unacceptable and silly. The boy (any boys in a similar situation) is not a nice guy. But that’s all. The shock at his behaviour is not that great, he’s a boy (these little rascals get up to all sorts of mischief, plus this will prepare him for manhood). The girl on the other hand, runs the risk of being deflowered, tainted and tarnished! Has the woman no sense at all? (Hang in there; I’ll get the first Aid kit). A girl in such a situation, would break her parent’s hearts, she’ll soil the reputation of her own sisters and shame her brothers in the bargain. What was she thinking? (Somebody call an ambulance!). To make a long story short, and to save some more words (and questions) for future posts, I’ll conclude by saying that when blame is being dished out, that which will be sent the girl’s way will far outweigh the boy’s! Boy? What boy? (Somebody contact the family!). He’s probably a man now.

^^^You know what I like about "fish" girls when they speak Somali? (Other than the intoxicating "Wallahi"). I love to see the shock in their faces and hear the words “Alla beenta†when they hear something they don’t believe or agree with. *** Clears throat *** ** Puts on shocked look ** ** Screeches the words “Alla beenta†and rolls eyes ** PS I thought your real name in Arabic meant rusty hammer! Did you give me the wrong name? I bet the phone number was wrong too ** Ducks before the big guy attacks him ** PPS VR, despite his colloquial and coarse language, I find myself agreeing with my biggest fan on this site. Can’t really add anything better than what he said.

Get my name right, you damn sheep swallower! Yes, I’m having my morning tea break. Want some?

I’m still bewildered as to why would anyone be bothered by the “sensationalized†calls for justice that actually serve their purpose (keeping the story alive). Sometimes it seems as if some folks are more bothered by the “wailings†than the injustice. I’m not sure if you deliberately set out to miss the point that I’m making, saaxib. The injustice does not MATTER here. It’s mere chewing gum for you and me (and all these websites that are not accessed, read or seen by Somaliland officials or any world organisations). The story is kept alive but only, it seems, for immigrant Somali heads! Ones that have no influence nor affect any progress by harping on about the injustice. The sensationalising takes precedence over justice here. Your point is that as long as the story is in the public eye that’s a good thing. I agree to a certain extent. Where I part ways with you is in the style and feel of the protest. Moral panics have never been known to achieve anything but negative results. The ill thought, shortsighted and irresponsible sensationalising of this case does not serve the attainment of justice, it rather hinders it. These websites and authors are acting like the gutter press, and people (who really should know better) are lapping up this ineffective rhetoric. It’s been five month’s of this same unending wailing, was justice served? Were improvements made? Were they proportionate to the scale of disgust and shock? Do you believe that Amnesty International read one of these sensational reports and decided to come to the rescue of Zamzam? Saaxib, all along I’ve been using the word WAILING to refer to the articles I’ve read on this site. You (and others) either choose to misunderstand the meaning of the word on purpose or are too emotional to see the wood for the trees! When one reads an article that offers no solutions, suggests no ideas and only aims to create a highly charged atmosphere, one can only class that as wailing. This is the mentality of the mob! They wail and wail until they raise a mighty roar and when they’re done wailing, they either disperse or worse still, create a riot. This, instead of dealing with the original case of injustice only goes to create many more injustices. It’s trivial, worthless and absurd. Still, at the onset of any perceived injustice, wailing is the best method to get such an injustice in the public eye. However, once it IS in the public eye, the wailing should be sidelined and the actual work should begin. Why is the wailing still continuing? Where are the petitions that are put up for signing? Where are the articles suggesting plans of action? Where are the cool heads attempting to view the whole situation with an impartial eye (even if they fail)? If there are any, I’d be grateful to read about them, rather than reading the empty words of some unethical journalist or shortsighted oaf. Cries for justice, citing of international laws and mention of democracies is nothing but empty rhetoric when it comes to the Somaliland government or any Somali government for that matter. It’s unfair and quite cruel to try to convince the mob of the existence of such a thing. Governments always “talk the talk†but seldom “walk the walkâ€, so again, to just shout it loud enough and long enough expecting that it will miraculously take place is very naïve (to say the least). What’s needed is pressure, from within and without (pardon the stating of the obvious but it had to be done). This pressure, rather than being wasted on writing articles that cater for the simple minded, should be directed at organisations and governments that deal with, and have influence over the Somaliland administration. It should aim at institutions within Somaliland rather than readers in the Diaspora! Articles covering the issue should at least report on such progress, suggest more avenues for protest or simply give historical information on the case. Anything short of that is nothing but the usual wailing that we all seem to excel in. This was my final piece on this issue. If it does not make sense today, it will never make sense.

