TRM: My reply was to these questions.. Should Israel be a nation? What is your view on this issue? Should Israel be allowed to occupy a territory and disperse its native population in the name of divine right, or religous persecution? Everything else is still open for discussion.

You asked this question ten years too late, my friend. Part of the Oslo agreement of 1993 was the fact that the PLO recognised the state of Israel and that state recognised the PLO. Everything else was and still is up for discussion. As for the question about anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, well, that’s a tough one. How many people know the difference between the two? How many people regard all Jews as Zionists, etc?

North: At this moment in time, which for practical purposes also means for good (if you follow my meaning). My problem with the government is not one that has to do with corruption, saaxib. I personally don’t think the other opposition parties are any better than the president’s boys. They’re all as ineffectual as each other really. My opposition to them is in their failure to connect Somaliland together other than by the tired and delicate plot of colonialism and past grievances. It’s why you and many others are proud to declare that you hail from such and such city in Somaliland but hardly seem fussed about the actual nation! The question that most Southerners keep asking about Somaliland has never been adequately answered (the question of course is: what makes Somaliland different to any other part of the Somali Republic?), I’m sure you already heard all the answers to this question. I need not repeat them here. It’s obvious that you’re, like me, unconvinced by them. My own answer of course is TIME. This is why Somaliland is different now and will stay different. The passage of time is slowly creating a chasm between the two countries. One that I don’t believe will be bridged in the near future. Like you, when I speak to any Somali, I really don’t see him as being anything different from me. He is my countryman! However, pragmatism forces me to endorse and encourage the idea of Somaliland! After 14 years of convincing the old ladies of Borama, children of Burco and boys of Hargeisa that Somaliland is different, independent and sovereign I would not want to disappoint all these people by saying that all such things were lies and that Somalia, we recently discovered, is the better option for all concerned! Of course, even if we do convince them to abandon this ‘crazy’ idea of Somaliland and re-embrace Somalia, what guarantees do we have that the next time Somalia has any problems, the Somalilanders will not seek secession and independence? The few days after the independence from the British when Somaliland was a free nation, are still being used as a reason for the existence of modern day Somaliland, wouldn’t future Somalilanders (in the event that they reunite with Somalia) have a bigger reason and a more significant one when they cite the 14 years of self rule as the reason for any future secession? For all intents and purposes, in my humble opinion at least, going back is really not a viable option. So, what should one do? I hear you ask! Wave the flag, saaxib, wave the flag. But, while you do so, make sure you annoy the hell out of your fellow flag-wavers by repeating the question ‘why Somaliland?’ PS Welcome back Gadiid. Shush! Sniff the air, saaxib! Sniff again! Do you smell her familiar perfume? I bet she’s going to post a reply any minute now asking about your holiday! :rolleyes:

^ [big Grin] Who knew you'd feel directly targeted by this small appeal? well cuzo I can't say that I regret you feeling personally targeted; predefined you say? throwing around some of your own assumptions ain't ya.. I'll tell you as much as I told Ngonge, this is not the place for such a discussion and another thread would be more appropriate. Defining nationality should be a rather interesting topic, one that could benefit from your historical/political knowledge. So come out and drop this "lurker" business you’re only at 200 some odd posts [Wink] . I don’t get you, saaxib! Why is this not the place for a discussion on such issues? Do they not relate to Somaliland? Are we not celebrating, commemorating and remembering the day that Somaliland declared its independence again? What better place and time to discuss the issues of identity, ideology and intellectual progress? Why do you keep dodging these (IMO) fair questions? Do you think them unimportant? Whenever I comment on any Somaliland issue, and I don’t believe in taking any prisoners when engaging in such discussions, you usually accuse me of either whinging, sitting on the fence or being indifferent! Yes, I’m very indifferent to artificial shows of emotion. I don’t just wave flags, go on demonstrations or cry about injustices without knowing why I’m doing all of this or if my fellow flag wavers, wailers and demonstrators know! I would like to know WHY, saaxib. Even if you say that you don’t know, that you trust some sort of inner feeling that you have, I’d be at least happy with your reply and know that if nothing else, you will now start thinking (grudgingly perhaps) of why you believe in the notion of Somaliland. When I get dismissive replies, accusations of indifference, replies that only amount to the stubborn phrase ‘because we say so’, I wonder about the strength of your belief. Do you follow? Or are you going to tell me to take my words to a new thread again? PS Lest you mistake my words (or at least the undertones) as a tacit support for the Somali republic, let me delight you with the fact that I’m now, in my mind at least, almost certain (as much as any of us can be certain of anything in this life) that Somaliland and Somalia do not belong together. Ame, Mr B has his own confused agenda, dear. It should not be confsued with my own confused agenda or we'll all be confused.

عليك الله يا زول..دا كلام دا؟ شنو مسلم و مش مسلم يازول؟ ام درمان تكاسيه؟ ااال٠وااجيها On a serious note, the word Zool, when used by the people of Sudan is a normal everyday word such as ‘warya’. There is nothing offensive or racist about the word. However, in some parts of the Arabian Gulf and with some ignorant people there (people that exist everywhere), the word is often used as a form of putdown and insult. Some people use it for the purposes of being racist. But these are a very small minority.

Ngonge, Seems you’ve highlited a vague blue print for political discourse between two sides and left out one important ingredient, being your own take on the various issues. I’ve read some of your grievances with respect to Somaliland over many threads, but it seems to me (if I should be bold enough to presume here) that you don’t clearly express your view point on Somaliland. Granted on doesn’t necessearilly have to have a clearly defined stance, but your objections often seem how should I say…all over the place? So why don’t you start us off with your single most fundamental objection/grievance/criticism and we’ll take it from there. p.s. glad to see you've taken your calacaal out of the may 18th threads Heh. Lander, saaxib it seems that you’re just looking for a quarrel now. I think I’ve expressed my thoughts, impressions and ideas of Somaliland very clearly on this, the 18th of May and many previous posts. If there is anything that you don’t get in all the comments I’ve posted, please feel free to ask and I’ll do my best to answer, saaxib.

Welcome back, Duke. This section has been dull lately without your contributions, saaxib (not that I agree with ANY of them of course). Glad to have you back. As for the topic, you've got to admit that things are nicely hotting up. The longer they carry on as they are, the better for the Somali people methinks.

Very impressive. However, and without taking away from this lady’s brilliance, I’d like you all to listen to this guy. Not bad for someone speaking a foreign tongue. What? What? PS Couldn’t find a clip of the incumbent president.