^^^^ Amnesty International's report on the 17th of December 2004 You all might want to read it and consider the prose, style and presentation of the report. Amnesty International, who is without a shadow of a doubt, the biggest and loudest weepers on this plant seemed to cover this story better than most. They’re covering facts. They’re questioning the ability of the judge, the lack of due process in Somaliland courts, the torture allegations, the lack of access to lawyers, the girl’s age and the suspect and unsubstantiated evidence. Compare and contrast this to the article above or any of the articles posted on this and any other Somali sites (for or against). My opposition has always been and will remain against the irresponsible point scoring and politicising of the issue. It is a real shame when one has to rely on second hand news from foreign sources as being the most accurate instead of trusting one’s own news resources. However, the blinkered attitudes of our fellow Somalis and the emotionally charged articles presented as some highbrow news can only be believed or trusted by a half-wit. I don’t set out to make any enemies or gain any friends here. Therefore, your judgments or reactions are of no concern to me. What I aim to do and have been trying to do for the past five months is move the discussion away from the pointless chest beating and unrealistic expectations, to its rightful place of cold reason and fair analysis. If we take amnesty international’s report as being accurate, I doubt that any sane person (one without a political agenda) will attempt to argue against the plight of this poor girl. There really does not seem to be much scope for discussion on those points. However, there is such a thing as scale! In all the coverage I’ve followed so far, I’m sad to say that balance has not been applied. Somaliland is a nascent democracy (though calling it a democracy would be stretching a point, IMHO). None of the demands of Amnesty International (they have an excuse they’re foreigners) are realistic enough! Talk of Justice, due process and impartiality in the same sense that they're applied in liberal democracies would be laughable if it were expected of any African country, never mind one that is not even recognised by anyone! Herein lies the crux of the matter. These articles, the complaints and the constant demands are mostly produced for the eyes of Somalis in the Diaspora! Somalis who unless they’ve been living under a rock for the past twenty years or so, should know better than to further muddy the waters by demanding the impossible! Here, those that were expected to be the cool heads, the partially detached, the knowledgeable and intellectual not only allowed themselves to be carried along in this indignant wave, they actually created one of their own complete with all the western jingles and paraphernalia! What does Mr Abdullahi Elmi hope to achieve by writing that article of his (I’m aware that he’s merely a member of the public and not a journalist. Not that it’s easy to tell the difference these days)? Is he trying to inform? Has he discovered a new piece of evidence that will guarantee the girl’s release? Is he attempting to shame the Somaliland administration into seeing the error of their ways? Is he conducting a through analysis of the case and pointing out with justifications the origins of this vendetta against Zamzam? (For it appears as such from where I’m sitting). Many others before him followed the same line of reasoning! In the article above, the author hinted that the reasons for the arrest and conviction of this girl might have something to do with the government of Somaliland trying to score some political goals against Puntland in regards to disputed territory! This, in all probabilities, might be true. The obvious question to ask him would be “if it’s true, what could YOU do about it?â€. What sort of reply do you think he’ll give (other than using profanities and stating that he knew all along how despicable that government and people were)? When all is said and done, his real reply would be “ there is nothing I could do other than froth at the mouth and write as many articles as I couldâ€. Who would this help though? It certainly will not help Zamzam in her fight to gain freedom. It definitely won’t help the delicate relations between Somalilanders and Puntlanders! It will only allow the author to naively let out some steam! Other than outright war, which is not something the Puntland government despite all it’s protestations and opposition to this case will be willing to take for the sake of one girl (unless it‘s politically beneficial of course). The only other avenue left in order for this girl to be released would be the efforts of the Somaliland citizens themselves! Here we come into the classic catch 22! At this point, I better reiterate the point I made earlier about Somaliland not being a true democracy in the strictest sense of the word. It’s people, though I’m sure many of them are nice and decent, are not typical specimens of democratic citizens that regard the virtues of justice, fairness and impartiality as sacred (nor for this matter are any other Somalis). Yes, some Somaliland citizens did rise up to help this girl and tried their best to secure her release. However, most others were busy standing up to and deflecting the Puntland “onslaught†and “propagandaâ€! Zamzam was 16 one minute and 21 the other (with all the other ages in between thrown in for good measure)! For every Puntland lie the Somalinad “defenders†countered with ten of their own! Both sides contributed to the creation of an electric atmosphere of which Zamzam was portrayed as a victim and a villain! Unfortunately for all of us, most of these articles came from western-based Somali sites. I don’t for a minute doubt the sincerity of the sympathy Puntland authors had for Zamzam, however I believe that most commentators let their emotions get the better of them rendering the object of their anger and frustration a bit part actor in this whole saga. I also don’t doubt the patriotism of the Somaliland authors but here too, they let their anger and misguided pride cloud their reason and forget importance of due process (regardless of any media frenzy). Sometimes and under the right circumstances, letting one’s emotions get the better of him does yield great results (see the recent Ukrainian elections or even the French revolution). Sometimes, being led by the mob is the safest place to be. However, in a situation like the one we have and after taking into account all the different variables, getting emotional when you’re 4000 miles away serves no purpose whatsoever and is rather foolish. Let us hope that the same people that thought up the “democracy†idea in Somaliland will finally realise what such an ideology entails and pressure that useless government into organising a new trial with a fair judge, due process and transparency. Should the trial prove the girl’s innocence let us hope she is compensated for her troubles, her abusers tried and she receives a full and complete apology from that government!

I was under the impression that QL (or at least the purpose of the thread) was to find a map showing the clan distribution within Somalia (i.e. who lived where). The percentages were merely a bonus that, in all honesty, I did not scrutinise long enough. Still, don’t you trust the CIA? :eek: Apologies if the map annoyed you, wind talker. How does IS 22% and DA 21% strike you? (A whole 1% is not something you could scoff at you know).

Originally posted by QUANTUM LEAP: Thanks Ngonge...though somehow there are Bantu groups that have been missed out on the 6 ethnicity of the somalis. I also didnt see Habar yonis and didnt get what Habar Taljaal is either. Is that another classification of malis? Btw how come the Bantu and the other minorities arent in the 6 groupings? The Bantu are probably included in the ethnic minorities bit (the one in blue). Habar Yonis are in the map and Habar Taljaal, if I were going to have a wild stab in the dark, would be the clan of that mutual friend of ours that we had a drink with the other week (wink, wink, nudge nudge).

^^^ I was perfectly happy to sit back and observe the contributions of others. But, now that you insisted I join in with efforts of my own, I hope you’re not disappointed with my meagre pickings, saaxib. The following is a CIA produced map. It's the most recent one I could find (2002). Edit: I had to remove the map and insert the URL instead (the map was too big and would have ruined the thread). Looks like a good map Source (more maps here) This site might also prove useful Another site that might be of some help Wikipedia Stanford This will do for now I hope.

^^^ What a shame! Well, my lunch hour is almost over. I’ll have to try and do some work for a bit, but if you ever change your mind (which you’ll most likely will), just leave me a message and tell me all about your great thoughts and whatever else irks you. Don’t think for a minute that I don’t appreciate your contributions or wouldn’t lend you a sympathetic ear, saaxib. Furthermore, I refuse to be deprived of the only goat sallower in my acquaintance. :mad:

Originally posted by ORGILAQE: I liked the guy‘s passion and lack of sense. Most of his arguments added to the comedy value of the site So Ngonge you think your s-h-i-t doesnt smell do you. Something tells me you’re expecting a genuine and detailed response to this rhetorical question of yours, saaxib! :rolleyes: Heh! It’s lunchtime, I’m free for the next hour or so and it’s cold outside. In short, your luck is in, let us play hide and seek and talk about the smell of excrement. Nay let us not. It’s very uncivilised and rude to use such language. Therefore, you leave me with no choice but to humbly request that the moderators remove such offensive material from the site and protect our innocent eyes from reading such filth (I’ll leave banning you to their esteemed discretion). PS I’ve got a blocked nose.

^^^ The only possible reply that anyone could give you would be “wait and seeâ€. For the purposes of this thread alone, I’ve adopted the Dr Pepper slogan, saaxib.