Sometimes, after reading a particular article or having a political discussion with a fellow Somali (Somalilander), I’m left confused, numb and melancholic! The approach of Somaliland’s independence celebrations and the events of the recent past in Somalia (South, as a friend of mine likes to call it), have contributed to an increase in the sense of despair to which I alluded shortly. This thread is another depressing example. First of all, it’s only fair that one should deal with the initiator of the thread who, oddly enough, is not a citizen of Somaliland! This fellow is in fact an opponent of Somaliland (someone opposing the existence of that entity as opposed to being someone who is an enemy of it). Knowing this fact and reading the supporting confession he penned on these pages about his intention originating out of a sense of mischief, one is, seemingly, in no doubt about this Nomad’s motives. Or is one? Was it really a case of rattling a few Somaliland cages? Was it a meaningless attempt to light the cyber touch-paper then sit back and enjoy the reaction? One doubts if such was the case! Indeed, one suspects such an action to be the result, and reinforcement of an intricate political belief! Such a belief is not limited to our current guinea pig alone. Sadly, such a principle is prevalent in all walks of Somali life (nor is it the exclusive domain of Somalis alone might I add). Lest wind-talker feel lonesome, victimised or singled-out for categorization, let me in the name of political solidarity and shared principles, bring other opponents of Somaliland into this illogical equation. What most the opponents of Somaliland have in common is their refusal to acknowledge or accept the political choice Somaliland had made. This refusal, I should add, is neither absurd nor offensive. Here though, is where the similarity (for most of them) ends. They have their own disagreements, struggles and, some would say, hatred towards each other. The theme of the article above is habitually replicated in their own backyards, yet, because the blinkers are well and truly on, they fail to see them or refuse to! In their eyes, disagreements in Somaliland will herald the collapse of that nation! While, laughably, disagreements in Somalia are possible to solve (Somalia here would include Puntland, in case the optimistic amongst us start looking further south)! In light of this, should one take any of their arguments seriously? For at best, one can conclude that they’re deluding themselves by the use of such blinkered arguments and, at worst, one can consider them to be hypocritical! Be that as it may, I find myself in fact agreeing with Wind-talker (to a certain extent of course). Though I’m loath, disinclined and reluctant to use a common cliché, I think that the expression “even a broken clock is correct twice a day†will save me the hassle of having to explain why I chose to declare my agreement with this Nomad! Now it’s time to address the article above and some of the Somaliland reactions to it. But, again, let me have a final shot at Wind-talker before I continue describing the reactions of the Somalilanders (I like the guy - honestly). It’s not that Wind-talker is a genius, a reader of people or (probably) an expert on Somaliland affairs that I agree with him. It’s only because the Borama story has an element of truth in it and that his anticipation of the textbook Somaliland reactions was, on the whole, also true. Both cases, are not surprising presumptions even for a Wind-talker. I’m uncomfortable with the argument that the article in question, the opinions expressed and their author are isolated incidents in the Somaliland mindset. I fear that by using such a lame excuse, many Somalilanders are dodging the issues and refusing to deal with the unreasonable elements in their midst. I doubt that Farah Ali Jama invented all of the accusations that he levels at the people of Borama! I rather suspect that such accusations have been invented by others (stay with me now and don’t start assuming that I’m not talking about Somalilanders). I have a hunch that a sizeable section of non-Borama residents (work out the tribal connotations if you will) share some (if not all) of the views of Mr Jama! It’s possible that not all are as idiotic in their accusations or offensiveness, but it’s also plausible that many hold such anger and grievances. Here, sadly, the tired allegation of Somaliland being a one-clan-state gains some semblance of credence. In addition, having read some of the replies of few Boramawis (for lack of another description), it appears that they’re by no means harmless victims of Mr Jama’s gibberish, some in fact produced equal (if not better) nonsense in reply! Again, in their emotionally ridden replies (on the original website) they too seemed to give the idea of One-Clan-State some credibility! It is of course not a one-clan-state; however, sometimes the perception is stronger than reality! Here, Mr Jama, Wind-talker, the opponents of Somaliland and the die-hard defenders of Somaliland are all in total agreement (even though most don’t know it). They all choose to reside in their own make-believe little worlds than face the harsh reality of the real one! It’s a shame that such a badly written, badly argued and badly intended article should form the basis for a discussion about the Somali (might as well widen the net) way of thinking. However, in the absence of any softer (on the eye at least) alternatives, we might as well use Mr Jama’s rough cardboard as a canvas for our (should really say mine but I’m magnanimous enough to let you share the glory) masterpiece. Despite all evidence to the contrary, let me assure all the readers that it is possible to be passionate about one’s cause while preserving one’s intellectual honesty. Sentimentally and emotion are great at eradicating despair, fuelling energy and strengthening conviction. However, if left unchecked, they can also influence beliefs, erode on principles and corrupt one’s morals. This is not to say that people do not let their emotions get the better of them, after all, that’s the essence of being human. Nevertheless, one needs to know, acknowledge and accept that such occurrences take place. One needs to admit to having such a weakness. If you’re a Somali Republic proponent and are against Somaliland’s goals, come forth with your opposition, present your arguments and try to win converts. But don’t risk your own integrity to achieve that goal. Likewise if you’re a Somalilander! Furthermore, and because the article highlighted divisions in Somaliland, if you are a Somalilander, is it not time you thought long and hard about such divisions? Their origins? Ways to eradicate them? The way forward, etc? Time is really running out. Bragging about buildings, mountains, ‘democratic’ progress and the million other secondary issues has reached saturation point. It’s really time to deal with the issue of nationhood, coin new common goals, ideas and perceptions. It’s time to glorify Somaliland’s own heroes, historical symbols, unique traditions (invent some if you have none) and habits. If all that exists, it’s time that the attention of people like Mr Jama is fully focused on spreading and cementing such issues. These are the things that bind people together, not democratic processes or artificial borders.

Mr. Jama A. Farah has always written such senseless drivel. The difference is that today, it was about Borama! Need I repeat my argument about the Somali attitude? Wind talker, what site did you get this article from? What foolish editor allowed such claptrap to be posted to the masses? Again, I despair. :confused:

Originally posted by rayaana: Nice poem but what are you trying to clarify? Ngonge if there was such a marriage in the somali community, there would be histeria. Either they love each other much or they are seperated, no in between at first. But down the trakc of 40 years of marriage you will see odaygii awooga aha oo qalanjo yaro 15 ah guursanaya and his valuable long time asset is gone decaying in price and interest and walaahi most of the time i blame the women! Why the pessimism, walal? You really think most Somali marriages are unworkable? I can be cynical all I want (I have a doctor’s note). But, where does such cynicism come from for someone so young? PS -I’m assuming you’re young -I’m assuming you’re single

Liverpool allowed to defend the title Sorry boys

If you blink you'll miss it

Congrats and best of luck saaaxib

^^^ Ah! The imaginings of youth, the innocence, and the assumptions are truly astounding! One remembers the good old days when one was as disparaging and unbending as some of the posters above. Those were the good old days. One was full of vigour back then and no amount of reason or sprinklings of logic could change one’s predetermined notions of what a marriage should be! Now that the youth is gone and the slowness of old age has taken root, one is too sluggish and frail to form any such notions. Now that the vigour is spent and the bustle of married responsibility set-in, one is too distracted to argue back. Marriage Then Almitra spoke again and said, 'And what of Marriage, master?' And he answered saying: You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore. You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days. Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God. But let there be spaces in your togetherness, And let the winds of the heavens dance between you. Love one another but make not a bond of love: Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls. Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup. Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf. Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone, Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music. Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping. For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts. And stand together, yet not too near together: For the pillars of the temple stand apart, And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow. Kahlil Gibran Source