Heh. Rage on, people! At the start of this, I held back from participating on this thread because I was under the impression that protest threads were not allowed on this site! The appearance of a couple of moderators on it changed my mind. Like all the free speaking Nomads, I too HAVE to say my piece (buckle up, for it’s going to be a long piece). First of all, let us get nationalist’s situation out of the way. In this individual case (speaking as someone who was right in the thick of it) I personally have no problem with that particular Nomad being allowed back into the site. It was obvious that his outburst was out of character. Furthermore, he’s just a young boy (I believe there are witnesses to this fact). We might as well make allowances for young age and give our young brother a helping hand (I’ll personally volunteer my time and energy in giving him regular advice and a few words of wisdom every now and then. No, you don’t need to thank me). Now, we turn our attention to the bigger issue. The one regarding the reprieve for all the other agitators! What rational explanation is there to justify their return? Were their offences similar to nationalist’s little misdemeanour? If the logic being used here is one that says, “If one comes back they all come back†then I’d rather NONE came back at all! By now, I’ve probably managed to antagonise a large section of those reading this and any subsequent words I write will, almost certainly, fall on deaf ears, write them though I shall. To my few remaining readers (and those peeking behind indignantly covered faces), we’re presented with a choice between quality and generosity! Do we ask for the rabble-rousers to return and adversely affect the quality of the material being posted on the site, or do we leave them out in the cold, therefore if not improving the quality at least, we guarantee one source of nonsense has been blocked? Do we really need more plain people on the political section? Have a quick look at “The Birth Of A Homeless President†thread and read some of the very obvious virtual sabre-rattling and uncouth drivel masquerading as political discussion (wont dare call it analysis yet). It seems to me that instead of asking for people to be brought back we should really be asking for people to be sent out (expelled and expellees as it were). Ah! Was that the sound of a collective groan of protest reverberating through the net I hear? I expect that even the few that were reading this have long gone by now and I’m left with the odd masochist nodding in excitement and grinning widely! Nonetheless, I’ll still plough on and say my piece (which I’m free, at liberty and have a RIGHT to say). The quest here has to be one of quality. Quality posts (though these aren’t of the utmost importance) and quality replies (these are). Some wise souls on here have already shared a great secret with us (and I personally thank them for it). Apparently (and this really puts a new twist to the way I view the site now) most people have an AGENDA! (The informers didn’t say if this agenda was a hidden one or an obvious one, though I’d have to assume it must be hidden). You’re probably wondering why am I telling you about these hidden agendas and are getting restless now, bear with me, friend, bear with me (you’re all I have now that the others have gone). Politics is a game of wit, cunning, treachery and subtlety. These are the basic tools you need when entering the fray. It’s also a game that requires some prudence, patience and perseverance. These, while not traits that all would have, are ones that all should strive to attain in order to perfect one’s game (I’m calling it a game, friend since I have a slight inkling that you’re fond of games). The losers in this game are those that lack the basic characteristics! You need to mock rather than accuse, use wit rather than openly insult and be elegant instead of uncouth. You need to hint in place of pointing out, wink instead of wagging fingers and lose small battles for the sake of the big war! Are you still with me? Well done! Don’t nod off now I’m almost finished. In fact, all that remains to be said, and it’s nothing I have not already said, is that those that are banned if truth were told aren’t less sophisticated than those that remain here. Should they be brought back they will be in very good company! Unless, there is a miraculous change and all (banned Nomads and “safe†Nomads) start paying a little more attention to the contributions they make. Come on “boys†and “girlsâ€, sharpen up your cyber pencils, put on your thinking caps and try to join uncle NGONGE up in his lighthouse. You really need to see with your own eyes how grating, cringe worthy and nauseating it is to glance down at your squabbles from up here.

Religious knowledge! What a juicy title that is! From time to time the users of this site are exposed to topics they are not familiar with. When such topics are posted, some of us sometimes join the crowd and post our take on the subject at hand. Sometimes we may see the topic as being trivial one and treat the posts in it as mere words on the screen. Not all posts are that trivial however. Some posts convey feelings, others convey ideas, and some exhort us to change our views on certain things. The non-trivial posts such as the ones that discuss religious issues need not to be taken lightly. We must be careful on the topics related to religion in general and Islam in particular. In light of the recent topics, I noticed a problem that has to do with religious knowledge in relation to philosophy. I could be totally off the mark but it seems as if the difficult questions posted are subjected to reason first and then (depending on how reasonable the answer is) our faith or lack there of is justified. Why can’t one be satisfied with what the revealed knowledge has to say about the particular question? ** Lecture mode on ** Many atheists argue that faith alone is a poor substitute for “thoughtâ€! Many believers would also agree on that point (to a certain extent). I find myself agreeing with their arguments (with some qualifications of course). I can’t imagine many people believing in god with no prior introduction to religion, revelations or actual “trainingâ€! One might be born with the instinct to “believeâ€, however, one has to be familiar with a certain religion (Islam in our case) and its literature and rituals in order to hone that natural instinct. In order to “pick†the correct religion, one will have to apply some thought and reason to the whole thing. If not, one would have to answer the charge that one is only doing what his father and his grandfather before him did. Faith becomes a norm, tradition or culture rather than a real belief in the almighty! In the case of philosophers (though some would occasionally tie themselves in knots) contemplation is only used to supplement and strengthen faith (one would have thought). Where “thinkers†(and many others) fail, on this site at least, is in their elucidation and detailing of religious ideas! Many proceed from the assumption that most of their readers would understand the language used, the arguments put forward and the challenging rhetoric. Others only aim their words at those they expect to understand and disregard or pay little attention to the vast majority that don’t. This, I believe, is the reason why threads such as this one regularly start off! To initiate a religious discussion of any kind is a great idea that would (hopefully) allow others to contemplate a certain religious issue. However, if the author is unclear, ambiguous or is addressing an area that most are unfamiliar with, he/she runs the risk of leading people astray! Here, the accountability is on the author to ensure that his/her words are very clear and there are (as much as it’s possible) no opportunities to misinterpret, misapprehend or misread his words. It’s always worth remembering that not all readers have the same standard of religious knowledge. All can read books, access Islamic websites and listen to various lectures on a given topic. This is great, but it also, at times, facilitates and encourages sporadic knowledge. Simplicity of prose, clarity of words and occasional references to the building blocks of faith, though might seem tedious to many, are (IMHO) of the utmost importance when venturing into the sphere of religious discussion. Pardon the Christian expression, but all should be “singing from the same hymn sheetâ€. ** Lecture mode off **

^^^ Still didn't say what was all that uncle stuff all about, young man!

What the hell happened here! Seems the whole site is up in arms at the banning of nationalist! Heh. For all it’s worth, I liked the guy‘s passion and lack of sense. Most of his arguments added to the comedy value of the site. Still, I was surprised at his disproportionate outburst at our gentle teasing. In all honesty that eruption really didn’t upset me or make me wish him banned from the site. However, I think there is more to this story than that little banter about him being “a nationalistâ€! Can’t say I’ve had any run ins with him recently, so it must be one of the other two that got his goat! Originally posted by Duke_Valantino: This is not fair. The boy only reacted to their taunts. He was a kid up against old dudes old enough to be his father hurling clanist remarks and insluts against him and his uncle and this got to him. Heh. Duke, my dear, duke wont you ever quit your nonsense, saaxib? What on earth are you on about now? Can’t really say that I’ve read any clannish remarks on this thread and really have no idea where the man’s uncle comes into all of this! Is this some “fight†that spilled over from another thread? Calling a grown man a kid does him no favours either, saaxib. This is not some sort of nursery and “kids†have no business participating in political discussions. I’m sure nationalist himself will tell you clearly that he’s no kid (out of curiosity alone, is he, saaxib?) In any case, I’m going to miss nationalist’s funny posts and hope that we get another ban amnesty soon (though I believe the extra ill-thought protest will only strengthen the admin’s resolve).

Originally posted by SomeAlien: im not saying its right, bt did you ever think her home life was terrible to begin with, and thats why he offered her a home? i mean, you spoke to him, did he accually sound like he was getting his "girlfriend" to come over, or some girl he met online. i dont know, the fact that shes 19 and completely comfortable living with 2 strange men makes it sound, to me anyway, that she escaped something back home. of course it could be my over active imagination working again. For some reason, I don’t think AJ was really interested in the individual case of his neighbour and the girlfriend. I think it’s more the case of Somali morals in general(I said I think)

Heh! I hope you don’t get your wish and get banned, saaxib. Though I’m surprised you would call a 12-year-old girl a doqon! Where are you manners? :eek: On a serious note, what’s the source of this sudden outburst? I don’t see anyone in here dishing out anything other than the usual stuff that you’re used to! Is everything ok? (My alarm is genuine though as you already know, I normally don’t take anything you say too seriously). PS How does the tribal system work? (you never replied the first time you know).