Originally posted by Amethyst: NGONGE , serves you right for expecting to be served! Cooking is a speciality field like everything else...those who wish to cook, should. Others shouldnt be forced based on gender! You can't swim against the tide, dear. Nobody gets forced but they're expected to know how to cook. If they don't know, the disappointment is immense. Women, don’t be a disappointment, learn how to cook. PS I will not tar Ms Ameenah Obseyewith the same brush though. It's very obvious that she CAN cook.

Even though Recipes was removed, I still think it should form a considerable part of the women’s section. I have been to many houses and was invited to countless dinners. I know what I’m talking about here. The young ladies of today (he’s looking at you Phanta) can’t cook and won’t cook! When they want to give you sanoonad(sp?) they give you maraaq! When they want to give you maraaq they instead give you faraaxal in a plate! Surprisingly enough, these days, many young boys are better cooks than the girls. So, let us not dismiss the Recipes that easily.

^^^ Warya! Are you going? :eek: How did you manage it? PS I'm not even going to ask you about how you found those hard to find tickets.

Ingredients: 120 lbs Somali meat 1 meddling Onion 1 One Women’s forum 1 One long night 1 Silly tag ½ cup of feminism A pinch of salt I agree, Phanta. This is not a good recipe.

^^ The woman below is mad. Look! She's talking to herself again.

^^^^ Someone upset you? :eek: Don't make any rash decisions now, let us talk about it first.

I got all six first time. That was ten years ago. Just imagine, if I was a genius then, what am I now? PS This is no windup. I think it has something to do with English not being our native language. Our brain processes every last letter (or mine at least does, don't know abut you, average people). :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Farxan: Ok, we all agree there are some somalis who are lost from both sex,but one thing needed to be addressed here,One a guys is lost, there is a chance for him to retreat,and go back. How many guys who were hopeless and were example of losers, changed,went back, married and now contributing to the society, while, when a girl is lost, there is no turnin back,and this is scary. The problem is somali commnty don't accept girls who crossed the line. So if u as girl are doing wat is not the norm of islamic and somali culture, and you are doing this cuz men are also doing it,then you will only be the victim. and my final advice, there is no gender competition,this is MAN'S WORLD. From personal observations, I can’t say that I agree with the argument that the Somali community does not accept girls that cross the line. Not nowadays at least! Oh, we’ll sneer, mock and get on our high horses about them, but we’ll all always take them back and treat them as we would treat any normal Somali girl. This is also the same with the boys. Thieves, drunks and drug addicts happily reside amongst us. We dislike their habits, turn our noses up at their decay but never cut them off. With us you see, the argument about bad apples does not hold true. If we see a bad apple in the box, we don’t remove it, we argue for its right to stay in the box like all the other apples and blame an orange and banana conspiracy for the whole thing! Life would be so much easier if we could karbaash all those wayward boys and girls. Karbaash is the only solution. :mad:

In the absence of any verifiable historical data, most the replies about whether Somalis are Africans or Arabs become plain speculation and guesswork. Thus, every person that devises a theory on the origins of Somalis does so by the use of selective examples or evidence to prove his/her point. Haddad above is bringing forward a plausible and persuasive argument in answer to the question posed by the thread originator. Arabic speakers are Arabs (I tend to agree with him but on the condition that these Arabic speakers choose to regard themselves as Arabs). Soon, another Nomad will come forth with an opposing theory accompanied by more credible evidence proving that Somalis are really Africans and not Arabs (e.g. they’re black, Somalia is situated in Africa, Somalis have some African habits and traits, etc). I’ll probably find myself bowled over and also agree (in part) to this theory too. Of course, both are nothing but theories. The truth about the origin of Somalis, what people should they belong to (other than being Somalis, for being Somali is not enough it seems), the truth really, is that Somalis are and should belong to the Indian subcontinent! My own research has pinpointed our origins to that part of the world (Bangladesh to be precise). Contrary to what many believe, Somalis with their soft hair, strange complexion and thin frames do not resemble Africans in anyway (nor do they look like Arabs). We look like our Bangladeshi brethren. We dress like our Bangladeshi brethren. We share the same religion as our Bangladeshi brethren. We share the same disasters that our Bangladeshi brethren suffer (drought, flooding, sick cattle, etc). Our link to the Indian subcontinent is so strong even the dreadful Tsunami managed to reach our shores! Doesn’t this little beauty look like a Somali girl?